You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian worldview. Today, we're going to talk about that post from President Trump on Truth Social. We're also going to talk about the tension between the Pope and the Trump administration as it relates to Iran. We're so glad you're with us for this conversation this week. Please stick around.
Welcome to Breakpoint This Week. From the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street, president of the Coulson Center. John, we're going to start today with the post on Truth Social by President Trump.
Now, you and I had talked earlier this week. about talking about this and I had a Rather optimistic theory. That most people were unaware of this. I know you and I live a lot online. And that's just how I felt.
And then I went to my girls' school today. I'm there every Tuesday and Thursday. And I decided to just ask around: have you heard about this? Have you heard about this? And John, everybody had heard about it.
So I suppose it is worth mentioning. I'm going to toss it to you. Tell us how we should think about this. Do you want me to describe the post? I'm going to assume most people know about it at this point.
Well, I think first you should just acknowledge that I was right. I feel like you just didn't acknowledge what is so obvious, which it really was a big deal. And that in and of itself is part of the story that something on social media could. Draw so much. Kind of gravity uh But but that's the president, right?
He is he's a larger than life personality, but Earlier this week, he posted an image of himself, or he reposted, I guess. He shared an image of himself. as Jesus healing And later on in the week, he articulated that he thought he was portraying himself as a doctor that was healing. not as Jesus.
So that's the the reasoning. I do think though, to some degree, it is interesting how quickly things kind of fade out of Significance, not that this should. Actually, I'm going to make a case that it should not fade out of significance, that we should take it actually very, very seriously. But there's been so many times in this administration and with the relationship that the President has with the American people, the President has with certainly mainstream media outlets, where things that seem like the biggest deal in the world at the beginning of the week seem not like the biggest deal of the world. Later on in the week, and I received lots of text.
Are you going to talk about this? You should talk about this. You got to talk about this. And usually, I'm pretty stubborn. I mean, this is something we should probably just share with everyone.
The quickest way. To get me to not say something is to demand that I say something. I just, there's something in me. It might be that I'm, you know, the fourth child. I was the only boy.
I'm just particularly stubborn and sinful. Probably all of the above. I'm shocked by this news. I'm absolutely shocked. I gotta say, there's a number of things that I think need to be said.
First of all, the image was blasphemy. Even if And I think in a different context, we would be talking about. Why do Christians do bad art? In other words, like this particular image that the president's face hijacked is bad art. It's kind of the bad Sunday school art that we talk about.
Or should talk about. We need good art. We need beautiful representation. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had. about how you portray Jesus, whether you should.
J. I. Packer and Knowing God, a book that I just find to be stunningly important and helpful in terms of applying theology, argues against it. He says that it's kind of a Puritan take on the First Commandment. to not have uh or the second commandment to not make any graven images that That's kind of an absolute statement.
That's not in order to worship it. It is. You can't do it right, so therefore you shouldn't. And there's an argument.
Well, and he also argues too that we just there's a human tendency to identify with depictions and that it's unnecessarily dangerous. Like, there's just no reason to put yourself in that position. I never took his argument seriously until I watched the first Chronicles of Narnia movie because you know, you, you, you, you felt an affinity for Aslan.
Well, no, you imagine Aslan. as you read the books, and he's larger than anything. than can be portrayed. Of course, we spend a lot of time. with young Kids Listening to the focus on the family chronicles and Narnia series, which is just epic.
I mean, all the radio dramas that focus on the family. Has ever done really have been excellent. And the Narnia one's really, really good. And the voice is really powerful and that sort of stuff. But then when you have to portray him, it shrunk him.
Aslan was shrunk in the movies, right?
So Now, listen, I don't think there's a... That's not an unforgivable sin to portray Aslan, right? That's an artistic choice. But God makes a statement, and J.I. Packer thinks that the meaning of that statement is you just don't do it because you won't be able to do it right.
And to your point, you'll have a tendency to identify with it.
So, like, even now, think about it. Have you seen any other Narnia movies? Oh, yeah.
So, when you think of Narnia now, even when you read it to your kids, that's what you picture. Yeah. I know. It's unfortunate. You can't think of Gandalf, right?
Without. Seeing what's his name? What was it? I forget the actor's name. I'm going to get shake now for forgetting.
I think it's the guy who played Dumbledore. I don't remember. Not Ian McKellen. Yeah, I don't think it was the singer that played Dumbledore.
Now you're going to get us more hate mail. You think of Professor Snape this way. And this is the argument against trying to image God.
So I think in a different context, we'd be having a different conversation about. you know, kind of goofy Christian art and and it was really sappy. And that sappiness is not the same thing as spirituality and holiness, but we're not because. We're having a conversation about something far more important, which is something that the Bible takes as seriously as anything. And that is Stepping onto God's holiness, appropriating God, claiming something that belongs.
only to him. And we can do that in kind of image we can do that by Braggadocio, we can do that by Kind of claiming to be able to do something that only God can actually pull off. And in a sense, all three of those things were represented. in that one image that was posted, even if it was kind of a goofy, silly, sappy sort of image. I Do you want to say one thing, and this is kind of the I think this is the definition of A kind of gaslighting.
If I'm right, you can tell me if I'm wrong. But Even at the end of the week.
Well, let me back up. The re the reason I I knew about it, because I don't I'm not on true social and I don't actually pay a whole lot of attention. And I was watching the Ma The Masters, which was an epic final day for Roy McElroy last Sunday when all this kind of hit the news. And I was watching it with my son, and it was the first time he was super interested in it.
