Missionary Monday

Welcome to Truth Talk Live. All right, let's talk. The truth is. I can't hide it. I can hold it.

A daily program powered by the Truth Network. This is kind of a great thing, and I'll tell you what. Where pop culture, current events, and theology all come together. Speak your mind. And now, here's today's Truth Talk Live host.

Stu Epperson. We have a great episode. Today we're going to be having a conversation. with my friend Tom. And I believe Tom is on the line.

Paul, please share with our listeners a little about your testimony. How the Lord saved you out of the Mormon Church and to Christ. Sure.

Well, good afternoon, everybody. My name is Tom Earnhardt, and I am sitting here as an ordained pastor and a former. Latter-day Saint. And so I will be as brief as I can because my testimony is pretty lengthy, but I grew up in a Latter-day Saint household. I was baptized and confirmed a member of the LDS Church when I was eight years old.

And I grew up uniquely in a single-parent household with my mother. Two younger brothers and myself. And we were a family that attended church every week. And through that, I did pretty much everything that was asked of me and required of me. I was ordained into the Aaronic priesthood.

Great, great.

So So continue with your testimony. You were in Utah, Growing that shirt, right? Yes, sir. And like myself, Yeah, go ahead, yep. Yeah, well I grew up in a um a single parent home.

In the LDS church, we attend a church every week. And uh did everything that was asked to be essentially. I was ordained into the Aaronic priesthood, which is essentially the LDS belief that requires younger men. ages twelve to mission age, which is eighteen now, I believe, You have to hold that to be able to serve in the church. But I answered several callings.

I was the Deacon Quorum's president. Teachers Quorum First Counselor. I spoke in sacrament meetings several times. I held leaderships in the Boy Scouts of America troupe that we had. And I mean, really, I didn't make a lot of waves, but my testimony started pretty early on.

I started to notice things in the church that troubled me. And it was not theological or historical in nature. It was about outward appearances.

So we were required to do all these things that ultimately seemed impossible for me to live up to. And there was this inward, deep shame and intense guilt. For like for messing up, not meeting the standards set by the church. And when I did have a question about something that didn't make sense, I often heard this phrase that is it's ours is not to question. And it signified to me that I was not I was not safe to analyze what I was seeing.

And there's a problem there. I'm a highly analytical person. I always have been.

So that was like difficult for me to swallow that. And then I was confused by the message. Yeah. Then there's this message that God absolutely loves everyone without question, without exception. except.

There was an exception clause always and it was this this, but you have to do these things. You have to measure up. And then to me, he also seems blind to certain things as well. Yeah. Mm.

Were you like me growing up in the LDS church where you had a CTR box, and then in that box you had a little Uh Card that said, Do I measure up? Did you ever have that? Or does that go back beyond? maybe your generation of when you were young in the that for me that would have been like in the ear mid seventies.

So that might be the back of the back of a number of years. Sure, if that was back a little farther, and I remember the coveted CTR ring, I always wanted one. Um and I'm not sure why I mean, it might have been a financial issue or something like that. I just never had a CTR ring, but early on, I used to see them and be. pretty intrigued.

Like what do I got to do to get my hands on one of those? But I never did have one. Right. We know a lot of our listeners that are in the Bible Belt right now, maybe in Virginia or in North Carolina, they might be hearing some. this term C T R box or C T R ring.

Would you ex Explain that. to our listeners. uh about what is a CTR box or CTR ring. Sure, so the C TR is a the phrase is a um the acronym is choose the right. And so there was even a song we used to sing called Choose the Right.

And if the listeners hear that, they can go Google that and hear what I'm talking about. But essentially, anytime you got yourself into a situation as a young man where maybe you shouldn't have been there with someone of the opposite sex, or you're thinking about stealing something, or you're thinking about cussing, or arguing with your parents. You know, you were to remind yourself of that song and then that phrase to just choose the right. It was all about an outward performance, an outward Kind of appearance, this facade that I ultimately started having a real hard time with growing up.

