We Need a Fresh Pentecost

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. I've got some serious bad news for us today, but followed by good news because God gives grace to the humble. Hey friends, welcome to the broadcast. This is Michael Brown, so pleased that we have this opportunity together. Here's a number to call if you'd like to weigh in on the subjects we'll be discussing today, or if you have anything related to any subject we've talked about on the air in recent days, weeks, months, years, give me a call 866-348-7884.

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Okay, I do have a guest at the bottom of the hour. We'll talk about his new book on Pentecostal Fire. And whether you're Pentecostal Charismatic or not, I think you'll find the interview interesting and the book informative and stirring. But that's not where we're starting.

There is a report that has now been issued by Guideposts Solutions. This is a neutral third party that was brought in by Southern Baptist leadership, the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the nation's largest single Protestant organization, denomination, movement, whatever you want to call it, because it is not, it doesn't operate the way some other denominations do, but you all know what I'm talking about when I talk about Southern Baptists. So they commissioned Guideposts Solutions to look into many allegations about sexual abuse within their movement, which is what, about 15 million strong, if I'm correct.

So lots of churches, lots of missionaries sent out around the world, but America-based. And obviously you're gonna have scandals. You've got human beings, you're gonna have scandals. Right in the midst of the New Testament, you have scandals. Congregations Paul planted, you have scandals. That's gonna happen when you have human beings involved. I wish it wasn't the case, but that's the case. God chooses Israel, you have scandals.

Alright, that's the way it is. But when sexual abuse charges are pushed down, or hidden, where there isn't true repentance, where the victim now becomes the guilty party, where leaders conspire together to suppress negative stories or protect their own, that's when it crosses a very, very ugly and dangerous line. Let me say it again. Someone can fall, they can repent, they can humble themselves, they can make things right, there can be a path for restoration.

That can happen. And sadly, to say it again, when you have human beings, you're gonna have scandals, you're gonna have abuse, you're gonna have problems. That is the reality of life. Even in New Covenant life, even with the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we are still in this flesh, in this body.

And I don't say anything in a self-righteous way. My whole posture is, there I go, but by the grace of God. When you know your own weakness, when you know your own potential failings, and one of the first things I always teach, when I teach on these subjects, it can happen to any of us. You get low. You don't walk with a strut.

You walk with a limp. That being said, according to this lengthy report, several hundred pages, what SBC leaders conspired to get it to do is absolutely horrific. So you've got these women who came with with charges of sexual abuse. They were raped. They were abused by a pastor. We're not just talking about a pastor who maybe compliments someone on staff.

Hey, that's a beautiful dress, and she feels a little uncomfortable. No, no, we're talking about physical sexual abuse, and in some cases involving children. And according to the report, these things were swept under the rug. The women were basically silenced. The families were silenced.

The leaders, the men, were protected. There was a database that was kept to basically keep this thing in check rather than to deal with it effectively. So, I mean, this is really serious, and the SBC leaders that commissioned this report and funded it are just tumbling themselves and asking forgiveness and trying to do what they can to make things right with the victims, as I understand it. Why do I bring this up? Well, it's all over the news. It's another scandal, and you think, boy, that that's all that seems to be happening left and right.

You think of Hillsong now. You think scandal. You know, from a beloved apologist like Ravi Zacharias, you think scandal. From the former president of Liberty University, Jerry Folwell Jr., you think scandal.

It just goes on and on. Again, I don't say this to throw stones. I don't say this to say, oh, I'm holy and righteous and these terrible people. No, I'm saying this is us. This is the family.

This is the body. And you say, well, that's just these Protestants. Oh, well, there haven't been years, decades of sex scandals in the Catholic Church. So, the pointing fingers goes in all different directions, and it's ongoing.

It never seems to stop, and it seems to be going from bad to worse in certain ways. That's bad because it brings a lot of reproach to the name of Jesus. That's bad because you think of all these victims, especially these women and young people that were abused. That's bad enough.

We're seduced. That's bad enough, but then you add in on top of it that they were silenced or made to feel guilty or demonized. That's even worse. So, the victims, and then just the rot that creeps in when you've got people living in hypocrisy. You can't have the full blessing of God. So, these are major, major issues, and then you think of how fleshly many of us have gotten when it comes to politics. How much we became better known as members of a political party or followers of a political leader rather than followers of Jesus, that we seem to be more vocal about politics than about the Lord, and that we mingled everything in such a way that people felt, unless they agree with every one of our political stances, they're not welcome in our churches. There's a lot of egg on our face. Then you've got the well-known leaders who have, quote, deconstructed or deconverted that have now denied the faith.

