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Now, let's dive into the podcast. A faithful man will abound with blessings, but whoever hastens to be rich will not go unpunished. Proverbs 28 verse 20. I'm Rob West. Powerball jackpots and scratch-off tickets might seem like a shortcut to financial freedom, but should Christians be buying in?
Dr. David W. Jones returns to our financial ethics series today to help us think biblically about the lottery and whether it aligns with a life of faithful stewardship. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7,000.
This is Faith in Finance: biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, we're honored to have Dr. David W. Jones back with us again today. He's a senior professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and the author of Every Good Thing, which explores wealth, stewardship, and poverty from a biblical worldview. David, great to have you back with us.
Thanks, Rob. It's good to be here. David, as you know, last week we explored the ethics of giving to the homeless. And today, we turn to something that seems harmless to many but raises significant ethical concerns, and that is playing the lottery. Of course, we've seen over recent years that lottery jackpots have climbed past a billion dollars, and it's sparked conversation among believers.
So, I want to begin with the big picture: what does God's word teach about the desire to get rich quickly, and how might that inform the way Christians view the lottery? Yeah, it's so important, Rob, that we think in biblical categories about poverty and wealth. A few verses that come to mind. In Proverbs 13, 11, Solomon wrote and said that wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it. And then the writer of the book of Hebrews, Hebrews 13, 5, wrote, and he warned us and said, keep your life free from the love of money and be content with that which you have.
For God has said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. I think both these verses just speak to the idea of the importance of work and of contentment. Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Now, the lottery often markets itself as a way to dream big or change your life. But I know you've written that financial choices reveal what we treasure most. We talk about that a lot on this program.
So what might a Christian's participation in the lottery, David, reveal about what's going on in the heart? You know, it's important that we maybe make a distinction between having a desire to materially flourish. I mean, I think certainly all of us would prefer blessings over cursings. And certainly we feel a duty to provide materially for our families. And that could be a good thing.
But when that actually changes over and becomes an idol and we start to lust after material things, I think that shows that our hearts become off. And the best way to monitor what's in our heart is by looking at our words and looking at what our hands are doing. Proverbs 23, 7, Solomon taught that our actions reveal our hearts. He wrote, As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. And then later on, Christ probably with that proverb in mind in Matthew 12, 34, Christ taught that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
And so for those who play the lottery and are trying to increase their riches and change their life into the dream big, it oftentimes it might show a discontentment in the heart, maybe an unhealthy fixation on wealth. Yeah. Uh no doubt about it.
Now, that leads to the practice of someone who's considering playing the lottery or maybe does occasionally, and they might say, Well, David, it's just for fun. How would you respond to that? And is there a line where playing the lottery crosses from entertainment into something more spiritually harmful? Yeah, that's a great question, Rob. And I think maybe we need to make a distinction here between somebody who, say your uncle gets you a scratch-off ticket, you know, for your birthday.
You know, is it sinful to scratch it off and see if you've won $20 or not? I think that would be different from somebody that has a habitual weekly gambling engagement. And so maybe we could say that it might not be inherently wrong to play the lottery on occasion. But of course, just because something is permissible, I mean, doesn't mean that it's wise. And I think we could certainly say that playing the lottery, gambling, it's never turned anyone into a better person.
Yeah. There's no doubt about that. And then there's the whole issue and ethics behind do we want to be involved in an industry that's harming so many people, whether it's for our entertainment or not. We'll continue to unpack this with David W. Jones just around the corner.
Should Christians play the lottery? Much more on that straight ahead. Following this interview, Your questions today at 800-525-7000. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
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Text Faith to 98656. That's Faith to 98656. Or visit faithfi.com forward slash Lebanon. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. We're in the midst of a financial ethics series.
We're talking today specifically about should Christians play the lottery? We're joined by Dr. David W. Jones. He's back with us again today.
