Non-Charismatic Call-In Day (and More)

Well it is time for non-charismatic call-in day. The phone lines are open! It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, friends, to the line of fire.

This is Michael Brown. I am delighted to be with you today on the broadcast. It is. Non-charismatic call-in day. 866-348 7884.

The number to call. Again, that's 866-34TRUTH.

Now, I want to be clear. There's a reason that we're doing this show now. It's a very specific reason. And I want to help you to understand the purpose of. The broadcast.

We've been doing our best to announce this via social media and on the radio so that the maximum number of people. Are you actually able to call in and participate in the show? If you don't call in, we've done our best to give you a platform to do it. Here's the background. Last week, I interviewed Pastor Bill Johnson from Reading, California Bethel Church.

Bill is a highly respected Christian leader. Christianity Today even did a story on him recently. He is greatly loved and respected by millions around the world. And there are others, many, who say he's heretical, who say that Bethel Church is heretical. JJ, just got a feed coming in my ear.

Not sure what's going on there. All right.

So very, very importantly, I did the interview with Bill. Knowing that there would be controversy because of it.

Now, why did I do the interview? Very simply. Good relations with the publisher Destiny Image. In fact, they have published many of my books in years past, and we continue to work together. What happened was that he's come up with a new book, God is Good.

And I was asked when I interviewed him. I said, listen, I would love to interview him. I've sat with Bill over meals. I preached at Bethel Church years ago. I've got a good relationship with Chris.

Valatin, who is one of the lead pastors there, Bill's right-hand man. And I said, sure, I'd love to have him on.

However, I've got a wide range of listeners. I have listeners who love Bill and think highly of him, who love the things of the spirit that are charismatic. I have other listeners that are very critical of Bill and very skeptical about the modern charismatic movement. And if Bill's willing for me to open the broadcast up for callers to call in with their critical questions and for me to ask him questions that often come up. then by all means, let's do it.

Bill said, absolutely, let's do it.

Now, unfortunately, no one called. To ask Bill questions. People called just with general doctrinal questions for me or Bible questions for me, but not a single person in the entire hour we were on the air called.

Now, once we posted the interview, critics were laying in and attacking him and this and that. And maybe. Maybe some of them were completely unaware that he was on the air with me at that time, but others simply didn't call when they had the opportunity. I said, okay, listen. I want to help people.

I want to help the maximum number of people. experience the maximum amount of Truth. All right, I'm not going to water down a message or compromise a message to get to more people. I'm not going to tailor-make a message to get to more people. And if what I believe is going to cost me a million followers, what does it matter?

I'm going to honor the Lord. If what I believe costs me my life, I'm going to honor the Lord. I hope you have the same conviction. But I know there's a lot of misunderstanding. I know there's often a lot of controversy.

There are things in the charismatic movement I have critiqued for years. And there are, but I am an unashamed, charismatic, Pentecostal tongue speaker, believing that the gifts and power of the Spirit are for today. And even if I never saw a miracle with my own eyes, I would believe it because of what is written. I'm charismatic because I am sola scriptura. I base my faith on what is written in the word.

And my experience can confirm my faith, but does not dictate my faith.

So we've set up the broadcast specifically for you today so that if you have a question, About Bethel, about the charismatic movement in general, about things I've been involved with. This is your day. call. Number is 866-34Truth. We'll be right back.

God of light, hear our cries, send a fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome, friends, to the line of fire, 866-348-7884. This is non-charismatic calling day. This is not a day where I'm going to debate doctrine with you. It's not a day for you to call in with a miraculous testimony confirming what scripture says about the gifts and power of the Spirit.

This is a day for you to call in with questions that you have about charismatic beliefs and practices, especially if you are critical about an interview with Pastor Bill Johnson. You're working hard enough on him. Hey, I open the phones for an hour for critics to call in. I played some clips, I asked some direct questions of some of the more extreme claims, I got answers, and we moved on. I'm not here to play the critic.

And having been falsely criticized for years, and having been part of a revival that was one of the most glorious things known to the church in the 20th century, I say that without hesitation, an extraordinary, glorious, Jesus-exalting move of God, and have people attack that and write that off and reject it. I know what it's like to be falsely accused. And I know what it's like to see abuses firsthand and have to deal with them, especially on Christian TV. And I have dealt with them and I will deal with them. But my goal is not to be the Policeman here.

If you have an issue or question, please, by all means, call. You may have a very valid point. There may be a misunderstanding, or there may be something where we're just going to have to differ. 866-348-7884. Let's start in Plumberville.

Uh Arkansas. Or no, sorry. Plummerville. Is it Arkansas? Yes.

All right, Jody, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, Dr. Brown. Yeah. Really appreciate your ministry and just thank you so much for your faithful.

Uh Ministry to Christ. I am non-charismatic and and I've just got a a quick question.

So, from just a purely scriptural standpoint, I see really good arguments made. For both the continuation and the cessation of spiritual gifts like tongues and healing. But when I run into this type of difficulty and when I'm studying the word, I usually try to put look at historic examples and contemporary examples.

Now I could be wrong about this, but I don't think that Any of the early church fathers personally claimed to have any spiritual gifts? I mean, I know they did write of people that had them. When you see this same trend through history, hang on, where would you get the idea that they didn't claim to. have any. Where does Peter, for example, where does Peter in his writing uh claim to have spiritual gifts.

Well, I'm just Uh not so much. I don't recall any uh particular like tongues or healing in not so much the apostolic Not a little bit. But Hayden, you're missing my point. You're missing my point.

Sorry. We know that Peter was used miraculously by God. We know he had trances, visions, he spoke in tongues, he healed the sick, he raised the dead, right? In 1 and 2 Peter, where does he reference himself doing those things? Um well, I mean, obviously he uh Healed a man and he confirmed that this was not from him, but by a in his letters.

Where does he reference this? Never.

So, you can't expect the other early church leaders to reference themselves doing these things. Peter didn't. John didn't. We have writings outside the New Testament about John's healing ministry. We don't know how accurate they are, but we know certainly he was used in the gifts and power of the Spirit as an apostle, but he doesn't reference that.

We do know that the early church leaders absolutely reference miracles and tongues and prophecy. And we know 300 years later, 400 years later, the time of Augustine, that he didn't believe in this stuff until he documented more than 70 miracles over a couple of years' time, after which he said, of course, these things are for today.

So we have a continual pattern of miracles, healings, prophecies, supernatural manifestations of gifts for centuries. After the New Testament, documented by the early church leaders.

Okay.

Well then can I maybe fast forward in in history if you hundred years. and even apply that to, say, someone like George Witchfield or John Wesley or even more currently, say, Billy Graham or your friend, Dr. White, who from my perspective, these are men that through their words and their actions, I believe they're clearly Seeking to be led and filled by the Holy Spirit, but Um I I don't think that uh uh they would say that God has given them these gifts. Out. But why is that even right?

The question is, though, okay, so we settled it for the early church. The gifts of the Spirit were manifest, were common, were well known, and this goes on for centuries. All right, that's the first thing. The second thing is, it's not normal that you describe yourself as having particular gifts. You talk about what the Holy Spirit is doing.

There are documented healings in the ministry of Wesley. There are documented supernatural movings of the Spirit in the ministry of Whitfield that would be considered completely off today. And Dr. White is a dear friend and a true servant of the Lord, devoted to the Lord, in his theology, he doesn't believe these things are for today. And your theology is going to dictate your experience.

But what about the hundreds and hundreds of millions who have experienced the gifts and power of the Spirit today? Men of God, women of God, the great majority of the church around the world today that is growing in leaps and bounds in Asia and Africa and Latin America. The leaders there are used by God in the gifts and power of the Spirit. And we have the overwhelming testimony of Scripture.

So it's like slam dunk. Easy.

Well, I think you you just about hit right on what my root of my question is. You said his theology didn't dictate his experience. No, his theology did dictate his experience. Oh, did.

Okay.

Yes, yes.

So so my question is this. Do you think it is just a matter of God not having blessed some people with these particular gifts? Or does it go beyond that in that this is something that someone would have to seek for themselves? And if it's the latter, then wouldn't their personal desire to have Say the gift of tongues or the gift of healing, have an effect on whether or not they feel like the Spirit is actually leading them to do it. Yes, I think that's a terrific question, Jodi.

And I'm glad we could get there. It's a good dialogue, a healthy dialogue to get there. First, let God be God. I'm not going to sit here and say that I know why God does everything He does. I do know.

that if we don't earnestly seek for certain things because we don't believe they're for today or we don't believe they were ever for the people of God, then we won't experience them. It's very unlikely that we will. And I just encourage everyone. To say, God, give me everything you have for me so I can serve you most effectively and that your name could be most glorified.

Now, that's a prayer that all the men of God you mentioned, past and present, would certainly agree with, and you and I would agree with. And that's what I encourage people to pray. Hebrews 11:6, God's a rewarder of those who earnestly seek him. And Paul at the end of 1 Corinthians 14, where he says, don't forbid speaking in tongues, says, seek earnestly the best gifts, especially prophecy. I would say, let's just say for my own life.

