Michael Irvin: Cowboys Should Have Signed Christian Wilkins

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See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Rich Eisen Show and we thank you for sharing that with us. With guest host, Suzy Schuster. Live from the Rich Eisen Show studio in Los Angeles. What do you think that means to the locker room that they bring Saquon in here?

Saquon got an opportunity to not just choose where he wants to go but to stick it to his team and if these teams don't like it then pay guys. Earlier on the show, Pro Football Hall of Famer Michael Ervin coming up. Director of Apple TV's Dynasty Rise of the New England Patriots, Matthew Hamacek, Warriors head coach Steve Kerr and now sitting in for Rich, it's Suzy Schuster.

Hi everybody, Suzy Schuster here with you all. Rich takes a couple days off. I think he deserves it.

I also like to kick him out of the house every so often and then I get to call Michael Ervin and say hey, want to come in studio and hang out with me because I like to out book my husband with guests whenever possible and I take ownership of Michael Ervin because I knew him first. Mikey D, you can you know back me up on this please. A hundred percent. Right. And you invited me to the wedding.

That's right. I was at that wedding, yes, and it's just so incredible that Rich and I work together now. I love it.

All these years too. I know, I just think, I always say when you know when I'm doing you guys baby name you know this was this was ordained that we were together. We're going to be together.

You know how much I love you. Suzy and everything that even things that I did with with my family and you've always. Suzy's been there for all of us though. Everybody. Suzy's like the mom of everybody you know no matter what goes on and everybody's for anybody's family.

Suzy calling to make sure anybody on our desk, on our team, she's going to call to make sure they're okay. She's like the mom that's why we love her so much. You know how I feel about you but I mean I could go on about that all day. I love that you're here.

I love that you raised down the 405 to be with us so I really do appreciate it I have to say and he was my friend first but that's enough. All right so I mean ownership right? Let's go Cowboys because that's what everyone's waiting for right? Right. Is there any part of you that is thinking why aren't they making bigger moves? And let me tell you there are two things that that here I said hmm okay we cuddle and there's one thing that I will say that's the only time I was okay once the only thing I'm okay with if Jerry's going to stretch it.

Now I'll take the front end first. I would love to see Derrick Henry become a Cowboy. Great. Now now now why you say Derrick Henry Michael because I believe Cowboy needed a hammer since Zeke left. Somebody that makes a physical run and Derrick Henry makes his physical run. He's the best.

He's the best at it and and he's still salty you know he still has something left in the tank. He's a physical runner. We could have used that hammer and I'm you disappointed because I thought Derrick Henry should be out of the price range 15 16 17 million dollar a year back still. He's worth that but they really got him on a nine million dollar deal. One year deal for nine million dollars.

He ate Tony Paul at ten last year. I thought Derrick Henry was a possibility he could have done that. Now the only person in this this early run that that that that that I wish Jerry could have done and I would have said oh stretch the money for that. Stretch the money.

It's Kristen Wilkins. That big fella that the Raiders just signed. If the Cowboys could have gotten a big fella like that I know 85 million dollars guarantee it's a lot of money but that that's that speaks to your leak.

That's where you've been leaking right there. Big defensive tackle. They can also get to the quarterback.

They can stop and help with the run defense and put less pressure on the linebackers that you don't have. I mean Kendricks is a great pickup and we needed that. So yeah yeah but all that other stuff that passed by I would let pass on by the only player I would have said stretch that pocket for the Raiders got him and you didn't have to stretch the pocket for Derrick Henry. I wish you would have gotten him.

Yeah he sure made Max Crosby happy. Steven Jones just spoke about the Cowboys free agency moves. Let's hear from him now.

What did he say? I don't look at it the next few weeks. I look at it as you know all the way up and up and through the season in terms of you know how we continue to address this and you know just as we all say that first day first negotiating day you know it's wild and it's and it's big big big dollars but then as you see now things are calming down and you know that's where we think you know you can be efficient and do do good things. I think we have in the past whether it's via trade or whether it's via just like we did yesterday with Kendricks I'm sure there'll be more players released around the league as people move forward and work with within their cap so you never know what you might see that you don't see today so those are all things that we feel very prepared to make quick decisions on and I look forward to.

