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Start your free trial today. The administration's concerns are not frivolous. Anthropic appears to have made real mistakes. A Washington Post report suggested that it expanded access to Mythos beyond what officials believed had been approved and moved too slowly in responding to concerns about who was being allowed to use it. Intelligence agencies reportedly favored a tougher approach.
But that is precisely why process matters. When a technology becomes this consequential, decisions cannot be made ad hoc by whatever faction wins a weekend bureaucratic battle, which might then get reversed the next weekend.
So that is Frid Zakaria talking about what Anthropic's doing is one of the major AI companies that's killing in a good way on the stock market. But people are getting worried that some of these guys are going to combine and also that some of these evolutions are getting smarter than man, like Mythos. Is smarter and can think on its own, and is scaring a lot of people, including possibly my next guest, Nate Sorrows is president of the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, and they are a researcher and best-selling author of the book, If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies. Nate, are you worried about where we're heading right now when it comes to AI in these companies? You know, I don't think my book title made it very subtle.
Uh we're not to the dangerous stuff yet, but we're definitely on a dangerous track. Why do you say so? You know, these AI companies did not set out to make chatbots. Chatbots are a stepping stone along the way. If you talk to these guys or if you read what they say, they say we're trying to make super intelligence.
We're trying to make machines that exceed humans in every capacity. Right now, Anthropic has figured out how to make super hacker AIs, and that has sort of woken the national security community up to what this technology can do. But this is not the end of the line. This is, in some sense, just the first step.
So they were just trying what if they say, hey, I'm just trying to develop things the best we can, and this is the next step. Do you think they have intentions? of uh of bad intentions, or are they just trying to get the best product possible? I think they often have good intentions, but if you listen to these guys, they say this technology can be very dangerous, and the reason why I need to race to do it is that if I don't, the next guy will race and I'm better than the next guy. And a lot of these companies were founded when a team in one company left because they didn't trust the CEO and then they formed another company.
And this happened a couple of times.
So they don't really trust each other with this tech. They're worried about where this tech is going. And I think the rest of the world is just starting to notice that this tech can have some real power and that we're going to need to be careful. Here is more from Vareed Zakari on what the problem was with Anthropic. As you know, they lost their contract with the Pentagon.
Now they're trying to get it back. Cut forty-six. The U.S. government did something extraordinary. It effectively forced one of America's leading artificial intelligence companies to withdraw its most advanced product from the market.
Anthropic, the maker of the frontier AI model Mythos and its commercially available cousin Fable, have been given little warning and according to reports roughly 90 minutes to comply. The fight between Washington and Anthropic is not really about one company. It is the first visible battle over who governs artificial intelligence and whether that governance will happen through rules and institutions or improvisation and raw power. That's where we're at right now.
So your thought, Nate Sorris, about that? what he just said about what where Anthropic was and what they did. Yeah, you know, I think uh that The White House has had factions that think AI can get seriously dangerous and factions that think it never will. And I think Claude Mythos sort of showed that, at least on hacking, these AIs can get pretty dangerous. And that was a bit of a wake-up call.
I also think another big wake-up call here, I believe the way things went down, is that someone from Amazon reported that the commercially available Fable could be jailbroken to have some of the capabilities of Mythos. And Anthropic is not able to stop that. The people making these AIs are not designing their AIs like old school computer programs. They're sort of growing these things, and they have certain capabilities, and they can sort of ask the AI not to display those capabilities. But it's true that people can jailbreak and get past those guardrails, and that these AI companies don't have a good answer to it.
And so, you know, I think the national security community is responding by sort of saying, What the heck? No, you're not allowed to have that be a consumer product. If bad guys figure out how to jailbreak this, they can bring down the entire Internet. That's a valid concern. And the fact that that's a valid concern shows what sort of crazy territory we're entering.
How would you describe mythos for people at home who aren't experts like you, Nate? Time. I don't know the exact numbers, but my guess is that in January of this year, there were roughly two entities that could make a website, where if you just look at the website, they can take over your entire phone or computer. and those two entities were Mossad and the NSA. In March there were three entities.