So, like, I was caring about other things. But I knew about this from the sheer amount of condemnations of it. By people. that are Known to be supporters of the President, accused of being psycho uh, sycophants for him. never condemning him, you know, doing whatever he wants.
believing whatever he says, uh supporting whatever he does. And that was not the case. There was a loud. Universal. I'm sure there were some outliers.
of of people who, you know, um did not take it seriously. But There was You know, just widespread condemnation of it. And then at the end of the week, you hear, well, like, oh. He did this and no one cared. He did this and no one said anything.
They did. I was actually quite pleased by that. I was quite pleased by the number of voices that otherwise support his policies and so on. that were universally Condemning this kind of act of doing that. And I think that's an important thing because.
First of all, it's not what's being reported. Second, some people do believe the excuse that he made that he thought he was portraying himself as a doctor.
Some people don't. It's a stretch for me, honestly, but I don't know. As a doctor, I wouldn't like that either, but. Right. I mean, yeah, yeah, I don't know if that makes it any less goofy.
But but I do think that that's an important part of the story. The reason that we have to be serious about this, even if it's a goofy picture. Is because God's really serious about this in scripture. Like, this is not, you just don't do this, you just don't claim that sort of thing. I mean, Like, we've all read that passage in the Old Testament, right?
When the portrayal or the embodiment of God's holiness was the ark. And the ark was brought into battle in the Old Testament when it ought not be And then it was returned and a guy was just and it it wasn't being carried the right way, so it wasn't been taken seriously. And a well meaning guy reached up to balance the the ark so that it wouldn't fall off the cart. and he was struck dead. It's just like intention is irrelevant when it comes to stealing God's holiness or stepping on God's holiness, according to the biblical witness.
Like, this is a big, big deal. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Like, spiritually, there's no argument to be had. That's absolutely true. I think blasphemy, my understanding theologically, is it can go two ways: it can be either appropriating God's glory onto yourself or attributing to God something that He did not say or do.
Right. So and I take those both equally seriously. I think the biblical story has several examples of that. My gut instinct when this kind of first erupted earlier this week was that, and my honest hope is that later. The biggest takeaway of this story was that this was a social media story.
And that this was something that happened on social media, something that felt big on social media. And then, you know, I have no, I believe, as you're saying, this was big in the life of probably Donald Trump. Like, this is not something I would have wanted to do and would want to have on my spiritual scorecard. Like, God have mercy on me if I ever do something like this. I don't mean to downplay blasphemy.
But I feel like for the country and the world and the time that we're in. It just feels like this is avoidable. If we can take our own advice at some level and just try and distance ourselves from these. Eruptions. It's so tempting because it does feel important.
And it feels especially important when everyone knows about it. And everyone knows about it. You were right, everyone knows about it. But is it possible for us to get back to a place where somebody posting an absolutely tacky, like just disgusting AI generated whatever this was. Just goes under the radar.
Maybe not because it's the president. But is there a future where that's something that just is just a blip? I mean, it should. And at least part of this story is living in an era where you're, again, it's demanded of you to say something about everything, and commentators have to say something about everything. And we live in an environment where people are looking for this.
And the president has a history of. Misspeaking about the Christianity that he claims to be the greatest protector of in history.
So. There's there's an alignment of this incident with, you know, kind of previous things that the man has said and that you know, he has done. And at the same time he's had moments of humility. I mean, we all kind of wondered after the attempted assassination. What would this do?
And There's a long history, too, by the way. I think it's an important thing to note. There were African American church choirs singing songs that would border on this kind of blasphemy about President Obama. There was an image created of President Obama as Jesus, and it was very, very popular. And it went around.
There is a difference between someone doing that about you and you sharing it of yourself. I mean, you know, that's the other step that was taken. But you know The ways that we fall short of the glory of God, to quote St. Paul. are many.
And If this could be something good, it should be a reminder to take seriously the glory of God. to the level that God Himself takes it. And let me give you a couple examples. I had a well-meaning Sunday school teacher. Who once said that That God created us because He needed us.
Now She meant well. That's heresy. That's a blasphemous statement. I'm not calling her a blasphemer destined for hell or anything like that because she was a really awesome lady. And I do think it matters, but that's not a true statement about God.
Uh by the way, that's something that you would hear people repeat. in kind of pop evangelicalism as well. Uh and some worship songs and church billboards. I think another statement, for example, that compromises the glory of God that I've heard before. which is, the most important thing to God is us.
No. The most important thing to God is God. And it's because God keeps the most important thing, the most important thing, that he can properly love us. If the most important thing to God were us, God would be an idolater. And I know that's kind of a flip around of logic, but this is the math.
God is not an idolater to put God first because God is first. He is first in the universe. And There's just such a seriousness about it. throughout Holy Scripture from the Old Testament. through the New Testament.
to the description of you know um in revelation of of how every thing even when all hell is breaking loose on earth There is this demand of reverence and honor and worship to God. And that's what. That's what, that's just what happens. You see it in Isaiah, I saw the Lord, and then I'm like.
Well, I'm dead meat. That's that's the translation of that, right? Like And it all is about God's holiness.
So I hope it's a lesson for all of us. It's not something that. that we should take lightly. There's a reason that it's a big sin. Agree with Packer's take that we should never kind of try to artistically represent Jesus or.
or something like that. Obviously You can't artistically really represent God in any sort of meaningful sense. I mean, the best we got, I think, is Michelangelo's. You know, the finger, you know, that's about as good as you can get. You're like, the rest of it is just imagination because no one has any glimpse or any sense of it.
I don't fully go there, but I but I do take seriously The warning, I guess, that that is embedded in Packers Take. which is that don't take this lightly. And I think that's the good lesson for us.
