You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian worldview. Today, we're gonna talk about the passing of Focus on the Family founder, Dr. James Dobson. We're also gonna talk about the ongoing persecution of Christians in Nigeria. And the mass exit of American parents from the public school system.
We have a lot to get to you this week. We're so glad you're with us. Stick around.
Well welcome to Breakpoint this week. From the Colson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street, President of the Coulson Center. John, we are recording this, of course, on Thursday afternoon, and we received word this week, as the rest of the world did, that Dr. Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family, has passed away.
So he obviously had a huge impact on my life, on the country. arguably on the world. And Shirley on you and your work as well. Do you want to share a little bit about that?
Well, it was a giant. And I think there's a lot of things to think about. First of all, it's that this is. Another in a generation. that has now died, that had an outsized role.
In American culture as evangelicals. I mean, we just recently talked about John MacArthur. Obviously, we were. Founded by Chuck Coulson, uh who died over 10 years ago. Billy Graham, you know, Charles Stanley.
The list goes on and on and on. And, you know, a lot of people, I think, are asking. You know, will any Would anything be like that again, where you have this kind of um These kinds of leaders. It's hard to overestimate the legacy of Jim Dobson. You know, the amount of things that he founded.
And the impact that he had at the heyday of focus on the family radio. Is absolutely incredible. I mean, I've got a handful of stories. I had the privilege of meeting him a few times and. You know, one was I was speaking for a group of homeschool leaders in Colorado Springs.
And this group of homeschool leaders, and these were kind of the Illuminati of the homeschool movement. Did you know there was an Illuminati of the homeschool movement? There were many more. No, no, it's interesting. But there was a recognition at this point where they welcomed Dr.
Dobson and gave him an award and said, You know, really, homeschooling would not have happened the way that it had without Dobson putting it on the radio. A lot of people don't know that part of the story. You know, we are going to talk later on about, you know. this kind of critical moment in American education where Uh the public school status quo is is is threatened. At a degree we haven't seen in our lifetime.
And he had something to do with that. There's no question about it by actually promoting it, convincing an awful lot of. A parents That they could try it and that they should. And of course, at the same time, he was coming out of. The aggressive secularism that was pushing abortion, pushing uh certain ideas about sexuality through the public schools and And of course, pushing prayer and Bible reading out, just really kind of like Jerry Falwell, just a little bit later.
But my story on the impact of Dr. Dobson goes back to my previous work with summit ministries. A lot of our listeners will know Summit and will know that I worked with Summit for years. I worked with the founder of Summit Ministries, David Noble. And David Noble ran this two-week summer program that was highly academic, talking about worldviews and apologetics.
and Ryan Dobson, Jim Dobson's son, was sent to Summit. Against his will. And it ended up being so transformative. This was back in the early 90s. That Dr.
Dobson put David Noble on the radio for three straight days. At that point in history.
Now, to give you a sense of how big this was. Summit at the time was hosting conferences for about 400 people. This, I think, took place in the late fall. I could get maybe some of the details of this story wrong, and forgive me if I do. But Summit received as a result of those three days of broadcast 30,000 phone calls and requests for information.
and 14,000 requests for applications. They received all those applications. Where do you, I mean, remember, this is before computers. These are physical app these are physical four-page applications. Where do you put 14,000 of them?
I mean, it almost overwhelmed Summit. And when I was working years later, I remember hearing on meeting students who said, oh, yeah, I'm here at Summit because my mom heard Jim Dobson's radio program before I was born. and decided that we're going to send him to Summit. We could talk about the Alliance Defending Freedom. We could talk about Family Research Council.
We could talk about the. family policy councils, the work that your husband does. I mean, all of this has direct ties to what Jim Dobson inspired or did directly. And so it really is outsize. And of course, you also could see that by the amount of opposition that he received.
Yeah. I grew up reading Brio magazine. Dr. Dobson's show I know meant a lot to my parents, but I I credit Brio Magazine with really being the spark that made me want to be a writer and a reporter. And I went on to college to study magazine writing specifically.
And that was my, it just seemed so fun and creative and also deep. And I learned so much about the Bible. And Jesus threw it and it meant a ton to me. And then of course, in my college years, then I was lucky enough to get an internship at Brio and to attend the back then it was called the Focus on the Family Institute. And then it became briefly the Focus Leadership Institute.
Somewhat similar to Summit, I think, but was incredibly transformative in my life. professionally and personally. I mean, I had I just started dating my now husband when I went to the Focus Institute. And it was like premarital counseling. I mean, it truly changed our lives.
And as you mentioned, Aaron is in. Aaron works in this field now. I mean, I feel like I wouldn't have the life I had had Dr. Dobson not followed his calling. And we're going to get in so much trouble with.
Yeah, we're going to get in so much trouble if we get out of this segment without mentioning Adventures and Odyssey, which is the most popular thing of all time. I can't tell you how many people who are like, oh, you live in Colorado Springs, and then rattle off the zip code because they heard it at the end of Adventures and Odyssey program.
So, but anyway, you know, our prayers go out to. To his lovely family, and really just an enormous influence. And it also says a lot about the moment that we're in, the passing of giants like this. There's a lot to learn about, you know, if you're interested in history and sociology at all, the evangelical use of media technology. You know, he's a central part of that story.
If there were a legitimate, straightforward Mount Rushmore of radio, not just Christian radio, but radio. Jim Dotson would be on it. And well, I mean, even the modern evangelical movement, I think the same. Like, even. We're probably going to talk about we're going to talk about later, even in that segment you mentioned about schooling.
The way the mainstream media covers Christianity and the church, I mean, Dr. Dobson is still such a symbol of that. Which is, you know, speaks to his in his influence for sure.
Well, John, there's another story I wanted to briefly touch on.
So, I mean, Dr. Dobson met President Trump famously kind of before his 2016 or after his 2016 election and kind of Got a chance to talk to him about Christianity, again, speaking to the influence of Dr. Dobson, even at that later point in his life. But the president said something this week that has a lot of Christians kind of maybe scratching their head, maybe going to their knees and praying for the president. But I wanted to chat with you about this.