He's senior professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's also the author of Every Good Thing, which explores wealth, stewardship, and poverty from a biblical perspective. I'd highly encourage you to pick it up. David, as we continue this conversation about the lottery, which at its core is this idea of getting rich quick without any work, let's talk about just a biblical perspective of work and flourishing and what God intended for us to be as co-creators with Him, created in His image. Hey, you know, Rob, if we kind of look at maybe kind of one of the underlying issues or problems with the lottery, it goes all the way back to God's design for mankind.
We read in Genesis 1.28, you know, that God made us in his image. And being made in God's image, it means a lot of things. But one of the things that it means in a foundational way is that we are to, in a sense, to function like God. In Genesis 1, God's creator. And then he goes and he tells mankind, I want you, Den, to procreate.
I want you to labor and function and in many ways sort of act like me. And this is part of God's divine design for his creatures is that we would labor, that we would work, and then as we labor and work, we would produce and we would flourish. And so this is underlying design for humanity. And a problem with the lottery is it creates flourishing without work, which is a violation of that principle. And so we can see this sort of in a very easy way.
I mean, just I think of just even an hour ago here in my office, I heard someone's tires screeching out on the road. And I thought to myself, well, someone's father is still paying for their tires, right? Because it's that teenager didn't labor for the production, for the tires on their car, hence they're abusing them. And the same thing happens in so many different ways, and even more so in the lottery when the stakes are so much higher, when there can be hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars that someone gets. When we look at the results, what happens to lottery winners, we see that oftentimes there's a lot of heartache, there's a lot of bankruptcy, a lot of other sin that comes into it.
And it all goes back to this divine principle: we were designed to bear God's image, to work in labor, and that's how we're supposed to flourish and produce. We weren't made to just receive production and to flourish apart from labor. That is so well said. You know, we came out with a study here at Faith Phi recently called Wisdom Over Wealth, a deep dive into the book of Ecclesiastes. And the author, John Cortinez, makes the point in the book that when wealth increases faster than wisdom, we're in a danger zone.
But when wisdom outpaces wealth, we're in a good position. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. I think in my mind, I just had jotted down earlier, Ecclesiastes 3, 12 and 13. They're in Ecclesiastes.
Solomon says, I perceive that there is nothing better for men than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live. Also, that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all their work, for this is God's good gift to man. And so that's this divine principle that we're talking about. I love that. Let's talk about just participating in the system that's behind lottery.
You know the statistics, they're staggering. The poorest third of Americans buy more than half of all lottery tickets, and those making under $10,000 spend about 6% of their income on them. Does that raise ethical concerns for believers, not just about participation, but support for systems that clearly exploit the poor? Yeah, you know, it's, you know, we said earlier, you know, just because something is permissible, it doesn't mean it's wise. We could even expand that and say, just because something is legal, I mean, doesn't mean that it's moral.
So, in regard to things like the lottery, the question is not, you know, can I do it? But the question really is, you know, should I do it? And a part of the answer to that, it's these things that you brought up, Rob. It's, well, you know, who's being affected by what I'm doing? What's going on in this larger industry that I'm voluntarily perhaps participating in?
And beyond that, what's happening to those who are watching and those who are maybe seeing me participate? And when we just look at the incredible negative effect that it has, that the lottery gambling has on the poor, you know, in many ways, the lottery, it's a redistributive tax from the poor to the rich and to the state. And I think in other ways, the lottery becomes very predatory upon the The most financially vulnerable in our society. And so, if that's the case, I think Christians really may need to think long and hard about: is it really glorifying to God if I participate in this enterprise, or might it be better to abstain from it? Yes.
Now, on the flip side of that, should we take the benefits that come from the lottery?
So I'm here in the state of Georgia. Our Georgia lottery collects over a billion dollars a year. Half of that, I think about two-thirds, maybe three-quarters, goes to the winnings and the administration, but a third of it goes to college subsidies and scholarships and grants. My two boys, one who's in college now at the University of Georgia, one who's on his way, are going to get 100% of their tuition covered because they've worked hard, and that's going to come directly from the lottery. How do we think about that as Christians?
You know, it's, I think, in a sense, there may be some room here for disagreement among Christians. That certainly I have friends who would say, you know, in good conscience, you know, I could not receive such monies. And here in my state of North Carolina, we have the North Carolina Education Lottery. It's very similar to Georgia. It's pretty much the same kind of setup.