Massade, the NSA and Claude Mythos. Yeah. For over two decades, the Tunnel to Towers Foundation has been there for our fallen and catastrophically injured first responders, military, and Gold Star families. Born from the tragedy of 9-11, Tunnel to Towers provides mortgage-free homes to Gold Star and fallen first responder families with young children and builds specifically adapted smart homes for catastrophically injured veterans and first responders. The Foundation also offers scholarships for college and trade school programs for the children of Gold Star families, fallen first responders, and catastrophically injured veterans.
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So We're okay if we have that ability and we're the intelligence, but if everyone has that ability, And if China has that ability and Iran has that ability, This is the world's going to get pretty out of control. That's sure how it looks. And I think Anthropic did a pretty good thing when they said we're going to release this to the good guys first, and we're going to release this to people who can find the flaws in our software and our critical infrastructure and try to fix them. And they're like, we're going to try and fix all these issues before all these other people could access to a similarly capable model. Because other people are trying to build AIs that are similarly capable.
But also, I think they're definitely being somewhat reckless in creating these tools in the first place. And frankly, like I said earlier, the super hacking abilities are just the beginning. Right? What happens when we have AIs with super biotech capabilities? what happens when we have AIs that are superhuman at Doing AI research, and then we have AIs that make smarter AIs that make smarter AIs.
This is just the beginning of the train. But we're not on the train alone.
So, if we're doing this, do we have any idea what China's doing? It's absolutely a concern. And in my book, we talk about how any solution to this needs to be global. If the US stops and other people continue, that's not a real solution. I think there's a number of reasons why we probably could stop this with China that range from right now, China is sort of cheating off of our homework on AI in a lot of ways.
So, trying to outrun them is a little bit like trying to outrun our own shadow, because they're just sort of you know, they make capable models, but they make it by a process called distillation on American models. And then, separately, you know, we absolutely need some supply chain controls. The dangerous part of AI, the AIs that can really do a lot of damage are not today's AIs, they're ones that don't exist yet. And trending the next generation of AIs takes 10,000 of the most highly advanced computer chips assembled in an enormous data center that sucks down as much electricity as a city and that you can see from space. That's the sort of thing that we could do arms control on.
That's the sort of thing that we could do something like a nuclear control treaty on and where we could enforce both by diplomacy and by sabotage if necessary. We could enforce that on China if the administration realizes just how dangerous this technology could get. But, Nate, what do you think the how do you convince our adversaries, our allies? to work with us. What would make you think that they would cooperate and say, listen, this is powerful.
Let's try to set up some regulations together? What makes you think that would be the motivation for them to ever collaborate with us? Two. The first step is realizing how dangerous the technology is. And the example of the White House slapping on these export controls is actually a good example of how these things can change fast.
A few months ago, the White House was saying there should never be any AI regulations. They were saying we're just going to let this industry rip. We don't want to curtail the good parts of this technology. And then Cloud Mythos happened, and the national security community sort of realized that the super hackers are really possible. And they said, hold on, there's actually a tech here we need to not let get out of control.
And then the administration, I think rightly, Did this about face. I think rightly they said, hey, actually, you, you. Like, we're going to need to do something about this. And we can talk about how it would be better if it wasn't sort of a slap-dash regulation and if we had something in place where it wouldn't be as much of a surprise. But I think the national security community realized, like, oh, we actually really need to do something.
And then everything moved fast. If the rest of the world realizes how dangerous this technology can get, I think it can become a lot like uh like nuclear uh power and nuclear weapons, where We sort of shouldn't regulate the nuclear power maybe as much because we want to make sure we can get access to the energy, but at the same time, we can all realize no one wants a thermonuclear exchange. And so you can have arms strategies that say, hey, we're not going to build the nuclear weapon stockpiles. Globally, we're going to try globally to avoid nuclear armed in World War III, even if we still let the nuclear energy power plants be built. With AI, it should be the same way: we can keep going with all of this technology that's going to be the good parts.
We can't keep racing towards out-of-control superintelligence that would kill everybody, no matter who builds it. Nate Soros, it's scary stuff, but really important stuff. There's nothing more important, you could argue. Nate Soros, president of the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, and the best-selling author of If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies. Nate, thanks so much.
Appreciate it. Gonna have trouble sleeping tonight, but it's all good. It's important we know it. I hope I'm wrong. Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
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