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Now let's get into the show. You've just started digging deeper into the Bible. You've committed yourselves. You're getting lots of different translations, but uh-oh, some of those translations say different things.
Some of them don't matter that much.
Some of them seem to be very, very different. Understanding how to approach this is coming up right now on the Theory Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
I'm John Galantis. Welcome back to the Clearview Today studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time today, we want to welcome you to the show, let you know exactly who's talking to you today. Dr.
Abadan Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, we're back once again. Yes, we are. We finished one interview a little while ago with one of our guests at our apologetics conference here at Clearview, and now we have another guest.
That's right, that's right. That's the good thing about recording in bulk. We can do this all day, baby. But every day, there's a new video for you. Pastor Dwayne Green, welcome.
Thank you. Thank you. This is a it's an honor. Thank you. Amen.
Yeah. Coming down here was such a it's cold up north and down here. Like I should have brought some shorts.
So I won. I was like, the Hawaiian shirt is very appropriate because it just, just last week it was super cold. It was. They say North Carolina is really bipolar and it's in its use with the weather because it will be frigid cold one week and then very next week it's like so true.
Now we were praying for a good weather this weekend and thank God we got some good weather. Amen. It's good to have you here with us today. For those who do not know, I'm sure you've heard me talk about him here and there. This is Pastor Dwayne Green, all the way from Ontario, Canada.
He's a pastor of the Pentecostal Country Church. We do have a pastor who comes here who's a pastor of a cowboy church. That's right. Cowboy church. That is true.
How many cowboy churches in Canada? No, I don't think there's any. Have you ever heard of a cowboy church? I have, I have not. Yeah, there is a very, I remember one time when I just got married to my wife's steph, and we were watching like late night TV.
We couldn't sleep for whatever reason. The TV was on at like two in the morning, and there was this random thing. I think this was a Christian channel. I don't know what it was back then, Daystar or TBN or something. I don't know.
But this guy comes on dressed in like a cowboy hat and he starts singing, You got to know when to hold them. Know when to fold them. And he's like, I'm the Jamaican cowboy man. I was like, What is this? What is this?
I'm just instant question marks. Jamaican cowboy is not a strangest thing I've ever seen on late night TV. Just go to bed earlier. Twilight zone. I just need to go to bed earlier.
Sometimes those 2 a.m. things that come across your TV, you're like, this is why I should be asleep. I remember waking up just like at three in the morning, those like CD infomercials where they're. Just play in the oldies with the goodies, and you can buy the CDs. I remember those being like, man, I need to stop falling asleep with the TV on.
Well, Dr. Shaw, tell our listeners how we got connected to Pastor Dwayne Green.
So, sort of similar to Dr. Ward last. Show, Maurice Robinson. You know, we usually text starting at like 9:30, 10 o'clock at night when our texting will begin. Or he'll text me about a variant or something he read or something funny he found.
He had mentioned to me, I don't know if it was that night or in the morning or somewhere about you. And he said, you need to check out his work. He makes some really good videos on the Byzantine text type and he's very knowledgeable. I've seen, I've joined your show live a couple of times. I think it's on a Wednesday night, is it not?
Or is it a different time?
Well, it depends, right? I'm not as consistent as I probably should be. But I mean, even now, I haven't released a video in a little while. But typically, I try to get a live stream out once a week. Wednesday nights don't work anymore.
So typically it's I've been doing Tuesday nights. But yeah, so just a live stream. And we come on and people ask a question like, you know, what my Bible verse has, there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father. The spirit and the word, and yet this Bible doesn't have it.
So, why? And so, I, you know, take the opportunity to answer the question. Yeah. This is why.
So, and you do a great job in interacting with people, you know, being as considerate as you can because some can get a little crazy at times, and you know how to stop.
Sound like YouTube comments with the band hammer. Yeah, have you kicked people from your stream? I actually have. I had to kick one person, and I think I had to actually delete one comment. Yeah, so in like last six years, deleting one person.
