You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian worldview. Today we're going to talk about Trump's suggestion of sending the National Guard into some of our most crime-ridden cities. We're going to talk about pushback and changing minds in the transgender debate. and some strange comments from Senator Tim Kaine. I am happy to report that we have a lot to get to this week.
So please stick around. Welcome to Breakpoint this week. From the Colson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer. alongside John Stone Street, president of the Coulson Center. John, the first news item I wanted to hit with you today is this new push by the Trump administration to send the National Guard.
Into some U.S. cities.
Now they've done it in Washington, D.C., and the early reports are that crime rates have dramatically declined. The law is a little bit different about sending them to any other U.S. city, which are under the authority of the states that they're in, but he has. floated the idea of sending National Guard to Chicago and now to New Orleans as well. My question to you is: the argument behind this seems to be related to something I understand as the broken windows theory.
I think this was a Rudy Giuliani special. Which is the idea that when you allow smaller crimes to go unprosecuted, You encourage more criminal activity generally. That seems to me to be a worldview question. Is that the case? And is that what's prompting?
Kind of the increase in criminal activity in some of our big cities.
Well, yes, it is an interesting theory and it has some merit, particularly in what was seen in New York City, I think, in the 90s, I think is primarily where that came from. It's like you make people have a sense of ownership of their own city, of their own space. I think that is a fascinating way of applying a A vision of what it means to be human and our calling primarily being to take care of things. I remember, you know, when I. Used to talk to young men about what it means to be a young man from a biblical worldview.
I would often just say, look, it's a real simple question. Are you leaving things better than you found them? And when things decline and when things decay and when things break down and you live in that day after day after day. then it gives you the A, since you're the victim and you don't have any sort of meaningful action and you look to someone else to solve the problem. Or you kind of say there's nothing we can do about it when, in fact, there's a whole lot of things you can do about it.
The problem here is two things. One is a more political question, which has to do with the extent of. The president's constitutional authority to do these sorts of things. And that's a real live debate that's happening. I tend to think that he does have that sort of right.
within certain guidelines, and you can't just willy-nilly throw it into places where you want for ulterior motives. And vetting that through is going to be really, really difficult. I think that, for example, this is a way that the federal government steps into states, and the conservative view on a political level. Is to say, listen, we want to keep states' rights intact, and this is definitely a something that's gonna challenge that. The other question though is just simply this inevitability idea that I learned from Chuck Coulson.
Which is if you don't govern yourself. you get governed. The crime stats in a lot of these cities are actually way better than they used to be. I mean, the nineties in DC was terrible. I know this.
I grew up an hour from there and we'd go visit and you'd hear about it and you'd we'd get the news coming out of it. And And so on. But that doesn't mean. That it's where it needs to be, right? And it doesn't need it it doesn't m mean that we can't dramatically reduce crime and his actions in DC, which by the way is a different conversation constitutionally.
And we're not a political podcast in the States, right? He has a a level of authority there. But it's the conscience or the constable. And I've been thinking about this: are we going to be able, for example, to maintain Second Amendment rights if we can't get a handle? Uh gun violence.
The answer is ultimately. No. No, I'm a Second Amendment guy. I own guns. But but there is a math thing that happens.
in a society where either you govern yourself or you lose freedoms. Either you're able to say no. To bad behavior in order to think about others and to build a civilization, or you cannot. And that's not a policy question. That's just the inevitable reality within a cultural setting, if that makes sense.
And I think. That there's something about that that helps me. think about this decision. Yeah.
Well, let's turn to another story. There's been an ongoing saga happening in the UK. Where a comedian has now been arrested for comments he made on Twitter.
Some maybe off-color jokes, but these were about the transgenderism debate. And he was actually arrested and is facing charges in a criminal court. Or, I don't know what the equivalent of a criminal court is in the UK, but he is facing some sort of legal charges. We haven't seen this kind of thing yet in the U.S. Is it coming our way?
Well, you know, what's crazy is this guy was living in the U.S. I mean, he's a British citizen, but he was living in the U.S. and then went across and got. Arrested. The other thing is, you know, when armed police officers show up in the United States, yeah, I owe this thought to Tim Padgett.
He pointed out that, you know, to talk about armed police in the UK is actually notable. Every police officer is armed in the US, but not in the UK. And five of them. Showed up. Uh look uh There's so many examples of the suppression of speech, of the suppression of free speech in the UK.
That it kind of is an example of what we were saying before. I mean, freedoms aren't guaranteed. And this is actually going to be. An interesting thing to consider in light of the conversation we're going to have in the next segment about. Tim Kaine's comments this week about where our rights come from.
and where the government's job is to invent them. and to enforce them or or or or This comedian wrote a little bit about his experience of being arrested, and he mentioned a few times that the police actually involved, armed or not, were like pretty kind and seemed kind of baffled by the whole thing themselves, which almost makes me angrier because it's sometimes I think it's at that level that things are going to have to turn around. Like people are, people just need to refuse to do that kind of thing. But that's easier said than done. I'm aware of that.
It is easier said than done, but that's a really, that's a really interesting thing. Like that makes you think it's a personal vendetta. I want to say, did you see how he showed up in court? No. Or showed up to court.
What did he do? With Billboard Chris's Billboard. I did see that. And I just want to say. Like I've had the opportunity to meet Chris Elston one time.
I don't know him. And he's an interesting guy. But when this whole journey is written about the individuals who are willing to stand up and say what's true. About the trans movement. uh his name needs to be front first and foremost.
I mean He was doing it before it was cool. He was willing to go out into the street and do it. He's been willing to take punches, literally. And at rest, like this, like what happened, I think what happened to him in Belgium, I think, and in Australia, and I'm sure more places than that.
Now he's inspired this guy to do. And it looked like his billboard. Did you see it? It looked like Billboard Chris's billboard.