Well, this is a helpful place to start the next thing I want to talk with you about because. You know, there is a kind of murkiness around the role of the Pope. In terms of speaking for God or speaking on behalf of God or being the representative of Peter or the representative of the church in the world. And I don't claim to fully understand how that is thought out in the Catholic Church. But there is growing tension between the Pope and our administration over particularly the activities in Iran.
And so a couple of weeks ago, Pope Leo. Spoke notably after, you know, I think we had launched our military action in Iran and said that Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. And he spoke about being a peacemaker and being peace-loving. This happened around the same time as he turned down an invite for a physical visit to the Pentagon or to the Capitol. here in DC, and the invitation was made.
On behalf of, like, it's America's 250th birthday, and you are the first American pope, so this is a good time to invite the pope. And he said no to a visit, which. You know, I think you could plausibly say, you know, it was for other reasons, but people took it because of the timing to be a reflection of this growing tension over the president's actions in Iran. Of course, the president has responded since then and kind of claimed responsibility for Pope Leo becoming the Pope and called into question his authority. It's just, it's a difficult situation.
But I mean, the New York Times this week had a piece on what is just war theory in the Christian tradition.
So it is. At least sparking a conversation about how do we think about this. And I think it's easy to be cynical and say, the Pope does not have the same responsibility as the leader of the United States military, so he's not facing the same pressures. But depending on how you look at him theologically, he is ob obviously a very important voice on world matters, including this. And he guides a lot of Christians around the world in their thinking about just war and how we move into our aggression.
So I guess what I'm asking is, whose side are you on, John? Oh, honestly, I got to say, that's the least interesting part of this. whole thing for me. I just got, I mean, because at one level, it's like, well. the Pope belongs to the Vatican.
He has a role as the head of a church. The president I mean, it's just to me, that was just such an odd thing. And I will say one thing that I think needs to be said, because some people equated the the harsh uh lengthy post that he that the president put out about the pope and not being a fan and and so on. And equated that with this, you know, posting an image of himself as Jesus. And there's no such thing in Christian theology as blaspheming the Pope.
I just want to say that. Disrespecting? Yeah. Did he cross that line? Probably.
But it's not the same thing. You can disagree with the Pope and not be guilty of violating the first and second commandment. You can't do that with Jesus and you can't do that with God.
So I just felt like there was some a good bit of murkiness about that whole thing when you heard it reported. And maybe I'm just kind of nut picking here from the conversation that was had on CNN on with Abby Johnson. Last night about this because there was just some ways of saying, Well, he, how dare he do that?
Well, same way I would do it. I mean, I'm about to do it. What the Pope said about just war theory is wrong. according to just war theory. And I think that it's actually wrong according to a Christian worldview.
I think to say that God does not hear the prayers of people who wage war creates an awful lot of problems throughout history. Is there not a good guy and a bad guy when you're talking about warring against the Nazis? Is there not a good guy and a bad guy when you're talking about what Pope John Paul II did in standing up against the Communist regime?
Now, maybe he's not waging war in that sense, but he definitely took sides. I mean, I think the charitable read, he could plausibly say. Those were people who were acting in defense, which, of course, brings up lots of questions about the current situation. I get it. But maybe he's differentiating in a strange way as well.
Well, he didn't. He wasn't careful with it. And I think a lot of people have said that, including a lot of Catholic theologians. I think there's a selectiveness here, including the three Catholic bishops that got on and talked about. And people called it unprecedented.
And I think, wow, that is an interesting choice because you're right, it is unprecedented for these three Catholic bishops to get on and clarify Catholic teaching for the whole world and for the media to give Them kind of a platform for that. You know what three Catholic bishops have never gotten on and talked about? Is the evil of abortion and the slaughtering of innocent blood that way? In other words, I don't think it's wrong to disagree with the Pope. And I think the Pope got this one wrong.
If God doesn't hear the prayers. Of those who wage war, which is what he said, then what does that do to Moses? And what does that do to Joshua? And what does that do to the judges protecting the? I mean, there's just, there's just, it was just a bizarre thing.
Now, listen, are there Catholics that don't buy into just war theory? Absolutely. Is there a case to be made that this Conflict. uh doesn't meet the criteria Yeah, there is a case to be made. We made the case that it does.
I think that there's been some violations in how it's being waged. I don't know that any conflict, once you're talking about something as awful and terrible as war, will ever bat a thousand against just war theory. But you know, it's okay. To disagree with the Pope. I thought the way he did it was disrespectful.
But I'm much more interested in the conversation about just war because it's so. real life. conflict and if there is not a justification to use force. At some point, with those who, according to Holy Scripture, have been invested with a certain level of power. And responsibility for protection, right?
Those are the two things. The emperor does not bear the sword in vain, and the purpose of the state is to protect those from evildoers and to punish the evildoers. I mean, that is just clear.
Well, how does that work out in the real world? If God never hears the prayer of Uh, if no war is ever just, I mean, how does How does that work itself out?
So, to me, I don't really have a whole lot of thoughts about the conflict between. the Pope and the President other than I think it's okay to disagree with the Pope. That's the most interesting part of it. And I, you know, this probably betrays your week from now, you're going to get on here and not say that I'm right again.
So we'll just.
Well, okay, so I think this betrays both your and I's, you know, theological leanings, I guess. But I think this is one of those problems that naturally arises. It's an inherent. Tension that is ultimately unavoidable. When you've you occupy a position that claims to be a mediator between the rest of men and God.
I just think that that's on a at some point you're going to have to make big claims.
Well, you're not wrong. You're also, you could add to that when you have a church that is in and of itself kind of a state, right? I mean, you talk about Vatican City and it has its own leadership, its own police, its own everything else. I mean, there are a lot of ways that these kind of clear, fast lines that maybe we're more comfortable with or maybe have more merit in a Protestant world, we would struggle to understand how that is.
