Leveraging Net Worth Giving with Ken Boa and Russ Crosson

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That's faithfi.com and click give. Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. Matthew 6 20.

I am Rob West. The Bible clearly warns against storing up earthly treasure for its own sake and instead calls us to be rich toward God. Today, Ken Boa and Russ Crossen tell us how to do that using biblical leverage. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.

That's 800-525-7000. This is faith and finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, I'm delighted to have Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crossen here again today. Ken is the founder of Reflections Ministries.

Russ is executive vice president and chief mission officer at Ronald Blue Trust. Gentlemen, great to have you back with us. Rob, thanks for having me. Thank you. This is our third and final interview on the great book the two of you co-authored. It's titled Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. It's such an important book that we want everyone to have a copy, literally. So that's why until the end of the year we're making it available to folks for a gift of any amount to Faithfi.

Just go to faithfi.com and click on the give tab. Now for folks who may not have heard the other episodes we've done on this topic. Russ, would you give us just a thumbnail sketch of this idea of biblical leverage? Yeah, it's the idea that we know about leveraging a house.

You borrow money and use leverage to buy a bigger house. Well, if you leverage your giving to get involved in what God's doing around the world, you can have an incredible impact on eternity. So it's the idea that you take yours, invest it now, and see what God does to multiply it.

Yeah. Well, you know, one question folks struggle with a lot is, where should I give? And some even ask, is it okay to give somewhere other than my local church?

Ken, how should folks answer those questions? Yes, I think that this issue—in fact, the church was the one that was collecting the revenues for then the distributing of those things. But Paul talks about those who share in the benefits of the gospel should all share all good things with those who presented it. So it has to do, as we can see in the epistles, with those who have taught them, those who have discipled them, those who have mentored them, those who have been evangelists as well. So there's a wide array of things, but it has to, in my mind, involve something to do with the gospel.

It seems to me that that's a critical component, where there are different kinds of things that we can give in different areas. But I think that the gospel needs to be included. More specifically, though, the great commission of making disciples.

And so that's what we're told. So this ministry of God's word that you can give it away, and then God's mercy—we talked about this in the appendix— and then ministry of God's justice. So they're different, but the Spirit will guide us in what to do as we look to Him and use His wisdom and combine a synergistic process. Ken, what would you say to those who say, well, wait a minute, we're not under the law of Moses anymore, we're under the law of Christ, and therefore the tithe doesn't apply? Yes, it's actually—I think of the tithe as an actual working minimum, because to give proportionately is going to be—it's really giving according to your ability. And so while we're not given an exact amount, it would be well for us to realize that it's grace-giving, and it is based upon whom much has been received, much will be given. So that whole idea that you receive and then you give. So it's a perspective of holding on to God's perspective of what's going to last, what's going to endure. What defines me is what it comes down to. See, Rob, we wish the New Testament gave us a percentage, that'd be a lot easier.

Yes. That's why the instruction in First Timothy to rich people, because, you know, it's—we wish it told us a percentage, 23 or 62 or 49, give me a number, because to him it must have been given, must have required, and the more you have, all right, what's that mean for me? And that's where it gets to be real challenging, and why you have to really listen to the Holy Spirit, because rich people can be way more generous than they realize. And when we talk about rich people, we're not necessarily talking about those that have an ultra-high net worth, although they're included, but really we can all think of ourselves as rich, Russ, because we have more than we need, right? Yeah, if you define rich, which is the way we define it, as having more than you need, because God promises to meet our needs, then some people have way more than they need, some people have just enough to meet their needs. That's where it's really easier for the person that just has enough to meet his needs, and the person has way more than he needs, it gets way harder for him to answer the question, how much is enough?

That's really helpful. We're talking today with Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crossan, the co-authors of Leverage, using temporal wealth for eternal gain. When we come back, what about asset-based giving, and how do we test where the Spirit is leading us? Also, what's the proper mindset for our giving? Much more just around the corner on faith and finance.

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I'm Rob West. Joining me today, my good friends Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Cross and co-authors of the book Leverage, Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. We want to put a copy in your hands and we can do that when you make a gift of any amount, and we mean that, any amount at faithfi.com. That's faithfi.com.

Just click the Give tab. Now Russ, our friend Ron Blue calls Dr. Boa, Dr. Dr. Boa, because he's actually got two doctorates. How did you feel writing a book with a guy that smart? Well, it was very intimidating, and I hope the readers, when they read the book, they'll know the part he wrote and the part I wrote. So, remember you have a theologian on one side and a practitioner on the other side, so have grace when you read the way I wrote versus the way he wrote, and you'll be able to tell the difference.

