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Fun fact, no. I have to make my own with McDonald's Sprite, and you guessed it, Texas Pete. I am genuinely horrified to hear that.
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We're going to leave a couple of links right there in the description, so you can do just that. And we are here in The Clear View Today studio with Dr. Abbadon Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, alongside very special guest, Ms. Victoria Collins. Back again, Victoria. So glad to be here. We had you on the show a couple of weeks back, and since that time, people have been writing in, texting, like, oh my goodness, that was one of the greatest couple of episodes I have ever heard.
Just as a brief recap, Victoria, you were Mormon, raised Mormon, walked away from that faith, atheist for three years, and then came to know Jesus Christ. And since that episode aired, since both those episodes aired, just kind of telling that story, people have been writing in and being like, wow, we want her back. And it was really amazing. Yeah.
We want to hear more. Yeah. Typically, we have conversations about Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness or any such heresies. I mean, that's what they are. They are not biblical Christianity. Even if they call themselves Christians, there's nothing Christian when you don't acknowledge that Jesus Christ was God in flesh. Fully God became fully man, the second person of the Godhead. If that cannot be acknowledged, then you do not have Christianity. You may have something, but it's not biblical Christianity. It's not the way, the truth, and the life.
So we can talk about it in theological terms, but hearing your testimony was very touching, was awesome, and no wonder people respond so well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. How's it been since you've been on the show last? It's been great, actually. It's been interesting and just seeing that there's so many people out there that have these same questions that really don't know. I loved talking to you guys since you grew up in Christian homes and the questions you generally had. That's just not talked about, or maybe you guys don't have the understanding on how to approach, so it's really great that other people also have those questions. Oh, definitely.
Yeah. And the heart is not to just inform people about your story, but to resource people, to give people the help that they need to bridge that conversation gap. There have been similar shows that have this same discussion. We're not the first Christian show to ever have on a guest who used to be Mormon, or even current Mormons, but it seems like the goal is always, oh, wow, these wacky Mormons, man. They believe some far out stuff. Thank goodness we believe the Bible. But I love what you said, and I think, Victoria, you said it as well before we started recording, is that the whole point of having this discussion is that there are Mormons out there, and a lot of times people will either just try to evangelize to them just the way they would do anyone else, or they'll just be like, ah, I'm not even going to touch that one.
And it's sad. One of the things that is... I remember the commercials back in the 90s on the family values. Do you remember those commercials?
It was so hot, warming commercials. I don't remember those, but I know they did come out with, I think maybe 10 or 15 years ago, they had Meet the Mormons. Have you guys seen that? And it was just like, okay, how are they in the community? And they actually put that out for in theaters.
And so it was just to tell them what they believe without really... You know what? I do think I remember that. I remember. I'm going to Google Meet the Mormons. Do they have the white shirts and the black ties and stuff like that?
I'm sure. But what a Mormon family would be like, and so they kind of give that description out there on what they're looking at. Meet the Mormons.
I do remember that. Rated PG. So what do they do in that show?
Just talk about their life, or just kind of walk with them? I actually have not seen it. I just know that that's something that they push because they want everybody to kind of know it's a normal thing without really understanding. I was just about to ask that very question. Is the goal of documentaries like that to be like, hey guys, this is the truth? Or is it like, hey, we're just like you? We're just normal people just like you?
That's a good question. It is, but the main thing that is wild to me is now... I was always told when I was younger, it was the one true church on earth. It was the only true church. So there was no other way.
If you went to a different church, they just didn't know the gospel and they weren't taught the full gospel and they didn't have all the knowledge. And so that's kind of what they would say. So it's a little wild that they're trying to mainstream it, you know?
Right. I do want to dive into the theology because the last couple episodes were very heavy on your story, your personal testimony. I want to dive into the theology, but before we do that, I do want to ask the white shirts, is that like a thing that is just in media or is that like really how a lot of... like, did you see Mormons dressed like that? So like the missionaries, they wear the white shirts, so they really do want you to wear a white shirt for a missionary for that age. Also, they do want you to wear... I'm not quite sure, but I know my dad was like, you weren't allowed to wear a different color underneath your suit. It'd have to be white.
But there is the white garments, which is also in the temple. And so you get your chastity pajamas. I don't know. I've heard all these funny things.
You said what? Like chastity pajamas. I don't really know.
What is that? They're like the holy underwear. Yes, they're just like... I don't know. They keep you sacred. Maybe don't Google that one.
I want to do it, but not on a work computer. They're very thin, okay? I know if my dad's black brown, I'm like, oh my gosh, he needs real underwear on, okay? Seriously.