So I think you got a valid point there. It's still not that interesting to me. I'm just, it is interesting. I just, to me, I just think that the just work conversation is so important. I mean, thank God that we have someone like.
Aquinas, who started to wrestle through this and try to wrestle through this relationship. And he was trying to grant to some degree. an understanding of what the scripture says that the Leaders need to bear the sword. Like it's actually a responsibility. I truly think, too, I don't mean this tritely at all, that this should bring us to our knees in gratitude that most of us are not in charge of making these decisions practically.
I mean, I'm just really thankful for that. And that's not me putting on a spiritual pedestal anybody who is responsible for that. I'm just truly to my bones thankful that I'm yeah.
Well, that's good because it's way easier to get on a podcast and talk about them every week. No, I think it's just as hard. It's just as hard. Yeah, it's just as hard. The struggle's real.
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John, we're going to continue with some of these deeper theological questions. There was another. Let's call it interesting take that arose on the sort of the social media podcast circuit this week when Tucker Carlson made the claim. And he put it in kind of conspiratorial language: like, those in charge don't want you to know this or something. Did you know that Muslims love Jesus too?
And he said, that's why you saw these clerics who were also denouncing that image that President Trump posted on Truth Social. And they hail him, they hail Jesus as a prophet who's going to return and defeat the Antichrist. I'm not sure exactly what the point was of this post. Then again, I think some of the conspiratorial leanings of like, don't believe everything they tell you and Muslims love Jesus too. But let me put the question to you.
Do Muslims love Jesus too? Muslims love a guy that they call Jesus. It's not the same Jesus as we're talking about. It's the same thing when we made the case, I think, a few weeks ago, although obviously there's a difference, dramatic difference between Mormonism and Islam. But we're talking about the same sort of relationship to Christianity.
It's like same vocabulary, different dictionary. Same name, different dude. And we're not just not talking about the same guy. I mean, the Jesus that's described in the Quran did not get crucified. The Jesus that described In the Quran is not the chosen one, the Son of God, the second member of the Trinity.
He's a prophet. He's of no greater moral status than Muhammad. In fact, Muhammad is the one who comes and explains what is true that Jesus actually. Said and did.
So we're just not talking about the same thing. You can't say Jesus is God, Jesus is not God, and then say we're talking about the same Jesus. That's just kind of the punchline. I thought This was a fascinating story for a number of levels because we are coming out of this. We've talked about kind of the the 90s and Kind of One thing that characterized the 90s was the new atheism.
The other thing was this coexist nonsense, right? And the bumper stickers. The bumper sticker, right? And where. Basically, it's this idea that we all worship the same God, we just call him by different names, or we're all trying to get to the top of the mountain, we're taking different paths to get there.
Stephen Turner and his satirical poem Creed, which should be my recommendation today because that's one of these classic things that was written back in the 80s. And he basically said he has this kind of whole satirical take on how ridiculous we are. And he goes, We believe that all religions are the same. At least that one we read was, they all believe in love and goodness. They just differ on matters of God, sin, heaven, hell, and salvation.
You know, you're just the definition of love, but sure. In Jesus. And so the point is, is that I just think that there's a way to come out of that. I'm not sure, again, what Tucker Carlson meant. And honestly, again, to me, this is the least interesting part of this.
Mainly because it is an interesting theological question. And I just want to point out. How much theology has been present in each of these stories? You know, in other words, it's been a big week for theology. I agree.
Well, I think every week's a big week for theology. You know, maybe that's the case I'm trying to make. Is that actually what you believe about? I used to say this to my students that philosophically, There are beliefs that you have. and the importance of a belief.
is not How important it is to you, right? Like, I have a very important belief. about the Duke Blue Devils each and every March Madness. Turns out that the last two years, that has been a flawed belief that I've had that the Duke Blue Devils are actually going to break through because they've had the greatest freshmen in the country for two years in a row, but they didn't pull it off. That's a very important belief to me.
But philosophers talk about controlling beliefs. In other words, there are also beliefs that you have that control you, that hold you. Another way to put this is my friend Rod Thompson in Australia taught me this about worldview, that a worldview is not the one that you have. Your worldview is the one that has you. Right, the one that kind of holds you.
And God is a controlling belief. God is an essential belief. What you believe about God. Is In a very real sense, what you believe about everything else, what you believe about the universe, what you believe about sin, salvation, heaven, God. Uh and and and yourself and I think each of the stories is so interesting.
Like, theology is at the bottom of it all. You just keep chipping away. And you get the theology. I think that's so cool. I'm just thinking now about my reaction.
I just loved the tenor of the New York Times story that I referenced earlier where they were like talking about just war theory. And, you know, there's a Catholic tradition going back to St. Augustine about it had the tenor of like a, one of those did you know, or like a children's informational, like, did you know that Christians have actually thought and written about? And it made me think that maybe one of the most surprising things, like if I could communicate anything about Christianity to the wider world, particularly the secular world in the West right now, maybe it wouldn't be so much like a catechism on how I view human sexuality or like a specific issue, but it would just be what you just said. Like, did you know that what I believe about the Lord actually impacts everything else I believe?
Like, there is this idea that Christianity is in a small, it's like in my lunchbox over here. And I carry it with me and it's like a necklace I put on. Like it's just something I carry with me every once in a while. And people are continuously shocked to learn that Christians actually apply that to every other area of their life and everything they're thinking about and everything that's happening to us. You're making me think of the.
Great moment last night on the CNN program that I was watching about some of these conversations with Abby Phillip. You know, there was just this kind of real posturing from those on the left. How could the president? Disagree with the Pope. I mean, the Pope is the one who tells us what's true.
