The American Dream…..is a Lie? Kelly & Tabitha Kapic

When we say like theology matters and is practical, we're not saying you actually need to be perfect. The good theology is you show your kids, I need to ask for forgiveness to say, I don't know. You're to let the kids see you begging God for things, you wrestling with God for things. That's actually good theology.

Theology is not about giving all the right answers because we don't always have them. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com.

This is Family Life Today. So do you know what my favorite seminary class was? Communication. Yeah, sort of what we do now.

I don't know. I should have done better in that class. I should have paid more attention. I loved that class.

You did? My favorite probably was Old Testament. Old Testament Survey. With Walter Kaiser. Yeah, he was good.

What was yours? Theology. I had J.P. Moreland, who many people might recognize that name now. He was a young prophet at the time, working on his PhD at USC. We were an hour away in San Bernardino, but he taught theology in a way that expanded my mind. I remember thinking, I do not even know how to think about God, until taking that class like, this is really critical.

How you view and understand the attributes, who God is. Okay, let me ask you this. We have a guest over here. Wait, wait, wait. I want to ask you one more question. Before you went to seminary, would you have considered yourself a theologian? No. Me neither.

No, those are the brainiacs. I would still say I went to seminary. I'd still say I'm not. But, we're going to talk about something today. We're going to transition, well done. You guys have been doing this for a while?

Kelly Kapic is sitting there, that's the voice you're hearing. Who is, you are a theologian. Yes. You teach. Officially.

At a school. I make a living at it. Yeah. If that's what you mean. That's what I would have thought a theologian is. Sure, sure.

Somebody that spent their life studying and now is teaching others. Right. We have a little book you wrote, and when I say little, I mean little. Yeah, it's legitimately little. It's about the size of my hand. A little book for new theologians how and why and how to study theology.

And it's been out for a while. Yeah. So the question Ann even asked me, would I consider myself a theologian, you would say what? Yes. You guys are theologians. And you don't just mean Dave and Ann, you mean everybody? No, just you guys. Yeah, okay.

That's what I thought. No, no, I mean, at risk of sounding cheesy, what we'll see as we talk about it is we really are all theologians. The question isn't, are you a theologian?

It's are you a good one? And that's worth exploring. The word and the idea sounds very intimidating, but theology is just theos from God, right? Means God.

And ology like is related to people know the word logos, word at its very, very basic level. Theology is a word about God. And those could even be unspoken words. That's why we're all theologians, like when we're going through difficulty, if we're going through infertility, whether we speak them or not, we're having thoughts about God. When we're having aches in this world and struggling when we're having hopes and delights, there's a lot of theology that's going on. Part of it is just recognizing we are theologians.

So how do we make sure the God we're responding to and worshiping is the true and living God and not a figment of our imagination. Kelly, why did you want to write this book? Because I get to do this for a living.

I love what I do. I teach college students at Covenant College. These are 18 to 22 year olds. They're studying history, law, chemistry, but everyone takes two classes in theology. And I love when they walk in and think, I can't believe I have to take a stupid class like this.

And then within weeks, I just watched their eyes light up and they start to see this is life. This is meaning and purpose. And it's fascinating to me, I was having a conversation with someone recently at Yale right now, at Harvard right now, Notre Dame, there is a class on happiness at these different institutions. They'll call it different things.

And they're exploding. On happiness. On happiness. That's the subject. Or on human flourishing. Because there's so much longing. You're obviously going to get good jobs.

You're going to make a lot of money. But what is it all about? And as Christians, we're like, purpose and meaning is right central to what we're doing. So it is fascinating. And so the students really respond well.

They do want to know how their faith matters. Is there something that you do at the beginning of class? Because you think you're thinking to yourself as a professor, like, they're just going to be thinking, well, I have to get through this class.

What do you do that grabs their attention? One thing I often do on the very first day of classes, I bring literally about three feet high worth of a stack of thick theology books. They're like 600 pages each, whatever. Obviously they've never read them.

I put them on a table, have the titles facing them. And I say, I know you've never read it. You don't know anything. It's like systematics, theology, or reformed dogmatics, all these intimidated. And I say, tell me about these books.

Why won't you read them? And they say all these nice things like, well, it might be a little complicated. But eventually they'll say, because it's boring, right?

That's what they're really. And so I'm like, well, why is that a problem? Because if God is actually boring, there it is that now we're, you know, this is the living God. Part of it is like you will work really hard in your physics class and you're willing to stretch your brain for that.

And you think it's important or for history or whatever. But to think carefully about God, we're like, oh, that's inappropriate. And that shows some problems for us. You don't have to have a high IQ to be a worshiper of God. But God is also not intimidated by our questions, by our wrestling, by carefully working through things. And part of it's just theology matters because worship does. And we've got to make sure we're worshiping the God who is. Okay, go there. Because you just brought up another word that's, you know, connected obviously to theology, but we are worshipers. I mean, not only are we all theologians, we're all worshipers, whether you're a Christian or not. I say that and you go, yeah, yeah, you're the prof. So help us understand. Connect those two dots.