I suspect you will. Dr. Boa, how do we test where the Spirit is leading us as we think about our giving? I think it has to do with risk-taking. There's no growth in the way of knowing Christ and discipleship apart from taking of significant risks, and the more we grow, the more he will invite us to take risks. That's why this proportionate principle is so incredibly high, because the more we have, the more we're actually going to be having to say it's going to be more and more, not less and less. And so, the way we grow in our faith is to commit ourselves to an action that will fail unless God shows up. Yeah, we've been talking about the where of our giving.

Russ, let's talk about the how. That's, of course, another important question to address. You talk in the book about cash flow versus net worth giving. How do we decide which, or is it both? Well, I would say for potentially the wealthier people, it's both. For most folks, it'll be cash flow. They give out of their salary or their dividends. off their company or whatever, and that's what we mean by cash flow giving. They're writing checks. They're giving cash, but they've been having net worth and have assets that are growing.

Once you've kind of answered the question, how much is enough, you need to say, why is that still growing? My retirement plan is going up. My business is going up. My real estate's going up.

And so, you have to look at that. If you're going to answer the question and be able to stand before God and he says, how'd you do with what I gave you? You have to look at the asset side of your financial life, I think, as well, because I don't think it's going to be a good answer to say, well, I kept giving out of my $200,000 salary, but my business grew to $20 million under my watch, and I didn't give according to my abilities.

I went along. So, I think the wealthier you are, the more you have to look at the asset side of your situation in addition to the cash flow in order to give according to your ability. Yeah. Is it your experience that when you challenge folks around net worth giving, that requires a bit more of an act of faith? In many cases, it does. But quite frankly, Rob, because I live in a great country, many times they avoid capital gain tax.

They get to write it off. So, quite frankly, the gift of an asset sometimes is even better stewardship than the gift of cash because you avoided some taxes, you get to write it off at a fair market value. And so, it does take faith.

It takes some time for people to kind of grasp that. I think the biggest thing is to understand that you can actually give assets. You can, and that's where the use of foundations and things like this come in, but you can give assets.

And then it is harder sometimes, but sometimes it's really good stewardship to do that. Mention a few of the specific opportunities for asset-based giving that our listeners may not be familiar with. Well, the first one would be if you have an appreciated stock in your portfolio that's got a built-in gain, you ought to look at anything that's appreciated. Appreciated land, appreciated real estate, anything that's gone up, LLC interest. So, anything that's appreciated, you might want to consider giving it before you sell it. If you're thinking about selling it, maybe even give it in lieu of giving cash because you avoid that capital gain tax. So, it's anything like that that's got appreciation in it on your asset side. You don't give, obviously you can give if you're over 70 and a half, you can give 100,000 out of your retirement plan.

There's some other cool things you can do there, but anything that's appreciated would be what you look at first. Yeah, and that's why we love the Donor Advised Fund. It becomes such a powerful tool to facilitate the kind of giving that Russ is talking about.

Dr. Boa, help us with the mindset that we should have during the act of giving. The mindset I think should be one of privilege, not duty. It's actually an opportunity of freedom that I've been given to have some eternal impact during this temporal arena and to transmute the lead of what's passing away into the gold of what will endure forever. So, it's a mindset of doing that, but part of the thing that tethers us as well is the bottom line that how much do we have and often we want to hold on to it even in this life. My own thinking more and more I have to say, Rob, is that I'm finding I'd rather die poor at the end. I want to live in such a way that I have no more than I actually need to get along because it's going to be asking me these questions later on.

What did you do with what I gave you? And if I invest it now and put it in the lives of people that will have an incalculably diffusive impact, there's no way of quantifying that. But it's hard. You have to treasure the unseen over the seen and the not yet over the now.

So, you know, you can't take it with us. So, you're going to give it away either now or when you die. And so, I think many people think, well, I'll just give it away when I die.

But there's a both and. You give currently, as we've already talked about earlier, reverse compounding, but you also give through your estate plan. But it's both and, not just give it all at the end. Yes, when we're talking about current versus deferred giving, the old phrase, if you're giving while you're living, then you're knowing where it's going. There's something to be said for that because the sooner we give it away and not hoard it and hold it, but rather let it be used.

