What the Football with Suzy Shuster & Amy Trask: 5 with Michael Irvin

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That's Dell.com slash gift guide. Welcome to episode five leading into week six of What the Football brought to you by GameTime, the fast and easy way to buy tickets for all the sports, music, comedy, and theater events near you. GameTime has killer last minute deals all in prices and views from your seat, so you know exactly what to expect when you arrive. Take the guesswork out of buying tickets with GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account, and use the code WTF for $20 off of your first purchase. Restrictions apply. Visit GameTime.co for terms. Again, create an account. Redeem the code WTF for $20 off. Download GameTime today.

Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Hey everybody, Michael Irvin will join us soon. We will talk to him about that ending in Miami. What the heck happened with the hurricanes? We will also talk to him about what the heck happened with Dallas, Amy Trask.

We have a lot to unpack with him as well, but I'm excited to talk to you about that. We're in Patriots Raiders week. I have to say I'm wearing a hoodie today wondering if this is in fact the end of the Belichick era. Well, we don't know if it is, Susie, but I do.

I gotta say I do respect the hoodie and I wish I'd thought to do the same thing. I don't know what the crafts are going to do, but I do know this. Whatever they do, it will be well thought out.

It will be thoughtful. It will be reasoned. They're not going to act rashly or hastily.

It's not going to be spur of the moment. They're going to make a well thought out decision, whatever that decision is. And you know, there are many people who believe there's ill will between the crafts and the Davises while I was in the league, ill will between the crafts and the Raiders, the Raiders and the Patriots, and none of that is true. Certainly adversaries on the field on game day, but I have tremendous respect for the way Robert and Jonathan run that team.

And in fact, Robert did something that was very, very special to me during my career. There was a point, I think it was roughly 2007, where Al accused the Patriots of tampering with Randy Moss. Well, I heard he made the accusation. When I walked into his office, I said, they didn't tamper. We called them and Al said, no, no, no, they tampered. I said, no, no, no, no.

Someone on our football ops staff called the Patriots and asked about their interest in Randy. They did not tamper. Well, Al went on and on and on about tampering. And I just said, we're not bringing a tampering allegation. I'm thwarting this.

We're not going to do this. League meeting very shortly thereafter, and I'm checking in, I'm in the league office, in the hotel where the meeting's occurring, and I see Robert Kraft. And I said, may I talk to you for a minute? And you could just see him tense up. I mean, you could just see, it was as if he just, his fists clamped up.

He didn't make fists, but that's what it looked like to me. And he said, okay. And I apologized to him. I said, I know you didn't tamper. I'm sorry that Al is accusing you of tampering. I'm not going to let us bring a tampering charge. You didn't tamper.

You did nothing wrong. And he took a deep breath and you could see him relax. And he said one of the most special things to me during my career, he said, I understand the challenges you're facing at this point in Al's life.

And he went on at great length to tell me about challenges he had faced and that he understood what I was facing at that point in Al's life during my career. And it was very, very special. So I have tremendous, tremendous respect for the Crafts.

I think they run their business magnificently. And there's a lesson in all of this. We can all disagree with one another about a play on the field. And we do disagree with one another about that play, but you can also be colleagues in other regards.

All right, let's just go in a different direction. What were you dealing with? It was later, later in Al's life. And Susie, as you know, a lot of people criticized Al for decisions he made late in his life.

They felt it was for the short term and they wasn't making the best long term interests, what was best in the long term for the team. And I couldn't say anything publicly. I never would, whether I could or couldn't.

The point is, I never would say anything publicly. But when you know what your life expectancy is, you may define long term and short term very, very differently than someone who does not know what their life expectancy is. In other words, did Al make decisions towards the end of his life that were in the I want to win right now, even though these might not be the best decisions long term? Yeah, he did.

But guess what? He knew he didn't have a long term. So the lesson I think or I hope people will learn is before criticizing someone for making short term decisions, understand they may know they only have a short term. And that was part of the conversation that I had with Robert Kraft. It's so interesting because I heard on the broadcast and we're taping this on Tuesday. So we're taping it the day after the Raiders defeated the Packers. What'd you say?

Say that again. I'm sorry. We heard this the day after Jimmy G organized a win against the Packers, because, you know, I'm Raider-centric when it comes to one thing only. And, you know, I heard some broadcasters referring to, you know, Al made some mistakes.

They were showing Mark Davis at the end of the game. And I thought to myself, how interesting, because I do a podcast with somebody who's there the entire time. And I thought, I want to bring this up tomorrow, because what was it like for you, Amy, to be there at Al's side knowing he was making mistakes, but having to be there to support him doing such? Well, look, one of the biggest misconceptions about Al is that you couldn't disagree with him.

If you couldn't disagree with Al, or if he wouldn't, as is rumored, tolerate people who disagreed with him or tolerate disagreement, I'd have been fired roughly two, two and a half weeks into my job, because there I was right at the beginning sitting in an office with a colleague and Al walked in and ripped into this guy like I can only imagine a velociraptor ripping into flesh. And after he went on for a few minutes, I said, excuse me, you're wrong. And I will laughing now as I in the look on his face, when his head turned to me, this kid who'd been there roughly two, two and a half weeks, telling him loudly because I have a loud voice and he was talking loudly. So I loudly said you're wrong. But I went on and said to him, look, if you were basing your conclusion on accurate data, fair conclusion, but you're not you're basing your decision, your conclusion on inaccurate information and you're wrong. And my point in sharing this with you, Susie, is I disagreed with Al over the almost 30 years I was there more than I agreed with him. And it was my responsibility to try to convince him when he was wrong. But I also recognize that at the end of the day, he owned the team. I didn't.