And I have folks who's who, you know, that they won't take the money just because of a conscience sort of decision. But there are other Christians who I know that have no problem with it at all. And just, you know, their take is, hey, you know, we live in the fallen world and it's full of fallen structures. And as long as I'm not actually endorsing it or facilitating it, then it would be okay to do that. And so I think, again, I think there's probably room there for disagreement.
I think what I would want to affirm is an awareness of what's going on. And I think certainly with our eyes open and knowing what's part of the systems that we participate in. I think that's what we need to process as we stand before the Lord. Yeah, I think that's really helpful. David, we've got just less than a minute left.
What would you say to someone in our listening audience who's feeling convicted today and maybe still struggling with the temptation of playing the lottery? What might you encourage them with? Yeah, certainly, you know, playing the lottery, whether it's just an occasional thing or even if someone has a weekly habit, for someone who's convicted that that's wrong, I think in regard to any other sin, 1 John 1, 9 applies. If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so it's not the unpardonable sin.
And for somebody that has perhaps erred, certainly repentance would be appropriate. And as with all sins, accountability and local church involvement is going to be essential. Yeah, that's well said. Boy, what a gift to have you with us, David. Thanks for helping us think more deeply and biblically about these important issues.
Thanks, Rob. It's good to be here. That's David W. Jones, Senior Professor of Christian Ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Pick up his book, Every Good Thing, Where You Buy Books.
We'll be back with your questions after this break.
So call right now, 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. Or if you'd prefer to email your question, send it to us at askrob at faithby.com. Stick around. Are you looking for a financial professional who shares your Christian values and offers advice you can trust?
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Soundmindinvesting.org. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. We're taking your calls and questions, and we do have a few lines open. If you want to call right now, any financial topic today, 800-525-7,000. That's 800-525-7,000.
Let's go to New York, Sue. I understand you have a question today as you drive along the way.
So let us know how we can help.
Well, last year, about this time, I had six. credit cards and there was about $5,000, $6,000, $7,000 on each. And I was told that Because we'd had them for so long and we'd paid so much money in interest, I should let at least. I should let them all go, but one. and then pay off the one and just use it for when I needed it.
Well, I did let three of them just go. uh the three larger ones And I've been paying on the other three this past year. And they've done just exactly like the guy told me they would do. They put it in collections, and then they now have turned it over to an attorney. And I'm just wondering if what should I they also have offered like instead of being 9,000, you know, I could pay back 4,500 or something like that.
And I'm just wondering what should I do now? I mean, is my credit's already ruined? And the way he explained it to me is nobody's going to lose their job. Nobody's going to you're not doing anything to hurt anybody. And they and you've paid all this already in interest.
So I don't know what to do now. I kind of feel convicted about it. Yeah, I'm so sorry, Sue, for the situation that you're in. It sounds like you've connected with what's called a debt settlement company. I wish I would have talked to you a year ago, but we'll talk about the path forward.
I would have not recommended that for various reasons. Number one is I resonate with your feeling like you need to honor your obligations regardless of how much you've paid in toward principal repayment and interest. As much as we don't like carrying credit card debt, it is an obligation that we've committed to. There's severe damage, not to mention the legal implications with judgments and so forth. And then there's no guarantees.
The creditors aren't required to settle. Any forgiven amount can be taxable, and they do often charge high fees. And there's a lot of bad actors in this space. But I think the bottom line is the question is: how do we proceed forward? And here's what I'd like for you to do.
I mean, my preferred way for you to handle credit card debt, and we may actually be able to. Get the accounts in collection re-aged and into this program is something called debt management. And our friends at Christian Credit Counselors is the organization we recommend. Thousands of our listeners have used them, they're all believers. And unlike debt settlement, where you stop paying and they go into collections and charge-offs and judgments and credit, you know, trashing your credit, this is completely different.
Debt management program, credit counseling, is a program that is already in place inside every creditor, Capital One, and Citi and Bank of America. They all have a credit counseling department.