So. I remember the song. I think it went like choose the right way and be happy, something like that. Did it have those words in it? Yeah.

Yeah, happy all the day, I think. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Happiness. was a a big motif growing up, I remember asking questions too. And I remember the Sunday School teacher saying, Rusty, stop asking so many questions. And that just stuck with me as well.

So, you know, I couldn't understand it. I wasn't like the most superb Cub Scout. You know, I got up to the illustrious level of the bobcat, you know, and that was about as far as I went. Yeah, and so. All my other fr other guys and there were excelling, you know, they had the wolf and the bear and everything like that and So there was a sense of, you know, my parents weren't in the in the temple, they hadn't gone to the temple ceremonies and things, and so Where are we going to be so in your case with a single parent family?

Did were you kind of like, I wanna, I hope this wasn't the case, but did they kind of mistreat you like? Oh, Tom Yeah. Yeah. Parents aren't in the field in the temple, you know, or did you ever feel a little bit uneasy about that? Or did you get into that kind of uh understanding?

No, I had one of the most unique LDS wards that you could imagine growing up. I grew up in low-income housing. And the majority of the mothers were single mothers with young kids. And it was primary primarily LDS. And so there were no real father figures, hardly any father figures around to rear children in this ward.

And so there was a lot of single mothers with kids, and they brought in people who had already successfully raised their family. who were financially stable. and meant to be good role models.

So a lot of older couples And so our war consisted of, you know, young single mothers and these other families meant to kind of help rear us. And they were great people. I mean, I I learned a lot about life from them that I wouldn't have learned if they weren't there. And we were one of the first wards that I could think of back in the day that was a two hour ward.

So I got it. Hey, the music has just started. That just means we have to take a break. But stay with us, Tom, would you? Because we're going to talk about.

Reasons to reach Mormons for Christ in our next segment. And then we'll talk about life in Utah as a former Mormon. And we want to take your calls too.

So 866-348-7884, you can call in. We'll be right back here on Troop Talk Live. 866-348-7884. That's 866-348-7884 is the number you can call. If you're listening in Ohio or Virginia or North Carolina or Utah.

We want to welcome you to the program, to Truth Talk Live. I'm with my friend Tom. Today's Mission's Monday, and so we're just talking about the importance of. Sharing our faith and the power of the gospel, the true gospel. Because you know, Galatians chapter 1, the passage that I read right when I became a Christian, I got.

In 1979, and I went upstairs. And I broke out this Bible that my grandmother had given me, and I opened it up to this passage, and it says, Though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

So at that moment, I knew that something big happened to me when I got saved at Santa Rosa Bible Church. On that summer morning at church.

So we're going getting back to Tom's story. Tom, when did the gospel get presented to you? Was it through a friend? Was it um you know, a family member, something that you read in a book. How did that come about?

Well, years after leaving the LDS Church, I left when I was sixteen and I was raising my family and working hard and didn't realize how lost I was. I was actually scanning the radio station of all things. are the radio channels and um I stumbled upon the Calvary Satellite Network. And I was ready to change it because I didn't want to hear it. But the pastor that was preaching on the station was actually engaging.

and funny And I was almost immediately hooked on listening to him just preach the gospel. He was sharing from God's word. And uh I didn't surrender my life to Christ for a minute after that, for at least a year and a half, I would say, but I was hooked on what he had to say. And I almost became immediately a student of the scriptures myself.

So here I am. Super interested in the Bible, super interested in hearing the God's word being taught. Um It was, like I said, a year and a half probably after that.

Some circumstances happened in my life. I got hit by a semi-truck full of liquid butane and walked away unscathed. And just a lot of little amazing things like this that God was sending to pursue me. and I ended up surrendering my life to Christ with Pastor Chuck Smith, formerly of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on the radio in my work van by myself. And it was pretty powerful because my life immediately changed.