Yeah, I mean, it affects us all in different kinds of ways. Here's a way into it. I teach a whole semester for upper division students called Christology. It's all in the personal work of Jesus. And part of what we do at the beginning of the course for a couple of weeks is do Jesus and history. And it ends with me going over Jesus and movies over the last hundred years. Right. Which is really good idea.

It's really fun because it shows visually what we've been talking about. And that is, if you watch Jesus and movies the last hundred years, you can clearly see how we're projecting Jesus exactly how we want him. So he is this very white, pale, stoic figure early on. You have Jesus Christ, superstar, right? All of a sudden he's this 70s figure.

You can actually, it's pretty powerful. And it's an example of, you know, students often come in and maybe their youth minister made Jesus seem like he's just wearing Levi's or whatever, right? It's not all bad, but we all make Jesus in our image and we do that with God.

So we want to think through ways in which we're being affected culturally, but it also could be very commonly. Maybe you think of God the Father is just angry and full of wrath all the time. The reality, one of the test is, is prayer something that you're comfortable doing? Because if you're just in the presence of someone who's angry, but is willing to put up with you because, quote unquote, his son loves you. That's an example where it's like, well, Jesus loves me and he's died for me. And so that convinced the father to love me. Yeah, but the father's still mad. Right, he's really, so the father's ticked, but he's just like, well, I love my son.

So as long as my son likes you, I'm going to put up with you. Most people wouldn't put it that way, but that is surprisingly common. But that would be their theology. Yes, that is their theology, which is deeply affecting your ability to pray, your ability to love your kids, your spouse, how you think about life.

Do you constantly live under guilt and shame? Like, so what does God think about you? To answer that question, you've got to talk about what is this God actually like? Wouldn't that be a great dinner discussion with kids at the table? What do you think God thinks about you? That's a great question.

Especially with teenagers, because maybe they haven't always made the best decisions. What would you have said growing up, Dave? Well, I mean, when you were saying that, Kellis, again, he's absent. He doesn't care.

And it was somewhat of a projection of my father who walked out of our family when I was a little boy. But I know as a preacher, I'd often make grand statements from the Word of God about God. And these are attributes of God. He's present. He is holy. He is righteous. I remember a guy came up to me 35 years ago, and I'm glad he did, because he said, yeah, I hear you say God's there and he sees me, but does he care?

I didn't get to that part of his heart that's revealed in Christ. It's like every second of that man's life and my life and your life, I'm making decisions based on, okay, he's up there. Does he see me? Does he care? Is he involved? Is he a loving, tender father? Is he just a mean cosmic killjoy? That's theology.

Right? I mean, and what Anne just said, boy, oh boy, how important it is for us as parents, we're passing down what we believe about God at the dinner table or wherever, right? So Kelly, let's say we're at the dinner table and one of our kids says, I feel like he's absent.

I feel like he's disappointed in me. And as parents, maybe we're feeling the same way. So what do you say to people that are struggling with the wrong theologies about who God is based on scripture? For me, just kind of the pastoral approaches I would have is to ask more questions rather than to make statements. I think one of the things we get confused about with theology and as pastors and theologians, we are totally following this all the time. We think, well, as long as you say the thing, then we're good.

Right? And it's kind of like dealing with someone who's dealing with gossip and you say, you know what, I don't know if you know this, but God doesn't actually want you to just dwell on that. And they're like, oh, that's all I needed.

I just needed them. God doesn't want you to slander someone behind the, oh, now that I know that, right? So you're not saying at the dinner table, well, that's not who God is. This is who God is.

Right. Well, it's just one of those examples of we have to realize sometimes you have to make the verses believable to the people you're talking to. What do you mean? It's not just quoting the verse. It's trying to help them imagine. So when we as parents, as imperfectly as we do, try and love the kids in the midst of their mess, not acting as if the message has no consequences, but loving them in this radical kind of way, that starts to make it more believable that that's true about God. But I do find that's where the questions come in.

Like, I really like how you framed it. Like, tell me, what do you think God thinks about you right now? Then you can speak into what's actually going on in the heart rather than presuming we know, because sometimes the kid, maybe it's not that God is absent. Maybe it's that God is just overly concerned, like God is this nitpicky God or something like that.

So you really have to ask in order to know what we even need to deal with. But then theologically, for me, the big thing is always going back to Jesus. The way you prove that God actually does care is constantly going back to the very coming of the eternal Son of God, becoming one with us, really in flesh, really entering in and suffering and dying. That is God's great display of His foreness of us, for His love for us.