Oh my gosh. But they were supposed to like keep purity and from anything, they're supposed to be extra protection kind of thing. And you had to be seen worthy through the temple to wear them. So the white shirt, black pants, that's a thing. That's a thing. But then the underwear, like the underwear's another thing too. Right. Yeah, I didn't know you had to get away from the underwear.
When you say white pants, I was like, okay. I'm with you. I'm with you. Yes.
Wow. So why missionaries? They wouldn't wear that to Sunday worship or to church. That's for missionaries. You know, missionaries, it's for anybody over the age of 18 that have went through the temple.
So they'd have to wear the garments and they had symbols on them, I think on both of the nipple areas as well. But I'm so glad that I, I was always so mad that my parents stopped going to church at 13, but I'm also glad that I never had to go through the temple. I never had to do the rituals.
I never had to experience that. Yeah. That's God's grace. Amen. You know, God's providence to sometimes your parents endured through that and God still saved them.
You didn't have to because God knew that you didn't need to go through that for a purpose. Yeah. Amen. You know, for a purpose.
That's right. You know, I want to, before we dive into the, I'm glad you bring that up because before we dive into the theology, Dr. Shaw, do you just want to speak on the importance of doctrine? Because I think there's some people listening out there, maybe not a lot, but I think there's some people who would be like, what, why are we even talking about this? It's all the same.
You just believe slightly different things. So you know, I'm, I'm known for controversy, but sometime back, you guys know what I'm talking about. The whole community came together. They were very excited about a young man who was going to go be a missionary. And I was still like, wow, this is great. Amazing.
Cause I know the person. I'm like, oh wow, this is amazing. But it didn't take but two minutes of scrolling down the pictures to go, wait, what, wait, that's Latter-day Saints. He's going to be a missionary with the Latter-day Saints. So I'm like, no, that's, that cannot be, that cannot be. I mean, he's, he's sang at weddings, churches, funerals, everything.
And I'm thinking that that cannot be. So I'm looking through it cause I know the person too, by the way. And sure enough, and it's church folks, Christians, Christians who are coming along and saying, so proud of you. Go out there. You're going to make a difference with Jesus Christ. And I sat in utter shock and I came and told them, y'all remember that day?
I said, you won't believe this. And, and it was, it was not just a shock, but it was heartbreaking because the whole time I thought a lot about this young man and then to hear that he was going in the mission field, it was like, oh, okay, this is great. And then to go, no, this is wrong. He's going on mission, like on Mormon mission. This is, yeah, he was going to go and he's still there doing this Mormon thing.
And, and pictures are posted constantly now. And it's heart-wrenching to me because that is as deep as you go in the pit of darkness is how I see it. That's, that's got nothing to do with God. That's got nothing to do with the biblical Christianity. They're trying right now to shift it. They're trying to, they literally are trying to shift it to look more like the gospel, which is wild to me. So the things that they, they're trying to change, but yeah, it's the rite of passage.
You have to be 18 and go on a mission and like, if you don't, then you've done something wrong. And they go for a month of like, just learning what to say, how to approach. And if people start asking questions like that, they're the enemy and the enemy's trying to get to them. So stop going. When you say asking questions, you mean like people like cross-examining them or trying to poke holes in their theology?
Right. Cause a lot of missionaries, like pastors will bring them in and they'll be like, okay, sit down. And then they'll just feed them truth. They'll listen to their spiel and they'll feed them truth. And, and we, they were told and anybody that would question anything that had to go along with what Mormonism was, they would say, oh, the enemy's just getting to you.
Just go pray about it and go off of your feelings. And that's why it's so important to know the word of God. It is so important because it's so easy to mess up the Trinity.
It's so, you know, my dad goes to some spots and that's, I'm so thankful that the Lord is really opening and just having these conversations. But you know, where he says he's the son, how is he the son? And you're just thinking of such a humanized God. You are not looking at big God.
You're not seeing the big picture because they have just a worldly perspective. And it looks great cause it's like values. Like we don't drink, we don't smoke, we don't do this. If you don't do that, if you don't drink, if you don't smoke, if you dress modestly, if you do all these things, then you can go through the temple and it's all these checkmark things. So wow, their values look good, especially to a young couple that are like, oh, my parents went to church.
And so they kind of just feed on that. And that's where the missionaries kind of like get in there. Cause they're like, oh, well I prayed and they might've prayed the night before a lot of people's testimonies.