That's pretty good. It's not bad, yeah. But I do have a high tolerance, though. Yeah, so I can handle it. I can handle it.
That broad shoulders. You're laughing, you keep going. That's what I've noticed. You just laugh and like, okay, all right. People don't realize, right, when they come on and they start grifting on a channel.
Yeah, is that actually helps you because you increase engagement and it's it's like they're helping you advertise, so even though they don't like what you're saying, their interaction with you actually bolsters you a little. More. There's things where it's kind of welcome. Yeah, I've seen that as well. Where not only do they argue with you, they get to argue with people in the comments.
So, two comments turn into four, turn into eight, turn into 16, and now all of a sudden you've got like 20,000 people.
Now, that post is blown up. Yeah, and YouTube is like, oh, this must be good. I'm going to push this.
So, Dr. Shah, Pastor Dwayne, there's people who are listening to this right now who may have gotten saved last week. There are people who are listening who may have been saved 50 years, but have never heard of textual criticism. I don't know what this is. In the most broad terms, because it's a radio show, so we always assume there's brand new people listening every day.
Could you just tell us what text criticism is? Maybe, Dr. Shah, you explain what it is. And Pastor Dwayne, maybe you can kind of just explain how you've been furthering your career in text criticism as well.
So, for me, textual criticism began in 1996 when I was taking New Testament Greek with Maurice Robinson. And so, I walked in the class to take, you know, I'm in master's level and I'm like intimidated, scared, just, you know, one of memory. And stay on top of my Greek because I don't want it to get out of control. You know, people would tell me all kinds of things about learning languages.
So I was so focused on that. And then Doctor Robinson would get off on tangents. And he would talk about the Byzantine text and and then he would talk about You know, the Codex Vaticanus and the Reason Eclectics. And I'm like, what are we talking about? Because I had zero idea.
Zero. And so then he would throw names in there in between. And, you know, Wallace said that in the article, and I just don't understand. How can he say that? I'm like, who is Wallace and what is he saying?
And where is he?
So I was like, I am, I don't know. I'm going to stick to Greek here, memorizing these words. And then more and more I heard, I was like, oh, we're talking about. the text, the Greek text of the Bible. But apparently there's there's more happening there.
So that's when I began to research and I asked him, I said, Can you suggest some books for me? and he said, Yeah, read Metzger's Text of the New Testament, and then read Allen's text of the New Testament, and then Pickering's work. I mean, he said, just start reading, dive into these things. And be honest, when I first began, I didn't understand. And then more and more I got into it because it's intimidating.
This field is intimidating. There's a lot. You know, there's a variants.
So. We don't have the original autographs, right? Whatever Paul or Matthew or Mark or John wrote on, those are gone. What we have are copies of copies or copies, copies, you know? And so, and there are differences in the copies.
What do we do then? Yeah. Have we lost the original text forever? Or is there a science behind it? That helps us get back to it.
Is really in danger. That's what we're talking about when we say textual. Kind of giving a. Maybe a little more technical understanding. Yeah, yeah, and just a second, that's essentially what it is.
Like, I can give you this illustration. It works out really well because before I was a pastor, I worked as a software developer. And email is like the big way, especially in a corporation. Like, if you work in a corporate setting, like emails, like everybody hates emails, nobody wants the emails. It's like Friday at 4:30, and someone sends an email.
So, yeah, I want to see anyway.
So, I had this discussion back and forth with someone on a database team, and his name was Chris. And for whatever reason, I just cannot type Chris without putting the T on the end of it because I'm just so used to typing Christ out because that's that's like my focus in life, right? And so, why I bring that up is because oftentimes when a scribe is copying a manuscript, if they've got a funny thing like that going on, you know, they can accidentally put something in a text that you know.
So, if something was meant for Chris and he writes Chris, but he puts Christ in there.
Well, then we got a textual variant, yeah, and we've got to sort out how that how that reading came about, and that's that's all textual criticism is deciding which reading should be.