So notably right now the United States is trying to negotiate a deal. I don't know if that's the right word to use to describe it, but discussions between Russia and Ukraine, discussions about ending the war. And when President Trump was speaking about this effort earlier this week, he said, and I'll quote it here. I want to try to get to heaven if possible. I'm hearing that I'm not doing well.
This is so Trumpian. I'm hearing that I'm not doing well. I really hit the bottom of the totem pole. But if I can get to heaven, this, referring to negotiating peace between Russia and Ukraine. will be one of the reasons.
Is this good theology?
Well, no, I mean, it's not, but it's not unusual theology. I've got a commentary on this that was aired. A Friday of this week, and you know, kind of walks through. This is actually what a lot of people believe: that you work hard to get to heaven. There was a.
An Allen Jackson song, you know, back in the 90s about, you know, where I come from, it's cornbread and chicken, front porch sitting and working hard to get to heaven. The number of evangelicals that show up year after year after year, polling, and this, you know, predates the president and the so-called, you know, the takeover of evangelicalism by President Trump, which I think is an oversold case by far. But, you know, many people see this: that it's about good works, that Jesus is an exclusive, that, you know, heaven is a state of mind. I mean, when you look at the surveys that really measure where people stand on various points of theology that talk about heaven and the exclusivity of Christ and what it means. People are all over the place.
So he's really a reflection, I think, of American theology on this and a pretty popular. View. It's a wrong view. It's a very wrong view. I was really grateful for the Babylon Bee who followed this up and tweeted something not satire, which is, Actually, God says that President Trump can get to heaven if he confesses his sins and accepts Jesus Christ as his only Savior.
And that's exactly how you get to heaven, kids. I mean, that's how it's done. And I think it's important for us to. To be clear on that and to use opportunities like this to articulate that. All this, by the way, reminded me of two things.
One is I had a Wonderful conversation with Jack Phillips this week. It'll air later on. In a couple months, and Jack talked about his own conversion, and he just articulated. And this is what I mean when I say I got saved. And he went, and it was exactly right.
And the contrast here was just really. Really stunning between this common belief that heaven, if you're a good person, if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds. It's absolutely wrong. And by the way, I was also reminded of Chuck's conversion and when Chuck talked about how what he realized is at the end of the day, he needed Jesus because he couldn't fix it himself. But this also came, something we're going to talk about later on in the program.
Hopefully, we'll have time: penal substitutionary atonement, which is kind of the nerdy theological way of talking about Jesus dying for our sins. And what does that mean? And, you know, this was an incredibly important conversation.
So, You know, you might say that these are the basics. You know, gentlemen, this is a football, to quote Vince Lombardi, this is the football of Christianity, that who Jesus is and what he did. And, you know, it's important that we get that right. I think it's harder for people, understandably. It almost feels easier to assume that you can work for it yourself.
It's hard to ask for help. It's hard to admit you need help. And it's very hard to say that you can't. Get to heaven on your own, by your own will. One of the, you know, the survey tells us that the majority of people don't believe in original sin.
And so you have these kind of related beliefs that make it, you know, like you said, easier to believe these bad theological positions and the right theological positions, right? If you don't think you're fundamentally guilty, And of course, we came out of the self-esteem movement, the you're okay, I'm okay, the emotional, social. I mean, there's so many different ways that we're told you're okay, you're okay, you're okay, you're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone at people like you. And that's. If you don't have the right view of human sin, you're not going to have the right view of what it takes to get to heaven.
Well, John, there's one more news story I want to hit real quick before we move on. And that is Newsweek published an item. this week saying that The estimate is now that more than 7,000 Christians have been killed in Nigeria. this year. That is an average of 35 people a day, 35 Christian believers in Nigeria a day that are being murdered.
This number has come out from a human rights NGO based in Nigeria called the International Society for Civil Liberties and the Rule of Law.
However, you look at it, this, I mean, I don't, my jaw is on the floor. This is a shocking number to me. And we've covered this massacre of Christians in Nigeria before, and what is hard to see as anything except like the slow walking of. any motivation to fight this by the Nigerian government. Kind of the hesitancy on the side of the American government under President Biden, at least even to list Nigeria as a country of particular concern when it comes to religious persecution.
I know you have your finger kind of on the pulse of this problem in Nigeria. Does this number surprise you like it surprised me? I look look, I mean, if you've been listening to Breakpoint or a podcast or been a part of whatever. you know, for the last 10 years that we've been talking about this, and I was surprised by this number. I mean, I used to refer people all the time to the the group Icon, which is one of the groups that tracks this sort of stuff.
And they for a long time, and I haven't been on their site in a while, but I'm assuming that that calendar uh is still there, which kind of tracks these things. And, you know, I The scale of this is crazy. 7,000 in 2025 alone. It's just amazing. We've talked here recently about You know, one of the realities is is that these radical Islamist groups that for you know a 10 to 12 14 15 year period of time had some Made made made made a a whole lot of trouble on the International stage are now kind of pushed back, and they're pushed back into these regional areas.
And that this is Islam, this is radical Islam being radical Islam. And to dismiss it as a tribal dispute or a land dispute. Is missing the headline. And but look, the other part of this that's surprising is. How can it get this bad and the Western media still be so quiet about it?
And there would be outrage, I think, in a lot of other situations that we have seen.
So, yeah, I mean, listen, we need our prayers directed that way. We need to continue to care about it. We need to continue to ask our president, our official leaders, State Department, and others to step in any way that they can. This is an all-out slaughter. And as Christians, we should care what's happening with our brothers and sisters.
Why is the media here so quiet about it? Is this a worldview issue? I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's things we don't pay attention to. Nigeria is an enormous country.
It's got an enormous population, fourth most populated country on the planet.
So there's a lot of things about this that don't make sense. Yeah. Well, we'll continue praying. Let's take a quick break, John. We'll be right back with more Breakpoint this week.