There is a lot of egg on our face, and sadly we have brought reproach to the name of Jesus. I wrote about this last night. You can read the article on the website askdrbrown.org, askdrbrown.org.

Just look for the lead article. The article right before it, which is what we talked about yesterday, the compromised state of many of our pulpits, also ties in with this. So we've got to acknowledge this. When the children of Israel were in exile, here it is, the people of Yahweh, they're in exile. The temple of Yahweh is in ruins. It made him look bad. It made him look as if he was defeated.

It made it look as if he couldn't take care of his own. What kind of God is that? And the other gods, now they are triumphant. So our sin brings reproach to the name of the Lord. Isaiah 52, he says that his name was continually blasphemed. Ezekiel 36, his name was now defiled because of the defilement of his people and the sin of his people. So that's what's happened now, the beautiful, precious, glorious name of Jesus, Yeshua, our spotless Savior, our perfect Lord. His name has been sullied because of our sin.

You say, Mike, that that's not entirely fair because for every one that blew it, there are five or ten or twenty or thirty who didn't blow it. I understand that and I believe that. I was talking to Nancy today about the many fine people that we've worked with for so many years and have lived without scandal, marital, sexual, financial, and people I've worked with around the world for many, many years. According to everything I know, they've been godly people and good people. And I feel very confident that the great majority of Southern Baptist pastors are not engaging in sexual abuse. I feel confident that there are many fine believers within Hillsong that love Jesus and pastors that are not committing adultery. I don't question that.

And, you know, on and on it goes. So Ravi's name has been tainted, but there's so many fine apologists that I know. The problem is a few bad apples give all the apples a bad reputation. And right now, for me, the posture to take before America is we have sinned and we have brought reproach to the name of the Lord and we ask you to forgive us for our poor example. When I debated a gay activist in 2008 and he claimed to be born-again Christian, minister of the gospel, and gay with his partner, so of course we had a very open, deep disagreement over that based on the Bible. But I did say publicly, because the audience was half with me and half with him, we divided up the tickets for the event equally between us so that we could have a mixed audience. Our goal was to not just be preaching to the choir, respectively, but to speak to the other audiences. I got up and confessed the sin of the evangelical church, the sin of no-fault divorce, the sin of immorality in our own midst and said that we have set a bad example, as well as our often lack of love and grace towards those that identify as gay, making them feel as if they are the worst sinners on the planet, not welcome in our place. So I'm always going to take the low road in that regard.

But not to say they've done it, but we, that's our family. I can't conveniently step away. No, I don't simply identify as a Christian because there's so much misunderstanding with that, and I'll tell people I'm a Messianic Jew or a Jewish follower of Jesus, because often to a Jewish person when you say Christian means you're no longer Jewish, means you've cut off any connection with the Jewish people, or they think of the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. But on the other hand, I'm very happy to say I'm an evangelical Christian, meaning yes, part of the body, and holding it to these fundamental biblical beliefs. So I remember when when Jim Bakker, then Jimmy Swigert fell in the late 80s, the feeling I had was, we have sinned. No, I wasn't a TV preacher, but the feeling I had was, we have sinned. And that's how I feel now.

That's the bad news. There's egg on our face, we brought reproach to the name of Jesus. The good news is, judgment begins with the house of God, and God intends to bless if we will get low. And this could be the very precursor for revival that we need. This could be the final spark that gets us on our faces, repenting, seeking God, getting low, because it's out of the dust, out of humiliation, out of repentance, that God pours out supernatural grace, and it's in that environment that revival is often birthed. Lord, bring us to real repentance. Do it, Lord, and pour out your Spirit afresh, in Jesus' name.

We'll be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the broadcast.

Hey, a quick update. I've been in private communication with Pastor Greg Locke. I took very strong exception to some comments he had made last weekend, comments that I believed could easily incite people to physical violence, and he has subsequently said that was not his intent, says he was taken out of context, but we've been in private contact, and he's planning to come on the show as soon as we can set it up. It looks like it's gonna be next week, that's what we're hoping for, but he's eager to come on, answer questions honestly, and have a candid discussion, not a debate, not an attack either way, but a candid discussion to try to clarify things for the honor of the Lord and the good of the body. So it's going to be a very important interview for quite a few reasons, and we will keep you posted on that.