And ultimately, he was in charge with full authority and ultimate responsibility. Can I tell you my funny Bob Kraft story before we unpack the Bellatrix situation? So, you know, I grew up in Boston and I went to an all girls school and his son, David, his youngest, went to the all boys school of my all girls school. So I grew up going to parties at the Kraft's house. Like we'd have dance parties, epic parties.

And Myra would be there and Bob would be there. So I knew him as Mr. Kraft. You know, I was 14. Hey, Mr. Kraft, how are you? Hi, Mr. Kraft.

And I knew him just from our families were friendly. And David and I went on to the same college. Mr. Kraft had gone there as well. Hi, Mr. Kraft. And then, of course, you know, Rich gets into the NFL network and we'd see him at different things. And hi, Mr. Kraft, how are you? Now, during COVID, Rich is doing a podcast from the house because everyone's trapped. And he's like, you know, I'm going to have Bob on.

Do you want to come say hi? So I get in Rich's office behind him and said, hey, Mr. Kraft. He says to me, Susie, you're old enough to call me as I call me, Bob, call me RKK. I said, OK, Mr. Kraft, because like, no matter what, you know, I still feel like a kid, even though I'm 51. But that's my Bob Kraft story. I digress.

But it's my podcast. I can tell whatever story you can do. You can tell whatever damn story you want. So let's unpack what's happening in New England. Did Belichick win because of Brady? Did Belichick win because of the tandem of the two together? I've gone down the rabbit hole of reading this week about, you know, they made the Cam Newton decision. Mac Jones gets benched, you know, second straight game.

What is happening? Can they win again? And honestly, we're back to the pre-Brady era right now where it seems like the end of the world every single week. But do you think it's finally time that Bob Kraft will say to Bill Belichick at the end of the season and join Nantucket, go off to Wisconsin?

Thanks so much for your service. Well, I'll answer that in a couple ways. Again, I don't know what the Crafts are going to do, but I do know that they will make a reasoned, reasonable, well thought out, well considered decision. They're not going to be rash. They're not going to do anything very, very quickly. They're not going to bring out an overhead projector.

She says giggling because I hid that overhead projector. I don't know what they're going to do, but they've got to do what I say everyone has to do in this instance. And I believe they will do ask themselves the question and do what if they decide to move on from Bill Belichick and do what? And if they don't ask themselves that question and have an answer that is at least as good as the status quo, if not better than what the heck are you doing? So I believe that when it comes to decisions in football and otherwise and do what?

You've got to ask yourself the question and you've got to have an answer. And by the way, as we sit here discussing the Crafts and Al Davis and the Raiders and the Patriots, they play one another next week. As you mentioned at the outset, I think we should bet ice cream. Ooh, a friendly wager. Yeah, I don't do unfriendly wagers. I don't wager money, but I will always wager like a giant, giant ice cream sundae, because then even if you lose, you win because you get to eat part of it.

All right, deal. I don't feel very confident taking the Patriots right now. I mean, I really don't because look, Mac Jones looks like he's a lost quarterback. But what do you see as going wrong with the Patriots right now? I think he kind of nailed it, which is and I'll talk French on our podcast.

Je ne sais quoi. There's just something isn't right. And now they've got more injuries on defense in particular. I don't know what to make of Mac Jones. I would be tempted to sit him down, not just at the end of a game, but for more than that.

But again, and do what? Do they like who they have instead? It's a tough situation. I mean, Bill O'Brien's back is the OC. I think that it's just a question of not having big players step up. And if you look through the special years, right? The front runner years for all of us. Not all of us, Suzy. Not all of us. For all of us in New England.

All of you. Yeah. Whether it was Wes Welker. I mean, Edelman. We're not talking about prized draft picks from the top. These were not hurricane grads. These were not Michigan grads.

These were not Georgia grads, LSU grads. He seemed to have had a way of shopping, right? Shopping for the groceries to use the old... Wasn't that the Parcells thing?

If I'm in charge of making the meals, I want to buy the book. But it seems like right now, I don't know if he's just hitting Costco too late, getting past produce. But is it that... Is it the injuries like Judon? Is it that they don't have the players in place? Or is it that he picked the wrong quarterback? Or maybe yes and yes and yes. I mean, yes, I do think injuries are part of it.

Yes, there's a lot that just doesn't seem to be sinking up there. And I'm not convinced Mac Jones is the right quarterback. By the way, while we're on the topic of the Patriots, and I've shared now the secret, which is I think the world of Robert Kraft, I think the world of Jonathan Kraft, and that special moment, which I didn't do a great job explaining, because it kind of came out a little bit flibberti gibberti.

It was a very special moment. Since we're talking the topic of the Patriots, I want to talk for a moment about Tom Brady's perspective, purchase of a limited interest in the Raiders. Yes, please. Okay.

A lot of people think my reaction to that would be no, no, no, no, no, I don't like that. Let me tell you something. I hold no ill will whatsoever against Tom Brady. Tom Brady did in that cold, snowy New England game exactly what every fan of every team would want his or her quarterback to do. If you are a fan of a football team, you want your quarterback to do what Tom did. So there's a lot to discuss as relates to that potential interest purchase. But I hold no will against Tom. So tell me what do you think is happening?

Because you did mention when we were sitting before that there has been somewhat of a holdup, right? Um, league rules as relates to team ownership. You are required to have what is designated as a controlling owner with respect to the Raiders.

That is Mark Davis, the Davis family. Mark and Carol Davis own that interest. But Mark is a designated controlling owner. There are also multiple other owners. Minority partners are sometimes called limited partners. Sometimes they're partners. Sometimes it's a corporation. So they're not technically partners, but they're partners in the non-legal sense. Those who don't own the controlling interest pay less.