What do you think? You know and Jerry's always been that with that philosophy and passed down that philosophy to Stevens and I think he's right there that first few those first few days you overpay you overpay now if we all think back you can't tell me someone that you that you remember getting pulled over getting getting a big deal in those first few days that just went and turned it out for wherever they went and they got full value for the overpricing you're going to overprice be overpriced because everybody's betting and battling so to the number keep moving you wait to that to that first tier fall there's a lot of talent still left on the foot left in free agency and a lot of talent still will be coming over where you can find some good deals and some good bargains the Cowboys up against it because they got a sign back dead Prescott they got to go sign CD lamb and they got I think they should look in there making sure they lock down Michael Parsons right now right now because no doubt he's going to be the each year is going to cause you more money to sign him so I would say you lock them down right now but you have those things that's why I'm saying don't go crazy you can't overspend on someone and and we all base this off of Deion Sanders and Charles Haley and with Jerry got a Deion Sanders that made a difference Jerry got a Charles Haley that those made they made that made a difference I don't see any guy outside of Kristen Wilkins guy that drew it up rung in I saw oh my god that's going to make a difference that did you have to overpay I would like I said earlier would have liked to see Derrick hearing I mean I'm the big guy go over there here and go over there because I thought that was something that was viable you could have got that that was within them that was within the money structure if I had 10 million at the running back start last year he's got nine now and the salary cap went up so yeah I thought that was possible but I'm okay with everything else Michael Ervin here on the Rich Eisen show how badly does Jerry still want trophies when we talk about the ones that you guys won it's been a long time yeah but it's everything it's everything that that's it you know everything has to work around right now Jerry getting that one trophy when he gets to one I believe he'll be able to raise his hand like he wants to cuz he wants credit and that that was that was the breakup that was the breakup and now we want to ask about how important is it for Jerry consider the breakup a man went back-to-back championships in and you know Jerry made a change so obviously it's important to Jerry to now after doing that a hundred years ago to make sure he at least wins a Super Bowl it's everything it's everything and he wants to be able to say he did his way so it but it is everything to him but it's confusing to watch as just a fan so he could have had Bill Belichick but maybe maybe he decided clearly he decided wasn't worth it he's got Dak ahead and he's got to decide whether Dak is his guy he's not a young guy this is his last he's he's approaching the battlefield right now for his last attack right right right but but but he wants he wants to win and he wants to do it his way and now I always say this guys when you made I don't know how much you're worth ten billion dollars it's hard to tell that guy when all of his decisions have worked out so well for him like that they do you don't know what you're doing you know people always say man with Jerry get Jerry out the way you think Jerry gonna listen to your brother he got ten billion dollars your ass broke why should he listen to you 13 bill you're short-changing yeah he's up to 13 all right 13 he said I would wake them bought the cowboy 400 and falling I caught him up to 14 billion that's crazy money you do that kind of stuff yeah you tend to listen to you a lot I don't blame you for listening to you a lot to you the way you can do that so that so but but he wants to win he wants to win he just wants to do it his way and and and and and I like some of the things just not all of them like sometimes you do need hope you kept the same quarter but same coach so you go if you want to keep the same coach just throw me a little bone here what's with a big name like a dairy carry to give the fan base a little more hope because we did 12 wins we've done 12 wins three years in a row and we were out the first round now you come in with a player that says hey this guy can change things now you get hold it maybe this will be a different year and and that that I think you had a chance to give that fan base a little joke and and you missed it so you're the GM what do you do now well I stay pat right now I and there's still my biggest concern right now honestly if I'm the GM I if I'm Jerry I'm trying to find out where Tyrone's gonna land that where Tyrone Smith gonna land it's going to land because you know he made about eight million last year and he really is one of the better tackles in the NFL right now so first I want to get all my guys but try to get Tyrone back even though they said he's going first they said he was staying out and say he's going and all of that's just negotiation but that's what my focus will be getting back those main players that I talked about the CD Dakin and in Michael and even Tyrone and and then how can I get better how can I go get me a little bit more help on the defensive line and some more linebacker help to sure up this run and I would feel pretty good about that here's your hypothetical so if Dak reassigned and he gets his big deal should he restructure his contract to back in at the way Brady did to get it more players now to prove that he wants to be there and he wants to win now for Jerry well and that's just it right there that I don't with the way these negotiations are going with him and the lead and in the Cowboys each time they've been a fight a tooth to a fight to the to the end so and for every dollar and it is lingered and played on and I don't think that his agents going to change I think that'll be the same situation I don't think that's going to be able going to be saying hey listen we're looking to give a friendly team friendly deal they want their money and I mean they'll go get their money cuz they got they'll get it because they got all the leverage can't franchise me can't trade him he has all the leverage so he'll get it he'll get it and I'm okay with that I like that I can't I'm not with those people that say let's go in a different direction no no no I'm oh 12 wins we've been 12 wins we're in the playoffs and we got a shot I'm not okay we're going back in a different direction and falling all the way back to four five and six wins and out of the playoffs let's just keep this thing moving and players and winning would you have been tempted to see Bill Belichick there for you would you have liked that I I would have liked to see Bill Belichick in Dallas I thought I thought Atlanta I thought he was going to Atlanta and when Atlanta got Kirk Cousins oh my god why wouldn't now if you had Bill Belichick it's Dallas concern to you why do I say that Dallas when you watch that playoff game the third and three the tight end just ran a little quick out I had a cornerback that was 12 yards off the tight end what are you doing it's third and three get up on him and press him Bill Belichick pays attention to those little tiny things those little tiny details that win football games that's what I wanted in Dallas but I love Bill I don't know better check you know I will change my MacArthur I would have loved to get Bill Belichick and tie down those little things right there but I would I won't be able touching the offense I just want him to tie down those little things on defense and I don't know if he'll be okay with we're just taking that side of the ball what's the biggest question you have for the Cowboys heading into this season it's still stopping the run it's the tip it's stopping the run and who else goes on