I prayed and I said, God, what church should I bring my, I should take my kids to church. And then all of a sudden these more missionaries show up, you know? You said something a few moments ago about they're trying to make a shift. Are you saying that they're probably making a shift towards biblical Christianity or is that something is happening there? Where, um, yeah, where God is. They said that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
Right. So, I mean, they're not there yet, but there is a... No, they're trying to, and they're also doing Bible studies at home. So they're going through the New Testament. And I remember the week that they were going through it, the people around me, they were going through Romans and I was just like, how can you read Romans and not see it?
Like Romans is my book. The reason I bring that up is because it's been years ago. I don't know if you've heard of the Worldwide Church of God. This was led by a man by the name of Herbert Armstrong. It was also known as Armstrong-ism. Is it still there? No, here's what happened. This is daddy who started this. And it was sort of coming out of the Seventh Day Adventist type movement, but it went heretical.
Very quickly it went off the deep end. I mean, I would put it on the same level as Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness. It was not biblical Christianity. It's not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It's not the Messiah prophesied in the old New Testament. None of that.
Trinity is not there. And what happened is, interestingly, which never happens, but it happened, where after father died, the son took on the leadership. And under his leadership from 1986 onwards, they made a shift to biblical Christianity.
Wow. So what was the name of the religion again or the movement? The movement was Worldwide Church of God. But now it is known as Grace Communion International.
You can Google it and you'll find it. And they've morphed into... The son actually led...
So I don't know where father is going to be one day, but I know this much. The son led the movement into biblical Christianity. So if the movement... So what is the movement?
Now are they just Christians? Yeah. I mean, this has been a while back since I had researched this, but as you were talking, it made me immediately remember back to that. See, like, Wikipedia, again, not the most perfect source when it comes to that, but this is what they say.
Much of GCI, which is Grace Communion International's current doctrine follows mainstream Protestant beliefs that faith in Jesus is the only way to receive salvation and that the Bible is the divinely inspired and infallible word of God. So this... So it happens... It does, but that's on such a smaller level. I mean, that happens, I know, in churches for sure. And I think there's that hope, but Mormonism is so much deeper than that. And I love here because you guys actually go on the trips and you see, like, this is the Bible comes alive. Like, these places that we read about in the Old Testament are real places that you can go to. You know, the Book of Mormon does talk about, because this is like the new...
This is like the promised... This is Zion, and this is the promised land and all the things, but there's no archeological proof. There's none of that. You can't say that. I mean, the Bible, there's proof. You know you can. You guys have seen it.
And so that's like one of the things that is hard for them to explain. Okay, all these wars happen in New York, and yet there's no arrowheads. There's no nothing. Like, there's nothing left behind.
Come on, bro. It's all just buried under the concrete. That's where it is. Even I think the newest one, there's a book that they refer, like, where they took places, which states they did. Somebody actually in North Carolina made this book in reference to the Book of Mormon. And so I was like, it's funny, but there are also some of the Mayan temples. They're trying to claim that that was... Part of the same thing.
Wow. It's funny to me. And Brigham Young University, this is where you have reputable academics. So moments you get in the academic world, of course, there are liberals and there are secularists and all that.
And I know they say the Bible is not the word of God. So I know there are those kind of people, too. But at least at the heart of academics, there is that understanding that we're going to be objective. I really do not know how Mormon academics are objective when they're reading their texts or doing that. It's like, these things don't exist, but we're going to make a big paper on this.
It's funny to me. How do they do that? I don't know, but you know that would be really good to actually look into and see because what are you teaching in these? Maybe there's not a class like that.
What if there is not a class like that? And they're just going off of the biblical. Right. Like Protestant or even liberal Christian theologians will disagree on things or miracles that happen and stuff like that. But at least they can say, oh, yes, there is an Israel, there is Egypt, there is Greece and Jordan and all that. There's real places and real things happen in history.
But we take it that God did not do miracles or whatever. Right. I can.
I can. OK, let's let's discuss that. How do they do this when there is no such Christians? There are even really famous Christians that we are, hail as heroes of the faith who will say, listen, a lot of the Old Testament is myth. It's myth.
It didn't happen. But those principles are there. Does that exist in the Mormon Church where people will be like, hey, look, Joseph Smith, he didn't do all that stuff. You're kind of shunned if you ask questions, which is so wild. I love being a Christian now because, like, you can ask all those questions and there's answers. Like, there's answers. But you if you had questions like that, but also it's a peer thing, like you have a group of family, they bring you in and they love you and they serve you and they take care of you. So you really don't question. You know, they kind of spoon feed you the things that you need to hear and whatnot.
But you don't I don't think that you question it. That's why people stay so long. But now there's the Internet, you know, there's the Internet.