There are things I have not received because I have not sought God earnestly for them. And if I did seek out earnestly for them, Then I believe there were certain things I would see God do in my life more effectively for his glory. But let's all agree, whatever our theology. God, give me everything you have for me so that I can serve you most effectively and your name can be most glorified. That's a prayer we can all pray.

Thank you, Jody, for the questions. Great questions. Good way to get us started. 866-348-7884. We go to Jonathan in Salem Springs, Arkansas.

Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah. Hello, Dr. Brown. Hey.

Hey, I just wanted to clarify your understanding and position on the gift of healing. I was looking at Bill Johnson's website and he has a Q and A section. One of them is One of the questions is, is it always God's will to heal someone? And without reading the whole answer, his basic answer is yes. Uh, because healing was purchased by Jesus, you know, at the cross.

And then a little later on he says, related to that, he says, when we pray for healing, we should not pray, if it be thy will. because he has never he says he's never seen anyone healed with that kind of prayer.

So my question is, do you agree with that? And is that the mainstream charismatic view on healing, that God wants to heal everyone? At all times? That you would say, just as God desires to save all mankind. God desires to heal all mankind, and that therefore we don't pray, since Jesus, you could say, is the will of God in action.

Since Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. since throughout the Old Testament healing came as a blessing for obedience, since Jesus carried our sicknesses and bore our pains, since when He was asked if He would do something, He said, I'm willing. Yeah, and since Jacob, James, the fifth chapter says that the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person whole, it doesn't say that we should ask if it's God's will to heal. Yes, that the presumption is, and I'm going to take whatever question you have in response to this on the other side of the break. The presumption is.

for those that believe in healing and miracles for today, that we should say, Father, we're asking you to heal, because we believe his will on that has been revealed. Just like when you go to the doctor, you don't say, doctor, if you're willing to treat me. That's what they do. We believe God's revealed himself as our great healer. And we come to him asking for healing.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. Is the number to call. And it is non-charismatic call-in day.

My goal is not to get into an argument with you. I'm happy to clarify doctrine. I want to do my best to clarify confusion. There may be some very real abuses you've experienced in the charismatic movement that I agree with. There may be things that seem unusual that I'd be able to explain in a helpful way, but my goal is to help and edify, not win an argument.

So feel free to call with any question. Don't worry about offending me with your question. All right.

86634Truth.

So one last point, Jonathan. I devoted years of intensive academic and theological and spiritual study to the subject of healing. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word for healing and then followed it up with a Zondervan monograph in 95 called Israel's Divine Healer. It's very academic, it's very dense, but I think it's the most. focused academic study ever of the uh Ever on the subject of God the healer that's been done in the English language.

And I also. I conclude it. that our physical healing, along with all of our redemption, was purchased At the cross, and in that sense, Our full restoration is in the atonement. We don't receive all the benefits here in this world. There are things, just like we have complete victory over sin through the cross-100 victory over sin at the cross, yet we don't experience the fullness of it in this world.

It's the same with healing, and that's why, even in the New Testament, you have examples of people not healed, even people close to Paul, despite the existence of the gift of healing and what God has done. But our presumption is healing is a good thing, it's a blessing from God, therefore, we don't pray if it be your will. And the old Pentecostal line is, you pray, Lord, if it be your will, heal me. He doesn't heal you. Then why do you go to the doctor to try to get the will of God off of your life?

You should just accept it.

So that would be our normal. not universally held, but our normal doctrinal view.

So um Ultimately, obviously, I mean, I agree we'll all be healed in heaven. Um So if you're not healed now, it's not because it's not I mean Whose fault is it, I guess? If it's God's will to heal you now, are you stopping him if you're asking for it? I mean, people who pray. Yeah, that's the critical question, Jonathan.

And it's very easy for people to get hung up on that. Or we see throughout the New Testament Jesus responds to faith, according to your faith, be healed, and things like that. And it's easy to say, well, you don't have enough faith, and that's horrific. Bill Johnson was very strong on that. You never minister like that to people.

If I'm praying for someone and we don't see a breakthrough, and I know I'm not praying in faith, well, I'll point a finger at myself. But the flip side is there can be a passivity that just says, God, whatever your will is, let it be done. And you leave it there. There can be an error on the other side that puts all the pressure on us to make it happen. And I believe that we should earnestly pursue God and seek Him.

Many times, there are spiritual battles. We have it in many areas of life where you've got to pray and pray through and take hold of God before the breakthrough comes. But why we don't see more people healed aside from the general unbelief of the church in America, why we don't see more healed? I can't answer that. That's one of the things we honor the Lord, we minister, we do our best, and we leave the results to Him.

Okay.

Can I ask what you mean by breakthrough? You said that a couple times. Yeah, yeah, sure thing. What I mean is sometimes you're praying. You're praying for a loved one.

for their salvation or for marriage to be reconciled. Or a ministry area, you know, the door is closed, you can't get into a country or community, and you pray. and you shut yourself in with God and you pray for several hours and and there's no answer. And the thing hasn't changed, and you're fast, and it hasn't changed. And then you think, okay, I'm just, I'm.

I'm canceling my appointments for this weekend and I'm getting alone with God and you know, and I'm just going to pray. And you pray and then you know in your heart the answers come. I know that I know that I know the answers come. Old timers call it praying through, and then sure enough, you get the results. Or you pray and you feel that confidence, and then next thing you hear, yeah, the thing has happened.

That's what I mean by breakthroughs.

So, put aside healing, we often have to. Do that. 866-34-TRUTH. Remember in Daniel, the 10th chapter, the angel Michael says: the moment you started praying, or Gabriel says, the moment you started praying, you were heard, and the message, the answer is on its way. But we got into a battle in the heavenlies, and Michael had to come and help me because I was fighting the Prince of Persia.

And now I finally got here. You think, what? That's in the Bible. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go to.

Okay, let us go to John. All right.

There was a question that John had from Rawway, New Jersey. Concerning David Wilkerson, was he in opposition to the Brownsville revival? I'll tell you for a fact, he wasn't. Why can't I say that? 'Cause I know him.

I knew him. During his lifetime, I preached for him, oh, between 40 and 50 times from 91 to 95 at Times Square Church. In 96. Joined the leadership of the Brownsburg Revival, raised up the school there. He called me in the midst of it to say raising up the school was the smartest thing we had done.

And that uh it was uh That was going to be the lasting fruit of the revival. He called it another time with, or took a call from me with counsel when there was a difficult time going on with some criticism of the revival. And he said, listen, you've got to handle it like this, otherwise, the revival will be cut short. And then he put out his newsletter, which was massively widely read. Every three weeks, his messages went out.

And he spoke very critically of a purported revival movement. And people said, Is he talking about Brownsville? Is that Brownsville? Is he talking about Brownsville?

So I called his office and spoke to his administrative assistant, Barb Backery, and she gave me a message. She said, if anyone Thinks he was criticizing Brownsville. You haven't called me. Here's the number. And I gave that announcement publicly.

Didn't have my radio show back then, but gave it publicly.

So, no, he was not a critic of the Browns Revival. In fact, the man God used to ignite the revival was Steve Hill, a graduate of Teen Challenge, so David Wilkerson's drug rehab ministry, and a graduate of Twin Oaks Bible Academy, which is a Bible school David Wilkerson had for a couple of years. And Steve was a graduate of that, as was his wife Jerry. That's where they met.

So Yeah, just to answer that as clearly as possible. Eight six six three four truth. Remember, friends. My My purpose in the show today is not to debate doctrine, and no one's debated doctrine. You've had good questions.

I just want to be clear on this. And uh I primarily said let's do this today as a follow-up to my interview with Pastor Bill Johnson. Those who said, Well, you weren't hard enough on him. My goal was not to crucify him on the air. My goal is to speak to him as a brother in the Lord who loves the Lord.

Whose ministry is touching many people in a wonderful way? Do I agree with everything that Bethel does? No. Do I agree with everything any church I know does? Even my own congregation here and there do things differently.

Okay.

You know, one guy says he doesn't agree with everything he believed 20 years ago. But I Gladly opened the phones to those who had questions saying, Well, he can't be a man of God, or this can't be right, or this is heretical. And one thing that concerns me: you know, people say, Well, he believes in this grave-sucking thing, and you suck the anointing off a grave. Actually, He 100% corrected that, repudiated that, made clear that that was not the case. 100% that that was not the case.

And yet people still post, well, who believes in this? I don't like that. I do not like that. That concerns me. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire on non-charismatic call-in day. I'm asking you to please not call if you're a charismatic Pentecostal and want to contribute a positive point or answer a call. I'm asking you to please not call if that's the case, because I want to give space to my non-charismatic, non-Pentecostal listeners.

Some of you listen, love the show, love me, but differ here.