the board on game plan Wednesday CD lamb is the first person we put on the board when the teams walk in on Wednesday we got to stop 88 I wanted a dairy curious so they said we got to stop CD and dairy carry I already got the defense in conflict you see the Cowboys don't have that at the running back position one last question one minute to go with all the devaluation of the running backs you got to play with Emmitt Smith so you know how valuable it is to have this great running back so what are your thoughts on it it blows my mind to it really does and even people now you know we try to play with it tell me look at the rush already back stop stop there's no rush already but all we did was shuffle them around a little bit we really didn't move any numbers they didn't move the number in a great way you know last year the franchise number was 10 million this year's 12 million you you these guys are worth you'll tell me dairy carry dairy carry was worth whatever you paid him but you went and paid Ryan Taney a hundred and sub million dollars say corn Barkley was worth what he was asking but you went and paid Daniel Jones 45 million dollars quarterbacks not worth what you're paying the running backs are and you're still paying the quarterbacks that blows my mind right there you know me Derek and Ryan Taney Hill who ran that team Derek Henry did but Ryan Taney Hill got the money Daniel Jones say corn Barkley say corn Barkley was the catalyst of this team but Daniel Jones got the money what they're doing the running backs it is this it's insane it's incredible and I don't buy into it I don't buy into it because the first time the great quarterback that you have are not playing well what do we say he needs a final running game that's how important those running backs are Michael I love you yeah I love you too girl you know I love you too I do well take a break when we come back we'll have Matthew have a check joining us he's the director and executive producer of the Patriots dynasty it is incredible thanks again for coming in baby looking for an assist with your credit card but can't get a hold of anyone luckily with 24-7 us-based live customer service from discover everyone has the option to talk to a real person anytime day or night yep you heard that right you can talk to a real human and customer service anytime sounds like a real game changer if you ask us make the right call and get the service you deserve with discover limitations apply see terms at discover comm slash credit card welcome to talk about the ultimate smallville rewatch podcast title transference aired October 27 2004 director James Marshall writers Todd Slapkin Darren swimmer I really like this episode and I'm surprised that you don't like it as much as you thought you did I actually respect your opinion more than I respect my own in general when you say things are good and I check them out they are jump in now or catch up on any of the past seasons of talk ville on YouTube or wherever you listen so I played 11 years she did they've been to the Super Bowl nine times and I didn't get there once right think about that right and I was one pick away from being drafted by the Patriots what happened the charges drafted I know that's what happened they didn't they didn't but so they didn't come up and come get you so I went to so I went on the visit to the Patriots and that's when Charlie Weiss was office coordinator and I go to Boston and I really like to visit I like Charlie I love Charlie Weiss you meet with Bill I did meet with Bill you know we sat in his office right above the stadium right there where you looking out at the stadium and we really just sat there we really didn't talk about much we just looked at each other what do you mean you just looked at each other like each other serious saying it was awkward I mean I just you know you know how bill is he just there's only a few things he probably wants to know about you and I guess he was trying to get a sense of you know was I passionate about football as most coaches coaches do right invest a first-round pick on a guy you want to make sure they're passionate do you think they would have chosen you if you were available well they said they were going to choose me Charlie Weiss promised me if I was there at sticks because they needed a running back they need a running back bad that year and so uh yeah when the charges drafted me I think they took Richard Seymour have you ever brought up to Brady when you've seen him I never brought it up you could have been Robin is bad always always thought about you know what would that be like but I'll do respect Antoine Smith all doers yeah I know right entrance I know it would have been a little different no way yeah I'm kind of getting freaked out welcome back to the rich eyes and show radio network I'm sitting at the rich eyes and show desk furnished by Granger with supplies and solutions for every industry Granger's got the right product for you just call click Ranger calm or just stop by Suzy Schuster in for rich taking a couple days off I think he deserves it Matthew Hammond check joins us me right now I mean when I tell you my excitement for having the director and executive producer of the dynasty New England Patriots on Matthew I watched three and a half hours of your doc yesterday with my father and it every minute I sat there saying oh my god this is the greatest doc I have ever seen that is not without hyperbole and it is not because I'm a Patriots fan it's because of how you did it so let me start with how did this come to you well Jeff Benedict I was working on tiger for HBO about a couple years ago and Jeff Benedict had written the book that inspired that documentary and as we were wrapping it up you know I'd be on the phone with Jeff and all of a sudden you know I'd be like why are you always driving so much and he's just like well I'm going back up to Foxborough and back and all this kind of stuff and then I and then he said you know tell you the truth I'm writing this book about the Patriots and he asked me if if I'd be interested in directing it and I immediately said yes even though I am not a Patriots fan I root for a different team but you know I think what was great is once I got across and in the interview chair from the 70-plus players and coaches in the front office execs and rivals that we got to talk to I didn't really have any idea I didn't have a preconceived notion about what the story was supposed to be so I got to really just be curious and ask questions and sit back and let these people who are there in the room tell their story wait are you a sports fan period or are you yeah okay oh yeah who's your type packers my dad grew up outside of Green Bay Wisconsin so I was indoctrinated and like most you know children of crazed sports fanatic parents and so I've been going to Lambeau since I was you know you know four years old probably so right after that I have to ask you as a sports fan you do the Tiger doc you're doing this doc are you thinking oh my god what happened to my life I wasn't I mean it's an honor to be able to tell the stories about these people and Tiger was totally different though right Tiger was the opposite approach on the as this one where you know I didn't have Tigers team I didn't have Tiger himself I didn't have anybody on the inner circle and it was sort of from the outside in talking to people that have gotten to know him over the years and then you know what's interesting is that even though this is the I got to talk to everybody you know version of the story the process is sort of the same thing you go to these people whether it's Tiger himself or you know or Tom or anybody and you sort of say look I'm trying to tell the unvarnished version of this story and it's gonna be the good the bad and everything in between and you know you build up trust with people and then when you get them in the interview chair you sort of asked everybody all the same questions and I mean this the thing is