Like the Internet source. I was like, but there's been people that have come to salvation just googling things. And wow, you know, as evil as it is, it is a lot of times there is still good. That is a great point.
You left when you were 13. So I don't know how much you remember, but how much of like Mormon preaching is theology versus like like, hey, this is what Joseph Smith did. And these are historical things that happened versus this is how you should live your life to be good. It's more of reciting like in the kids. And it was called primary. Like it was just reciting the word of wisdom, the articles of faith, like all the things that you say.
They give you a manufactured testimony. My testimony is that that would you most kids say that it started with Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. So we are taught that that's how we started. The brainwash. As a child. And so when my parents were pulling away, I thought I literally was like drowning because I was like, this is how I believed.
Like I, I really believed and I was a child. And so I just was like, oh my gosh, we're going to go to hell. Like we're going to go to hell or there's three tiers. We're going to go to the telestrial or whatever the outer darkness. Could you go to hell if you denied Joseph Smith?
Is that, will that like, is he For sure. And the day that I got saved, I had said that out loud and I felt like a dark presence and then it left and I've, I've always like, oh my gosh, this is so wild. But honestly, as just, I denounced it, you have to denounce those things because the spiritual is real. Would they deny, would they deny that they put Joseph Smith on the same level as Jesus or would they say, we do that and it's fine. So it doesn't say that in the Book of Mormon, but they had like the little side books, you know, they're always something more, but they also had like little manuscripts and where he boasted that he had suffered more than Jesus Christ when he was tarred and feathered. And so, wow.
Wow. If I, if I, if I went to a Mormon elder or a Mormon Bishop, priest, Bishop, Bishop, if I went to them and said, listen, I'm, I'm bought in, I believe that Jesus Christ did everything that the Bible and that the Book of Mormon said, I just don't believe Joseph Smith was a, was a prophet. Would they say, you can't be saved? You can't do that. I don't know. I don't think so.
That would be interesting. I don't know. They're kind of desperate right now.
They're kind of desperate. And there is a shift because I think there's a shift in general in our country. Like I'm seeing young Christians come to faith that their parents never even went to church. I sat next to a girl a year ago on the plane and she's seen my cross necklace, which I could never wear before, which is really scary to me, but could not wear a cross.
Yeah. Because they didn't believe that Jesus took on our sin on the cross. The cross was just a gruesome thing that he had to do.
Like it was, they really diminished the actual, there was no, there was no payment. There was no payment for sin on the cross. No, it was done in the garden of Gethsemane.
All the sin was taken on there. Wow. Crazy. Isn't it?
That is crazy. Here's a question for you, Dr. Shaw. Why do you think, because when you talk about beliefs like this, Mormons, Jehovah's witness, even Muslims, there's always a fee and I don't know if it's genuine or not, but there's always this image that they're way more devout than Christians are. Christians seem to be, do you think there's any, the Christians seem to be more lax. Like, Hey, look, we're all, we're all good. We believe in God. You believe you do your thing. But all these others are like, no, this is the one, this is the one made religion.
All of these are manmade laws based on rules and regulations used to temper human beings, to bring some kind of a peaceful existence and, and a sense. I mean, nobody will join a religion that says we're going to just kill everybody and kill each other and hate everybody. Every day I get up, I'm going to hate my family. I'm going to be a mean person.
I'm going to be the worst neighbor possible. I don't know if anybody will join that religion. But if somebody says, Hey, we're going to come together and we're going to build our families and we're going to build our, our nation or our region or whatever, and we're going to spread peace. Yeah.
I mean, I want that. It sounds good on paper. And they, they, they are earning their salvation. So they, they, they're like, okay, I'm not going to drink. Well, I'm definitely not going to drink because I can't do this, this and this and this, or I'm not going to smoke.
So I'm not going to do this, this and this, or I'm not going to use that language because of this, this and this. And all of those checkmark things, they look like great people on the outside. So that's kind of exciting to see, but they don't, you know, have the actual root of Christ. It's man's way of getting to God. It's not God coming down to us. It's like, we got this and we acknowledge you, but we'll make you who we want you to be.
And we're building this road to heaven. I mean, that's it. Mormonism sounds very much like Islam.
Yeah. I mean, Muhammad had those, those visions and those experiences very painful and all that he talks about. So also Joseph Smith, when he, you know, he was, you know, all covered in sweat and all that.