So. Anyway. Speaking of John, did you see Malcolm Gladwell's comments this week? He, as many people will know, influential podcast host, brilliant writer. I've loved his books.
But he's also a runner. He's a competitive runner. He's run the Boston Marathon a handful of times. And he. Was on a panel somewhere during the pandemic and really was aggressively pushing back against people saying that men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports and talking about trans inclusion and whatnot.
This week he was in some interview and I just heard the comments of him saying that he regrets what he said on that panel. But he was also defensive, saying he was cowed into it, that there was really no option to not go along with that line at that time. But now he's saying if he returned to that same panel, he believes it would be unanimous in the other direction, that of course men should not play in women's sports. What was your reaction to that about face?
Well, it was a fascinating thing. Because, first of all, he's the best podcaster on the planet. Like, no one has paralleled his ability to do that. He really is. He's as good as he gets, and he's always a super interesting.
thinker and always willing to look at things, I think honestly. I don't always agree with his takes. I certainly didn't agree with that take. But it did seem out of the ordinary when he said it, right? I mean, it didn't seem like his arguments were so kind of canned and kind of just, it seemed like they weren't really arguments, they were just assertions and things like that.
And he's usually willing to look at the evidence and ask the right questions. And this was a case where he just. went along with it.
So now he has reversed course. We're going to have a lot of this. You were one of the first to point out, like. We're going to have to figure out what to do with all these people who then get on board and say, oh, I never really said that.
Now, he didn't. He said, I did say that, and I was wrong. And I think we're also going to have to figure out what to do with people who Repit on this. Publicly, as public figures, or especially as believers. And Gladwell is, I think, somewhat religious, but I don't know that he.
Would be call himself a Christian in any Jewish way. Oh, Jewish. There we go.
Okay. You know, there was a real debate that happened coming out of the first wave of persecution in the Christian church, where even some bishops, in order to protect themselves or sometimes to protect other Christians. renounce their faith. or accepted the Roman gods in order to avoid persecution. And when they did that, then when the persecution waned.
They There was a real decision in the church. What do you do with these folks? And what if they repent? And what if they don't? And does repentance restore them, particularly in the case of a priest or a bishop?
To a position of leadership. I feel like we're going to have that conversation again. going to be on a cultural level. It's going to be Also with, you know, Christians. Come back around on this.
You know, this is a different. conversation because we're dealing with public figure. But we are going to have to figure that out, aren't we? The variables really matter here to me. First of all, his job, he positions himself like what he trades in is his credibility.
and his objectivity and his honesty, right? And he's right now, he's asserting that he was not honest. He's not saying I was confused and then I learned more information. He's saying, of course, this was never reasonable, but it was very. Uh, difficult at the time.
And to me, This is similar to maybe a pastor who has a really big moral failing. Where there's always welcome on a personal level. Like I welcome his willingness now, as annoying as it is to be public about this. But does he have the right to my belief in his reporting from here on out? I mean, as much as it would break my heart to lose him as a journalist, I just don't see how you earn that anymore, that that is your trade.
And again, This is not the same thing as a topic about which we really didn't know a lot and we were doing the best we could and then we learned more. It was never reasonable or rational to make that assertion that he was making that men can be women and should. There are four competing women's sports.
So that changes the math for me. And I think, man, It's going to be really hard to let him keep that reputation. Right. Look, I think the evidence for child harm on this has become way more obvious.
Now, we could obviously say that. It was obviously absurd and of course it was going to harm children. But the fact of the matter is To say that out loud, I think we underestimated, or I think it's possible that we underestimate the level of social pressure. And part of this conversation comes from the conversation we had at the Nash Coulson Center Conference two years ago. Thank you.
with the Wisconsin mom and her daughter. When in the middle of the conversation you start to realize She was all alone, like her husband. didn't question whether this was such a big deal. Teachers, her friends. Her church disappeared.
And now I think That No parent should ever go through that, but they did. And this was Wisconsin, right? And she was willing to say no.
Now, to me, that's unbelievable, the courage that this mom said. And even her daughter saying, as they admitted, her daughter telling her. She hated her every day for a year, I think is what she said. Gladwell didn't have that kind of pressure, certainly. But people were just told, this is settled, and you will lose everything.
And it was clear. And if Gladwell... was willing and now you know It's always better the day after you admit sin. or evil or deception than the day before? But the fact that he knew it and he was he admitted to being cowed into this position.
He didn't have to say anything at the beginning and he did.
So that's interesting, right? But wow, this brings up a lot of questions because you can imagine a scenario where someone really did believe. you know what all the doctors were saying now we know all the doctors were just making it up Under the guise of WPATH, which was a made-up organization with made-up credibility that never existed. You just talked about Billboard Chris. Like, he had we all had the same pressure.
Like, this was why it's hard to watch because Again, forgiveness, forgiveness for sure. And I think empathy and compassion, all that. But like restitution, I don't know, especially when you trade in your reputation as a credible, like earnest questioner of things. And that is his whole trade. I do not disagree.
I just think it. I think it's a lesson we can learn in cultural pressure, right? That really woe to those who call right wrong and wrong right, the scripture says. That's not just true of people. That's true of entire civilizations.
And we all do it in different ways. Good time to mention Truth Rising premieres today. Yeah.
Uh second. Only the Christian world view offer solid ground. and a messiah Who told us. to forgive. And, you know, forgiveness is not an outlier in the Christian worldview.
Forgiveness doesn't exist in other religions. It doesn't exist in other worldviews. It is an essential part. heart. of a Christian now Forgiving Malcolm Gladwell.
And, you know, again, he doesn't need my forgiveness. It's not a personal thing. He needs mine. He did your hat. But um There at least is a conversation that has to be had on this.
Forgiving someone doesn't mean restoring credibility, it doesn't mean restoring to a position, especially when you're talking about pastors.