even though I wasn't a Patriots fan the one thing I did know is that you know they were always sort of they kept everybody at arm's length and so to be able to sort of peek inside the wall and start to talk to these people was just just incredible that's exactly it I mean the Patriots have always been one of the most impenetrable teams in football and that you were able to sit there and have this unfettered access is truly what's so amazing did you do all of the interviews yourself no I did I did like the vast majority of them but you know there were times when when we thought that there would be different people who were better at talking to different people and it just it was a decision we made sort of on the fly what when we were starting to do prep for the interviews who's the best person to talk to these people and why and but you know getting to sit across from Tom Brady Bill Belichick and Robert Kraft and then you know all these people and just really you know ask them about the stories about like the way that they formed this sort of perfect machine that we've never seen before and probably will never see again and then also to talk to them about the things about like how this thing fell apart at the seams towards the end which is really what is being documented in the two episodes that are dropping tomorrow on Apple TV Plus Matthew Hamachek the director and executive producer of the dynasty the New England Patriots which you have to see on Apple if you haven't seen it yet just start right now it is so enjoyable the the critics would say that this comes off like a hatchet job on Belichick what's your answer to that I don't see it that way what I see is the first five episodes were a love letter to the culture that Bill Belichick built there and I think that you know I think part of the reason some people like New Englanders who are you know diehard fans there there's a very vocal minority out there that's very loud about this but you know I I look at episode five for example when Brady goes out and and Matt Castle comes in and Bill still goes 11 and 5 and people are saying you know I'm starting this is this what Bill Belichick is doing this season is starting to make me doubt the greatness of Tom Brady I mean these are the this is a love letter to Bill Tom Brady's up there saying you know I would not be the player I am without coach Belichick and I was speaking to another person of the coaching staff very recently and they said look there is no greater thing you can hear from a player about you as a coach than when somebody like Tom Brady says something like that so I don't agree I think that part of this is this is the unvarnished telling of the story and that means that we're gonna cover everything and it's gonna be the good the bad and everything in between and and I maybe a little bit of is it that people just aren't used to seeing that I think when we talk about the bad we talk about the Aaron Hernandez hour it was riveting to say the least and at the end of it my 13 year old Cooper looked at me and said wow mom I had no idea what was it like going in there to tell this story and then just finding out nugget after nugget the amount of footage that you unearthed whether it had been and not I'm not giving anything away whether it had been outside of the club or the the double homicides that he was later cleared up or what have you what was what was it like for you to tell this side of the story so one of the things that we had both via NFL films and then within the Patriot archive itself was you know 35,000 hours of never before seen footage right and to visualize like what that's like the amount of tapes is it would take two Mac trucks to fill up with these tapes that are about the size of you know a credit card to just give you a sense of it and I still will never forget when we found the NFL one of one of the people that was on the project I think was Paul Willard found the look NFL rookie symposium from 2010 which was the year that Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronkowski and Devin McCourty were all drafted and Chris Carter the Hall of Fame wide receiver is sitting there and and and this is to the league's credit that they have things like this where they have people who come in and tell these guys look if you think money is going to change you for the good you're you're fooling yourself that's what that's what Chris Carter says and and and then Aaron Hernandez asked this question and so it's finding footage like that but what I will never forget is I was sitting across from Dionne Branch and Dionne Branch obviously has an incredible sort of you know he was with the Patriots for for a while with Super Bowl MVP left then comes back and we were talking about all the usual things you would talk to Dionne Branch about and then all of a sudden one of the producers Vin D'Anton text me on during the interview and he says by the way I think Dionne might know Aaron Hernandez and when I asked him about that I said tell me about Aaron and he and it's actually what you see when the episode starts it you Dionne just goes we called him Chico man and and everything about Dionne's like the way he was looking the way he was holding himself changed and in that moment I sort of realized our entire philosophy the whole to the series was these are the guys that are there so let's get out of the way and let them tell the story but that that episode in particular you realize that you have to just step back and say let these guys talk let them say what it was like to be there and and and part of that was the tragedy of Aaron Hernandez but the other part of it is you still realize how much all of these people including Robert Kraft still care deeply about this guy and so it was sort of the duality of telling the Aaron Hernandez story yeah hey Matthew Chris here I'm also a Patriots fan so I've been I've been loving this doc that episode also opened with what it looked like was a behind-the-scenes promo shoots for like jumbotron or something yeah yeah yeah and you're tight in on Aaron and getting him to smile getting him to laugh look serious that was just a chilling way to kind of begin that hour well just think about what it was like for our team to be sitting there and just you're combing through these hundred you know thousands of hours of stuff and then all of a sudden you know whether you're an intern or assistant editor or something and all of a sudden you just find this thing and it's just this haunting thing and you're thinking I can't believe this is unfolding in front of my eyes and you know whether it's that piece of footage or the Ricky symposium or even something as simple as like you know when Aaron there's a moment when Aaron's dragging a trash bag out through the locker room and it just it gives a three dimensionality to a person who until this point has often just been caught up in headlines and I think that's what you're always trying to do when you're telling a story that people have they think that they've really consumed a lot before right you're trying to say all of this is more complex and nuanced than the headlines or the caricature of the people is sort of you know led you to believe and so that's always the goal and when you find something new in the footage or you hear something new in one of the interviews it completely restructures how you tell the story of that episode and how you tell like the 10-part arc of the New England Patriots. Yeah hearing Dion Branch just kind of talk about it you can tell that he is still just deeply affected by the guy he thought he knew and then the person that Aaron turned out to be. And Dion even says things like how could you I mean that's one of the opening moments for Dion he says how could you not see that Dion I think that about that all the time how could you not see that how could you not see that and it's like I said when you hear that you're just like all right our job here is to let them talk and get out of the way.