Some are real critics and think, wow, something's wrong.

Something's wrong. This is how you're giving place to heretics. Hey. The phone lines are open, and I'm happy to speak with you. 866-34-TRUTH.

We go to. No, we don't. Let's go to Deborah in Newark, New Jersey. Welcome to the line of fire. Thanks very much.

I'm calling in to make a response to the the gentleman who called from Arkansas is concerned that because signs of charismatic manifestation hasn't appeared in Writing. By those who would have seen it, it must not exist, or there must not be a record of it because it didn't exist. I'm calling as a historian of American religion who's read the entire corpus of Revival literature. And that's what historians call an argument from silence. And if you look at the great revival on the Appalachian frontier in eighteen oh one at Cane Ridge, from whence came the Holiness and Charismatic the Holiness and Pentecostal movements at the end of the nineteenth century that then went throughout the world, Our primary texts are not written.

All we have are a few pieces written by pastors on the scene. But we do have texts. They're in the oral literature. And the material culture, and by that I mean. people who are not literate, who don't write.

But they have generational transmission through preaching, singing, and praying. through conversion narratives and testimony. And that is about literature too, and that's where much of the history resides. But just because people haven't written about it and published it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Yeah, and Deborah, I appreciate that historical point.

The fact is, most of the great things God is doing today. Uh they're not being broadcast by a T V preacher. They're not being shown at a big meeting because they're happening in homes and they're happening in house churches and outlying places. They're happening all over the place. And the eyewitness testimonies are such, and the church growth is such, and the people encountering the Lord is such that you'd have to differ, as Professor Craig Keener says, with probably these 200 million people.

Worldwide. Yeah, an important point. I'd love to speak with you more about it, but want to get to other calls. But thank you for those wise words. Much appreciated.

866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Rest in Virginia. Elizabeth, welcome to the line of fire. Hello. Dr.

Um w I am uh wondering Is the um Gift of tongues that the apostles and Many people use it was a different language on Pentecost, was it? At Pentecost, it is apparently other earthly languages that are understood. The other instances in Acts, specifically Acts 10, Acts 19, it doesn't clarify whether it was an earthly language or not.

However, for sure, in 1 Corinthians 14, as Paul speaks about it, it is not an earthly language. It is not known to human beings. We pray in our spirit. Our own mind does not understand it.

So that's what I wanted to know. Is there a prayer language that's a personal something that you don't know what you're saying? Certainly, Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians, but in public, he said, I'd rather speak five words in a known language than 5,000 words in an unknown tongue. But as one who's prayed in tongues for many years, it is wonderful for edification, for spiritual upbuilding so that we can more effectively serve those in the world, serve the body, serve those who don't know the Lord. As we are strengthened in our communion with God, it enables us to strengthen and touch others.

So, yes, absolutely. I do see that as taught clearly in Scripture. Thank you for the question. We'll be right back. Shake the knee.

It's time to change the world. Change the world. It's fire we want. Oh, fire we please. Share the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-248. Seven eight eight four Four. Let us go to Scott in Albemarle, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Uh Good afternoon, Dr.

Brown. I apologize. I wasn't sure whether or not I needed to hang up or not. I used I was raised as non as a non-charismatic, raised in a non-charismatic church. Suddenly things opened up in the scriptures to me that changed this.

And one of the things that I that I keep hearing is a theme from most people that are calling into you and also not just calling into you, but that I've uh experience with in speaking with other people that are non-charismatic is that once I realize that that what exactly faith is. That faith was not a belie or a feeling, but it was an actual decision. Once I realized that, when I that I got that it was left up to me to choose to believe or not and decided to believe is whenever the power of God began to open up in my life, and we began to see miracles upon miracles. Happening, documented miracles where people could contact. Hospitals and All right, yes, I'm just jumping in only in accordance with the integrity of the broadcast.

Otherwise, I'd love to hear more. But, yes. Once you are convinced of what Scripture says, Then you make a conscious decision to put your faith in God.

Now we have to grow in faith. And there's sometimes we don't know why there seems to be no faith to believe for certain things, and other times there seems to be more faith. But yes, it's a decision I'm going to trust God. It's kind of like I'm going to jump and he's going to catch me with his arms. I'm making that decision.

I'm going to push away from shore and trust that this boat's going to get to its destination. It doesn't mean we do things foolish or get away from medical care or throw away our medicine. It means we decide: Father, you've said it. I'm going to put my trust in you. I see what your word says, or I've been unclear about the word.

Now I see your power at work. I look at the word again. I see the word really is clear on this. I'm going to trust you and begin to pray and begin to expect. And here, You you have the proof of the pudding.

What other proof could we Ask for. 866-34TRUTH. Let us go to Stephanie in Richmond, Virginia. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi, how are you today?

Doing very well, thanks. I want to have a question. I used to work with this lady. She was a very, very strong Christian. And something was going on at work with someone, and we were all praying for a healing, and it did not come to pass.

And she made the comment that we didn't have enough faith. And I told her that I had enough faith to accept the fact that God's going to say no sometimes to my prayers. And I feel that people are always saying, God didn't answer my prayer, He didn't answer my prayer, but People just aren't willing to accept the answer. It's sometimes going to be no. What are your feelings on that?

Well, sometimes it is no, but sometimes we do have lack of faith. I mean, that is in the Bible. Why couldn't we drive this demon out? Jesus said, because of your lack of faith. Jesus in his hometown doesn't perform many, many miracles, and he was amazed at their unbelief, which indicates that the people didn't even come to him for prayer.

So we see it throughout the whole Bible. You know, God tells Isaiah in Isaiah 7: If you won't believe, you won't be firmly established.

So many times it is lack of faith. Jacob, James, the fifth chapter, says the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well. If someone says, I don't believe in healing, all right, fine, Father, if you want to heal, heal. If not, don't. That's not a prayer of faith.

So many times, it is, I know speaking personally, there have been times I've not been in faith. Because I was not meditating on the word and really walking in intimacy with God. And doesn't Jude tell us to build ourselves up? And the most holy faith is and Peter encourages to grow. and the grace and knowledge of the Lord.

So of course there are many times God's answer is no. But there are other times when we didn't seek him, and therefore we didn't find him.

Well, I certainly believe in healing, absolutely, but There's also reality that people aren't going to live forever. And it was just her view: that, no, we failed, and we're the reason. And I said, no, you know. Pray for faith, and if it is his will that this person live longer, it is. If not, he's taking them home early for a reason.

Am I missing something?

Well, Stephanie, first, I appreciate your trust in the Lord. I absolutely appreciate your trust in the Lord. And your desire to follow him no matter what, whether things go the way you're expecting or the way you want them to or not. That's faith, and I honor and appreciate that for sure. My question is this.

If the scriptures are our guide, If Jesus is the living manifestation of the will of the Father, and he healed all who came to him. And if throughout the scriptures we're encouraged to believe for healing, I would rather say, I don't know why that person wasn't healed, as opposed to God decided to take them home early. How do I know that? Where is that written? You know, speaking of the earthly thief, but it can be applied to Satan.

He comes to steal, kill, and destroy. How do we know that this was not a satanic attack? Uh and and that that someone was was in that sense taken Before their time, you know, Paul says to the Thessalonians, I wanted to see you many times, but Satan hindered me. And yet in another place he wanted to go somewhere and the Lord said no.

So I don't, I think wisdom, Stephanie, would be in between. These two viewpoints. Viewpoint A.

Well We didn't have enough faith. That's why the person wasn't healed. That can be very, very. Discouraging, damning, and put tremendous pressure on people. Even though sometimes it could be true, it can put tremendous pressure on us.

And now we have to manufacture it, we have to make it happen. And it's the opposite of faith, actually.

Now it's all on me. The other side is to presume that whatever happened, well, God just chose. To do that. Uh for his purpose As opposed to saying, I don't know what happened. I was praying.

We were asking God to heal. The kid was only 15 years old, had his whole life in front of him. I don't know why he wasn't healed. We prayed, we asked God, we sought him. I don't know.

We commit him to the Lord. We know he's in a better place now, and he wouldn't come back even if he could. You know, he's in the presence of God. At that point, that's when I would say, okay, well, I guess it was not his will that this person live longer and accept that. I would go through all those steps and definitely pray and believe.

ask him for for healing, but Yeah. I accept the fact that the person is gone, but I'm not going to say that was God's ideal will. I think many things happen that God grieves over. Many things happen that are I never thought about it like that. I never thought about it.

Yeah, that are not what he desires. I mean, read through the whole Bible. Jesus weeping over Jerusalem because the religious leaders resisted his will. Luke writing that the Pharisees rejected the will of God. God often speaking through Jeremiah or the prophets, I never intended this.

This is not what I had planned for you.

So, again, I would rather say, I don't know. I don't know what happened. And look, I know of people that were given an opportunity from the Lord and hardened their heart. In certain ways, that God was ready to bless them and help them if they would humble themselves. I know of one man that was miraculously healed.