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The film premieres globally September the 5th. Sign up for updates at truthrising.com slash Colson. That's truthrising.com slash Colson. We're back on breakpoint this week. John, I want to talk now about there was an episode of the Daily podcast from the New York Times that you sent me earlier in the week, and we kind of teased this in the last segment.
This was about the, they characterized it as a mass exodus of parents and families from the American public school system. into schooling alternatives. Private education, homeschooling, co-ops. Catholic, Christian, non-religious, micro-schools, it really ran the gamut. These reporters set out to kind of talk about what is the impact of this exodus.
On the public school system, and there were some obvious ideological motivations behind their reporting and in the way they reported it. It was a fascinating episode to me. I was happy to hear them reckon with this reality and also really happy to hear about, I mean, just the explosion in school choice. I know what's going on here in Ohio, and we've had a great few years. We have more we can do and more we're working towards.
But there's I think eighteen other states now have some form of voucher program where families get to keep more of their tax money and send their kids to the schools of their choice. This was a fascinating podcast. I want to hear your thoughts on it.
Well, my fundamental. Thought. My most important thought is something we've said a lot, which is this is a golden opportunity. Perhaps the most robust, incredible opportunity for Christian education in our lifetime. And because it really required That the tyrannical status quo, you know, that it's this way and no other way.
And by the way, you heard that assumption smuggled in. You know, part of the incredulity of those in this podcast talking about this mass exodus was that it could possibly have happened. You know, when the clear, you know, only real choice, and there's a sense that. You know, that the norm is state-run education in this way, and the Department of Ed, and the Department of Ed running it this particular way. We were having this conversation within.
Our editorial meeting this week, and one of our new team members who has spent a long time. Working in education policy, you know, just said they've got this backwards, you know, really. This thing that they are considered to be the given That they're so shocked that parents are no longer wanting or choosing, that parents are now choosing against. That's the innovation. That's like 70, 80, 90 years old.
And locally controlled education with high parental involvement, even the way the public education system was done prior to this was completely different. But it is amazing that there was a stranglehold on the educational process. There was a stranglehold, certainly, on the funding. But I remember, you know, again, going back to that time when Dr. Dobson was honored by these various homeschool leaders, you know, they were also pointing to the fact, like, you know, this was in the day when he was willing to get on the radio and say, this is an option and you could do it.
That parents were still getting arrested, you know, for trying this in certain states. When you just think about how much we have gone, how far we have moved from this stranglehold. That the state has had, the federal government has had on education across the board. To now that many parents are choosing it. Wasn't it interesting, too, that this doesn't fall along party lines, that there was an acknowledgement, for example, of many ethnic minorities.
In certain areas that would, you know, considered, you know, to be, you know, progressive, democratic in their voting. But when it comes to school choice, they're all on board. And across class, too. And across class.
Well, definitely across class. I mean, when you talk about the victims of the stranglehold, it's been primarily those that were trapped in failing schools. And, you know, we're not even talking about. You know, the ideas and the prioritization of, you know, hypersexualizing young kids. that that has taken over kind of curricular stuff.
I mean, we're just talking about just being in a bad school. When Chuck Colson passed away in 2012, he had completely become alarmed and he was ready to start a campaign on education. And Chuck did campaigns. I mean, he would find I mean he was he kind of still thought in those political ways and he wanted to go tackle it and bring in a coalition and do all that. And that was one of them.
And it was because of a documentary called Waiting for Superman. Which I, you know, basically, I don't think a lot of people saw, but basically, just described a kid just hoping by chance. that the lottery would fall on her and she could escape this failed system. And instead she didn't, and the disappointment, and he just knew that that just wasn't fair. you know that that you would do this but it it there there has been such a stranglehold And that's one of the things that stood out to me.
The other thing, I mean, there's still just parts of it where you just want to shake your head and go. You know, so some of the choice programs and the voucher programs, and particularly the kind of the reimbursement of resources and, you know, just the incredulity. Like, can you believe? Can you believe? that parents would buy a trampoline and then submit it as if that were a PE class.
And I'm like, We have an epidemic of childhood and teenage obesity. Like, are we choosing? I mean, it's just, or that you would, you know, submit, you would think it's okay for teachers to submit reimbursements for these. Ever-changing LGBTQIA flags that they hang up in their class, you know, it's just that was my difference here was just like, all right, if you're looking for crazy niche stories of like suspected fraud, do your school next. Like, I would love to hear the titles of the last 50 people your school district hired.
What are, what were they, what are they hired to do? And what, what do they do? What's their title? Tell me that. Yeah, this I came away from this podcast, like, I mean, really encouraged again, just to hear, like, okay, we've got to reckon with it because it is happening everywhere.
This exodus is happening. And like you said, Across class lines, across ethnic lines, across religious lines, it is just straight up happening. That is a positive sign to me. But I also came away from it just thinking, man, we deserve a better reporting class in this country. Like, it is, they talk about these movements.
As if they're talking about aliens from an alien planet that they could not possibly understand. I mean, at the end of the show. Their suggestion was that, I mean, I don't even know if it was a suggestion, they said it. This is not because, you know, there exist these criticisms of public schools that they're not academically rigorous. And I kept waiting for them to bring up the National Rapport Card, which they never did.
They mentioned something about test scores and, you know, literacy is down, whatever. But they never got into the specifics which seem extraordinarily relevant to this discussion to me. But they said, yeah, there's there are these criticisms about the academic rigor of public schools. But really when you talk to most parents who are advocating for school choice, this is they call it an issue of parental rights.
So, what these journalists in this podcast were doing was setting up a dichotomy. There's something called parental rights over here, and then there's academic rigor and like worrying about your child's education over here. And they viewed them as completely separate. Because I think at one point, one of them said, Yeah, so this is really forcing us to reckon with like, do we think education is about making parents happy or about educating kids? And it was this weird, like, very, very strange dichotomy.