866-348-7884. I believe, personally, that the scandals of the late 80s, and here we had two or two biggest TV preachers involved in scandals, that those scandals helped to bring us to a deeper place of humility as a church in America, especially Charismatics, and to a deeper place of leaning on the Lord, and to a deeper place of crying out to him, and out of that brokenness God poured out his spirit. I truly believe that as someone who lived through it with a passion and hunger for revival the entire time, as someone who lived through it with great expectation of what God was going to do with outpouring of a spirit, someone who understands revival history and God's workings in revival, that to me was a natural pattern. God does not send revival to those who boast. God does not send revival to those who pat themselves on the back. God does not send revival to those who say, look, we've arrived. God sends revival to those who are broken. God sends revival to those who recognize their need. God sends revival to those who confess their sin. In fact, when revival begins, it often begins with a deepening of that confession, a deepening of recognition of sin and guilt, out of which there is a fresh and supernatural outpouring of grace. Let me read a verse to you, then I'm going to go to the phones.

Hang on, where, where, there we go. Okay, Isaiah chapter 57, verse 15, a verse that many of you know, and it's it's been a favorite of mine for many, many years within Isaiah. So, for thus said he, who high aloft forever dwells, whose name is holy.

So, this is the eternal holy God. Look at what he says, I dwell on high in holiness, yet with the contrite and the lowly in spirit, reviving the spirits of the lowly, reviving the hearts of the contrite. For, and this next verse, for I will not always contend that I will not be angry forever, no, I who make spirits flag also create the breath of life.

And then, the verse before it, the Lord says, build up, build up a highway, clear a road, remove all obstacles from the road of my people. Now, spiritually speaking, how are those obstacles removed as we humble ourselves, as we get low in repentance. Repentance prepares the way for the coming of the Lord.

I believe it was Frank Bartleman who journaled what happened in the Azusa Street revival and helped get word out around the world. I believe it was Frank Bartleman who said that the depth of any revival will be determined by the spirit of repentance that is obtained. So, if God puts his finger on you, on me, rather than make excuses, rather than us blame others, which is what human nature does, say we get on our faces and we say, Lord, guilty is charged of sin. We make things right with people where that's applicable and we confess and we receive cleansing and grace. And remember, God is delighted to preserve the honor of his son's name and things that are done in private that don't cross certain lines can be fixed in private.

You know what I'm saying? For example, if I was rude to someone on our ministry team one day, God forbid that would happen, but if I was rude to someone on the ministry team one day and it happened in private, I would go and sit with that person and say, I'm so sorry I was rude with you, I was inconsiderate, please forgive me. And you get fixed and you move on. You don't need the whole world to know that, you don't need to step down from ministry for ten years, right? So, wherever possible, where honor can be preserved, where things can be dealt with in private, they are.

There are other things that cross certain lines that you need to bring more people in on. There are other things that bring defilement in such a way that you have to step down from ministry or you have to go through a certain restoration season. But God's desire is not to expose our sin. God's desire is to forgive us and cleanse us and cover sin. But when others are hurt and it's not dealt with, you have these victims who have been abused and taken advantage of and there hasn't been repentance and they've been now demonized and there has not been proper restoration, etc. Well, those things are gonna come back to haunt us. So, let's humble ourselves before the Lord because he wants to.

He wants to pour out his grace afresh. Alright, one other thing and then we change topics entirely. I tweeted this out last night after I saw some headline about, another thing about pregnant man and it was some latest advertising campaign, I forget which the company was and they're celebrating all the pregnant people and pregnant men and that kind of nonsense. So, I tweeted this out, curious to see how long it would stay and right now it's 17 hours, it's still up. Which either means Twitter with the looming Elon Musk purchase is not cracking down on these things as much as they did before or someone on the left or with a big following has not reported it yet as offensive.

Either way, 17 hours we're still up. Just a reminder for everyone, brought to mind by a recent headline, feel free to repeat this out loud. There's no such thing as a pregnant man. There's no such thing as a pregnant man. There's no such thing as a pregnant man.