So the account gets closed, it gets moved into the credit counseling program, it stays with the existing lender, and you know, it's a program that's already in place.
So you just pay through the nonprofit credit counseling agency, they pass it along to your creditor, and by going into the program, they'll drop the interest rates, not always to zero, in some cases they do, but usually less than 10%. But when you go into that program, any accounts that are past due would be re-aged, brought current. And as long as you stay current on your payment, then you'll get it back on track.
Now, the only question would be whether or not that's going to be possible, just given how far past due these accounts are, and the fact that you're now with a collection agency and it's been purchased away from the original creditor. We may or may not be able to deal with those, but they'll be able to advise you on that.
So, if you'd like, I can give you the website or you can stay in the line, and our team will give you the phone number, but that would be the direction I would go.
Okay, and then so pay it back. What flushed it whatever? You said now an attorney was going to get involved. What happens if an attorney gets involved? Yeah, the attorney is just going to try to get you to pay on what you owe, and they're going to add a bunch of fees to it, which is just going to raise the balance.
And they could seek a judgment where they go to a court and the judge just acknowledges that the debt is owed. And then, you know, depending on how much is owed and so forth, there are certain ramifications on that in terms of how they would proceed on collection. But we want to try to avoid that attorney getting involved because the attorney has to get paid, and that's going to add additional cost to this.
So I think that's why it would be important for you to go ahead and get this, you know, over to Christian Credit Counselors, let them evaluate all of the accounts, come up with a plan that allows you to start moving toward repayment in a way that everybody acknowledges so you're back in good standing. Yeah, okay.
Well, the reason we got in this shape of speaking well is a lot of reasons. But and one of the things is I'm I'm seventy two, my husband's seventy five and I've gone back to work since then just so I can pay for his medicine. We w and you know, that's the problem is having that much Each month to come up with because, you know, our Social Security is kind of a joke right now with us. I mean, it is what it is, but yeah, I know that's real, Sue, and I totally get that. And I understand that can be challenging, and he's got to have the medicine.
And I realize where it's expensive, that can add up quickly. Would you be in a position?
Well, let me ask you this: what's the total amount you owe today? Do you know? Oh, no, not really, because those three I've just not kept up with. Probably around fifteen thousand, maybe a little more. I don't know.
Okay, maybe twenty thousand. All right.
So at 20,000, I mean, typically the payment's somewhere between 2% and 3%.
So that would be somewhere between $4 and $600 a month for you to get moving toward paying these back if they were all able to be put in the program, and again, they might not be. Would that be something you could absorb? Oh no, I couldn't pay four hundred. No, that's why I had to Do this because I couldn't pay it.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I should.
Well, I understand.
So I think the key is there, and I realize you can only do what you can do. And so it probably would behoove you to get some legal counsel just so you understand the implications of what could happen. If they do get a court judgment, that could allow them to garnish wages or, you know, attach a bank account, depending on the state laws.
So that's why some legal advice would be important. That's not automatic, and it would involve them going to court and getting that judgment. before any of that could happen. Do you have somebody in your church or somebody that's a family friend or that you know that could advise you on this? Not an attorney, I don't know.
Okay. So you may just want to call your local church and see if they could make a referral to you, somebody that might just be able to give you some legal counsel here so you understand what's possible and you don't get caught off guard by any of it. You could also reach out to Christian Credit Counselors, they may have some suggestions for you. I realize there is not a quick fix to this, and you've got a lot on you. And so the Lord knows your needs here, and He is our provider, and we can trust Him in that.
So we're going to ask Him to provide. I would also encourage you to make this known to your local church. Perhaps they'd be willing to step in and help here in some way for you all to get beyond this, just given the situation with the high cost of these drugs that your husband needs.
So we'll be praying for you. You stay on the line. Our team will give you that phone number to Christian Credit Counselors and let us know how this turns out. Thanks for your call today. Big thanks to my team today, Dev and Robert and Taylor.
We'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Faith and Finance is provided by FaithFi and listeners like you.