Like, why do you think? Parents want to have a choice and feel like they should. I mean, is that not the most bizarre like dichotomy? Yeah, I mean every once in a while you get the quiet part said out loud. And I think that as we talk about this relaxation of the stranglehold of the status quo on education, there's been chapters of this where the quiet part was said out loud, right?
I think one of those, a big one in recent years, and it was in response to COVID, it was in response to some of these school boards, is that people actually said out loud, oh no, parents, you don't have a right. Oh no, these kids don't belong to you. Oh, you're actually in the way. And they, and this was either said out loud, you know, by folks like the head of the teachers union and so on, or it was, you know, lived out, particularly with, and apparently in Loudoun County. I thought it was interesting.
We talked last week about Fairfax County and the secretive abortions. And then just this week, there was another story out of Loudoun County, which is where all the school board trouble happened. Where three teenage boys expressed concern, and maybe they didn't do it all in the nicest way of. Of a trans girl in their locker room and asked why, and said that they were uncomfortable, they were suspended and accused of sexual harassment.
So when you start doing this math and you start realizing that's one of the things I think that that has relaxed that that that that stranglehold and that has made this opportunity, the fact that it's across party lines. is a big one. Listen, the political steps that have been made Uh to create political uh pathways for choice. This would have never happened. before that.
Schools, alternative schools, finding answers for lower income and impoverished families. If we don't solve that problem, and that problem still needs to be solved. but we're way down the line on it than where we were 10 or 15 years ago. Then that relaxes the stranglehold. But I do want to say this because we could spend the whole time just going, Can you?
I mean, the way they were talking about it is all you need to know. And you're exactly right. You just realize we're not seeing the same world. They see this, we see this. We're not seeing, you know, they're seeing apples, we're seeing oranges, it's not even on the same page.
But I want to point out something else, which is that this is an opportunity. And I want to ask the question, are we ready for the opportunity? It's kind of like You know, this whole thing about, oh, we have a vibe shift. Everyone talks about the political vibe shift in America, and that the political vibe shift is a cultural vibe shift. And okay, fun.
We've pushed back. On, for example, the radical transgender agenda, especially as it's aimed at children. That's good. But rejecting what's wrong is not the same thing as accepting what's right. Right.
And I think we're the same the same thing is possible here. There is an opportunity here that we haven't seen. The question is, are we ready for it? Are our schools ready for it? Are our education innovations, are our qualities, the quality of our Christian schools, are they worth it?
And I think the answer in many places is yes. And I think the answer in many places is no. It is not success that your schools are filled right now. Because you didn't do it. You know who filled it?
Loudon County School Board filled it, and podcasts like this. That's what that this is the best marketing you could possibly have. Success is what happens to kids when they're there. Success is how parents are treated when they're there. Otherwise you know what they're gonna do?
They're gonna choose something else again. And I think there is an incredible opportunity. A plethora of resources, and it needs to be done from every direction. You need educational professionals to come up with these innovations. You need certainly lawmakers and legislators to come up with these innovations and support the other innovations.
And we need to be really clear on what we're for. when it comes to Christian education, not just what we're against. It's clear everyone's joining us now. Like, I'm not gonna say everyone, but a lot of people are joining for us. By the way, here's the other, here's the other kind of moment where I thought, oh, here's a here.
This is something that's going to make a difference. is when you had these public officials. coming out and saying, oh no, you need to choose public education because it's your duty. It's your duty as a citizen. You know, otherwise you're being racist.
When you hear that level of argument, not arguing like, you know, we actually have good schools, but if you don't do it, then you're not, you know, you're oppressing the underclass. And by the way, many of them sent their own kids to private school, right? Yeah. Also, algebra is also racist.
So send your kids to public school. But we might not teach them. math or reading. Yes, I completely agree with what you're saying about opportunity, and I gotta be a hype man here for my husband in just a second. I think I would say every kid that leaves the public school system for a Christian school.
That is already a success. It's not the full story, but just getting because of how far it's gone. I mean, you mentioned the girl and the boys. I mean, Getting a kid out of there right now, I count that as a success. If there's a school there to welcome them, that is a success.
Getting kids out of it is a success. You know, one of the opportunities here, and I've seen this in Ohio, is for schools not just to champion. You know, a Christian worldview, but to be the schools that can say, look, we are teaching kids to read. Our graduates are literate. Our graduates are getting into college.
Our graduates are finding vocations. Our graduates can do math. Like that is already. a step above where our public schools are sending kids. And just to mention what Aaron's doing.
So Aaron started a couple of years ago as part of the Center for Christian Virtue, the Family Policy Council here in Ohio that he runs. He started the Ohio Christian Education Network. And their big, big push these past couple of years has been Helping churches who already have one of the biggest barriers to starting a school, which is facilities. Have churches that have facilities, have Sunday school classrooms, have buildings that are, you know, for the most part empty six days a week. Helping them to start their own schools.
This requires a lot of legal help and expertise. We want these to be academically rigorous and safe and incredibly competitive schools. But they just keep opening schools. I mean, he opened another one this week for this year. This is, we're seeing Christian, you know, teachers, and administrators, and principals, and parents.
Who are saying they want this and are willing to do it. Oftentimes, these teachers and administrators are paid less doing this than they would in another school. And in another academic opportunity. And it's been such a sweet and incredible thing to watch not only these schools open and grow, but then what happens almost every time is the churches grow because now the families are going to this school five days a week and meeting other families and seeing how wonderful this opportunity is in this environment. And then the churches grow.
It just feels like a win all the way around. You know, look, I'll say it's absolutely improvement whenever a a student leaves, but we're not at the point on excellence yet. And with training, there's some pieces that are missing in the puzzle. The opportunity was one of them. It was the biggest piece that was missing in the puzzle.
The openness of churches to get behind this was a big piece that was missing in the puzzle. And we're in a way better situation than we were. Praise God on that, that people see it. What we're missing right now is a lot of Christian colleges who are willing to see it as a good thing. when their graduates go teach at Christian schools.