Here, I'll give you an example of something I saw with my own eyes. I saw with my own eyes. You explain this to me. You explained to me if it was not God's will to heal, and if you It was not God's desire to heal. And by the way, I don't mean God's frustrated in heaven.

He carries out his purposes on the earth, but he often does it grieved over human unbelief and human sin.

So I was administering in upstate New York in the Woodstock area many years ago. And there was a boy there who had a really pronounced cross-eyed. I mean, Really pronounced. He looked like a little Dennis the Menace kid. He had these thick big glasses on.

He couldn't see anything without them. We prayed for him, and the meetings were held in a big gymnasium. He was in the back of the gymnasium with his glasses off, seeing everything perfectly. We were, everyone rejoiced, and his eyes that were totally crossed. I mean.

Tall. I never saw someone with such crossed eyes. Perfectly. Normal. He went home rejoicing to his mother, who was an absolute skeptic.

Uh a m a God mocker. And she refused to believe he was healed. She refused to believe, you're not healed. God did, she saw it in front of her eyes. And not long after, the eye crossed back and he had to wear the glasses again.

How do you explain that?

Well, simple explanation to me, but I'm not going to say, well, I guess God. didn't want to heal the kid. I would say God expressed his mercy and grace. And this mother, with her authority over his life, got in the way. and cost him a tremendous blessing.

So I won't put this pressure on myself that it's all up to me. Nor will I Conclude to speak for God just because someone died. Look, if somebody steals a gun, was that God's will that they stole the gun? No. If they steal the gun and break into somebody's house, was that God's will?

No. The moment they pull that trigger and kill the person, was murder? The the will of God? No. And yet now that that person was killed, you say God must have taken them?

I say, what a terrible loss. Hey, Stephanie, thank you. Great, great questions. What the fuck? Angel World.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for your great questions on non-charismatic call-in day.

Now, I want to say something plainly. to everyone who is very, very critical. Very, very critical of Bill Johnson's of this world, or critical of me for being a friend of Bill Johnson, or Mike Bickel, who I'm much closer with. I just want to say something. If you can't find time to call in.

If it's impossible with work schedule, hey, I understand that. But we open up the radio for two whole hours. and you don't call in when you have the opportunity, please don't post comments. All right, if you have the opportunity to call and don't. Please don't post critical comments.

In fact, I I find it Um Unethical. If you're able to call and choose not to, and then you're going to post your attacks. I personally find that unethical. Just want to say that. Because here we have an opportunity to communicate and clarify.

If the goal is just to attack, hey, don't listen to the show. Why waste your time? Please, the world needs you. The church needs you. Give yourself to things more constructive.

If you just want to attack 'Kay. Spend your time. Elsewhere, all right? They've got honest questions and concerns. If you say, Look, Mike Brown, I'm sure you're wrong.

I'm sure I'm right. I want to tell you what, fine, call me. Call me. I'm unable to respond to internet comments. One out of a thousand, one out of ten thousand, I might respond to, I might even see.

So please. Do things the right way. If you're unable to call again, understand that. Then write me a personal email that I can potentially address. on the air.

I'm just asking you to do that. If you just want to continue to post attacking comments, we'll just block them because it's non-constructive. If you have the opportunity to reach out in other ways, please do it. All right, 866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Mooresville, North Carolina.

Tim, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you for having me on. doctor Brown, I appreciate you and your radio station and your show and what you do. Thank you. I just have I have a quick question.

So my question would be as far as the charismatic movement. By what method you use To Understand Either the Holy Spirit moving Or somebody's own attention-seeking behavior, specifically in regards to a worship service.

Somebody speaking in tongues, or running around, or falling over, or maybe being a little bit over the top. What do you use? How do you determine whether that is actually the Holy Spirit moving? Or that is somebody just by their own volition doing something that they some people will say, oh wow, that person is really spiritual. Yeah, well the first thing is, Tim My default is not to assume the worst about a person.

In other words, if I'm in a Baptist church and the preacher is really getting worked up. And running around the platform and waving his hands. My thought is: this guy just wants to be seen. This guy's just doing this for the T V camera. This guy's just doing this to seem anointed.

I don't want to think that thought immediately for anyone, okay? I would have to see a pattern of behavior. That is clearly drawing attention to oneself, whatever it was. Whether it was in, again, a non-charismatic church and someone's singing more loudly, are they trying to show off their beautiful voice? Is this gal trying to display her pretty voice, right?

My default is not they're trying to do it for themselves. But if I see over a period of time that something is disruptive, that it is drawing attention away from the corporate to the individual. Then you deal with it practically. But again, it could be the same thing: charismatic, non-charismatic, all the same principle to me. If it's a persistent thing, first, if it's contrary to the Bible, then that's simple, right?

If someone is getting up in the middle of the service shouting out, Satan rules, well, then we know they're not speaking by the Spirit, right? But if it's something else, You know, why is this choir member singing more loudly than the others? Why is this preacher using all these big words as he preaches and quoting the Hebrew and the Greek as he's trying to show off? Why is this person during the service shaking and they fall to the ground? It's all the same way of evaluation.

Unless I know in myself for good reason that they're trying to draw attention to themselves, I want to think the best and think perhaps they don't realize what's happening as a result. of their actions or words or behavior. If it's persistent and is obviously drawing attention to them, if I'm a leader, I remember one time in Brownsville, there was a guy up front during the worship and he'd get all worked up and shake and fall to the ground. It happened a couple of times and ushers just came up to him and basically said, brother, just calm yourself down. Just worship the Lord.

The goal is not to fall or shake. Worship the Lord. And normally, if the person has a right spirit and attitude, they receive that and they learn from it. If not, you shut it down. It happened one time.

I was getting up to preach on a Saturday night in Brownsville, and I began to speak. And a woman in the balcony began to shout out in tongues. And I said, please, sister, I'm speaking now. Just one of us can speak. And she did it a second time.

I said, you're out of order. Be quiet. She did it a third time. I said, ushers, remove her.

Now it could have been tongues. It could have been. I have a message for the church. It could have been in English. Didn't matter.

It was disruptive. And out of order.

So that's how we'll evaluate everything. Does it edify? Is it disruptive? Is it out of order? And then remember, Tim, it can be a genuine gift of the Spirit, but it's still up to the person to steward it.

So Paul gives instructions if someone's prophesying, 1 Corinthians 14, and then someone else has a word, the first one should stop and the second one speak, because God's not the author of confusion. And he says the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

So that's how we'd evaluate it, and it could be a genuine gift in operation, but being improperly stewarded by the person through whom God is working.

So you're you're just to clarify, even if somebody has what they would consider a movement of the Holy Spirit, It's still okay from the person on the stage to say it's not the appropriate time. I mean, I was involved in a college ministry, a young adult ministry, and there's multiple times when I'm closing the service as a service host. Trying to wrap up the evening, and somebody would come up to me and say, I've been given a word from the Lord. Can I have the microphone? And I would say, No, I'm sorry, you can't.

We're closing up here. And they would say, But this is really important. You're actually limiting the Holy Spirit right now. I'm saying, I'm sorry that that's not what we're doing. And I would say, Can we talk about this afterwards?

And so now they have disrupted the whole entire thing. Exactly. Right.

So here's the thing: there are times. When we are so fixed in our agenda, We have no room for the spirit, right? And no room for the voice of God ever. And God wants to speak something through someone. And that's why it says in 1 Thessalonians 5, Thessalonians 5: Don't despise prophecies, don't put out the Spirit's fire, test everything, hold fast to that which is good.

It could be, Tim, that God gave that person a word, but there's a time and season for it. And again, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. People are still called to be orderly and under authority in what they do. And if it's a genuine word, then you share it with the leader afterwards, and the leader can say, Wow, that was really the Lord. Let's send that out to everybody via email.

Or I think when we gather together, start the meeting by sharing that. But it can be genuinely the Lord. You can have a genuine gift of healing and say, I'm going to pray for the sick right now. No, no, no, this is time for the message.

So things still have to be done properly and within order. That doesn't mean it's not the Holy Spirit. spirit, it means that the person is not acting responsibly. All right, friends, bottom line, say to the Lord, I want everything you have for me in the Spirit to glorify you and to touch. We've got our finger on the pulse of the church and the society and an important message from Reverend James Robinson.

It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. About 30 minutes from now, I'm going to bring on James Robinson, who has spent a lot of time with Donald Trump recently, and I'm going to ask him some honest questions, some important questions.

So please join us if you can 30 minutes from now. We've just spent an hour taking phone calls. I'm going to take a few more calls as well. We had one hour of non-charismatic call-in day. I've got a few callers I was not able to get to, so I want to get to them in this new hour here.

And if you are a listener, you consider yourself non-charismatic or even anti-charismatic and And You've got questions. I don't know. I'm not sure about this. I don't believe this. I have a question about this.