If it can be used now out of the abundance God's given me, I'm going to be invited to invest in that which is going to endure forever. I can't quantify it. So, there's a risk involved. But the more I have, the more I should give proportionately. We're told that. The more I have, the more I should give sacrificially.

It should affect my life. And I have to be willing to actually give it away more and more. So, it's not just something I'm going to hold on to after I'm dead, but rather giving with a warm hand so that we actually can experience that grace of knowing that it's being used now, not just deferred later on.

Yeah. Ken, do we actually get credit for gifts we give at death as opposed to while we're living? If you're not careful, you're going to try to name your land after yourself and your wealth after yourself and have an identity that you try to continue to have, this is done in my name, and so forth. But to be perfectly frank with you, I think the future value of our giving declines every day we wait on it.

And don't skip it away. That's a big idea. And I know you've said that reward is based on faithfulness to opportunity, and we can send this on ahead. So, eternal rewards are an appropriate basis for our giving?

Is that right? Absolutely. I think that we're told that if you want to receive, have a heavenly portfolio, God's not against us pursuing profit. He just wants us to define it according to how he defines it. And profit isn't money and wealth and power, profit is relationships. It is a right relationship with God and a right relationship with others. That's where a wise person will pursue that which is going to endure forever.

So Rob, we don't go to work in the Peter Pavilion or the Pauline Plaza. Those first century apostles invested in people, and that's why we're here. And so it's, Psalm 49 talks about that.

You can build buildings and buy land, put your name on it. That's not going to endure. People endure. Yeah, we've got 30 seconds. This has been a fascinating conversation.

Russ, tie a bow on it for us. Well, I think that what I just said would be how to leave it. You know, we all have a choice. I mean, they'd be wise with their money and be sending on ahead now, or we can be a fool and try to sit on it and hold it.

And you don't know when your life's going to be required of you, so I'd get started sooner than later. That's well said. Well, Dr. Boa, Russ Crossan, so thankful for your ministry, your friendship, and for this incredible work. We're grateful for the time you spent with us today. Grateful to be with you. Thanks for having us.

That was Ken Boa and Russ Crossan, the co-authors of the book Leverage, Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain, a fascinating conversation. Folks, we want to put a copy of this book in your hands, and we can do that when you make a gift before December 31st of any amount at faithfi.com. That's faithfi.com.

Just click Give. Much more to come just around the corner. We'll be right back. We're grateful for support from Movement Mortgage, who provides residential home loans in all 50 states. Guided by a mission to love and value people and a goal to redefine the mortgage process, Movement seeks to help others achieve their financial goals. You can find out more at movement.com slash faith. Movement Mortgage LLC supports equal housing opportunity, NMLS number 39179.

For licensing information, please visit nmlsconsumeraccess.org. We're grateful for support from Eventide Investments on the faith and finance program. Eventide's approach to values-based investing is grounded in the belief that humankind was created in the image of God with intrinsic dignity, value, and worth. Eventide calls this investing that makes the world rejoice. More information is available at eventideinvestments.com. That's eventideinvestments.com. Welcome back to Faith and Finance. I'm Rob West. All the lines are full, so let's dive right back in and see how many questions we can tackle today. We're going to dive in beginning in Pittsburgh today.

James, go right ahead. My daughter is 21 and she decided to buy a car. We didn't know that she was doing this. We had advised her another route, but anyways, this is where we're at. The car is about worth $12,000 and between some gap insurance and taxes and things, she ended up getting a loan for $18,000. It's about 21% interest rate and it's over six and a half years. We're about six months in right now. We want to get out of that situation.

We know it's not ideal. I think it ended up being maybe $40,000 would end up paying in the end. We're looking to try to refinance in a way that would make sense. She does have another vehicle that's about $5,000 out on that loan.

Yeah, this is about where we're at, trying to think of what's the best route to go. Well, you really wouldn't just be able to refinance it altogether. You'd have to refinance it at probably what it's worth and then perhaps get a personal loan of some kind in addition to that. Are you in a position to help in terms of paying it down? Maybe you match her payments and try to get the car's value as soon as possible so you're at par between the loan and the car value so it could be sold?

What do you all have in mind at this point? Yeah, with the two-vehicle situation, that's what we're trying to figure out. Trying to sell something is probably in our best interest, selling one or both vehicles and probably eating the rest if there's still a negative financial situation there. But that's really where we're scratching our heads because there was a co-buyer on the car. So that's why we're trying to refinance that one. So there's a co-signer, somebody that signed on the loan for the $18,000?