So, if we take an example, and I use this one because I'm going to talk about it this weekend, but the discussion surrounding the deliverance, and the disciples come to Jesus and they're like, Hey, you know, this guy, we tried to deliver, we tried deliverance, and we couldn't get the demon to come out. And Christ's response was. This kind doesn't come out except through prayer and fasting. That's right. Some Bibles don't have and fasting on the end of it.
This is Mark 9:29. And some Bibles have it. Right, so how do you decide? How do you decide whether the inclusion of that is God's word or whether the omission of that is God's word? And that's what textual criticism attempts to.
Yeah. That's what textual criticism tries to figure out. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
So that's that's that's essentially what text criticism is. That's in a nutshell. I think that's so helpful for people who hear a term like textual criticism. They're like, that is way beyond. Like, I do, I cannot swim in that water.
That is way beyond my pay grade. But I think, you know, hearing your heart, Dr. Sean, your heart, Pastor Dwayne, about, you know, this is how we understand the text behind your English Bible. This is how we understand how what you hold as the Bible got to your hands. Because so many people don't think beyond that.
They don't think beyond how did I get this Bible in my hands? Where did this come from? Right.
And I think helping them answer those questions or even know that there's a world out there that studies that is so helpful for people. Yeah, I think a lot of people think that like the different translations were all just translating from one thing. You know what I'm saying? Like I've got the Holman, I've got or the CSB now, I've got the ESV, the NIV, the New King James. But they're all just different translations of this one thing.
And I think a lot of us, myself included until recently, don't realize that there's Many different types of these texts or whatever that were coming from. And so, which one do you choose? And I love the way that you put that. It's like, well, how do we decide which one's the word of God and which one's not? And I know this is like a question that could keep us talking for hours, but genuinely, how do you decide?
You know, what is the methodology that you would go to to say, all right, I want to figure out which one of these is real? I want Pastor Duane to answer that. One thing I want to clarify is there are two issues going on when we bring up different English versions. One is the issue of the text behind those versions, like KJV, NKJV versus NIV, ESV, CSV, and all. The different text, Greek text behind there versus translations where, oh, I like this translation better, or this reads so much, you know, like everyday English.
Those are two different things we're talking about. I think your question, of course, is about the text. Issue behind it.
So, so There's a science, and yeah. Pastor Duane, I mean, how would you? How would you go about it? It's a big fixed idea.
So. Okay. I don't get too technical because, right?
So, what we'll do is we simplify this. And so, it's really important to understand that what I'm saying here is a simplification. Because if we were to get into the weeds, we would be here for hours and hours and hours. In fact, if you want to go into the weeds, you can go to my channel and catch one of my two and a half-hour live streams. And they are two and a half hours.
Some of them are really cool. I think one of my records was like three hours, but I not to go that long. But that just, anyway, so I hold to something called Byzantine priority. And so, essentially, what that means is that there's you can, again, greatly simplified, but you can kind of break down the discussion of the original text into two ways. One is we prefer the older manuscripts, even though there's fewer.
There's, you know, they're much older. Or the other option is to kind of go with more of a majority text.
Now, it's important to recognize there is a distinction between majority and Byzantine. It's more in method than it is in final text. Right.
That's all I'll say there.
So, for me, I prefer to go the route of. Of more.
Now, again, there are some things behind that.
So if you have your English Bible, for example, the New King James Version is great because it's got those footnotes in the bottom.
So they have the references, cross-references, and then they have textual notes. And you'll see an M down there, and the M means majority. And so when you see a separate reading with the M beside it, it just means that a majority of the manuscripts have that reading instead of the other one. And I think that's great. And that's why I use the New King James Version.
Now, Thomas Nelson isn't paying me anything. I'm not very good at paying. I was going to say we may change that if this episode goes well. Yeah, there you go.
So, so that's again, kind of the approach in a nutshell. You would, again, if you go back to my channel, you'll see I do a deep dive into a number of specific variants. But ultimately, what Byzantine priority is, is it takes a grouping of manuscripts. It's very large. We're talking about.