People saw it. 2 Corinthians 5, 17, all day, those who were in Christ were a new creation. That was me.

So Yeah, it was pretty impressive, so yeah. Praise God. Praise God. And now look at how the Lord has. opened up doors for you to be on this Christian Radio network.

Maybe someone's listening and they're driving down the road. They're in Utah, wherever they are, and they're hearing this powerful testimony. Today Now the Lord has Greg Laurie from that same ministry, basically, that same Kind of ministry that came out of ministry at the Church Calvary Chapel with Chuck Smith back there in Costa Mesa, California. That's exciting. And the Lord has led you to the Bridge Church in Centerville, Utah.

Do you want to just tell us a little bit about how the Lord has led you there and your role at the bridge? in Centerville, which I r that's where I met you when I had my Bible history museum stuff. in the lobby of your church and just got talking with you and I'm like I'm like We got to get Tom on the radio here. We got to have him share his story. But tell us about the ministry at the bridge.

Sure.

Well I got hooked up with the bridge actually through a dear friend. He passed away. He attended the bridge and I helped out with music for his memorial service. And like the rest is history. I got connected with the folks there, immediately started helping on the worship ministry.

But also, I was finishing seminary at the time, and there was an opportunity for me to serve on staff full-time. And so I gladly accepted that. I came on. to help with some church planting initiatives initially. And it kind of morphed into the role.

So I'm the associate pastor of worship and care there. But in that, like we have several opportunities to engage our LDS context. In fact, I'm working on a Doctor of Ministry, and my focus is going to be on the LDS context. Um Like, yeah, I do a lot. I wear a lot of hats there.

We interact with a lot of people.

So, it's a great ministry. Oh, praise God a lot. We were really blessed to be at the bridge just a couple of weeks ago. And there's just there there are so many more Good Bible-believing churches here in Utah than there were when my wife and I first moved here to Utah in 94. I don't know if you remember what it was like.

In the early 90s here in Utah, but there weren't as many churches. There were good ones here, but there weren't very many. And we're still a very small minority, but But God is good and he's bringing people out, you know, and we're just seeing him move and we're excited about. November 16th. when Greg Laurie will be here for an evangelistic outreach.

on the evening at Utah Valley University.

So that's coming up very soon. We also make a quick note: we have a Thanksgiving banquet on that same weekend on the 14th. Of November.

So the Harvest Crusade is on Sunday night the 16th. Our dinner is on Friday night the 14th. And if you'd like to attend, We'd love to have you go. If you can help contribute towards the cost of the dinner, great. Or, if you can't make, if you can't do that but you just want to go, just go to our website, UPS.

Yeah. C.org, the acronym for Utah Partnerships for Christ. And we will look forward to hearing from you. Let's maybe just talk a little bit more about How about let's let's dive into reasons To reach Mormons for Christ. And we want to hear from you if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The LDS Church, the Mormon Church. You can call us 866-348-7884. We'd love to have a noncontentious discussion with you even over the radio. Maybe you have questions that other people aren't ready to ask, but you want to ask, and you want to use your free agency and get some answers. Maybe we can help you today.

Or maybe you're a Christian who wants to be better equipped to reach Mormons for Christ. We've got just tons of resources, and I can do a Zoom call with you and share how the Lord saved me out of the Mormon church and just. Just basically be a an encouragement to you and be a kind of a little bit of a coach to you. But what's it like for you Tom, when you're thinking through reasons to reach the Mormons, Give us like maybe the top one or two or three reasons why we need to reach Mormons for Christ. Sure.

Well, I mean, the first one's an obvious. It's a no-brainer. Jesus loves Mormons. He loves Latter-day Saints a lot. And he died, like in the New Testament, when he says the alls and the whosoever's will be saved when they put their faith fully and completely in him.

That's everybody, including our Latter-day Saint friends. That is like the number one reason, coupled with the great commission to go. and to make disciples. And to baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to teach them to obey all that Jesus commanded.

