Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Hey everybody, welcome to the show.

It's me, Matt Slick, listening to Matt Slick live. Now, today we're doing the show, and I'm off, and we're off radio here, live radio. We're off tomorrow, well, for the rest of the week, you know, because it's Thanksgiving and stuff like that. So if you want to call, now you've got to do it. I mean, this is it. And then you can wait until next week.

All right, 877-207-2276. So yesterday, yesterday I did a, it was impromptu. I didn't plan it.

I just did a whole thing on Mormonism. And so today, I had to run a few errands, but I just literally got, oh, it's too big. I've got to fix that graphic on the home page. Wow, it's way too big to fix that. And so I just uploaded ismormonismchristian.com, and you can check it out. It's, I'm going to fix the graphic, but I literally did it.

I mean, literally one minute before the show came on. So I'm just working on how to make everything right, everything bigger, and all that kind of stuff. And hopefully you can check it out. All right, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man. All right, if you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. All right, let's see. One of the things I was thinking about doing, because I don't expect too many callers, is to discuss, yesterday I did Mormonism, and I thought today, you know, maybe the same thing, I can do stuff on Roman Catholicism.

I can talk about what it is and if it's any good, what any problems might be with it, you know, just a basic kind of stuff like that. And so I'm thinking about doing that, but if you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276, and then we can blap. All right, there we go. Boy, look at all that stuff.

During the break, I'll fix the graphic size on that site. Okay, now, you know, by the way, if you're a Mormon and you heard what I said yesterday, or if you are thinking about joining Mormonism and you heard what I said, at the bottom of the Karm website is info.karm.org. You can email me, and you can just give me your opinion.

Tell me what you think, if you think I'm whacked or don't know what I'm talking about. But the idea here is to get people to see what the truth is, and that's what I want to do. You know, I want to see what the truth is.

The truth in who Jesus is, because Jesus is the truth. And I want people to understand who Christ is and the truth of it so they don't be deceived. We don't want to be deceived.

We don't want that. And unfortunately, people are being deceived by Mormonism. And I know that a lot of people don't like that. I know they're upset by what I say, and that's just what it is. I'm not trying to be mean, not trying to be rude or anything.

I am trying very much, though, to help people come to a saving knowledge of the truth's savior, Jesus Christ. So there you go. All right. And maybe we'll do a little bit of Trumpkite and Catholicism today. We'll see what happens.

It just depends. All right. All right. Let's get on the phones with, let's get, let's see, it'll be Joe from Ohio. Hey, Joe, welcome. You are on the air. Joe?

Hello, Mr. Flick. That's me. I have a question about a comment you made the other evening. Someone called in and trying to understand the Trinity.

Okay. And some way or another, as the conversation continued, the idea of the one in the Godhead came into the conversation. It wasn't about that necessarily, but it just came into the conversation when you were talking to this individual. And you made the comment that people that believed or didn't believe in the Trinity, well, you actually mentioned the apostolic or whatever, and you said that it was a cult. Yes, a witness is a cult.

When you talk to this individual. My question to you is, if an individual sees the Godhead as three people or one person, does that necessarily demand that the individual that doesn't see the three people is a cultist? We don't say three people. Okay, we say persons. The word person has a theologically important distinction between what we would say people. Person has to do with the attributes of personhood. The early Christian theologians used the word persona from the Latin, I think it's Latin, mask.

And when the actors would use these masks, persona, they used different masks to play different parts, different characters. The theologians borrowed the word and applied it in the doctrine of the Trinity. So when people say Trinity and they say persons, they often think of a human being that's walking around like you and I. That's not the theological context. The Christians never thought that.

They never intended that. It's just that the people today aren't aware of that distinction. So we don't say personage and we don't say people. We say God is one being who exists as three persons. It's like a cube that exists as height, width, and depth. That's the nature of the cube. It's the nature of the Trinity.

That's what it is. If anyone were taken away, you wouldn't have God. So one that's been accostal deny the doctrine of the Trinity. They openly, knowingly deny it.

That's different than someone who just doesn't know and ignorantly denies it. They knowingly deny it and they also add works to salvation and a formula of being baptized in Jesus' name instead of in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And they add baptism as a requirement for salvation. So it violates the true doctrine of God and it violates the doctrine of Christ, which I'll explain in a second, and the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of baptism. So they deny the true doctrine of Christ because they deny that he's a second person of the Trinity with two distinct natures. Now, some oneness will say he is one person with two distinct natures. But then when you ask them who is Jesus praying to, they'll say it was the human flesh praying to the divine self. And that means two persons instead of one person is Christ.

That doesn't get more complicated. So the thing is, they deny the true and living God. Well, pardon me, could I ask you one more question? Sure. And that is the scripture that says that Jesus is the expressed image of God's person.