I have a question about that. By all means, give me a call. I'm going to take calls for a few more minutes and then... Change subjects, but I want to give you an opportunity to call 866-348-7884. And we'll go right to the phones.

We'll start with Ramon in LaGrange, North Carolina. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Yes, good afternoon, Doctor Brown. Good afternoon. my childhood going to a missionary Baptist church.

Later as an adult, I went to a deliverance church, a charismatic church for about twenty-two years total. I'll stop going, then.

Now I stopped going because I sincerely believe that the gift of tongues were Counterfit it in. the church I went to and all the churches we visited, You know, people were um Start speaking in tongues out of nowhere. If they got a new card, they were speaking in tongues. Anything happened, anything that got them excited, they would just go off in the tongues. You never knew what somebody was saying.

Sometimes the entire church would go in tongues, and I used to question it, and I got. People used to get mad at me for questioning that.

So my question is this. What does the gift of tongue sound like and look like in the local church today? Yeah, Ramon, first there's nothing wrong with you questioning things. It's perfectly fine, especially if you do it with the right spirit, saying, Father, I only want what's real. If this is real, then help me to see it, but it seems odd to me.

You know, you can do things in a critical, mocking way. which is fleshly, or you can do things in a genuine Honest way, you love the Lord, you love his word, and you question things. But remember, there are all kinds of abuses in Corinth, Ramon. All kinds of things that Paul had to set in order. And then they had their sin issues too.

But as far as the manifestation of the Spirit, there was stuff completely out of order. But Paul in the first chapter commands them for not lacking any spiritual gift. And then he says, Don't forbid speaking in tongues, but earnestly seek prophecy.

So even though they were abusing the gifts, he never said it wasn't real.

So Uh I was just with a friend of mine. Who is a Gentile believer who's given decades to Jewish ministry in Brooklyn? He was speaking at a congregation led by a man from Rwanda. He began speaking in tongues, and the Rwandan pastor stopped him and said, You just delivered a perfect message. In my native language, what we speak in Rwanda.

Perfect message. And this, my friend said, he just told me about this two days ago. He said, well, What what What do you mean? He said, I was just speaking in tongues. He said, I'm telling you from Rwanda, it was a perfect message.

This is real. I want you to pray for my congregation. But from what I understand, that is rare and that is not the norm. I've heard it happen quite a few times, but it's not the norm. The norm as I see it, according to 1 Corinthians 14, is no one understands us.

and that we can speak in tongues at will. We may speak in tongues when we feel the Spirit move on us. And we have the ability to all speak in tongues at the same time in a service. But that can be counterproductive because it's gonna drive away unbelievers. Stay right there.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire 866-348-7884. Yeah, so. All right, Ramon's gone there. But yeah, Ramon. I would not look at something as counterfeit just because the way it's used strikes me as unusual.

I would evaluate it on based on Scripture. And if I see abuses, If I see things done in a non-orderly way, it can happen the same with prophecy. I won't say it's not for the Lord. I'll evaluate the claims scripturally, and then it could be that it needs. Uh it needs uh simply Uh guidelines.

For example, the Browns were revival, the meetings were very intense. They went on for five, six hours every night, several nights a week, most nights of the week for years. And people weeping at the altar and crying out and getting right with God. And sometimes people getting water baptized completely overcome. And they would literally be overcome.

They'd be sharing their testimony and they'd get baptized and they'd literally collapse in the water, they'd be carried out. I never saw that yet, but can you tell me why it's not God? Jonathan Edwards gave nine non-signs. These have been misunderstood as negative signs, terribly misunderstood. I documented that in detail in my Revival Answer book and Holy Fire book, and discussed it with some of the top Jonathan Edwards and church historian scholars in America.

And there's no question that Jonathan Edwards was misquoted and misunderstood by some contemporary leaders. But for two and a half centuries he's been rightly used in this way. He gave nine non-signs and said, based on these things, you cannot say, well, this must be the Spirit. Conversely, you can't say it's not the Spirit. For example, if people fall or shake or cry out or Or other unusual things happen.

Or even if there's some people who fall into error or extremism, that doesn't mean the whole is false. You've got to judge by the whole, not by the part.

So, you know, I don't know. There's people shaking, falling in that service. How could that be God? Jonathan Edwards' response is: you can't judge by that. You have to judge by the lasting fruit.

You have to judge by the lasting conformity to scripture in people's lives, the lasting exaltation of Jesus in their lives, the turning from sin to holiness, a true repentance, true love for others. That's how you can evaluate whether the thing is really from God or not. If the scriptures do not address it directly, That's how you then evaluate. And so, as Edward said, otherwise, God would have given us a book. Saying, okay, when The Holy Spirit moves, you will shake like this, your pulse will rise to this, you will sweat like this, you will drip tears like this.

No, no. Or when the Holy Spirit moves, none of the above will happen. No, that's not what God said. He said, we're watchmen of people's souls. We're not doctors.

Physicians.

So that's what we need to put our focus on. Overall, Is the message in conformity with Scripture? Overall, what type of fruit is being borne? Satan can't drive out Satan. If Jesus is being exalted, the Jesus of the scriptures is being exalted, and lives are being changed for his glory, disciples are being made, Satan is.

is not behind it. Say, maybe it's just the flesh. No, flesh gives birth to flesh. Jesus said, You must be born of the Spirit. Flesh cannot produce lasting spiritual results, it can produce temporary excitement and things that look spiritual, but there will be no long-term fruit.

The flesh can't do it, Satan won't do it.

So if I see a church in my area, And I might question, oh, that kind of music. I don't know about that musical style. Or, oh, you know, the way they do this, a little too slick for me. Or whatever it is. And I find out over a period of years that they're making genuine disciples for the kingdom, that people are genuinely coming to know Jesus through their ministry and becoming solid citizens of the kingdom.

And this is the norm. over many years. Obviously, it's the Lord doing it. And it doesn't mean everything they do is right. It doesn't mean my criticisms are right either.

Overall, it has to be the Lord-bearing fruit. To say it again, Satan won't do it. The flesh can't do it. These are proven principles And when I see here, I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example.

You pray for the Holy Spirit to touch someone. And they they begin to shake from head to toe. Uh they scream and they collapse on the floor. And here this was a skeptic, a mocker. who said, Yeah, you can pray for me.

If your God's real, he can touch me. I'm open. They get up 10 minutes later. They say, oh my God, he's real. He's real.

I know God is real. I know Jesus is real. Oh, man, everything I heard growing up about the Bible, it's true. I know. I got to call my wife.

I got to confess. I've been in sin. She doesn't even know it. I got to call her. Oh, man.

I got to go to my boss. I've stolen. I got to confess. I got to get things right. And will you, look, I need a pastor.

And then 10 years later, this person is following the Lord on fire, marriage restored, job restored. They pay their dues to society, whatever. It must have been the Holy Spirit who touched them. Conversely, If someone comes into your church service, stands up in the middle of the service, starts shaking violently, screams, falls to the ground. And then 10 minutes later, gets up using all kinds of profanity and cursing and mocking God.

That wasn't the spirit, there was some kind of demonic manifestation. But the thing itself You don't know. Based on the outward actions, whether it was the Holy Spirit, whether it was human emotions, whether it was the devil, or it was the Holy Spirit moving on someone to set them free from some demonic bondage. And that's what happened just like for example in Mark the ninth chapter. at the word of Jesus.

There was a supernatural manifestation like this. It looked like an epileptic fit, but it was a demon leaving a boy. after which he was fine. That happened today, how many of our churches would say that's the devil? No, it was the devil leaving and the Holy Spirit touching.

Proverbs 14:4 reminds us: without oxen, the stable stays clean, but you need a strong ox for a large harvest. In other words, when God's really moving and lots of people are coming to faith, there are going to be some abuses here and there. Clean them up. Address them. There are going to be some things that are controversial.

Use wisdom. Don't exalt the controversial. Exalt Jesus. Exalt the Word of God. give free reign to the moving of the Holy Spirit.

evaluate by the major doctrines that are preached and taught as opposed to focusing on and majoring on a minor. I don't mean that everything goes. I don't mean that. But I mean that, as Conrad Cherry, church historian, pointed out, Charles Chauncey, who was the chief critic of Jonathan Edwards and the Great Awakening, came to very different conclusions about the exact same meetings. And according to Cherry, Chauncey focused on the chaff.

Edwards focused on the weak.

Someone's going to say, Well, I don't know about that guy. There's a strange thing happened.

Okay, let's look at their doctrinal statement. Let's look at 100 of their messages and see overall what they preach and teach. Let's look what they put out in book form.

Okay, let's look at their overall message. Is it overall Orthodox, meaning does it hold to the fundamentals of the gospel? The essentials of the faith. Yeah. Do they have a high view of scriptures?

Yeah, they do.

Okay.

Are they seeking to win the lost and bring the message of the cross to the world? Yes. Okay.

Good. That all checks off. Yeah, but they do this. The way they sing, it's too repetitious. Maybe it is.