Instead, what you have is a bunch of Christian colleges, even conservative ones. who have basically embraced somehow the idea that it's better if it's it's it's like a missionary thing if their teachers go to public schools and that's the measure of their program success. And so, what happens then is that they're taken over by the accreditation standards of the state at that point. And there are many otherwise wonderful Christian colleges where the education departments are pretty secular. uh hold really um non-Christian views in terms of sexuality.
emotional and social learning and some of these other things. And at some level, we one of the missing pieces to this long term puzzle Is being able to find educators who are not just personally Christian. You can find that, and that's wonderful. But who understands why a Christian education is fundamentally different? This is something that we've been working on at the Coulson Center.
with our educators project because otherwise It's what a bunch of headmasters have told me. We don't know where to hire teachers. And I hope that, and by the way, I know that there are some places, but they're so few and far between and regional and so on. You got to figure out how to do the teacher training piece. We're trying to help with that.
But we need some Christian colleges that see actually this as a good thing. And so there are a number of missing pieces. Again, one of the missing pieces has been to making it available. uh uh uh the uh um lower income families. And people in certain communities making it more the geographic solution that you just described from CCV is a great example of this.
This is something that. is happening in a lot of different states right now, trying to leverage these facilities. And so on.
So that's that's absolutely a good thing. I think also, too, by the way, I just want to be really clear: none of this is to say that we should not have Christian teachers in public schools. Who are willing and trying to make a difference. And I also think that we have seen cracks in the system that were already there, but we just never exploited. And I'm thinking specifically of release time programs.
I mean, I just, you know, I had the privilege of. Talking to a couple folks who were involved in this. Both locally here in Colorado, but also one of the big national organizations, LifeWise Academy, which is doing this all over the place. And the growth is absolutely explosive. And it's really remarkable.
I mean, let's do as much of that as possible. As we can. And but it's an example of we needed it all at all fronts. And we got to be ready when it it it comes. And um And right now, there are some great examples of Christian schools and homeschool.
Resources. There's so many more resources for families now. There's hybrid options that you can put together. There's ways that you can leverage a multitude of different resources, including state resources, in order to advance this. But the fundamental question is is who do kids belong to?
And kids don't belong to the state. And that is something that is being. shaken up and it's good to know that. I just want to say to you, I don't think it's an accident. I think you would agree that The ideology that has Crept into public schooling with regards to sexuality, which is the most prominent issue, but certainly others as well: critical race theory and all that.
Is not disconnected from the poor academic outcomes that we continue to see. And I thought it was really unfortunate. Recently, a person writing over at Christianity Today was likening the school choice movement of now to kind of people's opposition to desegregating schools in the civil rights era. She was saying there's just so much, it's all fear-mongering. There's fear-based that parents are told that your kids are learning about gender ideology and kindergarten or whatever.
And I think she acknowledged that that is certainly happening in some cases. And I would say one classroom is one too many. For that, but it is not disconnected from the, again, the poor academic outcomes. When I say that I, I think a Christian education is valuable because it's a Christian education. It's not because I'm thinking that my kids are going to school and learning about the Old Testament for the first half of the day or every day, whatever it is, or going to chapel and praying together.
I value all of those things, but they're also learning that at home and from their church family. And I appreciate and love that it's getting reinforced at school. But it is important to me that they're learning about. Physics and chemistry and mathematics and English in a way that makes sense and that reflects the real world. I do not have any confidence that a school that would suggest a boy can become a girl is teaching anything that's true or reasonable.
Outside of the ideology and the weird books they read, kindergartners and all that. It is connected because of how important worldview is, right? If you don't think anything's real, then how do I know you're teaching science to my kids in a way that makes sense, or you're teaching health and biology in a way that makes sense? That's why a Christian education is important to me, and I think should be important to everybody. John, let's take another quick break.
We'll be right back with more Breakpoint this week in just a moment. Hi, John Stone Street here from the Colson Center. If you've ever taken a close look at a really old church building, most of the time you can find a cornerstone. A lot of times, the cornerstone will bear the names of the founders who built the church, not just to last during their time, but for generations to come. If the ministry of the Colson Center is making a lasting impact in your life, and if it's going to continue to make a lasting impact for the kingdom of God, we have to have that same kind of strong foundation.
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So please join us, laying a strong foundation for the future by becoming a cornerstone monthly partner of the Colson Center. Visit us at colsoncenter.org slash monthly. That's colsoncenter.org slash monthly. We're back on breakpoint this week. John, you and I have been kind of watching this from afar, but I want to talk with you about what's going on in the UK.
Something called the Bible Society is suggesting that there is what they're calling a quiet revival. Happening in the United Kingdom right now, that people are returning to Christianity. After a season of declining membership, and I'm just kind of falling out of cultural favor there as well. Is this happening there? You know, we've talked about Justin Briarly before and his podcast and his book about this.
Has really revealed some very high-profile conversions, I would say, to Christianity in the UK. Is this happening on a big scale there, and what can we attribute it? to and do you think it could be happening here as well?
Well, I think that something's happening and that's what the Bible Society report uh you know uh described. It got a lot of critique that it was you know drawing conclusions were uh that were premature, that Its findings didn't match up with the findings of other religious bodies that were showing still an overall decline or.
Something like that. One of the things that's fascinating is There are just reports of not only churches in in the UK that are attracting an awful lot of young people. But that it is A heavy Dose of them are men. And also, that it's not the progressive churches. It's not the mainline churches.
The Church of England, for example, is pretty divided. Between those that still believe in the gospel and those that don't, those that have capitulated to sexual. uh nude sexual norms and those who haven't and The ones that are, you know, where the reports are coming that there seems to be the most growth among young people. Are those that are the conservative ones, conservative theologically, conservative socially, conservative morally? I'm going to ask Justin Brierly about this.
We've got interviews set up, and we'll do a bonus episode of the podcast. But you know To talk about this because it goes back and forth. It's not just this study by the Bible Society. There was an article this week by James Marriott and the Times. Of London, full-fat faith, the young Christian converts filling our churches.