90%. Of all of the manuscripts have kind of the same shape, and we call that the Byzantine text. And so, for me personally, when I do my textual dives, I have a presupposition that basically says that the Byzantine text is the more the closest to the original.
So, that's typically how I deal with the textual question. Do you think it's fair to say, Dr. Shah, that based on what Pastor Duane is saying, that the root of the argument is whether or not we think that it's closer to the original because these manuscripts are so much older, therefore, they probably reflect the original better? Or we have so much, so many more of these ones that these are probably the closest. That is the essence of the discussion.
That's where you have, to get a more technical term, the reason-eclectic approach, which is behind the critical texts like the Nestle-Allen text, the UBS text, which is identical, or. The Byzantine texts like, say, Robinson Pierpont. I would even say the Hodges and Farstad majority text. You know, there are differences there, but again, it's more about method, not really the final outcome that's there.
So that's basically what we're talking about.
So then the question comes: well, what are your assumptions? What do you believe could have happened to these few early manuscripts that we have found?
So you study about them, external evidence of those manuscripts, and then you study the groupings of the older manuscripts, the later manuscripts to see which one. Would be more likely.
So, that is those that's the tension between reason eclecticism on one side and Byzantine priority on the other side. Maybe both of you guys can kind of weigh on this because, Dr. I know your dissertation was focused on this specifically, but have you heard people tell you that going back to the original text that we shouldn't even bother? That's not possible. Let's just give that up.
I mean, I know that's something you've contended with. Yeah, I mean, that's the hot topic. I would say that was the hot topic. 20 years ago, and it still is, because now there's a new methodology, the methodology called CBGM. It has been for a while, but it's really now considered to be the standard.
And that's where can we get back to the original text? And it's there are people who will say, we're not sure. We can get back to a stage. And I disagree with that. I think.
But you know, you can. You do have the original text.
So yeah, the hot take, right, is I don't think that modern eclecticism, how it works today, I don't think that it would work in getting back to the original text. Byzantine priority, on the other hand, see, the big distinction, I think, and I'm going to talk about it tomorrow, is In modern eclecticism, right, or reasoned eclectic, this is what's behind most of our modern English Bible translations. There's a lot of subjectivity that goes into making the decision. As a Byzantine prioritist, There's still some subjectivity. I don't think you can get away from it entirely, but it's greatly reduced.
Like if you take, for example, your English Bible translation.
So if I say something's a dynamic translation, right? Most of us will know what that means, right? It's more paraphrastic. It's not really entirely literal. But then you can have a literal Bible translation.
But the secret about literal Bible translations that not many people talk about is that there is still interpretation involved. And there still is a level of subjectivity, right? For the nerds out there, right? What do you do with the genitive case?
Okay, we'll just, I'll just put that out there.
Okay, what do you do with that? You have to make interpretive decisions.
So I don't think the process of textual criticism necessarily can remove all of the subjectivity, but you can reduce it significantly.
So that's why I say I don't think modern eclecticism or reasoned eclecticism can get us there, but Byzantine priority can. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the why? You know, because as a pastor, You're both pastors.
And if you come out onto the pulpit, and Dr. I think you did this brilliantly just last week. If you come out onto the pulpit and you say, hey, guys, listen, I know that we, yes, the word is inerrant. Yes, the word is inspired by God. It is God-breathed.
But in these manuscripts, there are differences. And some of them are significant differences. You might have Christians who are like, Huh? What? Really?
Talk a little bit about the why that we do this. Let's take a quick break. Guys, John here from Clearview Today. Before we jump in, quick shout out to today's sponsor, Mighty Muscadine. If you've been looking for a natural way to support your health, these guys are doing it right.
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And every time you use that code, code, you are directly helping us here at the Clearview Today Show continue spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So thank you for that. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring this episode. Let's jump in. Because we want people not just to be hearers of the words, but be doers of the word. And if they're going to be doers of the word, then we need to know what the word is about.