They get what's referred to as a minority discount because if you don't have control and you have no path to control, you should be getting a discount for the interest you purchase. I handled a sale of 20% of the Raiders for Al. He decided at one point, given the death of some of our limited partners, long story short, aim, you got to sell 20% of the team for me. We didn't have an investment bank. I was his little one person investment bank and sold that 20% interest.

And you know what? There was a discount applied to it because it was a limited partnership interest, which had no control associated with it and no path to control. The issue with respect to Tom in the Raiders is this. There are owners in the league and executives in the league office who believe that the discount being offered Tom for that is too substantial a discount.

And that's what apparently is a holdup. And he gets the discount because he's Tom Brady and because he's value added. Is that why he gets the discount?

Two reasons. One, any minority purchaser is going to get a discount because they're buying a minority interest and interest that carries with it, no control and no path to control. Look, if I came in right now and said, I want to buy a piece of the rich and Susie or Susie and rich media empire, because by the way, that's what people magazine called it. It is an empire.

Yeah, you're, you're, I read that and people magazine, you guys are building a media empire. If I said to you, I want to buy a piece of your empire and you said, well, aim, you can buy a small piece, but you're going to have zero control and you're going to have zero path to control. Okay, then what's my minority discount? What's my discount for not having any control or path to control? Tom should get that discount.

There may well be not may well it's apparent. There's also baked into that a discount because of the reason you stated value added. He's going to bring marketing and marketing opportunities and publicity opportunities, but there are those within league circles who believe the discount being offered is too substantial.

Not that there shouldn't be a discount because there should, but that it shouldn't be as much as is being offered really quickly. What do you get for minority ownership? Like what do you actually get out of that?

Such a great question. Um, you know, from an economic standpoint, you get asset growth. So if you purchase a limited partnership interest aim, I should, I keep using partnership because the Raiders are a partnership, but there are other teams that are structured differently.

They're C corporations or S corporations. We could have a whole business podcast. So horrible. Um, I've already tuned you out. Uh huh. Keep going. Did you hear that? Everyone just tuned me out. I think it's time for me to shorten this. No, no, I really want to hear about it.

I'm just joking. So what do you get? You get the buyer hopes, asset growth.

So I buy in at X and by the time I'm out, it's X times something substantial. How much money are we talking? Like, what do you think Tom's putting in? Any idea? I don't know. I don't know.

And I, you know me, I went to law school. I don't speculate. I might speculate in the back room, but I'm not speculating publicly. I actually, I don't speculate.

Um, I just, I'm trying to get relatable. Here's what else I get. They get inner circle access. So you purchase that limited interest, limited partnership interest, minority stake in a team. You're going to sit in a nice suite. You're going to have access to the locker room after the game. You're going to get to fly on the team plane, um, things like that.

But nobody's spending the kind of money that a lot of people spend if they don't also think there's going to be asset growth. Can I tell you, I was in a doctor's office because I'm sure this happens to you all the time, right? I don't know where I'm in the doctor's office. Usually it's like, can I have tickets? Like, can you get me tickets now? I want to go to this. I'm a big Broncos fan. Can I have tickets? I'm going to, I'm in this office. The guy says to me, you know, I have a million dollars that I want to invest in the Broncos.

Can you hook me up with the Broncos? I want to buy into some ownership for a million dollars. I said, you might as well buy it. The janitor's closet. If they're a million dollars, you're not even getting the janitor's closet.

So ridiculous. I mean, that's, that's what I'm saying, right? You're not getting the janitor's closet for that. Look, the assets have grown tremendously. By the way, remember I talked a couple of weeks ago about there's no such thing as a humble brag because that's an oxymoron. If you're going to brag, brag, but it ain't humble to brag. So I'm just going to brag at the time that I sold that interest for Al, that 20% highest price ever achieved for the sale of a minority interest.

And what was it? I'm not at that. I can't say actually. No Sue's actually the, I know you like me to sometimes be chattier and I'm learning that and I'm going to be, but not when there's a confidentiality agreement in place. Cause I don't want your media empire sued. No, please don't. But I just think it's so funny.

And I'm, I think that was helpful. Like you gave us a window into what you actually get because it's an astronomical amount of money and a lot of it is vanity. Well, you know, there's an expression and I know there's kids listening, so I won't use the real world cause we are the real word because we want kids to keep listening and Leslie Visser. Leslie Visser does not like it when we swear. She gets very mad.

I did once hear her once in all the years I've known her use a swear word once and that's how I knew, Ooh, this is a big deal. But you know, sometimes there's just what's called F U money. That's true.

And that's really what this is all about. When Michael Irvin joins us, we will talk more about this too as well because I'll be anxious to hear what he has to say about this as well. So much I want to talk to Michael about that Miami game. My brain would have exploded if I was a Miami fan. Um, and I'm going to give him a magic wand.

Ooh, good. Did you ever look at Irvin? Did Al ever want Irvin to be a Raider? Oh, we looked at Irvin a lot, mostly when he was across the field.

First year back in Oakland, first year back, Dallas comes into play us. Michael averaged a lot of yards per catch that day. I can still picture him on the field right now. But did Al ever want him? Did he ever try to get him?

Would he have liked to have him? Absolutely. Positively. Yes. Did we tamper with him? No. Oh, you're such a lawyer.

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Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Suzy Schuster and Amy Trask present offbeat conversations and expert sports commentary as they ask, what the football? When my family found out how long it took me to figure out why Charles Woodson named his wine intercept. They said, there's a reason that you had trouble in school. You know, not everyone knows, you know, what they think about intercepting. They don't know that I played football. Well, what I've learned is a smooth defensive back can make smooth wine.

That's what it's all about. What the football with Suzy Schuster and Amy Trask. The podcast is available Tuesday, wherever you listen.

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He's also my father. Seasons one and two are available to binge right now and bonus episodes are coming soon. Imperative Entertainment presents in the red clay. Get the podcast wherever you listen. And Michael Ervin as promised joins us here on what the football happy to have you with us Michael as always.