What was your biggest booyah moment like as a producer when you find that piece of footage you're like this is gold I can't believe it. Oh my gosh I mean there were so many I think that I don't know if it was a piece of footage but one of the things that I really wanted to do when we were telling the Spygate story was obviously this could be a part of Bill Belichick's career I know for a fact he doesn't really want to you can see him in the interview chair he doesn't want to really relive it that much but what I thought was remarkable about that moment wasn't as much that they got caught cheating because that story has been told a thousand times what I liked about that story was that any other team with any other culture would have fallen apart of the scenes but because of the culture that Bill had created and because of Tom Brady's buy-in because of everybody there's buy-in that team instead of folding they wrap their arms you know literally and figuratively around Bill and they say how do we feel about being coached by Bill Belichick and they go oh yeah and and one of our editors who grew up a couple towns outside of Foxborough and had all the posters on the walls when he was growing up and everything he he cut the first version of that that undefeated run and he sort of described it like these guys are all on the Death Star they're the evil empire now but they're all in the Death Star and they're having a party as they go from planet to planet destroying everybody in their path and I just thought how how much more fun is this to like be with them and have Teddy Borowski say something like it kind of felt like we were the bad guys and it kind of felt good and that was like a different take on all of this and this idea of like you know Bill at a low point probably for him is when everybody embraces him and they go on this ride and it leads to this sort of operatic finish of going up against the Giants and losing in this you know incredible fashion and so I think that the human story of all these things whether it's the betrayal in Scott Kiolis words by Eric Mangini or anything else I think that's the stuff that always interests me more than the football. Did you obviously reach out to Eric Mangini to speak? I assume he declined. I did at one point nice you know I definitely did and I just said I mind I sort of the same thing that I tell a lot of people which is you know you're obviously part of this story and you're going to be a character in this story and what I always try to do with everybody is what I tried to do with Bill frankly when I asked him some of the tougher questions is to give him the opportunity to comment because I want them to tell their story and let me get out of the way as much as possible and so we asked and it was just you know there was a there was a he declined and then you know we moved on. When did you get the sense that you mentioned Bill that he was just gonna kind of stonewalling away and and just really not kind of embrace the the process here? Well I mean look I understand what you're talking about when we get to some of the more difficult subject matter whether it's Hernandez or Deflategate or you know even the benching of Malcolm Butler he's definitely he's definitely like that but I also you know I think when there were subjects that we talked about that he wanted to talk about whether it was calling Randy Moss and the club in Houston and that was a great story by the way.