So the That's like our marching orders. That's the first reason that we want to reach. LDS people. And the second, I would say, is uh similar to what drew me out of the LDS faith is uh A religious framework with Jesus nominally at the center. And I don't say this to bring offense, but he's nominally at the center and powerless.

to save you. And what I mean by that is I was always taught growing up that That Jesus Paid the price for us to work our way to heaven. I learned that in seminary, I learned that in Primary, I learned that in young men's, young women's. I heard that from the podium and in sacrament meetings. It does cause a little bit of a stir in some people to hear that.

But the reason that I think we need to reach LDS people. It's because the writer of Hebrews says that Christ is able to save you to the uttermost. That means fully and completely. And it's nothing to do with your works, as Paul says in Ephesians chapter 2. We are saved by grace through faith.

And that takes the pressure off of trying to have this external. It takes the internal shame and the guilt that you feel for not measuring up and not living up to. standards. It takes it in eradicates that Jesus died for that.

So that is I guess those that would be the two biggest reasons I see we need to reach LDS people. I'm sure there's a lot more, but Sure, sure, no, that's excellent. And I'm thinking too, just that just to compliment, add what you're talking about, is Our friends who are of this particular religion, they are ingrained upon them that a temple ceremony. Is so important in order to be with Heavenly Father when they die. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's in the Mormon faith, there's three degrees of glory.

And The lowest one is where the Holy Ghost will only visit you, and you'll never see the. Either Father or Jesus. We could talk about this some more when we come back.

So stay with us here on Truth Talk Live. If you want to ask a question, make a comment: 866-348-248. Don't touch that dial. We'll be right back. Truth Talk Live.

Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. This is Russ East, your host. Serving here in Utah.

So glad you're with us. I'm with my friend Tom. He was saved out of the Mormon church. You're wondering, what is that all about?

Well, Tom's been sharing how the Lord saved him, and he and I both. have experienced This this great exchange where We receive as a gift Jesus's perfect life. Here's is being the God man, he he took our sin on himself. He was the only one who could pay our penalty, our sin penalty. And what do we bring to him?

We don't clean ourselves up. We don't try to earn it. All we do is we receive it. Trust and a reliance upon that. It's a relationship issue here.

It's an acceptance. It's It's trust, it's faith. It's the essence of what faith is all about. Tom and I have both done that. at a young age.

And so here we are, we're just talking about Some reasons to reach out to your Mormon friends. And so if you'd like to call us 866-3666-6666-66 348-7884. We'd be glad. To encourage you, or maybe you're a Mormon and you're listening to this, and you're like, wait a minute, you guys, you guys are all wrong. You guys don't understand it.

Well, please call us, and we want to try to work this through together in a non-contentious way. I want to talk about something that maybe it's difficult to discuss with Mormons, but it's important for us Christians. To be aware of something. And I want to talk about.

Something that's very sacred to Mormons. And so we're not being flippant about this. We're not being disrespectful. there is a part of Mormonism that involves A certain type of article of clothing that you put on over a robe or a gown or a kind of a pants and shirt and different things, shawls and stuff. And it's green.

And you're wondering, what am I talking about?

Well, this green apron is is is embroidered with fig leaves on it. And you know The fig leaves that Adam and Eve war were to cover their sin. And so are you comfortable talking about this Um topic, Tom, about how Mormons really cling to this this concept of That the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing. This is one reason why we can reach Mormons because they have a doctrine that is completely foreign. To what?

Protestant evangelical Christians teach about the nature of sin. In the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Do you want to just talk about that a little bit?

Well, sure. I mean, it's ultimately, and God bless LDS people who are. Who are in and believing because you're trying, and I know that, but The reality is when you approach Jesus, And you try to add anything to what he did, which is full and complete for you on the cross. You are entering into a works plus or a Jesus plus salvation, a works-based salvation. And the writer Of Hebrews has a lot to say about it, but Galatians 2:23 is also fantastic because it says if we could attain righteousness by keeping any laws, then Christ died for no purpose.