Nature. Can you explain that to us? Yeah, that he's a representation of God the Father, Hebrews 1-3.

The character in the Greek, it's like we get the word character, the representation. So Jesus could say in John 14, if you see me, you've seen the Father. But he is not the Father for lots of reasons. But he is the second person of the Trinity.

That's who he is. That's what the correct teaching is. Second person. Second person of the Trinity. God exists eternally as one being who is also what we call three persons.

A cube always is consisting of height, width, and depth, otherwise it's not that. God always exists as three persons, otherwise he's not God. Well, pardon me, I looked up the definition of person in a dictionary, quite an old dictionary, and a real big one, you know, real thick ones, and I looked up the definition of person, and the definition is, the primary definition is a human being. Yeah, and did you miss the part where I said in the theological context of the Trinity what it means is? Okay.

Well, I don't understand what you're saying. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there's one God in three persons. The word person is a word used in the context of the Trinity to designate three aspects, we could say, or we could also say centers of consciousness or a mind. We could say those.

Those aren't exactly accurate, but it'll suffice for now. Where the Father speaks, the Son speaks, and the Holy Spirit speaks. They each have roles.

The Father and Son speak to each other. There's not three gods. There's only one God who exists in three persons.

That's the doctrine of the Trinity. Okay. Three persons. Well, I thought persons means human beings. Okay. Now, I want you to pay attention to what I'm telling you.

I'll say it for the third or fourth time. In the context of the Trinity, okay, in the context of the theological definition of the Trinity, the triune God, the word person does not mean a human being. It does not mean that in that context. Okay. Well, can we recognize one person within the Godhead? Yes, we can recognize one.

Yes, we can. We can recognize one. And that of course would be Jesus, right?

Okay. Are you a oneness person? No, I'm just a believer. I study the Scriptures. I'm not necessarily. I just call myself a believer. So you're not a oneness. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God in flesh?

I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Okay. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh?

That's what I'm asking. Yeah, he said he was. Okay. So do you believe that Jesus died on the cross? Of course. And that he rose from the dead in the same body he died in?

The glorified body? Yes, absolutely. Do you affirm that we're saved from our sins by faith alone in Christ alone? Absolutely.

Right. Baptism is not necessary for salvation, right? Well, I don't know. Well, I do. Baptism is not necessary for salvation because we're justified by faith without any works, without anything that we do.

Romans 4 and 5. Yeah, I've never really taken that subject too far as baptism, but I am definitely interested in Godhead. Are you familiar with my website, karm.orgs? C-A-R-M. I sure am. I'm sorry, yes or no? Yes. Okay. So if you go to the Christian doctrine section there and look up the subheading inside there when you get to the page, look up the stuff on Trinity and just read articles on Trinity. Okay. There's a lot there. I've been teaching on the Trinity for decades, and I've been defending it for decades. I've written a lot of articles on it, okay?

Yeah, well, we have almost 2,000 years of church history of teachings on the Trinity. Yes, we do. And there it is. Okay, buddy. God bless.

I believe... Okay, there's a break. We've got to go.

There's a break, okay? Okay. So, hey, call back if you want to get on, okay? I'll write back. God bless.

Thanks. Hey, folks, we have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. All right, let's get to Jason from Ogden. Hey, Jason, welcome.

You're on the air. It's like I have a question, and I don't know how to ask it, but did you? How come they didn't like pigs?

Again, I don't know how to ask it, and I apologize, but I know you answered it. But all of the sudden, it's okay to eat pigs? Does that make sense? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, why did the Jews? I don't know what the medical reason is, except I've heard that there are some health benefits to abstaining from pork. That's what I've heard. But God decided that the Jews would be separate from the pagan nations around them, and one of the ways they did it was in clothing and in food and their designations. And it turns out that the diet that you can have from eating like that is better without pork.

That's what I've heard anyway. All right. And then the Jews, to this day, they don't like cows and pigs. Is that right? I don't know.

Jews aren't supposed to really, today, a true Jew doesn't eat any pork. Okay. Okay. Okay.

That actually means a lot. Okay. All right.

Well, thank you. Have a good turkey day. You too.

Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye.

All right. Let's get on the air with Chris from Tulsa. Chris, welcome. You are on the air. Hi. Thank you very much. First-time callout, long-time listener.

Enjoy your show. Oh, thanks. So I had a quick question with regards to the callout for the last one here. We were talking about oneness and the Trinity. And I just had a quick question for you regarding John 17.3, where Jesus is praying to his Father, and he says, so he may give eternal life to all. I'm sorry.

Let me go back. So he's praying to the Father. He says, so that the Son may glorify you, for you have given him authority over all flesh. That's verse 2. And then verse 3, it says, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and the one you have sent, Jesus Christ.