Randy Randy thinking that if he's it's an for Bill Breitel, Belichick impersonator. Bill loved telling that story he loved to I mean in episode 10 you know basically to just to give your viewers a sense of how incredible the game plan was from Bill and that for for the Rams Super Bowl the second Rams Super Bowl. Bill and his coaching staff realized that the Rams you know basically don't play well against his own defense and but the problem was that the Patriots and this is something that Devin McCourty actually tipped us off to basically that the Patriots played man the entire season and so in two weeks Bill Belichick gets that team ready to play zone defense and and stops one of the most sort of incredible offenses in NFL history and I think holds them to three points in the Super Bowl and at the end of it Steve Young is you know sort of doing commentary and he says this is Bill Belichick's Mona Lisa and so you know those moments are just incredible and obviously Bill lights up when when you're talking about that kind of stuff. What did you think of Bill? What's your takeaway? My takeaway is that they that Bill and Tom were perfect for each other that basically Bill Belichick wanted to create a culture where nobody was above the team and in order to do that he had to have buy-in from the basically the star of the team. Now Tom wasn't always the star. Bill's defense is definitely according to everybody including Tom carried those that team for the first you know couple Super Bowls and but as Tom became a global celebrity and a you know four or five six time you know winning Super Bowl quarterback you know the fact that you would be a rookie and get your signing bonus and you think you're you know your hot stuff and you get into that locker room and then your first low-light session Bill Belichick is saying to Tom Brady I can get the quarterback from down the street to throw a ball better than this and Tom Brady took it and it it set the tone and then on the other side I think Bill was perfect for Tom because Tom is one of the most driven human beings on the face of the planet but Bill always kept the carrot just out of reach and I think they were the perfect combination for each other and I just I you know there's this moment at the end of the series where Tom Brady says it's perfect it doesn't need to be anything more than that and he's talking about their journey and when I think about that I I don't want to put words in Tom's mouth but to me what he's sort of saying is yes there are incredible highs there are also incredible lows and we detail why Tom left but it was perfect and and that's sort of how I interpret what he's trying to say I mean Matthew you're setting it up perfectly because when I dropped off yesterday I thought to myself and this is after I guess this was like I don't know I don't even know what number was the last one but I thought to myself we make jokes here in the studio about how Mac Jones needs a hug and he wasn't gonna get it from Bill Belichick but at one point Bob Kraft says he didn't treat Tommy well referring to Bill Belichick and you wondered as you're watching the doc if you're watching the split occur right before your eyes without having realized it in real time yeah I think look that's part of what makes the story complicated right on one hand you can watch this and you can say man what if Bill had just you know what if deal just put his arm around Tom and said you know you're the greatest of all time I love you blah blah blah blah blah and all this kind of stuff but you know I also think if I'm in Bill Belichick shoes like why would I do that why would I change this thing that worked really really well and what if you changed it too early and they hadn't won the sixth Super Bowl because of that so yes you know according to the people that were there that was one of the reasons this thing fell apart but I also think you know why change something that worked so well and everything eventually has to end and is you know as interesting and fascinating as the end is and we really go into detail about that in episodes 9 and 10 I think it's equally fascinating if not more so that this thing lasted for as long as it did I mean Matthew I was logging it like a producer I kept making notes like Matthew Slater I felt like we lost the game even when we won referring of course to how Belichick would break down a win yeah and then Wes Walker saying I told Tom he was like an abused dog I'll never for I'm sitting across from Wes Walker when he said that I my jaw was on the floor I mean you know it's it's a complicated story and but it the thing is you know when Matthew Slater says that thing it's shocking but he also follows it up by saying but that's a credit to Bill nobody was above the team and what he's trying to point out here is yeah it was like that but it's part of the reason it worked so well there was a Danny Amendola who said we were something about bill but we worked we worked for a bill but we played for time but that's it but that's the thing is that's they were perfect for each other right right I mean and and look you know let's not let's not pretend that Tom wasn't just as as sort of maniacal and driven as Bill is you know and would and you know Rob Gronkowski has talked at length about how for the first you know however long Tom was hard on him until he finally started running the routes the right way and doing all the things that Tom looked for and and but I think that you know what you do see is you see in that moment right when they're about to go play the Falcons and go down 28 to 3 and everything you see Tom hug Julian Edelman and say I love you man and and I think that that's again another reason why they were just perfect for each other there's a reason for all the success and it's not necessarily it's not always the sexiest thing but it but it was all the behind the scenes work it was just they were they were just driven unlike anybody had seen and they made everybody else get in line and sort of do things the way that needed to be done in order to win because I'll never forget I was sitting across from Ernie Adams who's the director of football research and anybody who's a Patriot fan out there knows that Ernie is sort of this mysterious figure that nobody ever really got to talk to and I was I was really lucky to and I'm sitting across from him in our first interview that we do and he says everybody