So, anyway. There we go.
John, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with more breakpoint this week. Hi, John Stone Street here from the Colson Center. If you've ever taken a close look at a really old church building, most of the time, You can find a cornerstone. A lot of times, the cornerstone will bear the names of the founders who built the church, not just to last during their time.
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was almost Maybe our vice president. This week, there was a Senate hearing basically on affirming an appointee to the Trump administration, and he was questioning this person. And Senator Kaine said something like, You know, I've heard this dastardly rumor that you have said or agreed to this idea. That a person's individual rights do not come from the government or from law, but come from. A creator.
Can I read this statement? I feel like we've just got it. We've got to quote it. It was, it was. Yeah, I can't say it better than him.
Go ahead. All right, so here's Tim Kaine: the notion that rights don't come from laws and don't come from the government, but come from the creator. That's what the Iranian government believes. It's a theocratic regime that bases its rule on Sharia law. and target Sunnis, Baha'is, Jews, Christians, and other religious minorities, and they do it because they believe they understand what natural rights are from the Creator.
So the statement that our rights do not come from our laws or our government is extremely Troubling. And he said all this with doing that thing that I just can never understand, which is when you have glasses, but you don't need them to see far away.
So he puts them on his forehead weirdly. And then he kind of looks like he has four eyes. But that's not what I want to talk with you about, John. This was. I will admit, even shocking to me to hear, I mean, a person who ran for vice president to say that.
You just were hoping for somebody to do what Ted Cruz basically then did, was to mention the beginning of the Declaration of Independence. But I want to give you a chance to respond to Senator Kaine here.
Well, look, a lot of people have piled on Senator Kaine and understandably, and so this has been dissected. Not for the glasses, but for the statement. There's a lot of things that need to be said about this. And I think it's less that people were deceived by it, but I think it's a remarkably important teaching opportunity. I think it's a remarkably, it just brings up so many important things.
Now first, there was the tone-deaf inconsistency. There was just the irony that he completely missed something. Which is, if someone is guilty by association on this, in other words, oh, you believe that rights come from God, so do Muslims. He's not wrong on that, by the way. That's completely accurate.
Both believe that. What he missed is he believes rights come from government. You know who else believes that? Every fascist, communist, and totalitarian regime in history. including the ones we currently condemn, China and North Korea.
In other words, there is not A guilt by association here that he's going to win coming out of the 20th century. Uh especially. The other thing that is worth mentioning here is That The Muslim Countries that he rightly condemns of seeing in terms of human rights. have more in common With the totalitarian and fascist ones that believe rights come from government in terms of outcome. Eric Tietzel tweeted this today.
He's like, yes, he's right. Christians believe rights come from God, Muslims believe rights come from God. But why is every fundamentalist m Muslim country such a hellhole? And why do they dramatically improve the more they detach from their understanding of God and the more secular they become? It's because not all gods, as he put it, are created equal.
I've got a commentary on this coming out Monday in which I argue that what Tim Kaine completely misses here. Yeah.
There is a completely different understanding between Muslims and Christians on two points. primary things, which has led to the dramatically different outcomes in these visions. That is, they disagree on who God is. And they disagree on who humans are. It is the notion that rights come from God.
A Christian idea, as the atheist Luke Ferry actually attributes this vision. To a particularly also to a human's understanding or the Christian understanding that we're made in the image of God and human dignity. That is where, as he puts it. For it's it's it's it's it's to which we owe our entire democratic inheritance. That's what this Atheist philosopher.
Put it.
So it matters. Who we think God is, and it matters. what we think humans are. And it If you don't think there's anything to human exceptionalism, well, then you're back in the boat of the fascists and the totalitarians and so on, because you believe the individual. Doesn't have distinct and unique rights and dignity in and of him or herself, and therefore can be rightly sacrificed.
on the altar of the collective. What did the Nazis do? They took out the useless eaters first. Then they targeted the Jews and the communists. What did Stalin do?
you know, immediately, conveniently. Start eliminating people, the individuals who got in the way of the collective. What did Pol Pot do in Cambodia in the killing fields? Right. You know, any sort of form of human exceptionalism, you have to eliminate all that to put everyone on a level so that you can elevate.
The the state. What happens in fundamentalist Muslim regimes? The same sort of thing, right? Where the thing that matters is the collective, the state, the government, the body.
Now, of course, the other issue you have in Islam is that there's not a separation between. Church and state.
So, the church can't bring these truths outside of the state and ask the state to be allegiant to them because the church is the state and the state is the church. And that is a big difference as well.
So, And look, I appreciate somebody mentioned, you know, he's obviously. denying our founding documents because he obviously was. But there's way more here to dig at, I think. What if he had said, our rights. not necessarily come from, but are protected by the government.
And that it's what if he was suggesting it's dangerous?
Now, this is to be clear, this is not what he said. But I'm just trying to steel man it a little bit. What if he'd said? Isn't it the government's role to protect our rights and not the lay person's right to define what those rights are. Is that a more credible way of putting it?
Absolutely, but there's a difference between defining them and protecting them. The government's job is to protect rights. This is Chuck Coulson's line. I heard him say this a lot. If the government Is the source of your rights, or if the government thinks it's the source of your rights, then it will also think.
that it can take those rights away. And I think we have a little conversation. Kind of snapshot about this in our world right now, where the state thought that it had the capacity. And the prerogative to create new rights, new quote-unquote human rights, trans rights, you know, that sort of thing. And so what do we need to do?
Well We need to create trans rights so they feel fully included. And that means we have to open up. you know, women's spaces to men. Where does that lead? You know where that leads?
That leads to California. Where a school district basically says, Oh, yeah, you can opt out of sharing your space. Young woman. With a fully intact biological male. But you need to fill out this form first and admit you have a mental illness.
Right? I was asked about that on Culture Friday this week, and you're just like.