Yes, that He is near, He is present, and that now He's pouring out His Spirit on us. But getting back to Jesus constantly, it sounds cliche, but that's really key. Would that be your answer to how to build a good theology as opposed to, because there's bad theology.

Oh yeah, for sure. There's right and wrong theology. Is that how we get to building a theology proper, a good, solid, biblical, correct theology? Yeah, I mean, from a Christian perspective, the fancy word is Trinitarian, but because the God we worship, we say, okay, we worship God, but the God of the Bible is actually the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And interestingly enough, that God we worship, who is Father, Son, and Spirit, biblically, that worship is directed toward Christ. So the way you know the Father is to look to the Son, and the Spirit's often described as the Spirit of Christ. So that's not minimizing the Father or the Spirit by looking to the Son.

That's actually how and who this God is, how He's revealed Himself, who He is. It is good and right to constantly get our gaze on Christ. And if it's not on Christ, then we tend to have, that's a first sign of a problem. We're working with kids all the time in college that are experiencing and seeing the injustice and suffering in the world.

And I feel like this generation, and all generations, but Gen Zs have really, like, they're feeling the pain and the angst of the world oftentimes. How theologically are you dealing with that? I'm guessing that comes up in the classroom.

It does. And it's an example of where, it can go to extremes, but the Bible has always cared about injustice, about suffering, about poverty. So, and it does relate to theology. Sometimes I'll ask students, I was like, explain to me what it means to know God.

But you have, I'm a new Christian, and it has to be a Bible verse. And they'll say all these good things. They'll say, well, it's about a relationship. And I said, no, no, no, I just want the Bible. And they say all these things. I'm like, well, there is actually a verse that says, this is what it means to know me, says the Lord.

And like, what? And it's in Jeremiah, and it's about Josiah. And it's, he cared about the poor.

And he saw that injustice was dealt with. And it's the same kind of thing in James, where James says, well, this is true religion. And we're like, well, what's true religion? To care for the orphan, the widow in distress, keep yourself unstained from the world. So wait a minute, what does it mean to know God?

And we make it all this philosophical thing. Well, there's something about knowing God that's tied to caring for those who are hurting. It's Isaiah one, where God is upset because Israel thinks they know God, but by neglecting the orphan, the widow, the hurting, the marginalized, they've distorted their understanding of who God is and themselves. So all of that is a long way of saying our actions shape our theology.

And the Bible is pretty clear. When we neglect injustice, and we turn a blind eye to poverty and pain, it hurts our theology because it starts to make us misunderstand God. We start to think that's those people. It's kind of like that question.

Those people are excluded, but we're a bit better. And that's why God, we would never say it, but that's what gets exposed. And I'm always convicted when those verses come into play. And you're also saying to these kids, like all those questions you're asking, God deeply cares about those things, deeply.

And maybe he's wanting to use us. And you'll learn about God by being involved in those things. That's part of the point. That seems to be when James is saying, here's true religion, because faith without works is dead. Because if you just say you have faith and do no works, the question is, what are you having faith in?

Who is this? And then I'm a Protestant, I believe in justification by faith alone. But the Bible warns about distorting that faith. And interestingly enough, it's not because you're doing these things to earn God's favor, but in a response to God's favor. And if we're not involved in some meaningful way, then it can be a sign that we've misunderstood his favor. Okay, I have another question I love to ask.

Don't you like having a professor in the studio? We're living in a day where absolutes, moral absolutes, a lot of people say, well, that's your truth. And I'm guessing students, especially, we've done it for generations, but are you getting any pushback? Well, that's your truth, theology, your truth, the way you're viewing theology, I should say. But they're saying, that's not my truth. I have a whole different view of God, of being moral. That's happening more and more where they're saying there are no moral absolutes or are no absolutes. And scripture, there are no absolutes.

Are there absolutes? So it's a very tricky question. It's trickier than people want to admit.

Yeah. So don't you think our kids are asking these questions? Oh, they are asking, and this is, I would encourage parents rather than panicking, which is all of our first instinct.

Oh man, I was good at panicking. Is actually ask what they're asking. Doesn't mean they're right, but you're trying to understand because God is absolute. His word is trustworthy, authoritative, et cetera, binding. But we have lots of evidence in the history of the church in ways we've taken the Bible in inappropriate ways. And by being naive or ignorant of that fact, it hurts us. And sometimes people are legitimately asking questions because the church has confused some kind of cultural thing with an absolute, right?

So for example, kind of the history of missions, missiology, is a great field of this where it really exposed this. We have letters of a missionary in Japan, and it was like the middle of the 19th century, and he talks about what God is doing, he said, but so far from godly because the men are still wearing skirts and they're sitting on the floor despite our da da da. It's like so offensive, but you realize it's so clear to us, you've confused a cultural thing with godliness that the hard part for us is to figure out how are we doing it?

What are ways? And yet what are the things that are not? So we just have to think through that carefully, right?