And so yes, like we we look at we actually look at the the Garden of Eden and what happened in Genesis chapter 3 as a curse. And we see the effects of that All around us, we see sickness, we see sin, we see death, we see all kinds of things that are. not good. It was not a blessing. And in fact That is the very reason that Christ came into the world was to pay the penalty.

for that curse and That we add to it, and we gotta be fair to Adam and Eve too, when they sell. Um They made a grave error bringing sin into the world, but each and every person beyond that, we contribute. We can't just put the fault on them. Christ died for all of our sins so that we don't have to work to please him. Because when is enough enough, right?

In any framework, especially an LDS framework, when is enough enough. When have you gone to the temple enough? When have you baptized enough for the dead? When have you given enough money? When does that ever happen?

And it's a relentless. endless pursuit to leave so many hurt and empty. And Christ came to save you to the uttermost and fill you with his spirit to save you and to bring meaning to your life.

So I'm telling you, there's freedom in Christ that isn't religious bondage.

So Right, you know, growing up, like we were talking about earlier, we both grew up in the Mormon church. And we remember the stickers, it almost looked like a Ten Commandments, you know, and maybe it was on a big thing you would put together, and maybe you learn about them once a week or something. The Articles of Faith, the 13 Articles of Faith, and one of them is it says that we are not. We are not responsible for Adam's transgression, but for our own personal sins. And so, from a young age, I was taught that it was that that was something that We just, you put it out of your mind.

I mean, and there might be Mormons listening right now that might be putting this on a kind of a figurative or symbolic shelf. It's a concept that I think Mormons for a number of years have adopted, and it's the idea of. You just take these things that are troubling and you just kind of sleep them under the rug, but you call it a shelf. And I remember it was I think it was a former Mormon prophet's wife that use the term.

So it's a it's a Mormon term of putting things on a shelf. And just trying to like kinda have you ever heard that phrase before, Tom? growing up or have you heard that in discussion with Mormons? Yes? Sure, yeah.

In fact, I've spent some time working in the business world as well, and that was something that we used to say all the time. It's just like, we're going to take that idea, and we're going to put it on the shelf. And the meaning behind that is we're just never going to touch that again. It just stays on the shelf.

So, yes, I'm very familiar with that. Interesting. Yeah. Right. And so if you're trying to witness to, say, Mormon missionaries that come to your door, these young men and women, and they are as kind and sweet as they can be, and you want to share the gospel with them, Would you share with us, Tom, maybe a little bit about when Mormon missionaries want to come to our front door.

Yeah. talk with us about how we can be together with our families. And they're just, you know, these very uh bright, you know, you know, very just pleasant people. What would be one or two words of advice that you would give Uh those listening who are born-again Christians. to keep the conversation going and so forth, just share some of the thoughts that come to your mind.

Absolutely.

So number one, pray and then when you're done praying pray again. Number two, I would say be nice. They have surrendered two years of their lives to do something that they're very passionate about, most of them. And so ask them where they're from. Um get you know just just be inquisitive about them as a person because that's who they are.

They're people Number three, I would say set clear expectations and boundaries because increasingly the message is that we're all Christians. And so that begs the question.

So are all my creeds an abomination still? Number one. And number two, if we're all Christians, does that automatically make me a Latter-day Saint? Because they will say no to that. They want to baptize you to be a Latter-day Saint.

Those two questions actually are very fair to answer up front. I'm firm on making sure that we're on the we're on an honest platform before we move on. And then just ask a lot of questions. Ask a lot of questions, you know. Clarify what they mean.

If they say, you know, yeah, we believe we're saved by grace, then ask a million questions about that and don't let up on that until. you know until you have a a clear answer from them but Honestly, just be friendly. I mean, and ask a lot of questions. That's kind of the best way that I've. I've uh been able to interact with LDS missionaries myself, so.