Okay, what are we seeing here? If the government thinks it has the prerogative to invent a new right, then it will also think it has the prerogative to take rights away. And you don't have to go down that road. It's not the zero-sum game that's in the system. And now, by the way, when The president steps up and the administration and the new Department of Education say, oh no, we're not inventing these new rights and then hijacking Title IX.
We're actually going to clarify Title IX that it was designed to protect women. and protect women's funding and protect women's privacy and protect women's access. And now, what do you have? You have people saying, well, you took this right away from me. This right wasn't a thing.
It didn't exist. It's brand new. It's like the word cisgender, it doesn't exist in real life. It's not a necessary word. It's not a necessary right.
And so then you squeal about losing the rights. You see, this is where the confusion comes from. It reminds me a little bit. I came of age in the era of the Equal Rights Amendment. I have been informed that this is making a resurgence and we're using it completely differently now in relation to transgenderism.
But In my coming of age moment, this was an equal rights amendment about adding an amendment to the Constitution about the equal rights of women. And I am so grateful for the women before me who stood up against that. And their argument was that women already as human beings have equal rights. And to enshrine this in this particular way in law is to suggest that only government gives us that right, which then, as you're saying, suggests that government can then also take it away. And there's a paradoxical weakness in asking the government to do something like that, because you're suggesting that your definition as a person comes from outside of you and your creator and comes from the government, which is a place of danger and vulnerability.
Absolutely. And then you also don't have anything by which to judge the government. The government then becomes the highest thing. Right. So, how then, if you think, if you hold to Tim Kaine's view that the government is the source of your rights, How do you judge them for human rights violations?
Right? You lose any credibility and any ground to stand on. It's like the relativists saying something is wrong based on what? You know, you can't. It has to come from a higher source.
And yes, absolutely, it is the state's job. The state does have a role. This isn't an anti-state view. At all. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about this today and wanted to dig at this a little bit more.
is because when I first came came across Tim Kaine's comments this week, my spidey sense went off and I remembered a piece. from that that kind of hit the news and we may have done some a conversation on it back then i don't remember But a politico reporter on, I think it was an MSNBC or maybe a CNN political show. I think preparing us, I think, was the thing for The the Christians in this upcoming election back in 2024, I think, if I remember correctly. And what happened was, this woman basically said, you're going to have to distinguish between Christians and Christian nationalists. And you'll know a Christian nationalist because, and this is where she began.
She landed, I mean, she launched the plane from this spot. Christian nationalists are those who believe that rights come from God, not the government. And you're like. Whoa, now look, it is one thing when uh You know, a clearly progressive media figure says this on a clearly progressive media network. It's another thing when it's elected official and someone who was almost the vice president.
of the United States. But I think That there was a lot of outrage to this comment, and I think that that was justified. But if you don't have an understanding that goes along with the outrage, I think this is going to become an increasing talking point. Right. Those who presume a secular point of view And it always has, in a sense, the separation of church and state.
So, the introduction that there could be something higher than the government. Is immediately a violation of this notion that they have of the separation of church and state in the way that they conceive of it, which I also think is wrong. And I think we have to have the ability both to mentally discern this. In other words, like, why do rights come from God? And what do we mean by that?
And so on. And we're gonna have to do that in a way because I think we're gonna basically get to the point. where this is the talking point. Right? When you hear it mentioned in those two sources and just said as if it's factual.
despite the fact that it's patently absurd. And it's historically inconsistent. And the guy completely just missed. The hole he was digging himself in in the moment, not only in terms of the Declaration, but in terms of putting himself in bed with the greatest violators of human rights in human history. Like, we have to be able to articulate that and not just go, that's stupid.
You know, we got to be able to say why. He's sitting there under the authority of Donald Trump's administration. Like, so are you, I don't think you want to be making the assertion that you think you're making.
Well, John, let's take another quick break. We'll be right back with more breakpoint this week. I spent my career.
Some sixty odd years thinking, studying, debating, and writing. about the great questions of human existence. I consider this the calling God has placed on my life. And yet, The questions I've spent my lifetime wrestling with have never been more urgent than right now. I believe that we are at a civilizational moment.
The period of crisis. When a civilization, our civilization, completely loses touch with the inspiration that made it, what it is. It is at this point Like all the other civilizations that have come and gone before us, that we face three clear options. Renew the original inspiration? replace it with something equally solid?
or decline. That's Oz Guinness in Truth Rising, a new groundbreaking documentary film from the Coulson Center and Focus on the Family. As Oz says, we're living in a civilizational moment. We know museums and history books are full of artifacts of once dominant civilizations that have been long ago reduced to ruins. And that's the inevitable future of the West if we are detached from the essential truths that rooted and nourished it.
Christians are not victims of civilizational decline. We've been put in this time, in this place, on purpose by God. Truth Rising helps Christians see how critical this civilizational moment is and understand the role that they have to play in it. embracing their calling to be agents of renewal wherever God has placed them. The film premieres globally September the 5th.
Sign up for updates at truthrising.com slash Colson. That's truthrising.com slash Colson. It's always a good day when I get to see Jack Phillips from Masterpiece Cake Shop in Denver, Colorado, someone that just Story we've told on Breakpoint a number of times and followed it because it's a story that has. Taken a long time to come together, and it still goes on. And I Also, how God has used that story.
But, Jack, thanks so much for stopping in. We're actually in the same location, which is even better. Yeah.
It's my pleasure to be here as always, John. To talk to you, I think, Jack, if anybody who's listened to Breakpoint for a while probably knows about ADF and then probably knows about your story because your story. Really has defined the cultural issue of religious liberty and freedom of. Of speech and conscience rights, and what it means to be a Christian in the public square. And what it means to make a decision that's going to have long-term consequences.