Uh he certainly thinks there's something happening. That there are churches that would have had 50 or 60 a decade or so ago, and now has several hundred, and you can see that. That um even in the evangelical churches or the less kind of traditional ones. Certainly the conservative sacred ones are the ones. The traditional ones seem to be attracting, but among the evangelical churches, it's those that are more morally conservative.
He talks too, and we mentioned this that This is true among Catholic churches as well. 500 adult converts. Last Easter in the Catholic Diocese of Westminster in London. I mean, that's a pretty specific group. Right there.
Um the Catholic Church in France uh baptized 18 Thousand adults and adolescents across the country there on Easter. You know, we've talked about the decline in church attendance in the U.S. leveling off. He talks about that as well. And then all of this is happening at the same time as you have, you know, the Richard Dawkins of the world who told us.
Yesterday, that God is a delusion and religion poisons everything, saying that we need, you know. To be a Christian nation, or we need to do the West needs to be Christian and that he's culturally Christian and. And that the Christian traditions even matter, and things like that. And he's just one of the many voices talking about this. Yes, something is happening, and I think it can be chalked up to a Several things.
It's probably not one thing, it's a whole lot of things, but The the um The Holy Spirit doesn't stop moving. Just because we feel like we're on the kind of wrong side of history, or we're told we're on the wrong side of history. You know, and it's not just kind of the higher-profile converts. There's something absolutely happening. And it's going to be interesting to see.
I think at the very least. We should recognize the opportunity and then lean in and say, you know, that old question that. Comes from Henry Blackaby and the Experience in God Study. Where's God at work and how can I join him? I think that's a really good question.
If we see God at work among young people, let's go invest in young people and see if we can't be a voice. I I don't want to also underestimate something else, which is The the human experience is common. over time and place. not with technology. not with social structure, not with levels of freedom.
but with the kind of questions that humans ask, the existential questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? What's right and wrong? What happens when I die?
What's the meaning of life? Why do I Uh have this Sense that m you know, that that there's that uh in the universe that there's something beyond what I can see. And there's not a whole lot of places people can get those answers. But that doesn't mean the question stopped. You know, you can be distracted only so far.
It Pascal called it the God-shaped hole. And we've tried to fill it with stuff. I think you're going to see a rise at the same time of religion and traditional faith. You're also going to see a rise in paganism. You're going to see a rise in experimentation.
You know, as the world re-enchants, as Rod Rayer and some others are talking about. You're going to see all of that, but all that points to the kind of creatures we are. And When you can Walk somebody through that, not just when they say, man, I've got these questions. I can't find answers. You know, a great response is: why do you think you have those questions?
What does that tell you about yourself? What does that tell you about the universe? What does that tell you about the kind of world we live in? That we're meaning-making machines, you know, that that's what we try to do. What's that reveal?
And so the opportunity I think is great. And I think that the. There's a good bit of exhaustion with the alternatives. And for young men, I think, you know. When it's only so long before you're told, well, your problem is that you're men and you're young men, and your problem is that you're young men.
And that's why, you know. You start looking for other things. And some of those things are going to be good, and some of those things are going to be bad. And we're seeing a rise on both of those things. I was listening to a podcast this week by a man who would call himself an atheist, and he's.
Certainly acts like That He was telling a personal story about going to an event at the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville. And, you know, he heard all these people. He was like, I was surprised how many people, how many artists referenced Jesus. And this one artist in particular kind of told this, what we in the Christian biz would call a testimony. But he was like he told the story about how he had struggled with addiction and then he met Jesus and He entered recovery, and I found myself, you know, whenever I hear things like this at first, I just kind of, you know, I don't like these kind of sappy religious stories, and I was kind of ready to tune it out.
But then it, I had to really reckon with the fact that. Christianity had worked for this person. That was the way this podcast host put it. It worked for him. Like it actually really helped him recover.
And I don't want to stomp on that, you know. And this podcast host has talked about his own addiction recovery before. And I've found myself listening thinking, but why do you think it worked? And and I mean I You know, why did it work for him? And then the podcast host kind of went on to say, but like, I think he would say Buddhism works too.
And I found, I wanted to put that question to you, John. If something. Works for somebody. Like in a Richard Dawkins kind of worldview, that cultural Christianity is good because it tends to produce. Peaceful people and people flourish more when they follow those things.
And your natural question then to them is: why do you think it works according to those metrics? You know, I don't think you believe anything because it has necessarily because it has those utilitarian outcomes. But a lot of the same people would say Buddhism works too.
Well, it works for what? I mean, Buddhism didn't work to spark the scientific revolution. You know what did work for that? Christianity. Because, in other words, you have to ask for what?
And then. And I think this points to a really important thing as we see This kind of rising of interest in spiritual things and maybe the quiet revival, it is going to be. You know, as the parable that Jesus told said, the wheat's going to grow with the tares, and you've got to figure out how to handle that. And I think there's a whole lot of people that are super quick to be condemning. They're super quick to be cynical and skeptical.
You know, we saw that in reaction to the president's comments this week. And the president's comments were wrong. They were theologically bad. But I mean, how should we respond to that? Should we?
you know, basically mock him. You know, I Or should we actually say, you know what's true? Let me help you know what's true. In just a couple of weeks, we're going to release in partnership with focus on the family and And AusGen is this Truth Rising project. And one of the courageous voices in the stories that are told is Chloe Cole.
Chloe, of course, was completely convinced she was born into the wrong body. She believed some of the worst ideas. that have made victims of so many young people. She had a double mastectomy at age 16. And I remember the first time I was at an event with Chloe.
And she won't remember this. I was there and and and And And there was this sense like Like Yeah, she has changed her mind about this lie. But man, she is on a journey. She is searching. She is looking.
and at the time she would say things That you know, did not point to God ultimately. But it was coming to grips with who she really was that pointed her to what's true about God. It's one of the remarkable stories. And now she's so committed that people other people know what's true. not only about who they are, but also about God.