There is no such thing as a pregnant man. It's still up on Twitter. Isn't that something?

My account hasn't been blocked. I wasn't looking for trouble, I just wanted to state that and if that was gonna get me in trouble then let Twitter be exposed once again for their hypocrisy and their double standards. All right, let us go to the phones. Let's start in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Jerome, welcome to the line of fire. Dr. Brown, I thank God for your ministry. You've meant a lot to me over the years and what I'm trying to do is find out, you mentioned something I guess maybe a couple months ago, maybe a month ago, about charities that you give to and then, you know, some charities, most of the money that you send goes to administrative fees or whatever and I don't want to contribute to those but I was trying to find out some good charities that I need to, that I could send money to. Yeah, so there are many, many fine charitable organizations and it's not that most of the money goes to administration but it varies from one to another and some are really, really good and frugal. So I give the vast majority of my charitable giving and through our ministry to Fire International. This is our missions organization that supports our missionaries around the world, many of whom are doing extraordinary work, feeding the poor, educating the needy, fighting human trafficking, those kinds of things and I know the people personally, I've worked with them for many, many years but if you go to fire-international.org, fire-international.org, we can't put all the missionaries up there because some are in very sensitive countries and it's dangerous to make it known but if you start to look, you know, look at what Joanne is doing in Nigeria, look at what some of our folks are doing in India, the the band you found in India or some of the folks are doing the Philippines, different countries, you know, we've got missionaries in Ukraine, they've had to flee the country right now but they've worked with orphans and others over the years. So, and Fire International only takes 10% of everything that comes in for administrative reasons. Now, we can't operate on that, the team can't operate on that, so we have to raise extra money to support the workers, to support the missionaries but that's just our commitment to only take 10%. So, check that out, fire-international.org, sir. When you do, I can vouch for everyone that's out there on the field, you want to in particular get the ones that are overseas active right now, we have some folks back in the States who are in between serving in different places but those who are out on the field active and then whatever your area is of real interest, you know, whether it's education, whether it's feeding, whether it's planting churches, we've got folks doing those things, some of them doing all of the above. I mean, one of the ministries in the Philippines takes in orphaned children, some as young as three, have already been sold into human trafficking, have already been sold into sex trafficking, if you can imagine that, at two, three years old and then given over after that and then they're rescued by our people and raised in a godly environment, I mean, it's quite extraordinary. Anyway, fire-international.org, I encourage everyone to check that out, these are people worthy of support and they live simply, they live frugally, so the money is well invested. Thank you sir and thank you Jerome for the kind words, I really appreciate it, that we've been a blessing to you.

Alright, 866-348-7884, we'll get to some more calls a little later in the broadcast, so if you're holding, hang on and we'll get you a little later in the show. We come back, I want to speak with my friend Larry Sparks, he's written an important book on Pentecostal fire. Boy, we need the fire of the Spirit today. Whether you consider yourself Pentecostal or not, I think we agree, we need the fire of the Spirit to burn out sin in our midst and to create a deeper passion, hunger for the Lord, for the word, for the lost.

May Jesus be glorified in us. My buddy John Cooper, Skillet, will take us out at the bottom of the hour, we'll be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the Line of Fire. When you read the book of Acts, suddenly we are confronted with this holy glorious moment, Acts the second chapter, when the Holy Spirit is poured out, when tongues of fire come on the hundred twenty, and they begin to speak new languages, praising God in foreign tongues. When Peter gets up and preaches in the fullness of the Spirit, a message that brings such deep conviction to his Jewish audience that 3,000 fellow Jews hear the message, repent, and are immersed in Yeshua's name that very day. We think of that as Pentecost.

Pentecost is coming up again on the calendar, the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot, but it's not just something on the calendar, it's something in our history. For those of us who are Pentecostal Charismatic, it remains an important part of our history, believing that the fire of the Holy Spirit is supposed to burn brightly today, and even if you're not Pentecostal or Charismatic, I think you'd agree that something great is missing in much of the American Church today, and that we need a fresh moving of the Holy Spirit in our midst. My guest Larry Sparks has had a passion for revival for many, many years. He's an editor at Destiny Image Publishers. They published my book last year, Revival or We Die. They published, I think, every book I've written on revival, Destiny Image has published, so we've been co-workers of this for many, many years now, going back to 1989, and Larry's heart beats for Pentecostal fire in an unashamed way. Larry, welcome back to the broadcast. Thanks for joining us. It is such a joy and an honor to be with you, Dr. Brown. I was looking at my special bookshelf here, where I have all of my favorite books, and one of those that's always staring at me is Whatever Happened to the Power of God? So that's always fun to look at.