This is the why don't you just bake the cake conversation that the world's been having here and in America in particular. But I remember, I remember, you know, being on my front porch with my newspaper on a Saturday morning and seeing the headline. You know, baker refuses to bake a cake for a gay couple, and it obviously didn't get all the details right. But when was that? What year was that?
That was 13 years ago, July 19th, 2012.
So 13 years. You had no sense when you made that decision that this was going to go to the Supreme Court. Oh, no. And you had no sense that the Supreme Court wouldn't be the end of the story either. I mean, I just think about that journey.
And I hope it's okay to say this. If not, we'll edit it. It is. But it it was pretty early on after maybe 2015, I don't remember the exact date, but that you and your your your wife and Your ADF attorney, at the time Kristen Wagner, came up to our church. the street and we hosted a conversation with you.
And we went out to dinner ahead of time. We had met before, but that was the first time we spent extended time period. I got to tell you something I see. And again, I hope it's okay to say this. There was A good bit of fear at that time.
For you guys, it seemed there was um It was uncertain. the death threats I think were weighing and the threats to your life and well-being, to your children, to the shop. We're really weighing heavily on this. throughout this whole thing. And this is actually one of the things that the Supreme Court specifically said.
smack down the Civil Rights Commission of Colorado for being just so rude. than just being so cruel and being so relentless. Impermissible hostility is the word they use. Impermissible hostility. That's a quote.
I mean, listen, that is a way of saying it because it was awful. How do I want to say this? What I saw at that first dinner. And maybe my perception is wrong. And what I see in y in your eyes and your heart and having had conversations now, of how the Lord has used this.
And there's obviously more to the story that we're going to tell. I just I'm astounded. At The peace that you have The forgiveness that you have. The courage and the confidence in the Lord. Your commitment to share Christ, wasn't it the day you heard that the Supreme Court was gonna hear?
the the masterpiece case that you got the phone call. From Another person that led into the second chapter of this that you know, went on up until what, just last year. Right. Let me preface that though, but the the day that the U.S. Supreme Court granted our case and announced that they were going to hear it.
You have to understand that the United States Supreme Court gives Petitions, they call them petition of searcher area, 8,000 to 10,000 every year, and they can take 70 to 80. There's just no time on a schedule to take them all. And they're all legitimate cases. That's why they're going to the U.S. Supreme Court.
So to get chosen by the U.S. Supreme Court is less than 1%. The way our case made it through the court didn't start in the court system. It started in administrative law court, which is part of the governor's office, not the judicial. And so the governor gets to appoint the commissioners who are Attacking me for lack of a better word.
And also, the judge who's going to rule on it. Wow.
So the odds are stacked against you.
So we lose there. Then we went to the Colorado Court of Appeals. That's the legitimate court part of the judicial system. Not that the other is not ju legitimate, it's just not part of the court system. And we lost there.
And we appeal to the State Supreme Court. And they declined to hear our case.
So it's done. Unless the U.S. Supreme Court hears it.
So it's an unusual track to get there. But uh The U.S. Supreme Court then granted our case. I get choked up about it now. And it's seven, eight years ago.
But I was watching on my computer. There's a website called SCOTUS Blog. SCODUS is an acronym, Supreme Court of the U.S. Scotusblog.com. And so they follow all the Supreme Court cases, and they'd mention mine over and over again because it had been tracked for months all the way leading up to this.
And finally, the last day of the session, I see five words on there, said, Masterpiece Cake Shop has been granted. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't call people because I couldn't talk. And The only one I could share it with was a homeless guy who's in my shop. I get to go to the Supreme Court.
Yeah, I got to go to court on Wednesday.
So that's what he said. Yeah, so. Kind of Oh well, oh fine. You don't get it. But um so yeah, going to the uh Supreme Court is an amazing thing and to get there the way we did.
Yes. Only God's grace. The decision was an interesting decision. It didn't settle all the questions, as we know, but it did very much say, like, listen, state actors cannot be. What was the phrase that you used?
Impermissibly hostile. Impermissibly hostile. What a sanctified way of saying. Gosh, I mean the Commissioner. Yeah, I was so, so angry time after time after time and how the Civil Rights Commission and then even after that, because really the second chapter began with the Civil Rights Commission receiving another complaint that you refused to bake a cake.
And this this time was from a uh and a a Denver attorney who clearly targeted you. And a trans man, a man who identified as a woman, asked you to.
Well, I I don't know if we even want to describe the cake, but it was just Oh, that the first one was just the transition. The one that took us to cake to court again. called up the day that the court granted our case. We've got media, it's chaos, it's a crazy day. The phone rings and it's, you know, can you make a pink cake?
Yeah.
Can you ice it in blue? Sure.
Well, it's to celebrate changing from a man to a woman. It's a gender transition cake.
Well now you just made it a cake with a message, and I don't want to express that message. If you need a pink and blue cake for another event, that I'd be glad to do. I was glad that you served that to you. I will make you other cakes, but I can't create that cake for that event. You're welcome in my shop.
That person? Back then, filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission.
So then we get our ruling at the U.S. Supreme Court, and three weeks later, the Civil Rights Commission has been sitting on this complaint all this time. Three weeks later. They say they have probable cause to pursue again, so we start up again. We call that one Masterpiece 2.
Masterpiece 1, 2, and then ultimately Masterpiece 3. Yeah, it's Masterpiece 3. Describe that. Same cake, same person. but in Masterpiece 2, the Colorado Civil Rights Commission.
Dismissed the case. And then, after over 90 days, the person who filed the complaint. Filed a personal lawsuit against us, and so we started over in court again. The injustice continued, right? I mean, listen, they should have never brought that up.
They should have immediately dropped it the moment that they got smacked down by the Supreme Court for mistreating you. They didn't. It was the same exact thing. They tried to go, the Civil Rights Commission tried to go down that line. realize that They were going to lose again, I think.