Maybe it is too repetitious. I'm not going to throw the whole thing. Oh, it's not God. No, especially when people are seeking God and being touched. Yeah, maybe that was too repetitious.

Maybe that pastor style was too animated and it was just a fleshly thing. Maybe. Maybe the sermon's too long, maybe the sermon's too short. Maybe that choir is too into performance. There are all kinds of possible things like that.

But you first, no one set me up as God's policeman for the whole body. Trust me. If I visited your home church for a month, I I could easily make up a list of things. What about this, what about that? And probably have a few corrections for some of the messages and teaching I've heard based on my knowledge of Scripture.

Is it my role to go around as God's policeman? And maybe it's just my opinion, and I'm wrong about certain things. You say, yeah, but there's some glaring errors. I've written whole books addressing glaring errors and may write another one in the years to come. But those glaring errors are not the norm.

Those glaring errors are are not The example of what's happening in fellowships and churches on a regular basis around America and in other nations, and where God is moving, say a country or continent like Africa, a continent of Africa where there's so much new birth, there are bound to be abuses and confusions, especially when many of the people are coming out of all types of spiritism and African ancestral religion and different things, and some kind of coming out of Islam. There's going to be a lot of confusion. That's where we need our friends, our non-charismatic friends as well, to come and help because God's doing something amazing and wonderful. Don't throw the baby out because it's a little bloody and dirty. That's what happens when babies are born.

Come and let's help bring these things to maturity. All right, I may take one or two more calls, and then we're changing subjects. 866-348-7884 is number to call. We will be right back. Mm-hmm.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much.

For joining us on the broadcast, 866-348-7884. Going to take a few more calls in the spirit of. Non-charismatic call-in day as we've been trying to sort through questions, issues that some of our friends have with charismatic issues. There are concerns I have as someone within the movement for the better part of 45 years, the charismatic Pentecostal movement, and they are non-negotiables to me because the scripture is totally plain to me on the issue. And secondarily, I've seen God back his word in extraordinary ways.

866-3666. Three, four truths. We go to Dan in West Des Moines, Iowa. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, uh first off I just I love your station, but um I've got three quick questions.

Hopefully we'll have enough time. The first one is is speaking in tongues by faith? Biblical or do you need a Holy Spirit? um encounter um before speaking in tongue. It's both and Dan.

In other words, The Holy Spirit has to do something because we can't manufacture the words. This is not like scat singing where you just go, you know, bada, bada, ba, ba, bada, you know, you know, and then you just make up words.

So the Holy Spirit has to touch you. But then it is by faith that you speak in tongues. Really, everything we do in the Lord is by faith. When you go to share the gospel with a sinner, it's by faith that you are bringing God's message and you are God's vessel to do it. When you take out the Bible and read it and say, This is God's word, it's by faith.

That you're doing it.

So, yes, the Holy Spirit has to touch you, but then thereafter, it's done by faith. And there are times where you might strongly feel the Holy Spirit moving on you. And speaking in tongues is just the natural outlet of what's happening in your inner being. And there are other times where you don't specifically feel something, but you want to pray. And now you say, okay, I'm going to pray in the Spirit for a little while.

So many times when I go to pray, I don't feel anything, but I'll begin to pray in the Spirit. And I pray in the Spirit sometimes an hour. And then, in the midst of that, my mind begins to get insight as to how I should pray. I begin to get leading, and then I begin to pray in English.

So, both and.

Next. And then uh the next question, Acts chapter two. Um, it seems like there's a lot of emphasis on what is being spoken as it being foreign languages, but it could it be When you read there, it says the word I says everyone heard and it says and that we all hear. Could it be that they were just hearing The multitude was just hearing the languages. Are there own languages or was it specifically I mean, could they have been speaking?

Yeah, yeah, there is that argument that the miracle was in the hearing. that that the believers were just speaking Out of the overflow of their Spirit with the Holy Spirit upon them, speaking in heavenly languages, and that the hearing was supernatural. One of my friends, many years ago was at a meeting And there was a non-believing Filipino man there. And they heard my friend. Giving a salvation message in his specific dialect where he grew up.

and the man got gloriously saved. And my friend said, Mike, I was speaking in tongues like I normally do. I think God touched his ears to hear. But uh that's possible. But I don't want to argue for it because the the most Natural reading would be that the languages were being spoken and there were different languages spoken.

But in any event, the way it happened in Pentecost with the sound of the wind and the tongues of fire and the different languages, that's not necessarily the norm, the way we can expect it to happen all the time.

Okay, and then the last Question. Most Pentecostals believe this, and I'm Just wondering if this is accurate that the only evidence of The baptism of the Holy Spirit is tongues or tongues first. Is that accurate, or could it? The Um. the baptism of the Holy Spirit, could that be something else, that terminology that you They use the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Usually just Specifically for tongues. Yes, so if we many believers say the moment you're saved, you're baptized. uh with the spirit The moment you're saved, and they would point to passages that they feel would emphasize that. But for those of us who believe that the moment you're saved, the Spirit immerses you into the body of Messiah and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within you. But the baptism of the Spirit, meaning being empowered by the Spirit, that is something separate and subsequent, that's my view.

Certainly, we'd never divide over that. And the assemblies of God, and maybe most Pentecostals say that the initial outward evidence is speaking in tongues. I would say, sir, it is the most common. It's the most common pattern in the book of Acts, but it's not the only. There could be prophecy or some other manifestation of a gift indicating that someone has been supernaturally empowered by the Spirit.

So I don't. I do not agree with the idea that it is the Initial manifestation. I would say it's the most common. scripturally and for some other reasons as well, but not the only. Manifestation or always the first.

Thank you. Very important questions. All right.

We've just got a few minutes, but we'll get to one last call. Brent in Durham, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, Dr. Brown. I really like your show.

Thank you. My question was: the church has head too sometimes. The pastor, well, pretty much every time, the pastor will have.

someone out of the congregation pray over the offering or pray As relieving, or you know, say like the starting prayer, things like that. Is that okay to do? Oh, you better believe it. Yeah, there's no pattern in scripture where there's just one person doing everything. No, by all means, there should be congregational participation.

And the smaller the meeting, like house meeting and things like that, there should be widespread participation. Paul gives explicit instructions about it in 1 Corinthians 11 with women praying and prophesying during the service. And in 1 Corinthians 14, he lays out a pattern of what we should expect. That one has a teaching and one has a tongue, one has an interpretation, one has a revelation, one has a hymn, one has a prophecy.

So by all means, this is the body doing the ministry. And uh absolutely. Yes, so so you do have leadership in the body, you do have shepherds, you do have elders, they have a role to to guide the flock, to edify, to protect from error. They should especially be teachers of the word as well and leaders of integrity. But by all means, there should be participation.

The more the better. And then let the the senior leader or leaders do the specific things they do best and and that they are called to do, but let others be involved. God works through the whole body. And to the extent we understand that, And get that in our hearts and minds, then God can use us out in the streets, God can use us out. In the world as well.

So, absolutely all for it, Brent. Thank you for asking. All right, friends, I am going to transition. and get to a brand new subject. As we're going to talk Kingdom of God and politics.

with Reverend James Robinson. I don't know anyone personally who is closer to Donald Trump right now Then James Robinson. I don't know anyone personally closer to Donald Trump than James Robinson.

So I want to ask him some honest questions as well you're going to want to hear in the next 30 minutes. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Alright, we are Going to focus on politics and the kingdom of God right now. I'm not going to take Any calls during this next half hour. And I want to speak with James Robinson.

We become very dear friends the last couple of years. It's a relationship that has deeply blessed me. And I don't know anyone on the planet personally. Who is closer Donald Trump, right now, than James Robinson.

Now, I don't mean no such person exists. I mean, I don't know anyone personally. I have no relationship with anyone personally. was any closer to Donald Trump James Robinson.

Now, I've been invited to several meetings with other leaders and Donald Trump, and every time I was unable to. participate in the meetings. But on a very regular basis, I'm hearing from my friend James Robinson. He's giving me input.

So I want to ask him some very honest questions today about Donald Trump. I don't think we can exaggerate the importance of the upcoming elections. James, as always, great to speak with you on the air today. Hello, are you there? I'm here.

All right, great. James, we've just got a few minutes in this opening segment. How long have you been involved meeting with political leaders here in America? No, and we're live on the air. This is not you just asking me.

No, no, we are live on the air, sir.

Okay.

Yeah. Michael, I've been talking and you asked how long I've been with Mr. Trump, correct? No, just with political. Yeah, no, before that, your involvement with political leaders.

How far does that go back?

Well, I began taking a very bold stand in the late seventies. I was put off television. largest ABC affiliate in the South, And that's where we were our flagship station where we shipped out all of our weekly programs. And I read. As a matter of fact, Mike Huckabee probably introduced me.