Sure.

And you never know if it's better to maybe set a time. Maybe they come to your door and you're not quite ready for them.

So they have a they can schedule you in for another day. It might be better for you if you have them come back on Thursday at four o'clock rather than when they rang the doorbell, you know, and then even to have an agreed upon time limit that you're going to discuss things just because You know, you want to be respectful of their time, and you want to be respectful of your time, and you want to plant some seeds. You want to water some seeds of the gospel. And you don't have to do a four-hour stint. With the Mormon missionaries to make it meaningful.

I don't want to say that you can't ever do that because there might be a time for that, but I think. over living in Utah for a number of years and interacting with a lot of missionaries, Sometimes that one hour or less and then having multiple meetings and just using the phrase, I don't have a spirit of contention. Have you ever used that, Tom, when you're trying to convey that you love these people and that you don't want to make them think that You know, like I th there's a verse in the Book of Mormon that Uses that phrase, and it has to do with like Satan being influencing, influencing the environment of a conversation with one another and stuff. Have you ever heard that phrase, a spirit of contention? Do you want to talk about that for a minute?

Sure, I have heard that, but by and large, I don't experience that when I'm speaking with LDS folks. I'm in a unique situation because I am an ordained pastor. And then I'm also disaffected from the LDS Church by their standards.

So missionary conversations with me don't go beyond the first one. They're instructed not to talk to me very long. I definitely approach things different there. I'm not at liberty to have ongoing conversations, whereas many other evangelical on Bible-believing Christians. He continues said conversations with them.

But the spirit of contention is not something that comes up often in my experience. And so Um I think that uh I think that if you approach it, like I said, just relationally. Very friendly, inquisitive, those conversations will go a long way. I mean, we've heard of a lot of people making a lot of ground with the gospel by just preaching the gospel, sharing the gospel in a friendly, non-confrontational way.

So Right, well there is something called a bishop's court. that people who End up leaving the Mormon church, you don't have to go through it. But I have heard more than one person, many people, that i if they if they so choose uh They can go through a process where you go into a room and these men are pretty intimidating, and they pretty much tell you that you're being stripped of your priesthood blessings, and what a terrible thing this is for you to have. Put your faith in Jesus alone and to This Associate yourself with the Mormon church. I mean, that's just not the way it is with true Christianity.

I mean, I mean, there are so many good churches, you know, and they can have some different flavors to them. There are good Baptist churches and there's good Presbyterian churches and nondenominational churches and E V free and Alliance churches. There's just there's so many good ones out there. But in Mormonism, if you become a Mormon and you decide to leave it, That's really you're really Tinkering with something called outer darkness, I think. If you look at a book called Gospel Principles, about towards the end of the book.

And it's like being an apostate, right? one could argue whether or not that's going to put you in that place called outer darkness where it's even worse than the lowest degree of heaven. But hey, I I don't know. That that that's something that's not totally spelled out. I don't think in Mormon publications and things.

But but did you ever have you faced that living in Utah where, you know, people would ostracize you a bit? Or was it hard on a social level? to continue living in Utah, because I know some people have to end up leaving the state because it's it's pretty rough sometimes. Yeah, it's been difficult. There's been challenges.

My kids have experienced issues because of it, because of who their father is. And yeah, I've definitely felt that in Utah.

So. Yeah. Okay.

Well, we'll talk about this some more and we want to take your questions.

So call us. At 866-348-7884. That's 866-388-888-848-848. Three, four, eight. 7884.

One more time, 866. 348 7884. We want to talk with you. We want to answer your questions. We want to send you some resources.

Stay with us here on Truth Clock Live. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. We are going to continue our topic on Our love for the Mormon people, our desire to see them know for certain that they have eternal life, that they can know it, like it says in 1 John 5:13 through 15, that you can know that you have eternal life. For those who believe in the name of the Son of God.