Yes, thanks. Yeah, going back to 1991, but still relevant today. Larry, this book, Pentecostal Fire, in many ways, represents your life message.

Why is that the case? Well, since I was 16 years old, backtrack all the way to growing up, I was brought up in a very nominal Catholic household. I never disbelieved in Jesus. I always believed that there was a God, I believed that there was Jesus, but I didn't have a real vibrant relationship with him. I went to evangelical school.

I got a lot of rules, regulations, don't do this, do that. I got a lot of Bible information, and that was great, but I never really had a dynamic relationship or experience with the living God until I was 16 years old at a church in South Florida, in the middle of praise and worship. I'll never forget it. I felt, and I just got to share what my testimony is, I felt electricity in my hands. I felt like burning in my heart. Nothing traumatic happened. I didn't fall down or shake, all of that.

I've done that since. I believe in that, but just that one touch of the Holy Spirit made Jesus so real that everything that I had studied about God, everything my Bible teachers had taught me about God, in that one touch of the Holy Spirit, I realized this God is real. He's got an idea. He's not a concept.

He's not like Santa Claus. He's not out in outer space somewhere. He's a real God who touches people, and thus that demands my life. So that happened in 1999, and really since then, the content of this book has been formulated, and it was only in the last year I felt the Holy Spirit give me a release to write it.

You know what's so interesting, Larry? I was doing a friendly debate with a non-charismatic pastor, and I asked him, do we have a relationship with the Bible, with the God of the Bible? So he was very clear that we have a relationship with the God of the Bible. So it's through the Bible, but with the God of the Bible, and that means that in a relationship, you experience relationship. You experience communion. You experience intimacy, and the whole anti-experience idea that many of us have, it's really foreign to the Bible because the Bible tells us about powerful experiences that men and women of God had throughout history, and then church history is filled with people's radical experiences, radical experience of conversion, or the fire of God falling in in their lives. You know, people like like Finney and Moody and others talked about these these things. So sometimes we're afraid of emotionalism or extremism or an experience-based faith, but if you have a Bible-based faith, you should experience God, correct?

That is true. I wrote in the first chapter, the title of the chapter is called We Need Pentecostal Fire, I wrote that the study of God, theology, should be the invitation to enter an intimate experiential relationship with God. So that's a hundred percent right in that I love theology. I prize solid biblical theology. I got my Master's of Divinity from Regent University, my advisor was Dr. Vincent Sinan who wrote Century of the Holy Spirit, one of the great charismatic Pentecostal historians. I love theology gives me parameters in which I can safely and legally encounter the Holy Spirit. I don't want to go, I don't want to go outside of what the Bible clearly says is available, but everything I read in Scripture tells me, wow, this God is a real person and he invites me to know him experientially.

Yeah, very very well said. I love the way you frame that in your book, Pentecostal Fire. So if someone says to you, what exactly is Pentecostal Fire? I've been to Pentecostal churches, I know some of the practices, I've read the Bible, what is Pentecostal Fire? That's a good question because one of the things I tell people when I wrote the book, and even with the title, I went back and forth honestly with my wife, she's like, Pentecostal Fire, okay I get where you're coming from, but people are gonna look at that and perhaps read in some of the baggage that they've had from maybe a Pentecostal denomination or tradition, and I got that. At the same time, there are praise and worship songs coming out right now from kind of cool edgy worship teams with the phrase Pentecostal Fire in it.