Thanks for taking the time. Susie, you know, I will do anything and I literally literally mean anything for you. I literally mean that I love it. Love you love rich. So I'm just happy to be here with you guys.

I'm so glad to hear it Michael. We want to talk to you about what's happening with Dallas. Let's just face it because Jerry Jones says he's not panicked coming off of the most lopsided upset in the Niners Cowboys history, but Michael should he be panicking? Well, there's a lot of football to play, right? And we see Dallas just play clearly.

Clear the best football team in the National Football League right now and they happen to have played their best game. Now that means does that mean Dallas is quit? Let's get out right now because the best team just beat us.

No, that's not how this process works. You still get back in. You get the grind and you get to the play on now me as a cowboy fan. I don't want to see him anymore. I hope somebody beat him before we have to play him again.

If you know what I mean, you start looking at that route because right now I didn't see anything that will save Dallas whatever have a chance to beat that team presently constructed. Okay, Michael, notwithstanding that when I look at you, I'm still having visions of our first year back in Oakland when you came to play us and I feel like you should still be running unimpeded up and down the field as you did that day because you were unstoppable. Notwithstanding that, I'm going to give you a magic wand right now. You're getting a magic wand. You are in charge of the Cowboys. In fact, because I'm giving you this magic wand, you are now the owner of the Cowboys.

You haven't beaten the 49ers in the last two playoff meetings, nor did you beat him this season. What changes would you make to turn that around? As I said, man, it's hard to see anything you can do with the Roos, with the Roos as they are right now. But I mean, Jerry in the first half, we got to go inside and clean up the things that we didn't do well. And there are a lot of things they didn't do well. They got so out coached. I mean, so out coached.

It's one thing to lose a hard-fought game tooth and nail back and forth, but when you see guys running that wide open, that means Cal Shanahan took Mike McCarthy and Dan Quinn and spanked both of them right on their tails. So you make me the owner. You make me an owner. What I see here presently constructed is, all right, I got to say I'm pitching all in right here. I believe Dallas, no, no, no, no, no, no. The world believes.

The people on the outside believe. I know. I know. A man's opinion is only as good as his knowledge based on the subject. And we're talking about getting a championship.

I got a knowledge based on that subject. I know Dallas need more outside playmakers, outside playmakers. We just hadn't gotten any production out of Michael Gallo and Brandon Cooks that will support what they're trying to do. You know, so, so you can, you can go inside and say, I can improve those two while I'm looking over the next few weeks before I get that trade deadline. And if none of that happens, I got to go out and get me some help to make sure I have something for that stretch run.

That'd be the first thing I do. I will look at those outside receivers and the production that's around the CD language. So you're talking about getting production. You're talking about some players who aren't playing up to their abilities.

I mean, how do you get them to do so? I mean, you, you're a guy who played at the top of his ability for almost the entire time. What does he, what's, what's going on with McCarthy that they're not playing to the top of their ability? Well, and, and that has all something to do with it because the coach's job is to find out what is the top of each ability.

Everybody doesn't have a top ability in all areas. And then you let's manufacture things in the area of his greatness. So we can always feel confident doing what he does. And, and, and I don't know that's being done. You know, you're not, you, it's not, you may have a scheme or something that you want to put together, but you might have got to make sure you put the right people in the place to produce what you're trying to get done. Like early on in the season, we had Brandon Cooks running crossing routes.

Let me, let me give them to you. That's not what he wants to do. Let me get on wrong to you. That's not what Brandon Cooks made a living in during all his career. He wants to go up the field. He's a speed guy.

We are always in his lead trying to find that next Tyreek Hill, but what makes Tyreek Hill so unique is yes, he can piece out and run right by you, but he will run a crossing route and it makes it hard to stop with a guy that fast and really go across the middle and catch a crossing route. And Dallas just, they need more help on the outside, I believe. Well, and Michael's absolutely right. The best coaches, best position players to be their best. And the question is, can Mike and Dan do that moving forward this season? Dan has done a wonderful job with that over the last few years. So I don't want this last one or this, this game to say, ooh man, I'll start snatching them.

And Coach McCarthy, I like some of the things he had done. He wanted to tie in their offense with the rest of the team so they could play what we call complimentary football, slow it down so we don't wear the defense out, you know, because Cal, Cal and Morton was putting up too much, too many points and wasn't, wasn't considering the defense. And, and I'm saying that's fine in theory. I always tell people, I don't let stuff you say it's fine in theory until you get into the real game.

You got to do what you have to do. And obviously you see right there trying to hold a ball or play complimentary football against San Francisco has been going to work because you're not going to be able to get eight yards on first down, running the ball seven yards on first down. Now you're playing into their hands with all those quick three and outs that Dallas had early on without taking more chances going up the football field.

So you got to learn all of that as part of the process. So Mike McCarthy has to know that you come back up against San Francisco, drop that conservative stuff. Let's see, let's put it in here.

Yeah. I'm glad you just mentioned if they come up against San Francisco again, because what I was about to say is a shout out to the Dallas Cowboys. If you are going to meet San Francisco again in the playoffs this season, you should give Michael a jingle because he can give a lot of wisdom to, to coach McCarthy. You know, I was wondering, but listen, let me tell you, wisdom is one thing.

It's like I talked to those guys in Colorado. This game is different. Our game is different. And what I saw is not just lacking skill.

I saw lack of will, lack of want. You know what I mean? And I was telling those guys that what makes our game different is most people in this world will reach the top of their profession or the top goals and they'll punch a computer or maybe they direct things. But, but it's not like what we do.

What we do is hand in hand and hand in hand come back. So that means in order for me to succeed, I'm going to miss another man that he wants to succeed. So in most words, if you prove your skill, you can get to the top.