Let the Holy Spirit do his work.
Now, I'm not saying we should, you know, let people get off the hook for bad theology. I do think or anything like that. You know, we need a little bit of patience when somebody comes around and rejects secularism and this says something, you know, kind of goofy about religion. And now at the same time, there comes a point. where it becomes really obvious.
and what becomes really obvious is whether or not they're ready to bow their knee or not. whether or not they're willing to acknowledge who is God and who is not. But I don't know.
Sorry, that was a rabbit trail at some things I've been thinking about lately, but your question about. You know, why does it work?
Well, you know. Buddhism, you know, points you to things beyond The the world That there are things in the world beyond what we can see.
Well, we agree with that. We just don't agree with. All you know, what those things are or why they exist. Buddhism doesn't work, you know, for building bridges. You know what works for building bridges?
Secularism. You know why? Because we both agree that math exists. You know what doesn't work for building bridges? Wokeism.
Well, yeah, when you reject the physical world in the name of secular.
So, in other words, that's why we talk about Christianity being true. And why there is an opportunity for truth rising right now, just because. What we're seeing is the exhaustion of these other world views. who just ran out of gas and You know, secularism helped us make build awesome bridges, but it didn't answer the question about the meaning and purpose of life. And those are the bigger questions even than how do I build this bridge?
And I think the whole, this is the brilliance of Christian truth and the call of Christians. Dorothy Sayre said that A lot of Christians talk about Religion as if it only has to do with the 10% of their life that's their own personal and private choice, and what meant. What was good for them? But there's this whole other 90% of life. And she's like, that's why it was failing in her day, is because.
Christians were giving the impression to people that their faith had nothing to do with 90% of their life. What rational person has any interest in that?
So I think the call for us is really clear. We've seen the exhaustion of other worldviews and the opportunity for Christians is there. But we got to know what's true and we got to embrace what's true, not just point out, like, oh, yeah, you're wrong, and we know you're wrong, and now you know you're wrong. but what's the better way that we're going to propose?
Well, John, let's get to some of the questions that we have this week because some of them relate to this very thing, you know, just about what's true. What's good? What is Christianity?
So for example, you and Thaddeus Williams shared a really helpful commentary this week. about Penal substitutionary atonement, which you mentioned in the first segment, because there had been a little dust up online about whether God actually punished Jesus on the cross in our place. I recommend our listeners go back and listen to that commentary. If you haven't, But we did receive a couple comments on that and one of them Was asking us to mention that John Mark Comer, kind of the writer and pastor who had originally. I think he praised a book that was questioning penal substitutionary atonement.
I guess he came out and apologized for his comments. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to. To talk about that, if you wanted to. Yeah, I wanted to mention this comment for two reasons. Number one is, we were going to mention that John Mark Comer had.
Had backed off and apologized for some of the ways he said things. And it was a kind of sloppy way he said things. And so I really appreciate that. He's a brilliant guy. He's a brilliant guy in culture.
I've been reading his stuff for a long time, and I think he is really, really helpful on a lot of ways. But in a lot of ways. I also wanted to bring this up because penal substitutionary trauma is a really important topic, and there is a way in which it has been. kind of isolated as the only way to understand the cross since the Reformation. And some are pushing back on that.
But by pushing back on that, oftentimes you get the impression that they're rejecting penal substitutionary atonement. And the cross isn't just about penal substitutionary atonement, but it's not less than that. You know, there is the wrath of God that Jesus is the one who takes upon himself. He was bruised for our transgressions. He was wounded for our iniquities.
The punishment that brings us peace is upon him. By his stripes, we are healed. There's something real happening there.
Now. There's also more than that. There's the view that through suffering, Christ becomes. The Victor, the Christus Victor view and so on. And these are really important and interesting conversations and a great application of that old line.
Where Children can wade and elephants can swim. That's the waters of the cross, which is really, really wonderful. And so sometimes these nerdy theological topics and these big phrases like penal substitutionary atonement are intimidating or they're like, well, that's boring or I just want Jesus. And they're really, really important. And that's why we talked about it.
This specific comment And I don't want to read it, it's like you're setting Comer up as the bad guy through your links to X. And I just thought that was unfair. I thought that's an unfair statement. We didn't even address Comer as a bad guy. We said, he said this.
And then we went on to talk about penal substitutionary atonement and specifically the book.
Some people did make Pastor Comer out to be the bad guy, and they talked about him in slanderous ways. I don't think that that was necessary or helpful and we don't try to do that. And I think, but we have to really address the issues. And when we lose sight of that, Either by not addressing the issues at all, because we never want to say anything. Or by doing personal attacks.
We're at a point right now where we need clarity, and to have that sort of clarity. We need to get down to business. I don't think we did that. We were going to mention that he had backed off of that original tweet. He wasn't the one who wrote the book.
And Thaddeus Williams' commentary on what penal substitutionary atonement is. What the common critiques are to it, and why it actually matters was absolutely a masterclass. In theology, in three and a half or four minutes.
So go back and check it out. I think it's really, really helpful.
Well, we got another comment as well asking us to clarify our comments about the starvation in Gaza. You mentioned a couple of news stories last week. Pointing people to in your recommendations where they could learn more about the situation. And a person wrote in, I think a few people wrote in and suggested that maybe the news was not unbiased and that maybe this isn't happening, at least not at that scale in Gaza. This is obviously very politically and ideologically loaded for a lot of people.
We know that a lot of the news coming out of Gaza is mediated really by Hamas. I mean, that's just not up for debate. It's just happening.
So it is hard to know exactly what's happening on the ground there. But I wanted to give you a chance to respond to that criticism that maybe this is not happening. Yeah, well, I mean, those are two different things. The first is the thing, and that some said that the reporting on this is biased. Absolutely, the reporting on this is biased.
There's no question about it. It is all kinds of reporting on this is biased. What's really happening on the ground? Who's ultimately responsible? For the starvation that was taking place there.