says they want to go to the Super Bowl but not everybody is willing to do what it takes to get there and when he said that it was like oh my gosh like that's exactly what we're gonna be trying to answer what does it take to get there and I think all of the things that we've been talking about today are the answer to that question it might not always be pretty but there is a reason why they got there over and over and over again Matthew Hamachek the director and executive producer of the Dynasty New England Patriots what about in just two more minutes with you the the Drew Henson Tom Brady autograph line story yeah away what a window into his psyche yeah and it was a J flintley who's Tom Brady's friend in in college at Michigan so this is sort of as Nora Princiotti who works at the ringer talks about she said and was at the Globe at the time she says this is sort of part of the Tom Brady story right that that you know he is the seventh string quarterback when he starts at Michigan freshman year and over the course of you know he's a fifth year senior by the end and over the course of that time he becomes the starter but then all of a sudden just when he gets there this kid drew Henson that Tom Brady says is smarter or is you know bigger stronger faster more talented all these things than he is comes in and the coach wants to go with Drew Henson instead of Tom at times that's part of the Tom Brady story according to Tom to his family to to the people that played with him is this guy and the story that you're talking about is what Jay he says is sort of the birth of the Tom Brady look of death and you know he always feels like the guy who didn't get picked and then that we sort of pair that with the drafting of Jimmy Garoppolo his replacement Tom saying I'm playing till 45 and Bill saying I'm looking at the data that says everybody falls off cliff at a certain age and we need to prepare for the future and then that leads to that going down 28 to 3 and then in my opinion you know one of if not the greatest sports comebacks ever and and then it's at that point in time as we when we're leaving episode 8 which is the one that aired last week is when people start to talk about this idea of a change in Tom Brady's identity this guy who was always willing to sort of you know as Michael Holly says a great journalist be a punching bag for Bill maybe not so much anymore and that I think that change may be part of the beginning of the end of all of this last question who did not go on camera with you that you wish had I don't know I think I think we we found the people that we needed you to tell the complete story and what I mean by that is even when Bill wasn't able to or wasn't willing to go into great detail about you know what were his feelings about why he you know went to sideline Alex Guerrero which is a big point of contention in episode 9 one of the things that I was really really lucky to have are people like Ernie Adams who I could go to and I could say hey Ernie I don't I don't want to make this the simple story I don't want it to be clean-cut and everything I need you to tell me why the coaching staff wouldn't want to have somebody in there like Alex Guerrero and and you know what Ernie says on camera is he says look all these players can go see anybody they want to in their own time but you can't have somebody inside the building that's going against your strength and conditioning staff and so to be able to get balance and nuance and complexity into the story I feel like we were really really lucky to have all the pieces there that we needed but there's great stuff on the cutting room floor I mean I'll give you an example I got Rex Ryan and he's so he's so interesting to talk to you but that one of the best things that he talked about I said you know Rex there's this great moment where Wes Welker does this this press conference and it's just after the foot foot fetish video comes out and he like finds a way to work work the word foot into every single thing that he says he says like we're gonna go out on the field and be good little foot soldiers and he says all these things like this and Rex admitted to me on camera so I can I can say this that uh that when I think when Wes Welker got married he sent him a pair of rubber feet fantastic joke and I was just sitting there just like oh man I know that this probably won't fit into the larger story that we're trying to tell about what it takes to get to greatness but this was it was gold so there's there's so much stuff on the cutting room floor that I wish I could have used but it was just it was just incredible well I mean Matthew Chris and I are available for like a podcast like let's get this going I'm calling Robert Kendrick I mean contract I mean we have to do this Robert if you're watching we'll shoot it here we could talk about this for days for years we could make this last longer than the Patriots run we're available you are a nice job fantastic I appreciate you guys thank you so much for having me on recommended even more Robert Kendrick if you're listening I'm just thinking this is this is a new podcast breaking down this dynasty how incredible if you haven't seen it you guys it is on Apple TV available right here on Roku and you have to see it let's go to break when we come back let's talk about the podcast we're gonna do about this let's do it I mean come on but donkeys named one of the best personal finance podcasts the stacking Benjamin show with Joe and his friends makes financial literacy fun I got an email today from the Len Penzo comm HR department I find really interesting I'm an employee of one at this company so but somebody from the HR department sent me an email telling me that I had a raise but I just opened the attachment I could see how much my raise was make sure you click on the links that are in there too oh absolutely yeah I can't wait this is I'm excited find out more by searching the stacking Benjamin's podcast wherever you listen hi there sorry for the interruption but are you enjoying this show on Google podcasts you should know that the Google podcast app is going away this spring that's right going away gone as in no longer available you can still enjoy this show elsewhere though try out Spotify or Amazon music or maybe tune in is more your style whatever app you switch to be sure to follow so you never miss the next episode and thanks for listening wherever you listen