But in this world, you can improve your skill, but you have to also deepen your will since you're going up against a grown man that wants to feed his family, that wants a great life. And even though we can work on the skill side for the Dallas Cowboys, I question the will. I didn't see enough want to in that situation, to be totally honest with you, that it will take it from the 49ers. I just didn't see it. So does Dak Prescott have the will Michael?

What are you seeing from him? I know that wants to win. I got wants to win. But Suze asked anybody in the world if they want to win.

And everyone will tell you yes. I don't need people that want to win. I need people that want to win more than any damn body.

More than every damn body. That's the person that you want to play with, play for, have on your team, quarterback your team, play around with your team. I want all them jokers on my team, if you know what I mean. Everybody want it. It's what are you willing to do today to get it? Man, let's go get it.

Let's do that to go get it. Yeah. I mean, Michael, it's no different than talking to your kids. I always say like, action's not words. You can say that you want to win, but it's putting that performance together on the field. And we see Dak go out there week in and week out, and he comes out and you expect to see this elite player. And this past Sunday, and we taped this on Tuesday leading into week six, we just don't see that.

Do you think we're ever going to see that? Like, what's your level of confidence in Dak Prescott? I think my level of confidence in Dak executing what you have around him, if you have what's adequate around him, I can believe he can do that. If you're asking me, do I have a level of confidence that Dak can do what Patrick Mahomes does? No, no, I don't have a level of confidence in Dak.

You see what I mean? Patrick Mahomes, the way he's buying time, he's getting you a second, third, or fourth play within every play. Dak doesn't move around. He doesn't have that kind of just pizazz in his game, always looking at the field and making all those off-target throws.

You know, he just doesn't have that. But you put the right people around Dak, you put a solid team around Dak, and then, yes, Dak can win football games, he can win championships. Now the question is, because you, listen, when we start breaking this down, you make one of two things. You say, okay, I either got to go get some more players around the quarterback, or I got to go get a new quarterback.

And I'm going to tell you something right now. You'd rather search for the players around than search for a new. Until you can find or try to find a better player than Dak Prescott, I don't care to hear people always talking about, do you believe in Dak? Can Dak get it done? That's all we got right now. That's what we got. Yeah, you better believe in him. Let's get the people around him.

It's the reality to it. Michael, two things. Number one, you are singing my song because, in essence, you just said my words, which is, and do what? Before you can decide if you want to move on from Dak, you got to ask and do what?

Who can you get that's better? And I want to tell you something. When you were just talking about a difference between saying, sure, I want to win because everybody wants to win and wanting to win more than anything, you gave me goosebumps.

And if I was on the sideline, I would run in and block for you. Well, it's because that matters. You know what that is, to drive and to want something. As soon as you know, you got to work to get where you are, so you know what that is. And one thing Bishop said to me, I heard my Bishop say, I said, man, you know, work so hard. Any father, any father that's worth anything ultimately, ultimately wants to work hard and he wants to raise it up. And then he wants to take it as high as he can, but he wants his kids to use that seal as their floor and whatever he leaves, take it higher. You know what I'm saying?

Use my ceiling as your floor and go do some things with it. That's what all great fathers do. So you want, you know what winning is. You want to pass that on to your kids.

I want to pass it on to my kids. But in giving our kids something, Bishop and I talked about this. We said we gave them something we wanted to give them because we didn't have anything. So we want to make sure they have something. Sometimes the best thing we could have given them was the struggle. Because the struggle sometimes gives you that hunger that we were talking about, that will to match the skill, the gift card that you're giving. You know what I mean?

So it's important to get that sometimes to have that struggle. So Michael, earlier in the podcast, Amy and I were talking about the last years of Al Davis's life when she was by his side, when he wanted to win. I love Al. I love Al. What's your best memory of Al? What's your best memory of Al first?

Oh God, it's so funny. Was I about to say something? Well, I was just going to say he loved you as well, Michael. And you were someone that I spoke with Al about. And I just want you to know that that love was reciprocated. Oh man, let me tell you something.

He was the best man. It's so funny. I promise you, it's so funny you mention this. God, I was, you remember last week before they played in the game, Michael Tumblin said to one of the Ravis players, you're not a Ravis.

You're not a Ravis. Everybody was talking about that, what Michael Tumblin said. And they were asking me, my producer, they said, has anybody ever said anything?

I started laughing. They said, you know, we used to say something to you, to me, was Al Davis. When Al Davis walked around, you warm it up, you know, and he would walk by. And this was an honor because he would say this to a few players. And we all used to talk about it. He'd walk by and say, when you're warming up right before a game, you know, you're a Raider. You'll be a Raider one day.

Don't worry. And they just walked off. So it became like a thing, like, you know, and that's why all, like all great players, you know, I used to retire and go to the Raiders, you know, that became the thing. Al used to walk, Al was walking around, I don't know if I'm calling him out, that's tampering right now, but I'll tell you what he used to do. You know, he used to walk around and say, you know, you know, because he, he knew what we're talking about. He only wanted players that wanted it, that really wanted it.

And he would be taking them out, moving around. It was cool. And I always remember that because I consider that to be an honor that he considered me to be that. Well, and I want you to know, I said with a very straight face earlier in the podcast, and I'm fortunate that I wasn't hit by lightning. Oh no, no, Al would never have tampered with Michael, but you know what? You know what?

The statute of limitations has run on tampering. So what the heck? And he did love you, Michael.

And that was computer Casey. It's funny though. It's funny. But now even today, even today, you had more of relationships with the owners of the teams then. It becomes, you know, it's become now like Jerry and I, you know, I can talk to Jerry now, but you got all these layers between players and always such a big business.