And by the way, that's been largely mitigated by and large because it was pointed out. And that bias was what was described in detail in the article that I recommended. By Christianity, that was in Christianity Today by Jill Nelson.
Now, some people said, well, It was kind of a poison the well. Like you can't. Take anything good from this because it came from Christianity Today, and Christianity Today can't be trusted anymore. I didn't recommend Christianity today. I recommended this article by Jill Nelson, which was really good and really articulated what was happening on the ground with eyewitnesses on the ground and people who shared the same bias, the same perspective on Hamas's role in this that some of our critics did.
So you have to be open to hearing it. To say that there's biased reporting on this is not the same thing as saying starvation is not happening. And what I really wanted to respond to was the comment, yesterday you mentioned the starvation in Gaza. This is not true. What is not true was that some of the examples, some of the images of children that were held up.
by Palestinians of uh of starvation were also suffering from other conditions. And that led to some of the ways that they were looking emaciated. and so on. Pro-Israel news sources. pro-Palestinian news sources.
No one was really doubting. or questioning the fact that there was starvation happening on the ground right then. And that there had been, and that it was approaching serious, serious levels, both in terms of the cost of food and all of that sort of stuff. In other words, there was bias in the reporting. But to say that starvation was not happening, that in and of itself is not true.
It was. why it was happening. Jill did a wonderful job talking about the various aspects of that while still admitting. Interviewing, by the way. On the ground, folks, and letting them tell the story, including folks from Samaritans Perth.
That was very helpful and that's why I pointed to that article.
Okay, thanks, John. We have one more really quick Comment, and then there were some other really great questions that we will set aside and promise to get to next week, but this one really quickly. A person wrote in after you and I had talked about the Ross Dathett interview with the founder of ORCID. This was about genetically screening for the quote-unquote best embryos when you're using IVF. This person wrote, Today's Breakpoint podcast reminded me of the film Gattaca, which plays out the consequences of eugenics programs that allow parents to select certain characteristics and design their babies.
Have you seen it? I mean, listen, the reason I want to point it out, of course, I have. Of course, everyone has. And yes, I mean, What's crazy about this whole story is that while the scientific community runs full boar, many of them, into some of these really ethically compromised places, some of the most progressive Pro-abortion You know, ideologues in our world are in Hollywood. And Hollywood's been talking about the challenges of bioethics or the challenges of our biotechnologies.
You know, I mean, you can't get anything closer than that image of the island when they're destroying the pods where these babies are grown. I mean, the Matrix and artificial intelligence, Gattaca, obviously is one of them. There's all kinds of series about this.
Now, it's not, I mean, Gadaga is 25 years old. It's still a great example of this. I just, I thought it was a fun comment. And one of the reasons is, is because there's a dozen or more of these. It's like when you hear the headline, which I saw this week about in China, you know, building artificial wombs, I'm like, has no one seen a movie in the last 25 years?
Because literally it's all in the movies. They're warning us about this day in and day out.
So appreciate that comment. And the answer is yes. We used to have an old friend of Chuck's Roberto was on our editorial team. And I don't think. A week went by on our editorial meeting where he did not just simply say, This was just Gattaca.
This was all in Gatta. This was in Gattaca. And it's not just Gatta. I mean, there's, yeah, there's dozens of movies like this where it all predicted this before. Yeah, totally.
Okay, well, John, let's talk about recommendations this week. What do you have for us? My recommendation is a tremendous article, and it actually applies with the first question we answered about the John Mark Comer post and just the topic of penal substitutionary atonement and kind of how we. uh hoped and tried to to to handle that it was a really important topic but Uh some listeners will know there was another um Just dust up between, I say dust up, but there's a lot of bad blood between a handful of Christian leaders. And that there are really sides that have formed in the evangelical world.
I don't want to give. To deal with that. We don't do that. We don't. Name names in any sort of imprecatory way, you know, other than to say, hey, this is a tweet and here's who tweeted it.
Now let's talk about the topic and what that's our way of trying to be as. Father Shariko once said, ruthless with ideas, but gentle with people and respectful, you know, with people.
Okay. There were all kinds of lines crossed in this particular war this week. I don't care about any of those things. What I care about is. We need to know and be chastened in how to live in an age of deep political and religious and spiritual divide.
And David Bonson this week, who was a speaker at our Colson Center National Conference, wrote just, I thought a tremendous. a blog piece on that. Uh about uh I think rejecting quote unquote the serrated edge and what that means. And he directly addresses the parties that were involved in this. I just thought it was such a tremendously Thoughtful and well-written article, or I guess it was a post, a blog post.
And I just really appreciated it. And there's a level of clarity there and wisdom. That even if you don't care about the specifics of this particular fight that's happening and um Or you don't want to be involved, or you're choosing not to, which more people should choose not to on this one, trust me. The advice and the approach I thought was godly. and wise.
And so I just that's my recommendation. And we'll link to it if you come to the show notes. And the website where you can find this is his website, which is Bonson, B-A-H. In S E N Right, Bonsen. Dot com.
Awesome.
Well, sort of in that vein, I think my recommendation you could probably say is useful for any and all topics, but a friend. My friend Lisa recommended this to me this week, and I've just been chewing on it all week and really appreciate it. And it is a. Old-ish sermon. It's actually sermon series, two weeks of sermons from Alistair Bag about contentment.
And I've listened to it in the car taking the girls to school. I've already decided to re-listen to it. I think my friend Lisa said she's trying to memorize the sermon, but it. It's just incredibly helpful and encouraging and chastening. I like that word.
So look up Truth for Life in your podcast app and you can search for contentment and you'll find there's a part one and part two. This is a sermon from Alistair Bag. About Paul's instructions about learning to be content in all circumstances, and there's never a bad time to revisit. What it means to be content as a Christian.
So I will leave you all with that. Thank you so much for listening to Breakpoint This Week from the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview. I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street, president of the Coulson Center. We'll see you all back here next week.