I read Romans chapter 1, and you know how strong I can be enforceable and loud in a stadium, but I'm sitting in a chair. And I read Romans 1 and I talk about what's happening.

So go to Romans 1. Chapter 1, verse 18, and go through the end of the chapter. I said, these things are happening because we have cast the Word of God aside. Here are the consequences. unnatural affections basically Against nature's law, nature's God.

And when you change them the truth into a lie to accommodate it, you become controlled. by affections and desires, that are even beyond nature. And it's literally lists all of our things. And I made reference. I said, you know, we have a real serious problem right now.

With homosexuality, and I've got to be honest with you, this is before AIDS. I said it's going to prove to be a detriment to health. That's all I said. And I am kicked off the air with the fairness doctrine by a gay group that complain, and I'm off the air. Totally off the air.

I have no time. Parent is talking, I have no time, and the gays got my time. And so I said to the President, this is not right. I can't step back. I have to stand up.

Well, the whole nation stood up with me. I crafted a bumper sticker, freedom of speech, the right to preach. And we fill the Coliseum. This is not the National Affairs Briefing where Reagan endorsed us a year a little over a year later. This was to get James Robinson back on the air.

freedom of speech, the right to preach. We took on the fairness doctrine. and we took on what had happened to a preacher. who was preaching. Freedom of speech, the right to preach.

That was my bumper sticker. And Mm-hmm. Yeah. came to First Baptist Church. Ask Dr.

Christopher if they could walk over the platform with me. I was preaching eight nights at First Papers, and it was overflowing every night. And he came and said, We're going to put James Robinson back on television Sunday. Of course, it exploded. But what happened in a freedom rally.

that led to that, in that building that was overflowing. Was we took on the Paradise Stock and we defeated them. I'm just going to jump in there. We'll be right back on the other side of the break and we'll catch up. From that confrontation until today.

With my special guest, James Robinson, I know you won't go anywhere. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire as we speak now about the intersection of the kingdom of God and politics. And the role of pastors and leaders in our presidential elections. My guest, James Robinson, has never endorsed a candidate and is on record not to endorse a candidate. And when I felt to endorse Senator Cruz, he said, Michael, do what you feel is right to do, but here are the reasons I believe it's best not to endorse.

So he is not here to endorse a candidate. What he clearly says is he is endorsing truth, but he has some very, very strong words for us, some things that I want to encourage you to hear. Carefully, listen to carefully as he has spent many hours now with Donald Trump, and his perspective is something I want to hear.

So, James, just to finish this up, it was the late 70s. You took on the government, you took on the fairness doctrine, and now you're preaching at First Baptist for Dr. Criswell. The announcement is that you're going to go back on the air. Freedom of speech, the right to preach.

What happened?

Well, the rally itself there, they put me back on the air because they put me back on within a week, and then the fairness doctrine battle went until I became. The keynote speaker at the National religious broadcasters in Reagan also spoke. We both spoke. We were keynote speakers. And we talked about overthrowing the Fairness Doctrine.

The FCC, the entire board, was sitting at the head table with me. And I went over the account.

So we stood up together as the Christians who would not have our voices silenced, and we refused to have it. And that's one of the best decisions ever to overthrow that doctrine.

Now Little do we realize. that uh I would actually be a part of sharing with mister Reagan a prayer meeting that Billy Graham called with me and uh Bill Bright and Charles Staylor, Adrian Rogers and a couple of others. And it was so powerful, they said we got to find somebody who will represent us. And I'm Southern Baptist, and so is Billy Graham, and we got a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher in the White House. And Billy Graham emphatically said, I don't think we have the principal leadership to stand up against the Soviet threat.

I think we're going to lose freedom in three years. Out of that prayer meeting, somehow God just opened the way for me to go and sit alone with. with Mr. Reagan and share what those men said and and his his associates told me he had actually contemplated not running. And after I visited and talked with him, he knew he had the rock.

Now that's that's the report coming back from Jerry Nager and some others. And sure enough, he did. We had a fabulous time of prayer. And a little later, when he got into the campaign, I let him know that I was going to host a meeting. I'd had several candidates speak at our Bible conference, John Connolly.

Phil Crane, Jack Kemp, Phyllis Schlafy spoke for one of the first times she ever spoke to a big audience. And I told mister Reagan, I said, I want Christians to hear the truth. And would you do a rally where I'll invite all the candidates? I'm going to call it a national affairs briefing, and I don't think the other two candidates, Anderson or Um, President Carter will come, and sure enough, they turned me down right off, and he said yes, and we planned it. And he was with me all the way, National Affairs Briefing.

That's where he made the famous statement. I know this is bipartisan. You can't endorse me because I said I won't endorse. As I said, walking on the platform, I met with him all afternoon with Governor Carley and several others, General Daniel Graham and others. plus a lot of people who wanted to support him that we brought together that had never met him.

So it was a fabulous day. It changed everything. Paul Manifold even told me that. He said, Well, I was behind the scenes, James. It changed everything.

And his friend said he was never the same. He told me that the next day. Ronald Reagan said, The greatest meeting of my life. Nancy said, biggest thing I've ever seen happen to Ron. I've never seen this exciting.

So we became friends there, and he goes on and wins. But when he walked up to the podium after I spoke, he's sitting right behind me, I held the Bible up. I said, don't commit yourself to politicians or parties, but to the principles in this book that America will forever be the great in the land of the free and home of the brave, so forth. Just preach. He's applauding.

He's just wonderful. Then he walks up and says, I know this is a bipartisan. You can't endorse me. I only say that because I want you to know I endorse you. That was headlines nationwide.

And all of a sudden, the conservative believers and Christians and concerned Christians who were troubled about our security, they rose up and mister Reagan won. It was basically really a landslide against an incumbent, and then it was an almost unequaled landslide the second time.

So the the point is that Christians have to stand. And I even told Paul Vark and Jerry Falwell, I said, I don't think Mormon Majority is a good title. It sounds arrogant and pompous. And Paul Wyrick and Jerry did do it. And they were I I think those two men and Paul Wyrick and after Buffley was probably the inspiration of the conservative movement and gave great wisdom.

And of course, Jerry Palwell became a great voice. But I said, this is not going to last. I told him that within two years, you've become an arm of a political party. And rather than speaking to all parties, all candidates and all voters, you now look like an appendage of a party, and the Republican Party is not totally healthy.

So I really discouraged it. And I actually told Harry and Paul, it won't last. But the influence of the church must last. But we get actively involved in the party of our choice, but we bring the principles of the Word of God. and the unshakable principles, foundation that freedom stands on, we bring those to all parties and every representative that's in Congress, every elected official, every leader and every candidate running and every voter.

And Michael, you've known me now for quite a while. You're as prolific a writer as we have on the stream. You've got two unbelievable articles on stream.org right now. I'm reading over some of the things that I, along with the stream, have been crafting this week should be up by Thursday. And this, as we talked this morning, is the beginning of an interview where you're asking me.

About what's happening, and we're going to continue it on the stream because you and I will continue to talk after we go off the air. And I want to thank you for that. Let me just save the whole world. I don't know of many people that I have any if any any greater respect for. I have a lot of great leaders, and I'm telling you, great pastors, great leaders, great apologists, great conservative voices.

You're one of them. And the gift God has given you. Many people say I'm a good communicator. I'm grateful for them saying that. You are a writer that has a pen as anointed as anybody in our day, and I want to thank you.

But we're going to continue this interview where you ask me questions. And I know what one of the things led to this discussion right here. He is People were saying to me, You think any Christians can ever talk to Trump? And this is after a lot of our good Christian friends are no longer on the platform. Huckabee, Santorum, Ben Carson, Ben Crum.

Uh Our man from here, my goodness, he's going to be unhappy with. Rafael Cruz, I mean, what a champion. And Walker and even Kasich and I are very close. I mean, man, it's just, we had tremendous. I think Cardi Furing was great.

All of them and suddenly we got Donald Trump. And people said, well, we're done. We can't talk to him. And I started saying this the moment it looked like he might get the nod. And everybody kind of laughed about it, and it's exactly what I said.

You may have remembered me saying it to you: I'm going to build a tunnel to Donald Trump that makes choppers look like a mistake.

Now what did I mean by that? This man must hear a continuous stream of transforming truth presented in love. Love for him, love for his family, love for the nation, and love for freedom. And God miraculously using Dr. Ben Carson to say to Donald Trump, all the people If I'm going to endors you, I want you to meet privately with, I want you to listen to James Ross.

That started seven months ago and has not ended. And I want to go ahead and say this because I know it'll arouse curiosity. in fifty five years of public ministry. And one of the things I told Donald Trump in our first meeting within the first five minutes, the two most humble people I've ever met in my life, and they're tremendously famous, Ronald Reagan and Billy Graham. And I looked at him and I said, you know, you're not noted for your humility.

You're an intimidator and a manipulator. but I said we're going to go somewhere where we can inspire and motivate. And you're going to learn humility.