But, but man, it was great to sit out with Al and Jerry when they would walk on the football field. I always told people, you know how you sit, what are the owners doing in the field? I said, why would you not want them?

I said, wait a minute. Wait, I want them to practice. Because I'm blushing my ass in practice and they seeing me work hard. When I come in and talk about my money, we should all maybe be on one accord. Y'all in practice. Y'all start with practice in game.

I'm going to write that check. Why does that not work in there? You know what I'm saying? I never understood that, but I loved having him. So Jerry is the same kind of passionate owner that Al was. And you know that he wants to win now. He learned everything from Al.

He learned everything from Al. Trust me, y'all. I just don't say it that way. He's just passionate. I'm telling you that he'll tell you that.

I'm not telling you anything different. That was his guy. That was his guy. He'll tell me, Michael, I'm going to reach out to Al and we'll see him. Let's see what he said. That's how he used to talk.

He loved that. So do you think though that he can win with this team that he's built right now? Yeah. Well, they sure need to win. What we're talking about is winning Super Bowl.

That's what I'm talking about. Are they built to win the Super Bowl? Well, they're built to win. We just saw right now a lot of things that say you're not ready to win a Super Bowl in the game that they just played. Now, the question is, as you continue to make this race towards week 17, towards the end of the season, can you correct those things and get them better?

Can you stay healthy, correct those things? You don't get out of the race because you never know what's going to happen on the other side. We'll have injuries, we'll have situations going on. So yeah, that first thing to do is win, win in the regular season.

You'll give you an opportunity to possibly win Super Bowls. So yes, they have the chance to get the Super Bowl. They have to win now.

And right now they have to show people that they can win because whatever game plan San Fran just put on them, they'll see next week. Who do you think is the MVP so far? Could it be Brock Purdy?

To me, I'm saying Brock Purdy. Everybody else has been up and down. See, I keep telling people, you guys got to stop. We're looking, we're a world of Instagram and it's a moment and we want the moment and we want this moment. It's the moment here and this and TikTok and all of this flashing. And when we wake up, we go scrolling through moments and moments. So even like an MVP, we are looking for, well, what do you do? What was the dynamic moment? What's the dramatic moment?

What the hell? We talking about persistency at its highest level. This dude is running this offense in a manner that no, I've never seen anyone running. This is close to Joe Mostow. Joe Montana when he ran this offense. This West Coast offense has always been an offense. It says has answers for every problem that a defense presents. But the quarterbacks that always run these offenses don't find those answers.

Brock Purdy has found those answers every time. He's just 12 and 0. Since he started playing, he gave me started finishing Patrick Lawson. People want to take credit away because Kyle Shanahan is his quarterback, is his OC. But they don't take credit away from Patrick Mahomes and he got Andrew Reid because they see Patrick Mahomes doing their dynamic things. But it's a great combination, Patrick Mahomes and Andrew Reid. Kyle Shanahan and Brock Purdy is a great combination. Kyle Shanahan gets to play quarterback through Brock Purdy.

That's what you're seeing. And it's masterful to watch. It is masterful to watch. And I believe absolutely right now he's the MVP. And I'm gonna tell you this, I'll take him in San Francisco. I'll take that and him in that offense over anyone, over anyone. I will take him in San Francisco or in that offense over Patrick Mahomes in that offense.

And you know, Michael, you make a great point, which is that two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Yes, he has a terrific coach. Yes, the defense is just wowee.

That's my mom's word. Spectacular. Yes, he's got tremendous, tremendous skill positions all over the field. But that doesn't mean he's not also very, very, very exceptionally good. In other words, it doesn't have to be either or.

It doesn't have to be, is it Brock or is it the defense and the coach and the skill positions? It's all of the above. Well, and listen, let's not let these people, there's, there's a, in the Bible, we call it dynamis, downtown. We call him dynamis because he's one way, this way, this way, the other way. And that's what I call some of those people.

That says, you're speaking out of one side of your mouth one time and then the other side of your mouth. All day, every day, what do you say? The quarterback is the most important position without the quarterback. And now this kid comes along because everybody missed him. So if he's somebody great, that means we all must be not as great as we think we are.

And we refuse to just accept the reality that, hey, this is that and let it go. And he's, now we'll say the quarterback ain't the most important position. Well, look at all he has around him. Stop.

We already declared they're the most important. He, you can have that same team and virtually they all did. Jimmy Garoppolo had that same team.

It didn't look like this. Before we let you go, Michael, a guy we want to talk about is Deion Sanders, because you were just there in Colorado. You were just there with him talking to the team. So I want to know what that experience was like.

And also what are you seeing in your former teammate who has taken on a larger than life persona as a head coach now? You know, it's great. It's so funny that I said I was talking to somebody about that the other day. You know, I'm getting old at 57.

We're talking about Dick Buckus. You know, God bless him. We went from time to eternity the other day and we were talking about what was the greatest thing? What have been your most happy about?

And you know what I was saying, the things I'm most happy about? Of course, God has blessed me in mighty ways and taken me from that 15 or 17 kids of Fort Lauderdale. He gave me a pretty good life. But beyond my life, I've been a great witness of some spectacular journeys.

Spectacular journeys, when I think about it. You know, I remember playing a Troy Aikman in college and he was killing us at Oklahoma. And then, you know, we were like, we're gonna get two of them.

We actually did break his leg and won the game. And, you know, and years later we ended up on the same team in Dallas. And he goes on and he's doing great things. You know, we talked then when we were young about some of the things we wanted to do.

So I got a chance to witness his whole journey. And it was my, as rookie, as rookie, he was my roommate. He walked in and said, I'll never forget, as he walked in, I say, dude, we had won three games, my rookie year, three and 13. One game, one game, the second year we won in 15. And we drafted this joker.