So I thought to myself, alright Lord, when I introduce this message, when I share about the book, I tell people immediately, it's not about a tradition, it's not about a denomination, it's not about a style or preference of church. Pentecostal Fire, very simply put, is what we see starting in Acts chapter 2, starting with that initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit, where God is demonstratively moving in the midst of his people. Pentecostal Fire to me speaks of signs, wonders, and miracles as a normative expression of the Christian faith. It speaks of a baptism or immersion with the Holy Spirit, and some people think, well that's just a Pentecostal doctrine, but you reference people like Finney, I think of people like E.M. Bounds, I think of A.B. Simpson, I think of many even prior to the 1906 Medusa Street revival, where we started to put together Pentecostal theology, who spoke of an immersion or baptism in the Holy Spirit. So to me, Pentecostal Fire is the Bible blueprint, that New Testament standard that we see inaugurated in Acts chapter 2, where the disciples of Jesus walked in supernatural power, and that was the norm, not the exception. Do you think that we've become ashamed of this, that we want to appear sophisticated before the world, or we want to just show off our brilliant theological credentials or show our relevance, and in some ways we're ashamed of the fire of the Spirit?

I think so. I've heard it particularly in relevant, maybe cool churches, where some of these people are even sons and daughters of those who grew up during the charismatic renewal or the Pentecostal movement. Some of these new, and listen, I'm very grateful for all the good they do, I don't ever want to be a critic or a sourpuss about this stuff, but I've heard even people say, we don't want that Pentecostal stuff, or we don't want that Holy Spirit stuff. And what I tell people, this is a little bit controversial, but I say this nonetheless because I know I don't get a reaction, I say, listen, I do not tolerate the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

I celebrate them. Because sometimes people are like, well, I guess if that person's gonna get touched, if there's gonna be some of that weeping or travailing prayer or shaking or trembling, some of that stuff that people still consider controversial manifestations of the Spirit, like, well, we don't want that, I guess we'll deal with it, maybe we'll put it in the back room, and listen, I don't say we make a show out of that, and we certainly don't pursue that, but when I see that happening genuinely, where there's a purity about it, somebody's genuinely experiencing the Holy Spirit, as I did as a 16 year old teenager, I think to myself, you know what, we will make room for the Holy Spirit to do what He wants to do, I won't teach it as a distraction, because those things are only distracting to the degree that we teach that they're distracting. Otherwise, I like to teach that the real genuine manifestations of the Spirit are sign posts, the presence of God is in our midst. Don't get distracted by the person weeping, don't get distracted by the person shaking or crying or maybe being delivered, or he'll look to Jesus, but recognize he is in our midst, and it is a holy thing, it is not something to be trifled with. Yeah, I was teaching ministry school students recently on revival, and then played a clip from a previous revival, a very, very powerful testimony, which then led to prayer and intercession breaking out, and as that happened, and people began to pray, and people began to weep, that was a very sacred thing to me, that was, it was not taking away from the class, that was, okay, this is what we're talking about. You know, when Jonathan Edwards had to defend things in the Great Awakening in the 1740s, and wrote his treatise on religious affections, and then another book on the distinguishing marks of the move of the Spirit, he said it makes perfect sense that these things will happen. It doesn't prove it's the Holy Spirit, but it makes perfect sense that when people are deeply touched and confronted by God's holiness, or confronted by God's love, they will respond.

Larry, what are you hoping that readers of Pentecostal Fire will get out of your book? Well, well, two things, and you know what, one thing before I answer that, I think of a testimony from Brownfield, of a gal, I believe her name was Allison Ward, who was just overcome by the Holy Spirit, and I remember the first time I watched it, me, a charismatic Pentecostal publisher for Destiny, which I remember watching that, and I watched it carnally. I watched it in the flesh, because I thought to myself, how is that real?

How can that be true? I mean, because she's shaking, she's giving her testimony, shaking her the power of God the whole time, but then I felt like the Holy Spirit has taught me and discipled me. You can't look at that in the flesh, you can't look at that like, okay, because she is responding that way, it's right or wrong. I remember just discerning it in the Spirit, like, wow, she is really under the genuine influence of the power of God, and just like you're talking about Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan Edwards, to a degree, had to give a context for his wife, who was powerfully under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

So it is one of those things, I never want to judge it in the flesh, I never want to judge it based on what makes me comfortable, or judge it based on my preferences. I want to ask God, is this you? And my heart for this book is that people would read this and be provoked, number one, they'd be provoked that there is more. Tell you what, stay right there with those words, there is more. I'm looking at the first chapter of my book, Revival or We Die, there is more. Pentecostal Fire is going to tell you about that more.

The author Larry Sparks, stay right there, Larry, and John in Washington. I want to bring you on to ask your question when we come back, so stay right here. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to The Line of Fire as we talk about the new book, Pentecostal Fire, with my guest Larry Sparks. So right before the break you were telling us what you want readers to get out of this book and what you believe they'll get out of this book.