What does that mean? Because we can't play fast and loose with scripture, but we've just got to make sure it's scripture that's saying it, not something else. That's why we need to be theologians.

That's right. Good theologians. We are theologians. But good theologians. Yeah, and I would almost end here, and you tell me your perspective, we need to be practical theologians. In other words, especially as we're thinking marriage and family, as we sit at a dinner table or wherever in the family room, have a conversation with our teenager, college age kid, and we don't live it? God is this, and we don't live it? God cares, God provides, and we are freaking out every day and they're watching us. God cares about the poor, cares for justice, and they just don't see it lived out in their home. It's like theology, if it isn't lived, doesn't seem like it's even true.

Is that true? Yeah, I mean, you know it's true. But it's interesting to remind myself and others, when we say like theology matters and is practical, we're not saying you actually need to be perfect. The good theology is you show your kids, I need to ask for forgiveness to say, I don't know. Whether it's about theology or something else, you're to let the kids see you begging God for things, you wrestling with God for things. That's actually good theology. Theology is not about giving all the right answers, because we don't always have them. And it's to apologize when we have done something to them wrong, or maybe we realize as life goes on, I've misrepresented God to you, here's a way that I presented him that it wasn't faithful. That helps your children, you don't have to be perfect.

You have to be honest with God in them, that's what you have to do. That's being a real theologian. It was interesting, our four-year-old grandson woke his dad up the other day and Cody reads his Bible in the morning and Bryce sees him doing that and he said the other day, woke up and Bryce is standing right by his head and he's super early, like 5.30, but Bryce has his Bible in his hand and he's like, are we getting up to spend time in the Bible this morning? And Cody's like, yeah, maybe not this early, but they did, they got up.

And I thought, man, that's the start of it too, isn't it? Is when our kids see that we're in the Bible, we're trusting it, we need it, we're not perfect, but that's theology of knowing who God is in a healthy way. I'm Shelby Abbott and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Kelly Kapik on Family Life Today. You know, I really want to hear how Kelly responds to what Anne just said in her story, but first he's written a book called A Little Book for New Theologians, Why and How to Study Theology. You know, this book offers a concise introduction to the study of theology for newcomers to the field, people who maybe think theology is boring or they'll never be someone who studies it.

In the book, he highlights the value and importance of theological study and explains its unique nature as a serious discipline for us as followers of Jesus. So you can go online to familylifetoday.com and click on the today's resources link to get a copy or get the link in the show notes. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Or you can feel free to drop us something in the mail too.

Our address is Family Life 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832. You know, hey, I know that some of you have actually already been to A Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway, but we just wanted to make sure that you've heard that there's a lot that has changed recently. We have a new speaker lineup, an entirely different guidebook, and so much of the getaway has been changed and intentionally curated for you and your spouse to grow together like never before. So right now would be a great time to head back to Weekend to Remember.

And now through January 22nd, all getaways are 50% off, so you can find a date and location that works for you at weekendtoremember.com. Okay, so kids don't want to go to bed when they're young. They just don't, you know this, right? But they often ask thoughtful questions right before bedtime that we should pay attention to.

And Kelly Kapik had that happen to him. I would often at bedtime, take the kids upstairs, read them a Bible story, pray for them. And then I'm like, yay, I get to go watch ESPN. Like the day is finally done. But as you know, when they're little, that's often when they want to talk because they don't want to go home.

Which is great and terrible, right? And I'll never forget one night, my son and daughter for a long time when they were young and they were in the same room and I was leaving and I hear my son, hey papa, I have a question. And I'm like, not tonight, I was already turned to the door and I was leaving, but I could tell something in his voice and I turned around and he said, I don't know if I love God. And I thought, okay, here we go.

You know, I'm coming back for getting ESPN. And he said, I know I love you and mama, but I don't even know what it means to love God. And I don't know what it means for God to love me. And so also I'm like, that's such an amazing theological question.

And we all think we know what the answer is, but you don't know what the answer is until you have to work and explain it to a little kid, right? And there is something very beautiful about that, where he could say that and not have panic and start to talk about what does God's love look like and how he can experience it. We're all like, what did you say? Well, it was interesting. I had to think and I said, you know, when you're playing with Ruby, our dog or you and I are wrestling on the couch and we're giggling or you're doing this with mama, the love you're experiencing is an extension of God's love. That's not something different. That is a taste of God's love. And it's even bigger and greater than that.

That cold orange you're eating on the hot summer day. That is a taste of God's love. Because then all of that, then all of a sudden it's training him to see God present throughout the world and to lift his gaze and start to see God's love. What does it look like to explore the transformative concept of being whole, challenging stereotypes about poverty and generosity? Well, Kelly Kapik is going to be back tomorrow with David Ann Wilson, along with his wife Tabitha to talk about just that. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.