There there was a moment in which The judge. And Colorado, granted that this personal lawsuit would go forward. And that to me was one of the heights of injustice that you faced, right? Because it was clear. That this man had been basically harassing you.
Yeah, so asking you to bake cake after cake after cake. Including a cake with Satan smoking marijuana. We found that out separately from all the discovery and the court stuff. But this person Two weeks after David and Charlie walked in, the two men that asked for the same sex fighting cake was already emailing me. At that point.
six years had already been. Mm-hmm. Pursuing a reason to find a case.
Soren Kierkegaard says that life has to be lived forward, but it can only be understood backwards. And you had no idea looking forward. You just knew that you had to make this decision. And now you look back and see how God has. woven this together.
and has become such an incredible decision. The stories that we tell. Uh in the truth rising documentary. In the second half of the film are all stories of courage. You, Chloe Cole, the D-transitioner.
Seth Dillon from the Babylon B. Ianne Hersial Lee, this remarkable. a public servant and public leader and Katie Faust of them before us. And As I've looked at it, there's stories of calling that God calls us to a particular time and a particular place. And he does that to work out purposes that we can't see, but he's trustworthy.
And each of those stories, as I've Reflected on, and as these individuals like you tell the stories, that certain things rise to the top. And for you, What really rises to the top for me is that God can be trusted. You know? And he's good. And he's good.
I mean, because you you had no idea. And Christians are known for sometimes throwing Romans 8:28 bombs at people who are suffering. Like, all things will work together. you know, for a good brother, and that doesn't always, you know, feel good in the moment. But that is true.
God does work those things together for good, right? Yeah.
And we don't know what those things are going to be. And When you took that stand, And I read it in the newspaper that Saturday morning, sitting on my front porch in the Colorado Springs newspaper. I thought, oh, dude, that dude is in trouble. I had no idea who you were. I was like, that dude is in trouble.
And you know why? Is because it felt even though at that time Colorado did not have. Same-sex marriage on the books. In fact, had a constitutional amendment that had been voted on defining marriages between a man and a woman. The cultural vibe, it just seemed overwhelming.
And it was only going to get worse. And even when the the the issue became about the trans quote unquote trans cake. That issue seemed like a runaway train. That was unstoppable. that we were just going to be on the wrong side of history and overrun by, you know?
And we tell the story of Chloe Cole. Chloe herself was deceived. into believing that she had been born into the wrong body. And underwent a double mastectomy at age sixteen. And now God has brought her back to who she really is, and brought her to himself.
And that whole issue, in other words, It just makes me remember how overwhelming the culture felt at that time. And now here we are talking to you, seeing how God was using your obedience and that act of courage. And using her willingness to admit that she was wrong and to come back. And come to Christ. And now everything feels different.
You know what I mean? It just feels like a completely different moment. And that tells me not that we should be. you know, tossed around on the wind of culture. What it tells us is, is we need to know what truth is.
We need to put our feet on what truth is and then trust God. Yeah.
And that's your story, just screams that. in that documentary. I really want to thank you for telling the story. the way you did as well. Because that's the message that comes out.
He can be trusted. Yeah.
And he's good. my book, The Cost of My Faith. I have it at the shop, and if you buy one at the shop, it's got a sticker in it with a Bible verse in it. And I hate people that put Bible verses in it in their stuff. But this one is from 2 Chronicles 16, 9.
And it's the Old Testament and it's Just kind of wedged in the middle of a story of a king, but the verse says: the eyes of the Lord ranged throughout the whole world to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. And that's good. A universal promise. It's not one that's like, this one's to Abraham, that one's to Joshua. This one is the eyes of the Lord range through the whole world.
Like, for God so loved the world. He wants to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
So All we have to do is be obedient. Trust Him. He's sovereign over everything, every star. Not one of them is missing. And he wants to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
And we've seen it so many times. We've just been listening to a special interview between John and Jack Phillips. We're so grateful he took the time to chat with us this week. But, John, now it's time to talk about some of the questions that we've received from our listeners. The first, and I know we've gotten a handful about these, is in reference to the new season of Shiny Happy People.
We talked about this. documentary which I'm putting in air quotes. That the first season came out, I think, last year, two years ago, and was about kind of Bill Gothard and some of the scandal around that. This newest season, our series of episodes, is about Acquire the Fire, which was a big deal when I was a kid. These were like the kind of Christian rock concert worship conferences that we used to go to.
It was a really youth group activity of the year kind of thing. And I understand Chuck is mentioned in this, again, documentary. I'm not sure what else to call it, propaganda. I don't know. But we have had several listeners reach out to us and ask: did they do him justice?
Are people upset about this? How are we responding? What do you think of the way Chuck? Has been portrayed in this newest season of Shiny Happy People. Yeah, we've gotten a few questions about this, and I didn't want to address it just mainly because I don't think this is going to be all that important of a.
docuseries, especially season two. Dealing with Ron Luce, Acquire the Fire, an organization that has since shut down. They had a A major, major footprint in terms of evangelical youth ministry for a long time. and um and so on. Uh, there's two things here to mention.
Number one is the um the problems that were inherent within the gothered. organization that are highlighted in season one. And the attempt to equivocate what happened at Acquire the Fire and Teen Mania and in season two, they don't seem to be at the same time. Same level. I don't have a great deal of familiarity with either one, but just watching the docuseries, there's kind of this.
this kind of breathless You know, can you believe? They had a tank roll into a youth conference. I hardly believe that your rights come from your creator, but go on. It's kind of that kind of breathless outrage. That It just didn't make sense.
I mean, there's things where you're like. They expected young people to get up early and run two miles. And this was because they had a kind of a. an academy that, you know, Kind of was an alternative to college that Ron Moose had, and so on.
So, the whole thing to me was just kind of a little bit. Bizarre. There's a podcast series happening. about the Liberty University godparent home. Which is a home for unwed mothers that Jerry Falwell started.