So back to you. I just desire for people to read this, be provoked, and to cry out, God, I know there's more. The Word makes it very clear. On the basis of Scripture alone, Lord, that I see Peter, who was so saturated by the presence of God that his shadow healed the sick. Now we often make a big deal out of the fact that his shadow healed the sick, which is amazing, Lord, let my shadow heal the sick, but that tells me, God, he walked in such saturation, being filled with the Holy Spirit to that level, that his shadow healed the sick. Same thing with Paul, where they would take the handkerchief off of his body, put it on the sick and demonized.

That's amazing. I'm amazed that people got healed and delivered, but Lord, would it be that we would be so immersed in and saturated by the presence of God that we would see that kind of phenomenon follow us. We don't seek it, it follows us, because our great quest is being filled with the Spirit of God. And you know Larry, when people say, well isn't the gospel enough, I say this is part of the gospel, God confirming his word with signs and wonders, the gospel being the power of the Spirit. So it's a mistake to separate the power of the Spirit from the proclamation of the gospel, correct? Well that's correct, and you know I'll say this because I know that this is something we are in a hundred percent agreement on, you still encourage me on this, is that when you study the revivalists of old and you actually study what they've preached, the theology of the gospel presentation that they preached. You know I look at Finney, I look at Edwards, I look at Whitfield, so on and so forth, even into William Seymour and those of the 20th century, the Pentecostal pioneers, they preached a gospel of repentance, they called sin what it was, they gave hope that there is reconciliation to a holy God through the work and blood of Jesus Christ, they preached the gospel and signs and wonders actually followed that word, they gave attestation to the word, and I pray where we are right now in the 21st century, I get concerned sometimes when I hear the kind of gospel that's being preached, I don't think sometimes that signs and wonders are compatible with what we're preaching, maybe that's why we're not seeing as many demonstrations of Pentecost today.

Yeah I'm absolutely with you, God's not gonna confirm a false message or a misleading message or a message that bypasses the cross or compromises on sin, absolutely. Hey while we still have you on the line, let's go over to Everett Washington, John you've been wanting to ask your question so you can ask Larry and me, please go ahead sir. Yeah sure, well yeah can you hear me okay first of all? Oh yeah sure.

Okay very good. So I wanted to just tell you my thoughts on revival and hear your guys' take on it, you know so many saints have been crying out for revival for decades and decades, and so many people have theories on it, but you know my basic theory is just simply put, there's you know besides all the scandals and stuff that just brings such reproach, I really see those as sort of a tears among the wheat thing in my opinion, but among true believers, truly born-again believers, it seems like there is such so very little offense in general, you know when the Holy Spirit touches people, you know he removes the the porn addiction, he removes the the bitterness and the hatred, he changes them, but then they're kind of like where do I go from here, and a lot of people are antsy and don't know how to to be offensive, but I'm 30 years old and I think I've had one person in my life make me a gospel tract. I mean it just seems like, I was curious your thoughts on that, like simply put, if the people of God would love justice, would love their neighbor as themselves, would love to preach the gospel, and would love to you know do things like stick up for unborn children, and just be offensive about it.