What is the word saying? Interpretation is going to come down the road, but at least the text of Scripture, what is the text? Hence, this discipline. As I mentioned in the previous interview we had, sometimes. When I'm addressing those issues, I have to pray and make sure that in no way do I.
You know. uh dishevel somebody's In a trust in the Word of God. I don't want to say anything that they will go, oh my goodness, my Bible has a lot of mistakes.
So I have to be careful how I say that.
So I begin with, hey, listen. You hold in your hand the Word of God. I don't care what version you have, you have in your hand the Word of God. Don't let anybody tell you that. But there's a science behind it.
Let me explain to you why there are differences in reading. And then I begin to say, you know, these manuscripts say this, but this one makes a better case for that. And so I gently explain to them, not just pushing them into the deep and there's always the Bart Ehrman type. You know, information out there that seems like, oh, yeah, we don't have the word of God. How do you know there's a word of God?
How can you have the inspired word when you don't even have the word? You know, stuff like that.
So I have to be careful how I explain to them.
So I slowly, gently help them understand. Yeah. This is why there are differences that are there. And, and, and, People appreciate it. We're not hiding it.
Yeah. Yeah. We're not hiding that information. And I'll share this story because this is an interesting story.
So when I was in high school, I had just baby Christian, right? Right.
And I had a Jehovah's Witness friend in high school. And I remember we'd have these theological discussions.
So you guys have heard of like cage stage Calvinists? No, never. No, never. Really? You've never heard of the?
Give me the TLDR.
Okay, so I don't mean to bring Calvinism. I'm not a Calvinist.
Some people like it. The keyboard's ready. I know. They're ready. They're ready.
What you better say, Dwayne? But there's this, like, when somebody becomes a Calvinist for the first time and they hear the doctrines of grace, right? They get really excited and they start like really getting angry and getting frustrated with people who are Calvinists. And so a cage-stage Calvinist is like, you got to put them in a cage for a period of time until they bounce them down. That is.
So anyway, I was a new Christian. Probably should have been a cage stage Christian because I wanted to go to theological battle with this guy and be like, you know. Know what? Jesus is God because Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus. Right, right.
And the Trinity is a thing. And so I remember one day I went to him and I said, Look, 1 John 5:7, there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Spirit, and the Word. These three are one. And you know what he did? He did, my friend Brandon, he took my Bible and pointed to the little note at the bottom and said, No man, or I forget what the note said.
It's just these few, few, few, if any manuscripts have this passage or something like that. And I remember walking away from that conversation being like, What just going on here? Right.
So the practicality of textual criticism is you don't want that to happen because even though it's true, even though that statement is true. It's not necessarily. God's word.
Now, there's a whole big, a whole big discussion on 1 John 5:7. But you don't want to misattribute authority to something that doesn't have that authority that it has. Then you run into a situation like that. And so it takes away your credibility.
So it's important to be able to not only identify, like when somebody comes up to you and says, hey, what's this different? But then to be able to provide an answer. That's right. That's right. And feel and don't feel like you're a heretic because you're saying, no, that is not in the scripture.
You're justified for making that claim. And both of you guys are presenting your papers on exactly what we're talking about, the Byzantine text form at the conference that we're doing tomorrow. And if anybody out there is listening and you want to hear Pastor Dwayne and Dr. Shah speak deeper on this topic, too bad. I told y'all to get y'all's tickets for three solid months.
If you're not here, but here's what I want to say. Yeah, y'all have goofed up. But here's what I do want to ask you guys as we're wrapping up the show. If someone's listening to this, and let's say they're a new Christian or they're diving in. Deeper.
They've been a Christian for a while.
Now I'm making this commitment. I want to get deeper in my Bible. And I have seen these differences between the different versions or the different types of texts, and it's discouraging me. What do you say to that person? I would say to them: don't be discouraged.
Just know that we're aware of it. There's nothing that we're hiding. You know, sometimes people go, has the church been kind of, you know, sweeping these things under the rug? No. There are scholars, there are people, just like Pastor Duane on his channel, YouTube channel, has been discussing these things.
We're not hiding anything.