Interestingly enough, as a way to Answer that question. It's like, oh, you only care about children before they're born, or you only care about, you don't care about the women, or whatever. And there is the same sort of thing where, you know, they're saying These girls could not just call anyone they wanted whenever they wanted. you know we're talking about teenage girls that are you know being cared for in a community And these girls. you know couldn't have any visitors at all times during the day.
And you're just, you're like, that's all kind of pretty normal. Behavior and so on. And so, anyway, the whole thing is unconvincing.
Now, specifically on Chuck Coulson. What's fascinating is that they basically, in this docuseries, accused Ron Luce of acquire the fire of trying to take over the enter the political world and take over the political world and the first sign of it was working with Chuck Coulson. The the the devious strategy was to produce a worldview curriculum. And I remember the Worldview Curriculum. It was really interesting.
It was an attempt. To take kind of this old wise sage like Chuck Coulson and combine him with the most popular youth guy on the planet, Ron Luce. And it would go back and forth between ideas and the influences, for example, on issues of suicidality and drug abuse. and porn use and all the things that that Luce was talking about.
Now I'd I had issues with kind of Luce's understanding of youth ministry, kind of the bigger is better and the flower, you know, the big shouty things and all that. And I've I've got kind of lost my um taste for Um high-tech Super excitable. You know youth ministry sort of thing. But he got a lot of people out there serving. He got a lot of people out there doing missions.
And so on. And he did it at such a pace. And that was the issue in the 90s. you you kind of drive it all forward and you don't always catch all the The challenges, for example, you know, all the legal responsibilities you have, I guess. And there are other things I think that are probably legitimately being brought up in the docuseries that needed to be critiqued, but none of this is dramatic.
And honestly, I have not, I watched it. I have not lost a because it's my job to do that, particularly when Chuck is mentioned. I have not lost a second sleep worrying about any of it. Yeah, this will come and go. There is nothing there.
Chuck Colson did have a big public failure and scandal. And it happened before he met Jesus in the Watergate administration. I don't really expect to hear anything else. About it. And this certainly was a what is the word?
A nothing burger. I mean, I guess we'll find out, but is there still really an audience for this kind of thing? Oh, I think there is. I mean, I think. You know, we need to have that conversation because You know, I have a podcast coming out with Justin Brierly, a special episode of our podcast, because I'm just so fascinated with what has been called the quiet revival in the UK.
And Justin has been doing, first of all, he's a podcast podcaster extraordinaire. He's founded and was a First host of Unbelievable, which he was the first one to get these major atheist voices and these major Christian voices talking. And at the same time, started to notice that some of these major atheist voices were kind of turning around, going, Yeah, Christianity isn't. what ruined the world and God is not a delusion and you know We need Christmas carols and things like that.
So I think all that's super interesting. But One of the things that emerged out of that And it's a little, the contrast is a little more stark in the U.S. Yeah.
You know, we've been doing this long enough, you and me, that we had many conversations about the rise of the nuns, right? The NONEs, the religiously unaffiliated. The most significant trend in religion. in the West. of the last 15 years, and that trend has come to a halt.
And now you have. increasing the uh Barna uh the Barna group had an interesting You know, contribution to this growing list of statistics that young people are going back to church. In the UK, it's young people are going back to church. In the US, it's young men are going back to church and young women are not. We'll see on the young women.
I still need to see more data on that. But as he talked about that, there's this real disillusionment, at least in the UK version of this trend. With secularism. And I said, isn't that interesting? Because what we were told with the rise of the nuns, particularly the ex-vangelical version of the nuns.
Which these sh the shiny happy people Documentary series. This is actually being produced. By a group of those. Is that the rise of the nuns, the ex-evangelicals in particular, was because of the. disillusionment with the church.
And Briarly was talking specifically about the UK saying, yeah, there's a real disillusionment with secularism. And could it be possibly true that you and I have done this long enough to see the shift? From the rise of the nuns because of a disillusionment with church. to the rise of the church-going young people because of a disillusionment with secularism.
So there's still now, you know, I asked him about that, and he said, well, you know, the difference in the UK is you don't have that church baggage. You know, that's still there because young people didn't go to church. You know, I mean, when he talks about the spike in church attendance, he's going from 4% to 16% or something like that. You know, we're still talking about something dramatically small. You'll have a lot more of that church baggage that gets fleshed out.
And you've also got these publications who can't wait to talk about it. you know, the Huffington Post and apparently Netflix or whoever did these series. are willing to to to to to you know platform this um But it it is sounding increasingly Implausible. Not that they don't have any legitimate complaints. Of course, there's things to complain about.
And there's things to critique in the way the church. has operated. And especially how we deal with young people and so on. But do you remember before the the election, Rob Reiner came out with a documentary supposedly about Christian nationalism? And I I just keep I keep thinking about that.
I mean, I I don't want to be too um rose color glasses about the vibe shift, but like nobody cared about that. And nobody talks about it. And that was Rob Reiner. Nobody talks about it anymore. It obviously didn't sway the election the way he hoped it would.
And I'm I'm just hoping the audience for this kind of disingenuous stuff is diminishing Bill Maher did religilists back in the day, and that was a kind of flash in the pan, and no one really cared about it. And then there were some others. I mean, even the new atheist, right? I mean, they had a moment, but then it was like, So, I, you know, maybe, maybe that trend goes back further than we're giving it credit for. I don't know.
It's interesting. But there was a time when I, you know, I think there was a real. Feeling threatened about it.
Now, the Christian nationalism conversation needs to go forward because. Everyone who's accused of Christian nationalism is not, but some are. That's a category error in terms of how they're thinking about it. And so I think we need to kind of walk through that and flesh that out. But.