Correct, yeah, and that person is not in the picture right now. Okay. Yeah, well, I assume they would love for you to pay off that loan as well because they're equally responsible for it now even though they're not in the picture. So what would you ultimately like to be left with? Which car best fits your budget and your needs and offers her reliable transportation when it's all said and done? Right, not the car that we owe $18,000 on. It's not the best car. That's a Subaru that she bought herself and that would be the better car to have.

Okay, so she's got two options at this point. Really, the first option is to sell it and then you all would need to get a loan. Either she would need to qualify for a loan or if you all had the ability to help her, you could write a check for the balance, which it sounds like could be around $6,000.

I mean, I would confirm that. Cars, even though we're down 6% on used cars year over year, perhaps it's worth a little bit more than you think if you were to sell it on a private sale. Hopefully it is, which closes that gap between the $12,000 you think it's worth and the $18,000 you owe. Obviously, at that interest rate, we want to get it out from under it as soon as possible. Are you all in a position where you can help her either by stroking a check all up front or over time helping her to pay it down?

And is that something you'd like to do? Yeah, it could be something we're open to. We also know that sometimes, yeah, we're open to that. We want to make sure that, you know, life lessons are definitely learned so we don't want her to be negatively impacted for years to come with, you know, a bad credit score or anything like that either.

Yeah. Well, her credit score won't be affected as long as she continues to make the payments. Obviously, if she were to turn the car in, which some people will do, that would trash her credit and then there may be a judgment against her for the deficiency balance. So I think you've got a couple of options. First, praying through it and saying, how do we want to help? You know, that could be just encouraging her to live within her means to learn from this. Scenario two is you say, no, you know, we feel like she has already learned from this and we want to be part of the solution. And so one approach would be to say, listen, every dollar you send above the monthly payment, we're going to match it. Or even you might even match from the first dollar, including the monthly payment. However, you guys wanted to approach that.

But the idea would be that you'd accelerate the principal reduction to try to get that car down, you know, to its actual market value in terms of the balance owed on the car loan as quickly as possible. So then you could turn around and sell it and then satisfy the note and then she uses the other car from that point forward. And hopefully she's learned a valuable lesson. I would probably take one of those two approaches.

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. You know, there is a case for tough love and to learn a valuable lesson and to let her just kind of see this through on her own. And there's another case to be made that, you know, it's appropriate because you all have the financial ability to do so and you don't feel like you're getting in the way of what God might be teaching her by, you know, helping to be part of the solution.

I could certainly go either way. But I think that's the goal is to try to get this paid down to the true market value in terms of the amount owed as quickly as you can so it can be sold. Yeah, that might be the route that we're looking for, but I appreciate the insights, Rohan.

Well, you're welcome. And I like the idea of doing it in a way that reinforces the right behavior. So, you know, that compromised approach would be to say, hey, you're responsible for the monthly payment, but every dollar you can send above that, we're going to, you know, we're going to match it. And that way, you know, she's encouraged to really dial back her spending because the more she can put toward that car, the more you guys are going to kick in to, you know, help pay it down.

I mean, that's just one scenario, but I think those kinds of ideas that drive her toward the right disciplines that she can carry with her much, you know, beyond this experience will be helpful. James, appreciate your call today. Thanks for being on the program. All right, let's round out the program today.

Back to the phones to South Haven, Minnesota. Sherry, go right ahead. How can I help you? Hi, I'm going to be coming into a large sum of money in the future within the next six months or so, and it's a substantial amount. I don't know what to do. Do I go to a financial advisor?

Do I get help with somebody where to put the funds? Well, I appreciate you asking. Absolutely.

You need some wise counsel. And as you said, it's a substantial sum of money. It doesn't matter how much it is, but you want to be a good steward of that.

And that means having somebody to walk alongside you, not so they can tell you what to do with it, but they can ask a lot of questions. Understand first, what are your values as a believer? What is God doing in your life? What are your needs?

What are your passions around giving and being able to support the work of the Lord? How should it be invested? How might it be used in the future?

And what's the time horizon associated with that? As they ask all these questions, then together, you all can create a plan that says, here's how much we're going to keep liquid. Here's how much we might invest.

They can also help you protect it from a tax standpoint and just be really thoughtful about any taxes that would be incurred along the way. So what I would do is head to our website, faithfi.com. That's faithfi.com. Click find a CKA, interview two or three CKs in your area, and find the one that's the best fit. Thanks for calling. I hope you'll make plans to join us again next time for another edition of Faith and Finance.