And one of them is like, I'm not a good Catholic, but as a Catholic, I mean, the Pope is the, you know. And then Scott Jennings says, Really? Did you know that the Pope was against abortion and same-sex marriage? You just made me think of that incident just because the selectivity. I mean, and listen, we're all good at it.
We're all good at wanting parts of this and not all of it. But I I just uh I I just think it's It is a fascinating thing. And it also is an imperative for us. We gotta work to get God right. You know, we have to work to think correctly about God.
A. W. Tozer says this. He says, what you think about God is the most important thing about you. And because it is that kind of a controlling belief.
Now, sometimes we don't think a lot about God. And that in and of itself is really important because then we think that our beliefs are just our own, as if they're not coming from somewhere else, as if they're not tethered. To somewhere else. I will just say. I listen to so many non-Christian podcasts.
I will never say which ones and I will never recommend them. And I'm sorry to everyone who's disappointed in me for that, but I just do on everything from like health to parenting, just all kinds of stuff. And I have sensed a general move towards back towards the kind of coexist, like, you know, for a while there, it was pretty touch and go, like, we hate Christians unequivocally. Like, you can't be a Christian and be a good person. And I have sensed this move back towards like, well, Christians are just like us.
They just have their cute little beliefs that they carry around and everybody has their little stories and their myths that help them get through the day or whatever. And in some ways, that's a positive development. I would rather be condescended to than murdered, I suppose. But at the same time, it does make me want to shout like, no, you don't understand what this isn't an accessory. I'm not just, it's not a thing I add into my daily diet.
Like it's actually how I see the world. I think that's going to have to be a. bigger part of our witness these days. You mean like like a world view? Yeah, I believe in that stuff.
Oh, worldview. It's almost like you should go through a program about worldview. You know, it's almost. It's almost like something like that. But no, there there's a um And it's not just whether you choose to do it or not.
What we're trying to say here is that it actually is that way, right? In other words, this is the importance of a God belief. And it also should take us deeper than kind of the silliness. I think that there is a powerful response, you know. To this idea that we all worship the same God, it just looks differently on the outside.
It's that. Actually, we worship very different. Understandings of who God is, and it changes everything. And honestly, kind of the religious stuff just kind of looks similar on the outside. Essentially, we're talking about fundamentally different sorts of things.
At some level, once you add up all the individual elements, it becomes the thing itself, right?
So. I actually want to talk about this right now because Another Christian theologian was I interviewed recently, N.T. Wright, and was talking about. His belief that Adam and Eve, for example, and ostensibly other Old Testament characters, he said something like they were human-like characters. He was calling into question whether you really need to believe.
In the historicity of that story in particular, in order to believe in Christian theology? This is a common question that. Comes up frequently for a lot of people talking about, did it really take six days to create the world? How important is it, John, to take literally, I guess, in that sense, some of those Old Testament details that are difficult? Yeah, well, and was it just.
Adam and Eve, although I think that's a big one. He was talking also about Jonah and that story. Did that actually happen or was that a myth? Job, that's an interesting one. Job's maybe the oldest.
Work of literature in the oldest book that's in the Bible, and it comes across in a Kind of epic, poetic sort of way.
So, was Job actually a person, or is this a story? That is being included in scripture to make people think about God in a particular way. Uh, I think I was trying to remember the other one. Oh, Moses was the other one that that NT Wright. First of all, talk about N.T.
Wright. He's a. Is perhaps one of the great New Testament scholars of our generation while also being ordained and a pastor. A priest in the Anglican or in the sorry yeah, in the Anglican church in the UK. He has been very influential in shaping theology.
He has been very helpful. in helping Christians read the Bible as a singular story. His academic struggles, I would say. Are that he's in this high-level academic space that just doesn't take these things seriously? And so there always is this tendency, I think, to try to explain in a way.
Or not or try to not you know, believe something that the kind of the wider academy believes is is foolish. That said, we need to also understand that the Bible doesn't ask us to. Take every story that it tells as being Historical. Let me give you an example before everybody loses their minds. I think, for example, there's a real debate.
Jesus tells a story. about Lazarus. and the rich man. And not the Lazarus he raises from the dead, but the leper. And he tells a story.
Now, many people look at that and say, he's talking about somebody real. How do we know? Because Jesus tells a lot of parables, but he never names anybody, but he names this guy, so this might be a real. This must be a real thing. I think that's a very interesting thought.
He doesn't name characters, so it might very well be historical. Is it a matter of like Doctrinal fidelity, whether you think Lazarus was a real person or Jesus is telling a parable and he just happens to use the name this time? No. The Bible doesn't give us that level of clarity on this. I would even argue with Job.
It's a challenge. Like, maybe there isn't kind of an epic feel to that. Maybe Joe was a real person. And, you know, this is kind of the historical retelling in a very poetic and fictional way. have a lot of these interactions.
I don't think the Bible rests anything essential on that. Where you get to a real problem. But although I think, and I think it's okay if Joe, let me say this: if Job wasn't a real person. Everything that Job teaches us about evil, about suffering, about God's authority, about Satan's limitations that are essential. It is just as true.
And not only that, but you remember that You know, most Job's the only book in the Bible where most of it's nonsense. And here's how you know: because most of it is his three friends saying stuff. And at the end of them saying stuff, God shows up and goes, Who are these people that have been speaking all this nonsense? Could you imagine if God just showed up after your sermon and was like, Yeah, that was nonsense? I mean, that's kind of what happened.
He actually says, Who has the who is the I think it goes like this? Who is this that has darkened my counsel using words without knowledge? That's yeah. I mean, what if you said that to somebody? You just use words without knowledge, kiddo.