My opinion is this, is that you know I know there's a context associated with this verse, but I think there's a broader theme, Revelation 12 15 says that they overcame the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and a lot of people leave out the third part, but because they did not love their own lives even unto death, and I think that there's a fear there that you know people know that this stuff is costly and they don't know how to get started on it. Ah so that's that's that's a key thing you just hit on John, which is many people who stuck in a rut. So Larry, and I'll come back to your question with a fuller response, but Larry since many are somewhat spiritually passive, we're not talking about offending people, but being on the offensive going forth with the gospel, so because many are spiritually passive or church is just ingrown, teach teach teach teach, just build up the believer, get us healthier without realizing that health needs to flow out to the world around us, or they're just discouraged, beaten down, they can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, what do you say to them that will help light a fire and individualize? Well we pray for national outpouring, what is someone do says I'm just in a rut, I got to confess I'm in a rut, what do they do? I would say a few things, I would say number one pray, number two I would say, and this is me saying this to myself, we need to share and preach the gospel more often. My friend Jesse Green says it this way, we will see more people respond to the gospel if we open up our mouth and actually share the gospel, and I want to encourage the brothers who's asking the question, I get where you're coming from, I do have good news though, God is on the move with some people, Jesse Green, Parker Green have a ministry called Saturate Global, and they are literally mobilizing people to go out in the streets, preach the gospel, seeing people water baptized, filled with the Holy Spirit, set free from demonic torments, I'm seeing a movement even now in California called California Will Be Saved, so there is more and more outside of the walls of the church happening, while I also agree discipleship, actually raising up offensive, in the sense of believers who are advancing, not just just trying to hold ground, I'm seeing that in churches in Peoria, Arizona, or Dawsonville, Georgia, where there's a real emphasis on training and discipleship, so the good news is it's happening, otherwise we need to keep in prayer, we need to not forsake the assembly of the brethren, and as I said, I think the more we share the gospel, share our faith, and actually take the message of Jesus into the highways and byways, we will actually see results, and we're seeing it right now, what's really encouraging. Yeah, and you know Larry and John, one of the things I have to say, which is positive, is that most of the people I work with are zealous, and passionate, and going for it, and on the front lines, and sharing the gospel, and and fighting for the lives of the unborn, and taking the gospel to the nations, and praying, and fasting, so I'm around so many quality people so many times that that can, they can give a false impression of what's out there, but for sure, if we do what we can do, which is say, God, I'm dead, I'm dry, I need help, and then even take those steps, okay, I'm gonna do what my flesh doesn't want to do, I'm gonna find someone to share the gospel with, sometimes those little things, those little steps of obedience, that little act of faith is enough to trigger something, and then John, we just get on our faces and say, something's missing, there is more, God touch us, and then I pray positive prayers for other leaders, Lord, put a fresh fire, hunger, desire in the heart of these leaders, and renew them, and refresh them, because many times they're burnt out through the weight of ministry, and the problems in this life.

Hey John, thank you for the call, I appreciate it. Hey Larry, we've got one minute left, what would you say to our listening and viewing audience right now, if you could just preach a mini sermon, about 60 to 90 seconds, just pour your heart out. I would say this, in the middle of all the crazy darkness and chaos and crisis, and it is out there, and it's only increasing, I do want to encourage you, look for where God is moving, he is moving. I want to encourage you, just like Dr. Brown said, I was reading an account from the Welsh revival last night, and it was interesting, because they would talk about how one of the things that would catalyze revival in different regions, was people actually going, preaching the gospel, and one person getting saved, one person getting touched, one person experiencing the power of Pentecost, actually has the potential to ignite a whole region or city. So don't devalue the potential of just one person having that encounter with God. That's what happened to me, 16 years old, I had one encounter with Holy Spirit, and here I am, all those years later, doing what I can to help other people pressed in for the fullness of God.

Yeah, that can be a touch that changes us forever. The book, Pentecost, so far, hey Larry, always great working together with you, look forward to seeing you face to face, God bless. You too, Dr. Brown, thank you.

All right. Well friends, actually, actually, let's look at the clock, we have a few seconds left, so let me, let me add my word of encouragement, and to say, if we humble ourselves before God, if we recognize our sin, our shortcoming, our failing, or simply the discouraged state that we're in, or the beaten down state that we're in, or the worldly state that we're in, and say, God I need help, and I don't know how to get out of this rut, I don't know how to pull myself up on my own bootstraps, I'm asking you to help. You might say, God, I know I'm not where I'm supposed to be, but I don't feel like I even have the desire to get in the right place.

Humble yourself, start right where you are. God gives grace to the humble, don't make excuses, or point the finger at anyone else. Ultimately, our lives are our responsibility before God.

We get low, we humble ourselves, and God pours out his grace and mercy. Before you know it, you can be changed, and then what do you do? Build on it, each day, build on it. You mess up, you fall short, back to the basics, build on it, build on it. Before you know it, you won't recognize yourself. That's our heart, that's our cry. Hey, be sure to get my emails, askdrbrown.org, we've got some special resource packages we're putting together for you, some special announcements you don't want to miss, so askdrbrown.org, sign up for the emails, and when you do, we'll send you a free mini ebook, super relevant, How to Pray for America. Oh yeah, it's not too late, but it's an urgent time for sure. We'll be right back. Another program powered by the Truth Network.