And he's my roommate. Our first game, I'm sorry. What you got for this? What you want to do, man? What you want to do, right? He said, I'm going to become the all-time leader of Russia. I said, wait, we're going to win the Super Bowl? Dude, we won four games in two years. We won four games? I want you to understand, we can be realistic on the journey we have. We're talking about right now.

What are we trying to do? But he became the all-time leading Russia. And we did win Super Bowls. Deion, it's the same way. You asked about Deion. Deion was playing. We, you know, I go back to high school, heard about and played against him in college. I put Deion on the map.

You go back to his rookie year. I ran an out and up. Guys, listen to me.

I swear to you. We talk about this all the time. With Miami and Florida State, I ran an out and up on Deion right there in the Orange Bowl. And I had him, it was already talk about it because we were close. I said, oh, they're going to be playing each other.

They'll be playing each other. And I said, he'll be ready. I told the coaches, listen, let's get him early. We ran an out and up.

He bit on that out right arm. I turned and went up. I had him beat. I said, oh, I got this, Joe.

Pat Crow, Pat Crow. I said, and Vinnie. Vinnie threw the ball. I said, throw it. Vinnie threw the ball.

This Joe turned around. I'm looking at him in the football. He's running the football down. Come on, ball.

Come on. He ran it down. Push me down. Talk the ball.

I'm on the ground. He's running the other way. I said, look at this joker run with my football. That picture was on Sports Illustrated.

That was his first interception in college. So we joke about I put him on the map and then I brought him to Dallas. You know, I recruited him to Dallas and brought him in. And I said, man, you get here, you gonna love it. And when he got here and we were playing together after battling each other all the time, you know, we said, man, why you gotta keep fighting?

Let's just get together and do great things. Man, I just love him so much. Now I'm gonna tell you guys, everything he's doing, he's always done.

I started this talking about the journey that I've witnessed. Deon brought kids. When we were playing here in Dallas, he would bring kids out of the ghettos and places that he knew were not good, move them in his house, put them in schools, give them a better opportunity to go to college and everything. Devin Hester from Miami, I asked him about it. Always he did it for a lot of guys.

A lot of guys. So what he's doing is what he always wanted to do, what God says he should be doing. He's walking his journey. Those are my greatest things. I get to see great. Darrell Johnson, who took a full back and turned it into one of the great broadcasting careers. Measure that on distance travel and seeing that, you know what I mean?

So I'm blessed to have witnessed great men that have great journeys and they've accomplished some great things. Michael, you brought it up. You said the M word. You said Miami.

What the hell happened against George attack? Are you trying to make Michael's brain explode? Are you trying to ask, I had to Michael gives us his time and you're making his brain explode. But the true form is what I'm saying here. What you just asked, but that's so I have a poll here because what we just talked about the brilliance that are coming into the game, the smart men that are coming into the game, these thinkers, and what do they do? Sometimes your greatest asset. I don't care who you are, what you're doing.

You are trying to mitigate this to make sure your greatest asset don't become the greatest liability. So you're so smart. You don't want to listen to anybody. You want to listen to nobody.

You ain't even listening to statistics. I know what I'm doing. I'm so smart. And then you make a bad call like that. You make a bad call, you know, and you, you saw my God, man, what is that? Just like, you know, I'm monumental. That decision was monumental. Now, all you gotta do is take a knee.

You win this game. Now it's not the first time, you know, it's happened before with, with coaching. Everybody started talking about better than the other before, you know, at least coach did get up there. So I learned my lesson. The last time this happened, he said, you know, he, I think he tries to instill a mentality that we never take the knee. We never kneel. We never give in, you know what I mean? So I understand one thing on the other side, but this side, this is you, you gotta say, okay, this was a long, hard fault game right here. Let's get out of this right now. We've got to tie it. Take that knee.

Let's get out of it. It just didn't work. And then on the other end, the defense, I don't know how they let them go and score a touchdown. That was, that's another whole fault. So, so that was, that was a debacle. You could have gotten ranked in the top 10 after all of that, after all of that, you know, if you'd have won that game, all those teams that lost in the top 10, that was a great opportunity to Miami lost right there, losing that game. And they should have, they shouldn't have lost that game. Well, I don't think it was just a bad decision.

I think it was mind-blowingly stupid. And if I were a Miami fan watching that game, my brain would have exploded. It is one thing to lose a game because you don't match up man-to-man because you can't cover the other teams receivers because you can't block their rushers, but to lose a game because of stupidity is mind-blowingly just my mind brain would have exploded. And you know what I feel really badly for the kid who fumbled. Yes, he fumbled, but they never should have run the play.

I feel badly for him. Coach's job is to put them in position to win. And that was not, you knew you'd give this ball, give this ball to Duke. There's only one thing that everybody's going to be after is that football right now, not tackling him, not anything. You know what I mean? That's the only thing that could change this game right now is getting that football out of his hands.

And what do you do? Run the football in it. All you got to do is it's crazy.

It's absolutely crazy. And I don't know, I'm thinking it's the running back. What's the running back just got it in there, fell down. You know what I mean?

But you know, I don't know. He has to play hard. That's what the coaches tell him to do. It was just bad.

It was bad. I would have fired the coach on the spot. I would have fired the coach on the spot.

Now, you know, there were times I would have done things like run down on our field and Al had to stop me from doing it, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? Miami and Miami just gave Chris Ball what, $80 million? Yeah, they got a lot. They got a lot. There's a lot in there.

There's a lot in there. Michael, Michael, would you coach? Would you coach? Oh, I've had opportunities and you know what?

Oh my God. So yeah, I've had opportunities and thought about it one time. I thought about it one time, wanted to do it one time when I had a conversation with Roger.

Roger could tell about it because I was going to leave business. I was working, you know, network that I wanted to go over and probably, I just, I did, I just MC'd Ken Noyne's 50th birthday party. You know, you 50 going through things. What are my life? What kind of, kind of legacy? What did I do here?