Um So the next time I call into a podcast, I'm going to say that. Yeah, that's right.
Somebody's going to send us that comment. You guys use words with that much. But here's another layer, though, and this is what applies directly to Adam and Eve, and it applies directly to Moses, and it applies directly to Jonah. By the way, to be clear, N.T. Wright was not questioning the historicity of Moses.
He thinks that there's Plenty of evidence for that. Jesus talks about Jonah as if he was a real person. Jesus absolutely talks about Adam and Eve as if they were real people. When you start Questioning the existence. Of a real Adam and Eve, you're actually.
Questioning The biblical At the very least the Gospel accounts of what Jesus said and did. And now you're in dangerous, dangerous Jesus Seminar territory. And Jesus Simeter. was this group of very progressive scholars that would sit around and vote. Oh, yeah, Jesus said this.
Oh, no. And the idea was: let's get to the Jesus that actually existed by telling us what you think. Like by saying, this is what I don't think Jesus, who cares what you think Jesus would have said or not said. We actually have, so at the end of the day, this comes down to a question of authority. And does the Bible have a level of authority even over the telling of history?
The Bible is very clear that some parts of it are historical. And when you question those things that are very clearly historical. You got a real problem on your hands. It undermines the foundations. It's a question of authority.
And at some level, you're putting yourself. And your ability to Believe it? Right. You're putting yourself, I think, over the text, and we have to be under the text. Anytime the Bible says that Jesus believes something, we should believe it too.
Let's just put it that way. Yeah, agreed. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with more Breakpoint this week. Educators, join us in Colorado Springs June 15th through the 17th for the 2026 Rooted Educators Worldview Summit.
This year's theme is created and called Biblical Anthropology for Christian Education. We'll hear from John Stone Street, Sean McDowell, Megan Allman, Elizabeth Urbanowitz, and more. Save $50 when you register by March 31st with the code Rooted 50. Register at colsoneducators.org slash rooted. That's colsoneducators.org slash rooted.
We're back on breakpoint this week.
Well, John, a little bit ago you said something that just got my ears tingling because I was hoping we would be able to get to this topic that I'm about to introduce, and it just. Led into it so beautifully. You said that worldview, particularly what you believe about God, is a controlling belief. That this belief tends to influence everything else that you do and your behavior, the way you interpret every other event in your life. I think that's.
Unavoidably true. There is a new book by a scientist who studies pain. And this is something I think she has revealed. I want to talk with you about how we think about pain, and actually, even how theology and worldview can interact with pain. But her thesis, and one of the reasons I love reading books like this.
Is because I think when there are earnest seekers, I don't mean spiritual seekers, but people earnestly studying science. With an open mind, which is somewhat rare in our moment, but they exist. And when you find them and read them. You will Unavoidably, find people stumbling on truths that the scriptures have already taught about. And that's just one of my happy places.
I love nothing more than to read, like, it's almost the same feeling I get when I read about some archaeological dig that has found something that just absolutely confirms a biblical story. And so this woman is studying pain, and one of the things she, her drumbeat is, her name is Rachel Zofnes. And she has a new book out called, I think it's called Show Me Where It Hurts. And one of the things she's exploring is the relationship between Not just biological pain, so like you break a bone and then a chemical gets sent to your brain that tells you that it hurts. But the emotional and the social and the like the physiological components of pain and Her major drumbeat is What you believe.
About what has happened to you or what's going on around you has a really outsized impact on what you feel. how you like what you think is happening to you. I'm just going to share a super brief story that she shared, and then I want to turn it over to you to make some theological connections for us. But one of the craziest stories she shares is about this construction worker who, you know, jumped off of a small, like four-foot platform or something and landed on a seven-inch nail, and he saw the nail go into his boot, right? And it's just immediate ex Excruciating.
Exactly. Exactly. Excruciating pain. You know, all of his coworkers just in horror, they call 911, an ambulance gets him. They take him to the emergency room.
They give him opiates because he's in an incredible amount of pain. They start to take off his uniform, all this stuff. They take the boot off. The nail had missed his foot. It went between his toes.
Incredibly lucky. But he legitimately felt that pain. And her argument is he was not faking it. But he was using a lot of the other stimulus around him to tell himself a story of what had just happened. He saw the nail.
He saw his boot go on it. He saw his coworkers' reactions. All of that was leading to, in this case, a controlling belief about what had just happened. And that influenced his. Pain.
And then, in the same, you know, same vein, there was another construction worker using a nail gun. It misfired. He watched the nail. go across the room and like embed in the wall. But the gun ricocheted and hit him in the jaw.
And so, for like a week, he had a sore jaw. He kept taking Tylenol. A week later, he's like, I got to go to the dentist. I feel like my jaw is out of joint. He gets an x-ray, there's a nail in his jaw.
He did not feel it because he did not think it had happened.
So, there's a lot of nuance here. Like, there's obviously unequivocal pain that you really can't avoid, there's a biological component. But to me, the spiritual takeaway here is again, what you believe influences so much. About what you see and feel, and how you experience the world. I think this has.
incredibly profound implications. Not just theologically, but for things that we talk about all the time, for gender theory. for the way we approach Um mental health and therapy and like how Abigail Schreier talks about iatrogenesis. Implicitly teach young people that you're fragile emotionally and that. You need to be in safe spaces all the time, and that life is really hard and scary.
That becomes true for you. Because the stories we tell ourselves matter so much. What do you think?
Well, it seems true to you and it can yeah, it doesn't become true.