We also find that in First Peter about having a place reserved in heaven for us who have Put our faith in Christ. And so, Tracy from Arizona, welcome to Truth Talk Live. Hi there. Thanks for taking my call. Hi.

Absolutely.

Yes. Tell me what's on your mind, Tracy. Uh, well, I've been listening to the station for, like, this past month. And I was really enjoying it. And I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And so I was really surprised when I heard this on here and You know, I was just wondering like I wonder why Um This program is on and that that you guys feel like you need to. Um say people who are members of a different church. Because I I've always wondered, like I've never seen where Jesus was like Hey, let's go. tell them that they're wrong and and that they, you know, we're worried about your salvation. Um I'm perfectly happy with my salvation here.

And I I just It makes me sad. Like I I just want us to And you say, you know, this is about love. But really, I feel like it's not about love. I feel like it's about Like saving people from There Um like that they just don't understand or they just don't know. My friend went to the bishop's court and said it was the most loving.

amazing experience of his life. you know, but it was for something like having an affair on his wife and that he the whole goal was to bring him back to Christ.

So I'm just listening and I'm just thinking about, you know, like Okay. the worship in our temple and the things that we we wear that are symbolic and and the beliefs that we have and You know, I can tell you that when I was a teenager, I did not have God in my life. And I was invited to go to the Um LDS Church and They were reading a scripture about a man who had Totally taken people away from Jesus Christ and said he really didn't exist. And how How He was forgiven. And I sat in that room and I said to God, myself, you know, if you are real.

And you can forgive him. Will you forgive me? And it was like pitcher of warm water just poured over my head and down to my feet. And that's when I accepted Christ into my life. And I've never went back and it was in that church that that happened to me.

you know, so I I I do know that that There are different places that people find Jesus Christ. And if it's in that church, then then Why is that wrong? And you a lot of people to just live their their Gospel of Jesus Christ the way they want to live it. And I love and respect you and your church and everything that you're doing. And I have more non-member friends than I have member friends.

And I do I feel bad that And I do know this happens. And it makes me so sad because I've seen it in my church where There are people persecuting people who are even members like And I think, oh gosh, that is not being like Jesus. And I feel like we just need to get a little bit of a test. I I think I understand what you're saying, Tracy, and let me just try to Share with you that I have no I think that's the only thing that I've been doing. whatsoever.

My my experience, my My feelings that I have about this particular situation is Such that That When I look at Jesus, I see him Talking to people like You know, various groups like the rich young ruler, or even the Pharisees, just looking at that group of people that. But he would he would def definitely Uh Way of trying to correct them, you know, and there were times when he was stern, he was. He was oftentimes very stern with them, but he was also direct. And he was direct with, like, say, the woman at the well.

So, there are times when Jesus even told Peter, he said, get behind me, Satan.

So, like a good doctor, you want a doctor to tell you the truth, but to do it with with grace and truth. We want to do it in love. We don't want to make it look like we're being arrogant or anything. But when we look at the words of like, say, a book like Gospel Principles, And it talks about the celestial degree of glory. in my book right here that I'm reading from, it says that that a man can become a god.

Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom who become gods. must also have been married for eternity in the temple. And so see, Tracy, that's something that we would want to Address and say, is this truly what Jesus taught? Do we find that? in the Bible?

Do we find those types of teachings in the Bible? And we want to be sure because Satan is crafty, he's subtle, and although there are. There are so many reasons why Why we could talk to our friends who are Mormon. That's just one of them to me that really stands out. And it's it's not out of anger or meanness or persecution, it's just that When I look back at my my life and and becoming born again putting faith, my faith in Christ alone when I was 14, I didn't see.

that that the the m the the message from the Mormon Church was Was something that could coalesced with With what I was being taught in the Bible.