All of that stuff. And then all of those players were coming up to Ken Noyne, you know, Ken Noyne and I came into Dallas together. We were boys coming in 88. I was the first round draft choice.

He was the second. So we became real boys. We were tight. He was on offense.

I was on offense, he was on defense. So we always see it. We started to turn around, you know what I mean?

Cause you know, we were Tom Landry's last draft choice. Yeah. And we, we always bonded by that, you know? So, so, so I did a 50th and all those, all those guys came up and talked about what he meant to them and, and, and how they would not be who they are without him. And I don't know that people understand how powerful that is. You know, most of us, we won't know the effects we had on people's lives around us until we leave time and we go to eternity. And we're looking back on times. Oh, I didn't know I meant that at all. I didn't know I meant that.

That's what you're going to get mostly. But this was an actual end time while you're in time. And grown men who other people look up to are telling my boy Ken what he meant to them. You know, and I think about what my coaches mean to me and all that stuff. And I was like, wow. And then I talked about, it's so funny because even when I, soon after that, I went and met with Roger and I wanted to go coaching and Roger said, he did tell me, he said, Mike, I kind of liked where we got you right now.

I thought we'd give him that. And he made me see it a different way, which I appreciate. He made me see where I am a different way. But, but, but, but I have had opportunities. You know, Jerry has said something to me about it and here as of late, here as of late, quietly, quietly, when I had, you know, had a situation here. And I was visiting with Dionne since you asked about Dionne and I hope her sister and I, she pulled me aside and said, I don't know what's going to happen with everything, but you know, I thought Dionne should get you working. I said, okay, thanks man. I appreciate it.

You know, I appreciate it. But of course I've gone back to working, but, but yeah, you know, I listen, coaching is so great. I speak about it. It's the greatest thing in the world.

It really is. I did a speech in Kansas City for Les Miles and the coaching convention. I titled it the greatest occupation, the most important occupation in our country.

I subtitled it the gathering, guarding, and guiding of our youth. And that's exactly what coaches and teachers do. You know what I mean? So, so it is the greatest, the greatest position and what Dionne's doing with it is incredible.

And Dionne's breaking the mold in this, this sense. No more. When I, when I, when I gave that speech, when I gave that speech, let me tell you how I started. I said, if you are not prepared to be the coach, the mama, daddy, brother, sister, cousin, niece, nephew, uncle, a mentor, a counselor, because that's what a coach is now and then. That's what a coach is. If you're not prepared to be that, get up and get out right now because you're just wasting my words because that's what a coach is. No, you know, every time someone gets our teacher, every time someone makes it somewhere, they, they, they stand up.

They want to think they can coach our teacher because that's who helps them get there. So that position is changing. Dionne's changing in a sense. No more we're standing off and everything and, and, and, and, you know, you making yourself to me. Now Dionne is coming to them.

Dionne gets to talk to his players. One player, he said, I know your mom's working two jobs, man. She's out here busting her butt so you can have an opportunity. You think you've given her the effort. You see what I'm saying? That's a different perspective. That's a different perspective. That, that, that's, that's intimacy with your players. The word intimacy is getting to me and seeing who's inside of them, seeing what really matters to them. And that means he can pull the best out of them.

That's a different place. Michael, I love that you took the time to be with us. These stories are fantastic and we so appreciate your time, honey.

And you'd be an excellent, excellent coach. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys. Thanks for taking it. Thanks for having me.

Love you right back. Michael Irvin on what the football thanks again to Michael Irvin for his time here on what the football always appreciate some moments with the playmaker. And as we wrap up this edition of what the football, just a moment of appreciation for Colorado Buffalo's wide receiver, Jalen Ellis, who took time out of his week to rescue, not just a dog, but a cat.

Amy, that's the kind of guy that we want to hear from here on what the football and not just a cat, although that would be magnificent in and of itself, a kitten that he identified as roughly two weeks old. He was out enjoying some nature by himself in a wooded area. And he saw a dog and he looked around and realized there's no one else in this entire park. There's no other cars here.

It's just me. Someone abandoned this dog. So he saved and rescued and cuddled and, and embraced the dog and then saw an itty bitty kitten who he also took home. He saved these animals. I love him. I love him. I love him. Not in a weird or creepy way, but I love him.

I love him. He's keeping the dog. Jalen, keep the kitten too. And until you are out of college, I will pay all vet bills associated with that kitten.

You know what? You keep the kitten too. I'm going to pay all the vet bills for both of them until you're out of college. I love you. I love you. I love you.

And Khan, Schwartz, Marini, make sure you tell Jalen I love him and give him a hug for me when you were at the Buffalo's game with Deion Sanders this week. Yeah. I mean, that is it, right?

That has to be the Deion effect spreading over. We know that it is. And I really have to say for us who are, we're both huge dog rescue people. Do not buy a dog, rescue a dog, go to your shelters, find one there. And what she means by dog is dog and cat. We are both big animal rescue people. And you're absolutely right, Susie.

Adopt, don't shop. And I love this young man. I will root for him for his whole life, not only on the field, but off the field. And we love it.

We love it. Thanks again for taking in this edition of What the Football. We will see you each and every Tuesday. Have a great week, everybody. Every Monday, Rich Eisen and Chris Brockman react to what's happening in the world of football on overreaction Monday.

Dolphins final four AFC team. Oh, that is not an overreaction at all. I'm with you. You're in. I am in the other three final four teams. If you ask me to call my shot, this is the overreaction Monday podcast.

Call your shot. Entertainment purposes only unless I'm right. Chiefs, Dolphins, Bills, Ravens. Ravens. Final four. Overreaction Monday, the podcast, wherever you listen.