I mean, very similar, similar things are happening there. And, and then they get the revelation and they have this passing down the revelation to the disciples and disciples take it to another level. Jon Sorrentino It is interesting to me that we're talking about these man-made religions that share similarities across the board. And like you were saying, Jon, they have the picture, almost the caricature of being so devout and so sold out on an idea that's wrong, but they've devoted every ounce of their being to. So then the impetus is on us as Christians. Like, why are we not, if we have the truth, we have genuinely what will save people for eternity.
Why are we not out there going and telling people like these other religions are? Jon Sorrentino You know, when you see Mormons on TV or in movies, it's usually depictions of Mormons. So I, there, there could be some exaggeration.
I'm sure there is. But they seem so happy. Mormons, like when you look at Mormons, they seem like, man, they've got it. Like they've got their families together. They are just the happiest people in the world.
Businesses are successful. Jon Sorrentino Yeah. They're clean cut, nice people, strong family values. Jon Sorrentino Lots of money.
Jon Sorrentino Lots of money. Just a picture of joy. Is that fake or is it real, but they're diluted? Like they've built, do you know what I'm asking? Like, are they putting on a show or is it, no, they're really happy. They're just twisted in their thinking. Jon Sorrentino So much money too. That's like the thing. Like so many of them. And I'm like, okay, well, Satan gives gifts too. And I realized that and just really successful businesses because they all know each other and they're intertwined and they just, it's just flowing.
Like it really is. Also, there's nobody that is paid on staff, right? So that's not their, the church isn't their job. These are just people that are in the congregation, like the Bishop and the leaders of the church, which to me seems problematic now that I look at it because they had all these other responsibilities yet they were in charge of these families, you know?
So that was like a secondary job and they were not paid or there was nothing, you know, keeping them there. And so, yeah, it's just, I think it's a way of life and it's promise. It's just fake promises. That's why you stay. Jon Sorrentino Wow.
That's incredible. You know, do you want to tell, we got about four minutes left, but you know, we also mentioned that Mormons have very strong family values, which on the, on paper sounds like a really good thing, but I know we were talking about this last, the last couple of weeks when you were here, that's actually one of the things that they, that kind of keeps you into that life. Dr. Dr. Sarah Lichtenberger They just hold your family captive and your salvation is in yourself more so than Jesus. He's just, that's just like a little piece of it. It's not the main piece of what saves you. And so they're just stuck in a workspace circle and it's understandable. I know how people stay there. Like I just know, and they, they shun you too. That's another thing. Like they bring you in as a family, but then if you have any questions, you are just outcast. Like there is no, you're not. Jon Sorrentino They really don't tolerate like, like, Hey, I've got some questions.
I need some clarity. Dr. Dr. Sarah Lichtenberger They don't. Jon Sorrentino It seems like it would be a, like a red flag in itself, but if you grew up in that, I mean, yeah, this is what we do. Dr. Sarah Lichtenberger Or the ritual in the like temple. And this is before in the seventies, my mom did shows with me and she said they threatened to cut her belly and her throat if she told anybody about it. And this is before she was getting sealed to her husband. And she's like, I remember just sitting in my car shocked. Like, did that really happen?
And you just do it because everybody else around you is doing it. Jon Sorrentino If they threatened to cut her, if she disclosed information about the ritual. Dr. Sarah Lichtenberger The ritual.
Yeah. And they give you a new name and all that stuff, which is happening in America. It's happening next door. And so guys, don't, don't, I know it's super exciting as Christians and we get like almost angry cause you see Satan's work and in a religion that is not, you know, that just takes our family captive. But how you approach a Mormon is with love and you show them Jesus because they are not going to look at a Bible. They might, especially if they're deep in it, they're not going to look at a Bible, but they are going to see how you treat them. And we laugh about it. And I know that you guys, if you were in the Bible, you look at it and you're just like, how did this happen? But it is happening. It's happening now.
Like there is a family and they could be next door. And so just love them, show them that they are forgiven because when you are stuck in a workspace salvation, you literally think that you are going to, you need to be good. And nobody here is good enough because Jesus did it. And so just lots of grace and love. Amen. Amen. I want to dive into that tomorrow.
How to, I want to, I want to dive into the theology of Mormonism and then consequently how to approach a Mormon. Maybe we can kind of take a look at that tomorrow, but Dr. Shah, Victoria, thank you so much for being here. This was an incredible.
Yes. Thank you. So helpful for us to think about.
I love, I love what you said, Victoria, like this is happening next door. We need to be aware of this. That's the whole heart behind the show that we be engaging people's hearts and minds for the sake of the gospel. That's the gospel for you as our listeners, but also the gospel for those who are in your context. And here's how you can share the gospel with them by sharing the message of the Clear Read Today show.
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