Well, I'm going to go on record now. This is back in April. Let me just shout it to the world. Nobody Nobody. has been more humble more receptive.

More appreciative. than Donald Trump in fifty five years of ministry. And I want everybody to flesh out this thought. Jesus said, If they receive you, they receive me. I'm telling you, he's received me and he's still listening.

And I don't mince words, but I want to go on and say this too. And boy, do we pray to see the total manifestation of this next statement. in fifty five years of being received by people. I have never seen a one of them that over a period of time did not begin to openly wonderfully confess Christ and manifest the attributes of that Christian walk.

So if we don't see and see what you all don't know behind the scenes is I see, I see a man broken, embarrassed, hurt. By his own traders. And let me just go ahead and say: if you're not listening to Melania, listen to him. And by the way, just stop in your tracks if you think this is an endorsement. No, this is an endorsement of doing things right.

And I'm doing something right, and Dr. Brown is. proclaiming the truth without wavering. and proclaiming it to every person on the planet. And I'm doing that.

I'm telling you about a person's response That is in the spotlight, and people are saying, Well, is he contrite? Was Simon Peter contrite enough for most of the examiners today? I don't see him weeping. He couldn't even seem to answer Jesus' question. They finally ended up answering, do you even like me?

But even while he was asking the questions, he said, I got an assignment for you. I want you to tend the sheep. I want you to feed the sheep. And who would have ever thought the man that denied Jesus three times in the moment of his greatest crisis. I mean, you know, most faith groups think if you deny Jesus, you forfeit your salvation.

He denied him three times. And this big, boastful, bold man actually denied him in front of a woman.

Now how much courage is that? This is the same man that made the confession thereof to Christ. Jesus said, Man didn't reveal that to you, God did, and upon this ability to hear God, I built my church. And then the next time he opened his mouth, he rebuked him as faith.

So I think we better be careful evaluating people's expressions. I'm telling you, I have seen Donald Trump broken and receptive. And I hope we can talk more about what I'm doing. All right, we'll do it. We'll do it.

I've got some questions when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome back, friends, to the line of fire. I said earlier in the broadcast that my friend James Robinson had a message in his heart he wanted to shout to the world. We're doing our best to facilitate that on the broadcast again. I personally don't know anyone who has spent as much time With Donald Trump, as James Robinson has.

So, James, the obvious question that everyone wants to know is: look, Trump's a manipulator. He's a businessman. He's experienced, he's been around, he knows the ways of the world. You know, they just know how these guys, the politicians, businessmen, they know how to take advantage of Christians. They know how to get your votes, get you behind them, and then when they're elected, they just throw you away.

What makes you so sure that that's not the case, that his receiving of you has something sincere about it? All right, let me just say First, I'm a forceful person, and I'm going to make my point, and I've got points to make that I think are important enough to be heard. And I just texted my secretary. I said, She said, maybe you can slow down a little bit. I can't because we've got limited time.

So I can pace myself because I don't like to talk as fast as I'm talking. I'm not a New Yorker. Tell me how much time I've got. I want to answer in relationship, and I know I tried to get it all, but it doesn't lodge in my mind. How many more minutes we have?

We've got seven and a half minutes right now on the air. All right.

Well then let me slow down just a little bit.

Now you're asking about, repeat the question because I had to get that said. I mean, I've got to slow down. You said, I've spent a lot of time with him. Is he manipulating me? And so forth.

Okay, I answered that really when I said that I spoke to him. You have operated with intimidation and manipulation, and he's pretty good at it. He was intimidating even the other candidates. I am encouraging you to move from intimidation to inspiration, and I won't stop. But I don't think I'll ever take away his knockout punch.

It's reflexes, it's a part of the strength of this man. I mean, there are certain attributes that great people have that we ought to recognize as being a gift from God. That title, even if you're not a Christian, it reigns on the just and the unjust. Every good and perfect gift comes from God, period. And I said, God's given you these gifts, and you've used them pretty much for yourself.

I'm glad you love your family. I hope you'll become a father to a nation. And Eric, by the way, sat beside me when I said that. Basically, we kind of locked up a high five. Let's help your dad learn to be a father to the nation.

Because Eric's great dad to me. And we never have left that. Eric has just been phenomenal.

So has Laura. Everybody around Donald Trump has been just unbelievable. I just wish people could know him. That's why so much of what I hear, I see the nonsense of it and I see the horror of what he's done wrong. And you don't ever have to wonder if I lay it on the line.

Don't ever wonder that. But don't judge him by whether or not he's responding in public like you want him to, because if he admits guilt with a terrible brokenness and continues that, then every accuser is going to say, see, that's the way he is. He's guilty. It's confirming everything we say, which is simply not the truth. Any good lawyer will tell that.

When people are trying to accuse you of being guilty, deal with what's relative, try to deal with it appropriately and everything else. Don't keep standing up and saying, you know, I'm guilty, I'm guilty. They're going to put it on everything. That's just wise advice from an attorney. Still have to cover a lot of ground.

He is not manipulating me. He knows when I walk in the room and when I'm sitting with him or publicly, I don't endorse any candidate. I endorse God's principles in truth, delivered in love, but very forcefully. I'm sitting with 42 pastors. And and Frank Turek, who hosted it there in North Carolina this week, And I had talked about our interaction and we're getting ready to close.

I said, I've started talking to you in April, sir. Would you say that I am delivering it in unconditional love? Yes. Am I forceful? I'd say you're forceful.

I mean, might I be a little bit intense? And everybody laughed. You said, yeah, I'll say you're intense.

Okay, that's the person. And I'm targeting now trying to in the past trying to cover some ground. He has absolutely With No manipulation of me. We settle that right off. And I'm doing everything I can to say, sir, move from intimidation to inspiration.

and motivate Don't manipulate. He has never, never, never tried to manipulate me. He knew he'd be wasting his time.

So when he asked me to travel with him last week, and he was so excited. He wanted to hear. And I can tell you, Rudy Giannani watches the conversation, watches matters, all of the staff does. Aye. Do not waver.

And it's not my position I'm representing. It is the position of the word of God and every committed to God and His Word, pastor and priest on the planet. And if you go to the stream every day, You're going to hear the greatest Catholics. I invited a Catholic leader and a deacon yesterday to speak to his faith council. Trump's paid council.

And by the way, Jack Graham called me last night and he said, you know the only thing wrong with the message you preached this morning to the Faith Council? He said it should have been broadcast to the whole world.

Well I had heard that all day. And I take that as a compliment from Jack Brown. One of the greatest things was I asked a Catholic to come on and address all those evangelicals. You know what Jack Graham said when he complimented my message? He said, I'll tell you that Catholic deacon, I don't think I've ever heard anybody so full of Jesus.

I wanted to listen to that man some more. Michael? we have allowed the enemy to tear the body of Christ apart. And anybody that listens to you Writing the truth like you do, defending the truth like you do, and hears it as a cheap shot at somebody that's defeated. There is none of that in you.

I need to say something right here. There are two imperfect people talking on this phone right now. That's why we need the grace and the forgiveness of our wonderful Savior who redeemed us. And by the way, we might just tell Harry. Nobody is not redeemable.

including a strong bow Big mouth. boastful, successful businessman. And for her to call any of us deplorables and unredeemable, you tell Hillary Clinton, go ahead and send her the tape. There ain't a person on the planet that's unredeemable. And she may look back and remember a situation where she needed a download of her empty power.

We've got to have it. And I'm not going to waver from proclaiming it. And I'm going to stand with all the pastors and priests and Christians and believe God can use any imperfect person. To accomplish his perfect will, but here's the bottom line, and I've said this on your program before. when the imperfect person will receive The wisdom Freely offered by our Father.

That's when the will is accomplished. And if anybody thinks some politician is gonna get this nation out of the pit we dug. Casting God's word aside. They are gonna be Rudely awakened, and they're going to live deceived until they find themselves no longer in a bit. but in a grave.

And that is frankly where we're headed. It's one statement. Imperfect people on the phone. You and I missed the mark. We don't move the mark.

The mark reproves us, corrects us and brings us back to center. Once we try to justify A lifestyle that defies the word of God. We have no point of conviction. We will not get toward confession and conversion. We will move any possibility of becoming guilty.

before Almighty God for walking in our own rebellious way. I miss the mark. I fail, I struggle. You don't hear many people today who are totally trapped by their appetites that are even unnatural from any point of view. They moved the standard to say God made us this way.

That standard's not reliable. Let's deny it. Let's move it. Let's cast it aside. No church of Jesus Christ.

Christians. Lift the standard so high. That people move to the standard. And Jesus says: as a city on a hill, as salt and light. If you will lift me up.

I will draw men to myself. Not to religion. not to traditions of man. But to life. And Michael, that's what I'm going to do with Donald Trump and every person that has ears to hear.

And I look forward to continuing this interview with you. We will continue, friends. Donald Trump is hearing the gospel. Pray for him. Pray for him.