Sorry, I'm gonna be grumpy about that just because hold on, but this is what I'm saying. You can you're you're right, it is perception. But those things impact your life, right? No, yeah, I'm not gonna guess that. I mean, you can just think about, you know, kind of phantom pain, right?
Yeah, she brought that up too. Yeah, I mean that that's a that's a fascinating thing as well. Um I don't know how to make theological sense of those two stories. That's pretty wild. But you can also talk about the difference that it does make.
Doctor-assisted suicide, for example, is sold to us on the basis of physical pain. of what we know now, In Oregon, in Colorado, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, is that it's almost universally chosen. for psychological pain, not physical pain. And also physical pain is intrinsically connected to psychological pain. Sure.
Yeah. But I mean, in terms of the the the the it's just the way it's sold it's just sold one way and and and it has to do with another. And we also know too, like, um. the unbearable pain, which is there's so much nomenclature that's used around that.
Well, that's a very, very subjective thing, right? I mean, we all know people. who are just they have this incredible pain tolerance. And can live with an amazing amount of suffering. I think of Johnny Erickson Tata, for example.
And then you know people who ha actually have had a pretty cushy life and It's like the worst thing all the time. Very, very fragile.
So there's something in here about fragility. I do think though that a biblical worldview of pain to me is all is fascinating. I never thought about this. Until I had an extended conversation with a young earth creationist who's a. A very well-credentialed, in fact, probably the most highly academically credentialed young earth creationist on the planet.
A guy named Dr. Kurt Wise used to be a colleague of mine. And he introduced this idea of in the biblical story of where pain fits. It's tempting for us, and maybe this plays into it psychologically. Maybe somebody will figure this out at some point.
We think about pain as a result of the fall. And it is the result of the fall, but it's not part of the curse. Within the biblical story, there are consequences for our uh the actions of our first parents. Judgment. But there are also accommodations.
Acts of God's Grace.
So we often say, well, what was What happened when Adam and Eve sinned?
Well, you know, now, you know, we have death and we have pain and childbirth and they got kicked out of the garden. When you look at the text, it seems to me that getting kicked out of the garden was actually weigh more about God's grace. Because actually what he says is Ah, let's not let them go back into the garden. Because if they do and eat the tree of life, they'll live forever. And you get this sense where God's like, they should not live forever in sin like that, whatever that means.
is is is is I don't want that to happen.
So there's an act of mercy happening. Think about what What mercy pain is? Right? Pain is a mercy. Because if you actually do get hurt, you should know it.
If you did get really hurt and you didn't know it, That's actually That's actually And there's actually conditions like that, right, where people don't sense pain and they can get really, really, you know, badly hurt. There's also situations, though, where... You know, I have some friends who have had back surgery. And basically, you're just like, we're going to basically disconnect as many pain receptors as we can because. You already know 30 years into this that your back is messed up and we can't make it any better.
So the pain, you know. You you may not be able to walk, but you don't need this much pain. I think that's a all this is a fascinating thing to think about theologically because. It seems to me that within a Christian worldview, there there's an explanation. for the existence of pain that's pretty compelling.
The the necess the necessity of pain. In a world in which bad things happen. Maybe you could argue that. We lived in a perfect world, you know. That obviously we wouldn't need that sense.
But then there's also this level of human Independence of I think is what you're trying to say, like perceiving And feeling even pain and like what what that fit, you know, where that fits in I think there's maybe there's a theological difference between, like, what you're saying is a difference between. pain as a sensation and suffering. And I think suffering comes in. I think there's absolutely a difference between pain and suffering. Yes.
And I think you could argue biblically that suffering. is Pain coupled with futility. Right. And I think that that is one of the gifts. Of you know, believing the true story of the world, which is Even though there is certainly Pain.
There is no futile pain. For Christians, there's no feudal pain for anybody, but if you choose to see it that way, because you refuse to see the picture of the world that God has created and the revelation He's given us. It's going to hurt more. That's just my whole drumbeat. Everything's going to hurt.
When you. When sometimes when I think about worldview, I think about like you you could climb a muddy mountain in flip-flops or you can climb it in In all terrain boots or whatever. You're going to get to the top either way. You're going to be. A human, no matter what you do, you could survive on the earth even if you live really badly and you refuse to believe in the Lord.
but you can make it way harder and more painful for yourself. And I think one of the ways we do that is by refusing to see That everything the Lord gives each of us individually has a meaning and purpose. Even if I am never able to show you the mathematical proof on paper why this pain directly served me or served people around me. And I've always loved that about Johnny Eric Santata: I don't think she's ever You know, tried to make the full case that she knows exactly why this happened to her and exactly what good this is done, and like the full picture of it. She just believes that God is good, which means this has a purpose and that it's for her good and that He will help her through it, and that there will be a day when the sensation of pain is not there anymore.
Sorry, just because you mentioned her, I've just, you know, she's one of the people that. I consider it a just An incredible honor to know. And Every time I've interviewed her from the very, very first time, which happened to be the same weekend. that Chuck Coulson collapsed and ended up going to the hospital and died about a month later.
So we even just had this. Kind of long term. connection. And every time she she does both. She talks about how she can't wait.
to run up and of the Lord Jesus. To to run and jump. But also that she wouldn't give back her wheelchair. right now. And I don't know how and somehow that how she goes in and out of those two what seem like opposites.
It doesn't seem contradictory. It actually seems to make a lot of sense. And can I just say, too, that that's why I think the book of Job is so... incredible. People have talked about just the brilliance of it.
I mean, you can mathematically try to walk through this and quantify it, or you can. put it in the context of a larger story. And that's what Scripture does. Scripture does that with pain and suffering. The suffering of Jesus is what is going to remove suffering from the world.