put your hands together for the most recent Heisman Trophy winner where is that trophy right now I'll sleep next to it's on your nightstand yeah see it's good morning Heisman every day seriously it's right there next it like there's a night table next to the Kyler Murray's bed in the Heisman Trophy is resting yes sir that's amazing have you ever woken up in the middle of the night and you've had it in your arms like you've been spooning there's no there's no Heisman spooning by the way I would if I won the high now taking part in the Rich Eisen show throw challenge Kyler Murray is this the first NFL Duke ball that you've thrown that's an NFL oh my god you won't even answer that Wow go for it Tyler go for you that's one two three by the way that's four those are all Duke NFL footballs just wanted everyone to know that four that's five these are the footballs Kurt Warner complained about that's six that's seven that's oh my goodness yeah let's get some up here we go keep going I'm on you got one more hold on here we go no it's getting bad you got seven for first seven good enough seven out congratulations he won the Heisman and it seems the Rich Eisen throwing contest in the same year that's a first no one could ever take that away from you wrapping up the second hour for the Rich Eisen show Susie Schuster in for Rich Eisen just got Rich's schedule for the day looks pretty good looks pretty good I think he's gonna have a nice couple days off sending me a video of the birds chirping I'm just have to say Chris little breaking news what do you have Mikey hit it here it comes we have a trade everybody trade okay now this is like an NBA Major League Baseball type deal guy you don't really see a one-for-one trade in the National Football League but the Arizona Cardinals are acquiring Desmond Ritter from the Atlanta Falcons in exchange for Rondell Moore a straight-up one-for-one trade Rondell Moore to the Falcons another Pete another offensive piece TJ they're kind of loading up over there I mean you know what other offense was loaded up for Kirk Cousins the year he had Dalvin Cook and Justin Jefferson and Adam Phelan and TJ Hawkins and then they win 13 games you know like so I don't know man I'm not sure you know that this is gonna work out the way everyone thinks it's gonna work out in Atlanta but I'm not a hater so I wish him the best you're not a hater no I think I'm the little the least ever hater on this set all right so we got so now the Falcons offense now is Kirk Cousins Bijan Robinson tower Algiers still on the roster right now we'll see if he gets moved but he was really good last year Drake London Darnell Mooney Rondo more cow pits I mean that's loaded pretty good that's that's that's making it that's making a statement pretty pretty loaded I like it best offense in the NFC the NFC like the entire NFC caught like the entire conference yeah the best office yeah no no okay now I'll hear rebuttals well there's the San Francisco 49ers they're really good the Philadelphia Eagles they're really good so I mean I don't know do you put the Cowboys up there I don't know two guys first of all like I said stop disrespecting our long snapper put some respect on Trent Seig's name you guys been trying to disrespect my man all week oh nice chunk out of the pie it's gotta stop Susie what was your thought listening to Michael Ervin talk about his thoughts on the Cowboys well you know we didn't have time on there so I chopped up with them off a little bit and I just asked him you know you know as one of those Dallas Cowboys fans that you know has to hear about it all the time being in this seat that I'm fortunate enough to be and I asked him you know you said Jerry wants to win but he wants to do it his way well you can't really have a caveat like that when it comes to winning especially when your way has I guess technically never worked the way everyone always kind of assumes it was the Jimmy Johnson who put that early 90s juggernaut together so his way he's never really worked that we can tell and I you know like I said the beginning of the show when you're making that much money and things are clicking and and everything else is doing great and every stadium that gets built you get paid maybe that's not their priority I don't know good thing we've got Steve Kerr ahead we've got a coach knows how to win when he come back oh yeah he's done a lot of winning he's done a lot of winning but I have to tell you TJ I do feel for you I do feel for you and again the weight of the championships in New England weighs very heavy on our shoulders it's hard to hold up all those rings I get look I had that's it we're not winning anytime soon so we're kind of you know joining you there you know Susie and Chris I was talking to Adam the call screener I just love putting that as his full name Adam the call screener but you know I told him look man I was in my late teens early 20s when the Cowboys went on that run and for me personally and obviously this is doesn't matter to a 25 year old cowboy fan but I'd lived in Pittsburgh right for that whole run and it was awesome growing up a Cowboys fan in Steelers country and always having to hear about it so for me the Cowboys being on that run me living there and then actually beating the Steelers that's the greatest times of my life football wise and even if the Cowboys won next year's Super Bowl I'll never have that same feeling as I did because of the moment in time that it happened and you know where I was at so I think I look at it a little differently like yeah we haven't won forever but when we did win I was in a great point in life I was in a great city and I was just loving it and I was obnoxious and I had fun so maybe that's why I'm a little bit not as angry as a lot of the Cowboys fans I guess who's well Steve Kerr is ahead who will talk to him we'll talk about his thoughts on the state of the NBA and the Golden State Warriors that is ahead right here on the Rich Eisen show when we come back do not go anywhere movies TV shows books podcasts and more it's what women binge with Melissa Joan Hart and her friend Amanda Lee we have Lauren Bosworth with the hills so what is like your number one question from fans the primary question I still get asked was what is it real 24 to me is a surprising question to get because I feel like everybody has been through the reality TV gauntlet at this point what women binge wherever you listen