So, Tom, would you want to comment on what Tracy is asking about? Sure, Tracy, first of all, thank you so much for calling and just sharing. I hear your heart, and it's actually fantastic that you would just take the time to call. Um I think of What Jesus said in John 14, 6, he says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. And so I think of just what it means to coming out of the LDS faith.

and what it means to consider Jesus as the way I mean, I'll own it. When I was a young LDS teenager, I definitely understood the mission, and that was that I needed to work real hard. to to make a way that In fact, the analogy that was taught to me is that if I ran and jumped off the cliff as hard as I could, Jesus' hands waiting there to catch me. And the point behind that was if I did enough, if I tithed enough, if I eventually went to the But I Kept the ordinances, if I obeyed the leadership and did everything that I was asked to do, then maybe Jesus would catch me, right? But the prince the premise there was that I had to work real hard and The reason that we're doing what we're doing today, Tracy, is because we just want you to know the Jesus that we know.

who finished everything. In fact, when he hung on a cross for us, he said, it is finished. And he completed the work. He fulfilled every righteous requirement of the law so that we can come in simple faith. and know him.

And so that's why we're doing what we're doing. It's not to be offensive. It's not to say that we're right, you're wrong. It's because we do love you and we do care about you and we know that Jesus loves you immensely way more than we do. Um I hope that I you know Yeah.

I just like when you read in Mark, It says, For he that is not against us is on our part. And then in Luke, it says, And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not, for he that is not against us is for us. You know, and And I feel like I'm sorry. I get what you're saying because I see that a lot in this and this culture of the LDS Church is. That after all you can do and when is that?

Like you can you can die Feeling like you've never done enough. Like, I have a. I have a very dear friend. who when I would speak to her, I you know, what you would say, are you saved? She would say no, and I'm like, what?

What do you mean to what?

So I understand where you're coming from and it's a stigma and I really believe that needs to change. You know, James also said that that faith without works is dead. But, you know, what are those works? I mean, there's the fruit of your spirit. There's all these things that you know, Christ has asked us to be obedient to Um if you believe in the Ten Commandments, I mean those are things Then he asked us to Yeah.

And to follow And you know, like that you're not to murder or steal or You know, covet or all of those things, I think that that was a part of Christianity of just being an honest and upright and good person. And that's what I learned through this. And I talk to a lot of people and they're like, well, you're just really different. because I see it differently. I see that that Jesus Christ That that saved my life through His atoning sacrifice, his blood and his in the in Gethsemane on the cross and And I gave him my life.

And Sure. You know, and I feel like a lot of times he asks me to do things that feel a little uncomfortable like chatting with a person that like calling you.

Well, sure. I don't want to cut you off because we're going to run out of time, but I do hear what you're saying. When I think of the James passage, I look at that passage. There's actually something significant in there that we don't want to miss. And he mentions Abraham in that passage.

And Abraham actually believed God, who is considered righteous before he ever did a work. And so, when James is talking about doing works, he's absolutely talking about us, it's actually smart for us to. to live out our faith and the reality of it, but the order of operations, even in that James passage, stands upon us putting our faith in Christ first. and then he produces works in us. And so, I'm not even trying to argue with you on that one.

I'm just so. No, no, I agree with you. Within the LDS framework that I'm reared in and came out of, that was not the order of operations. The order of operations was work. And maybe someday you'll please Jesus.

Maybe someday you'll attain the celestial kingdom. I'm sure that makes me sad. I'm sorry. Right, and I get you, and it should make us all sad, which is why we're on the radio right now, which is why we're trying to talk to people about the saving grace of Jesus, his immense love, and his plan to save you if you just put your faith fully and completely in him, not in leadership, not in extra-biblical scriptures, not just in Christ. He is enough, he is sufficient.

He finished the work of God on the cross. He satisfied every righteous requirement of law. He satisfied the wrath of God for you. And that's what it's about. It's not about any other thing.

And if I could say, I am in agreeance that. That he is the the He is the one. Like in the there like you said, there is no other way. except for through him. I hope Tracy.