I also just thought it was fascinating that in this researcher's study, she found that. like physical pain, people's reports of pain. is markedly worse when they're alone. And that to me is just another sign of the way we were made. I mean, and we've known for a long time, like.
People who live alone don't live as long as people who are married or who live in community with other people. And you just I mean even on an individual instance basis your pain just feels less And I think that just makes so much sense. It's less scary. You don't feel like you're carrying it on your own, which is because the Lord made us to not be alone. Yeah, that's another aspect of it, too.
So, maybe the punchline, I mean, I don't, there's been a lot of treatises on evil and suffering. It's interesting. Obviously, Lewis wrote the problem of pain. But he was really, in a sense, talking about suffering. But pain being a good thing.
And I I think he addresses that some, but It would be interesting for somebody to tackle that because There there are so many things that pain shows us about who we are. That then have to be explained, right? You know, to your point, the relationality part of it, the the isolation part of it. You know, Nietzsche wrestled with this a little bit. You know, he said, if you have a why, Then you can live.
with almost any I think he said how, but i in a sense you could also say what, right? You know, people can go through an awful lot. if they're doing it for somebody, you know. in it for something else.
something bigger. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I think about that with childbirth all the time. I mean, obviously very painful, but I wouldn't even bring that up. There's not as much fear with it, right?
Okay, so I've just always been fascinated by that because. In childbirth, there's just not as much fear as with most other kinds of physical pain, at least in my life, because I know exactly what's happening and I know what it's for. And it is when you don't have as much fear, everything is just the temperature is lower. It's magic. I don't know what it is.
It's magic. I've watched it four times. The first time was 31 hours. And you just, and I, and I realized like right off the bat, like. There was, she locked in.
Like, I just watched my wife locked in. And there's something about. About payment They're looking at that kind of pain that tells the difference between men and women, and that there's actually a fundamental difference. I mean, seriously, like men can endure probably more pain. But not that long.
We don't have that kind of long-term endurance. Because then we can probably take a bigger hit. you know, a bigger punch to the face immediately. But man, two or three of those contraction things, we would just be grabbing a knife to take the baby out ourselves, right? I mean, we would just be like, it's over, we're going to wrap this up.
But there was this endurance. You know, and you know, my wife be the first to tell you she's a scaredy cat with pain. You know, but Isn't that fascinating? I mean, like, if I if I experienced that kind of pain and wasn't pregnant, I can't imagine how like how it would be multiplied in my brain. If I was like, what's happening to me?
And, you know, I couldn't figure out a reason for it and I didn't know what to do with it. That's a whole other thing. But I think you're right. It can be very beautiful. John, before we sign off, let's get to a couple questions if we can.
One of them I thought was really interesting, especially because we just talked about, you know, earlier in the show, just war theory and our actions in Iran. We talked last week about President Trump's comment. About ending a civilization, that that's what he was threatening in Iran. And we talked about whether that was wise and what it could have meant. And I think you and I both just kind of condemned that language as not part of just war theory.
This questioner, I think, is a fair question. They wrote, As difficult as it might be to say or hear, isn't there a time when it may be actually a good thing to end the civilization, like the evil civilization that the Nazis had built in the 30s? Or the God-ordered ending of the extremely evil Canaanite civilization described in the Old Testament. Yeah, I mean, listen, the least important part of this question is what counts as a civilization or not.
So, you know, that was the first thing: not every culture is a civilization, not every country is a civilization. It'd be hard to argue with Iran, given how old it is and kind of the. the tie of it. But I but I think you could argue that this particular expression of Iran is dates directly back to the seventies and it's been locked in and it hasn't been influen So but whether or not it counts as a civilization is not really the question that's being asked. Is there a time to die?
Is there a time to be killed? And according to Ecclesiastes, there is. What we were doing is, I think, measuring this according to just war theory, and just war theory has to incorporate a. first of all, a reduction in civilian loss as much as is absolutely possible. Even if it costs more, even if it takes longer, you have to protect civilians.
And then also that you want to wrap it up as quickly as possible. And you have a proportionate response.
So, according to just war theory, it is that's not something that can happen. Uh apparently though, you know, you think about Daniel's dream. And, you know, with the statue and the various civilizations, and that was basically a prophecy of these civilizations that God was going to wipe off the map.
So maybe the Easiest answer is Yes, there is a time for civilizations to die, and that's God's call, not ours. And we shouldn't. That you using that language is irresponsible, I think. Good question. Great question.
Yes, thanks for sending that in. You'd mentioned a recommendation earlier. Remind me what that was. Oh, Stephen Turner's piece, Creed, which is just a satirical poem that he wrote about kind of the foolishness of a. Of us, a culture built on subjectivity, subjectivism, and so on.
So That's kind of a fun little thing to read. Check that out. Awesome.
Okay, well, I'll just quickly recommend. My girls have been turning me on to Elevation Rhythm, which is a worship band tangential ostensibly to Elevation Worship. But there's two songs that we have been listening to nonstop this week, and I love both of them so much. One is called Goodbye Yesterday. The other one is called Washed.
These are great pump-up songs if you're driving your kids to school. Or my oldest daughter, who's playing softball this year, has decided that I think Goodbye Yesterday is going to be her walk-up song. I don't know if they have those in youth softball, but we're going to find out. Uh it definitely fits the bill.
So if you're looking for a great song, Goodbye Yesterday and I'm just gonna say we overdo youth Little League walk-up songs. That is an overdone. Oh, having a middle of Lily too. Anything that makes her love it more, I'm open to.
Well, thank you so much for listening to Breakpoint This Week from the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview. I'm Maria Baer alongside John Stone Street. We'll catch you all back here next week. God bless.