So, yes, and we discuss and we arrive at educated conclusions based on our understanding, our study, like this conference. We have three people coming from a Byzantine perspective, but then we also have three people coming from a critical text perspective: Dr. Ward, Dr. Elijah Hickson, Dr. Black.
They're not Byzantine priority. I mean, you know, they maybe have. Have a soft side for it, but they're not. They're critical text people. But we welcome them and take their critiques and discuss back and forth.
So there's nothing to hide here and no shame in that. And the word of God stands. That's right. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the other thing is you go back into the history of the church and from its inception until today, textual criticism has always been done.
Yes. Always. You can find in the writings of Jerome where he's talking about so-and-so's copy of the gospel and how they have these words here and how it should be this word. Or you can take a look at Irenaeus, who's saying, you know, some people have 616 as the mark of the beast, but it's really 666.
So it's always been like the church has always known about it. And then the other thing that I think you might find helpful is I did a video series a number of years ago. And again, it's all free on YouTube. I'm not making any money off this. And I went through and I cataloged every variant from the Texas Receptus and the Byzantine text, and I went through each one of those to see what kind of difference it makes to the meaning of the text.
And I can tell you from the book of Matthew, it's essentially null. Like there's, I think there's six where it impacts translation, but doesn't really change the meaning of the text.
So, yeah, I think there's like 20 hours worth of videos on that.
So, broken down into smaller manageable sites. But yeah, that was, I just wanted to see what the differences were between the TR and the Byzantine text. And it's quite surprising how close they are.
So, yeah, no critical doctrine, whether it's incarnation, trinity, whatever, is like, oh my goodness, we believe not. But Johannium is not there. We cannot believe the Trinity. That's not true. We're okay.
It's so helpful to hear that and to hear your heart, both you, Pastor Dwayne, and you, Dr. Shah, to hear your heart to equip people. I know we're out of time, but I really want to ask this question as we close. People who are listening, and maybe they're This has sparked a desire for them to study textual criticism more closely. Maybe they're like, hey, this is a field that I didn't even know existed before now, but this, maybe this is where God's calling.
Maybe I feel a desire to study this more. What is one thing, if you could summarize it into a bite-sized thought, what is one thing that you love the most about your journey through textual criticism? Maybe something that stands out as a memory of something that you've studied or something, a scholar you've been able to interact with. What's one thing that you're like, hey, I'm really glad I did textual criticism because of this? Pass it away.
Oh, that's a hard one. Because it's just so many. I think. Part of the pinnacle of it so far has been the invitation to come and speak at the conference. I mean, this is a very big deal for me, and it's just a moment where to be able to shake the hands of the men who have influenced my own textual position.
Wonderful, wonderful thing.
So, yeah, that's why I'm here in person. That's right. That's why I'm here in person. Yeah, it took me all day to get here yesterday, so I did manage.
So, it was so that's definitely a highlight. But, I mean, it goes without saying, but what we want is the Word of God. And the fact that I have a certainty about certain passages now, it just brings a peace. That's right. I would say the same.
Going to conferences like this, educating yourself, watching the New Testament textual criticism with Dwayne Green, you know, things like this. Educate yourself, watch this show and learn. Each time you learn, you get more confident to kind of wade into that water and know that we have the Word of God. That's right. Amen.
So good.
So encouraging. Pastor Duane, thank you so much for being on the show today. What a wonderful episode. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show.
Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show, anywhere podcasting content can be found. And you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. That's right. We want to direct you guys to our brand new show, How to Read Biblical Hebrew with Dr.
Abadan Shah. It's a weekly podcast, video podcast on iTunes. We want to encourage you guys to go and download it. It's 100% free, and it is a college-level Hebrew course. We're going to start at the very beginning with the alphabet.
We're going to go through grammar, syntax, all of the great things to have you reading the Old Testament in its original language by the end of a single semester. And depending on how well you do with the videos, it could be even sooner. But that's our guarantee to you.
So make sure you check it out. Link is in the description below. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear Read Today.