I think it's less believable when you just lump You know, everyone like Ron Luce into a Christian nationalist category and just go from there. I mean, again, there's plenty to critique. And there was a lack of care. And particularly the the college and the the boot camp sort of thing that he ran that, you know And there were things that absolutely are worth going after, like that, you know, that need to be, um And it shut down. You know, that's the thing.
It did shut down. But it's just like this is it's it just doesn't punch anymore, I don't think. The way these things are done. Anyway, it's interesting.
Well, I've got one more quick question for you. We talked a few weeks ago about the need to educate. Christian educators and the need for Christian universities who will encourage educators not just to go into the public schools, but also to create and administer really powerful Christian schools as well. And we had a listener write in and ask what your impressions were of Dort University in Iowa. I know they partner with World in training journalists.
But outside of that connection, I don't know a whole lot about Dort. Do you have an impression of that university there? Yeah.
Oh, listen, I don't know a ton about Dort. I know some, and what I know, I'm really pleased with. And I think they're an example of a Christian school that has to some degree, if I If I'm saying this correctly, it has committed to saying, look, there it is a noble calling to educate Christian teachers for Christian schools. And that was the thing that I was pointing out is most Christian colleges have been completely. captivated by this false vision that it's somehow more noble to populate teachers into public schools.
have completely missed the fact. that by doing that and accepting that as their calling and their mission, They have completely caved on the definition of education. They have completely caved to the demands of an increasingly progressive and secular. Education Department. That basically demands accreditation standards that compromise Christian belief.
And I can walk down the line, you know, at one level to be Christian as an educator in this system. Back in the 2000s, I was seeing this. at at Christian colleges, where to be a Christian educator only meant to be nice. And not to have any sort of distinctly different understanding of all the other things. Like education and like of the topics and like the subject areas and like the varied tasks.
I think there are other things that need to be pointed out. I think. That Christian colleges oftentimes compete with church and church allegiance and church attendance and foster. A habit of getting in the way of the church. I think there's the debt issue, which that's, of course, across the board.
with colleges, but that's a real You know, structural problem, I think, that needs to be pointed out.
So I've got plenty of things. And trust me, I've got thoughts on all kinds of stuff, obviously. But there are Christian colleges doing really wonderful things, and I'm a big fan of it. And what I know of Doord is good, there's no question about it. I think they have thought through at a philosophical level.
Some things that other colleges have have not. They've got a robust theological set of convictions that ground it. There's something about the Reformed. Vision, the Kyperion vision of Christ overall that gives you a way to do that. There are other colleges too.
I'm not trying to single out. Doort, we were just asked about that. I also think that Dort has done some interesting things. They have a whole division on sport, which I think that's another area of great confusion for Christians, from Christian parents to Christian schools to Christian colleges. What do you do with sport?
Clearly, I say this as a big sports fan. Especially basketball, and I think it has a noble place in our lives, but Has been really, really confused.
So I could say that about Dort: that they've asked some really interesting questions and written some things and Created training that many schools, that I think some K to 12 Christian schools need to take advantage of. That's my limited knowledge, and there are other good colleges as well. Please do not write and say, well, what about this college and what about this college? Because I do not have universal knowledge. Of all those, I have a few that I'm a fan of, and that's about all I know.
Okay, John, well, let's hit some recommendations for this week. I want to give you another chance to talk about Truth Rising. This is a big week for that documentary.
So I'll just quickly recommend. Let's see. I've been going back through my Sarah Groves catalog. It does not surprise anyone that I love her music and talk about it all the time. She is doing a little celebration I've seen online of her, I think it's the 25th anniversary of her Conversations album, which is one of her very best.
And I think she re-released a couple of those songs with like different production. But it is never a mistake to go back and listen to Sarah Groves and sit down and listen to the words. I've talked my daughter's ears off enough times about how much some of the words of these songs mean to me to the point where whenever they're listening to the radio or listening to Christian playlists and the songs come on. We've taught them how to send messages and music through our Amazon like echo dots. We have them in several rooms in our house.
And if some of my favorite songs come on, they always send them to whatever room I'm in. And it's very, very sweet. It also was a mistake to teach my kids how to communicate through those because I feel like I'm being summoned at all times of of the day. But this part of it specifically is very sweet.
So go back and listen to Conversations by Sarah Groves and any of the rest of her stuff too. You won't regret it. All right, your turn, John. I am double-minded on my recommendations. First, you can still get access to This year's 2025 Colson Center National Conference Audio.
We had such a great conference back in May. And all the sessions now are available. Go to colsoncenter.org/august. That will be. provided to you for a gift of any amount to the Colson Center.
But of course today, September the 5th. is the premiere of Truth Rising. This has been a long time coming. collaboration with Focus on the Family, the Coulson Center. uh uh a a a documentary that walks from the The time and place we are in Western culture.
Led by the one and only Oz Guinness to Stories that really illustrate for us what it means to be called to this moment and to live into that calling as a voice of courage and renewal. And it just really is an attempt to take seriously this. This thing that we say all the time, that we're called to a time and place. Our time and place is particularly loaded. The documentary also is followed by a four-part study that you can do.
With friends, with neighbors, and churches. It's exciting to hear so many churches that are going to be showing the documentary. and that are also going to be Showing the four-part series. We got a premiere coming up next week live in person at Birchman Baptist Church in Fort Worth. Texas.
So, if you happen to be in the Fort Worth or Dallas area and you want to join us for that. You can, that's going to be at Birchman Baptist Church on Monday night. Uh Monday the uh what is that, the eighth I think. And so it'd be great to have you there. But we're excited about this.
Go to truthrising.com/slash Colson. truthrising.com slash colson and you can get access to watch it You can show it to in a home group and you get resources with that and everything else. I'm excited about that. All right.
Well, that is going to do it for the program this week. Thanks so much for listening to Breakpoint This Week from the Colson Center for Christian Worldview. I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street. See you all back here next week. God bless.