So, now I grew up Southern Baptist, very well versed in the doctrines of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, the hypostatic union. But this verse is one that has come up in my discussions with various groups, whether it be one that's Pentecostals, Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses. And I'm just curious, how do you view this verse 3, where it says, where Jesus explicitly says that his Father is the only true God? What he's doing is obeying the Scriptures. He's made for a little while more than the angels, Hebrews 2.9. He's made under the law, Galatians 4.4. As someone who is made under the law, he's obligated to have someone that he would pray to and call God. This is only possible of Jesus being God, hypostatic union, as you said, if the doctrine of the Trinity is true. So he was required under the law to pray to the one and only true God who exists. Now that's designated in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments, in the covenant documents that those two tablets are, that you shall have no other God before him, etc. So what Jesus is doing is simply submitting to the requirement of the law and calling the Father in that theological context only true God. Now we also know that Jesus claims to be God. He says this in John 8, 58, before Abraham was I Am. He's claiming to be God.

And so what's going on here? He's giving that homage and that honor to the Father. Furthermore, in the Jewish context, there's often what we call exaggeration. Now think about this, because he says they're the only true God. Speaking of the Father, right?

Well, check this out. Jude 4, for certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turned the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Well, then that would mean that Jesus is our only Master and Lord. That means God the Father and the Holy Spirit would not be our Master or our Lord. Well, that doesn't make sense either.

What's going on is that when, for example, Jude says he's our only Master and Lord, he's talking about the context of who Christ is in his ministry and his work, the same way as Jesus talking about God the Father in his ministry and his work, because a differentiation does exist between the Father and the Son, and we see it in John 17.3 and Jude 4, and that's all that's going on. I appreciate that. That was an excellent answer. Out of curiosity, will this video be posted on YouTube or will it be available for reviewing later on? Oh, it is on YouTube.

It's on mattslick-live, I think it is, YouTube is where we are having it. Well, you've got a lot of good information here, too much for me to write down right now, so I'm just going to review it later and take my notes. Ain't no problem at all, man. No problem.

Well, God bless. Okay. All right. We'll see you. All right.

That was Chris from Tulsa, Oklahoma. I think I've been there. I don't know if I've been there.

I think I have been there. Anyway, if you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 8772072276. I want to hear from you.

Give me a call. All right. All right. Let me see.

So we've got nobody waiting right now. So like I said earlier, one of the things I was thinking about doing was talking about Roman Catholicism a little bit, and I did, hey, did Mormonism yesterday? And I thought, you know, maybe I'll just talk a little bit about the Roman Catholic Church because a lot of people don't know how bad the Roman Catholic Church really is.

It's bad. Now, one of the things I will do when I'm talking to Catholics is I will quote them the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's doctrine of how to get saved, to keep the commandments, and they don't even know it that I'm quoting, and they'll say, yeah, of course you do because it says, I think it's 1983, page 12, I think it is, in the Watchtower, it says that the second requirement for salvation is to obey God's commands, and so it says that. And so the Catholics will say, well, yeah, of course you obey God's commands, and sometimes what I'll do is without telling them, I'll quote the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25, 23. You know, we're saved by grace through faith. That's all we can do.

Do you believe that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Sometimes they don't answer very quickly. Sometimes they go, well, I don't know.

You are slick, so I've got to be careful. And so, you know, I'll try and get them to see that what they're doing is agreeing with the doctrine of salvation from Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, two non-Christian cults. And I'll say, why is it that the Roman Catholic Church agrees that way? Oh, they don't like that.

They do not like it when I bring that up. So that's where, you know, it's important. But, you see, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, paragraph 816, the Second Vatican Council decree on ecumenism explains, for it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is a universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. Now, check this out. The Mormon Church says it is the true church. And through its official procedures, the fullness of the gospel is known. And guess what?

The Jehovah's Witnesses and their church organizations say the same thing. Now, why would they do that? We'll get more, back to more of this. After the break, please stay tuned. 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show for Open Lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276.

Let's get to Betty from Indiana. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi. Hi.

I'd like to make it. Oh, I've got a lot of feedback on my phone. Do you hear it on yours? No, you sound good on my end. Okay, good. I'm all right then. I just wanted to make a comment about this bit with the Trinity stuff.

Sure. And I have a three-year-old, a six-year-old, and 11-year-old grandchildren. So I was trying to explain it to my six-year-old boy. And the way that I did it is that I remember we were talking to a six-year-old.

So the way that I did it was I drew this one big circle, okay? And his dad works in computers. He's an IT guy. Good.

So I said, let's picture it this way. We've got this one big, let's say, company, okay? So we have this person over here that might work on an iPad. And then we've got another one over here that might be working on laptops. And then we've got the creator over here who started the whole thing.

Maybe he works on your home personal computer, but they all three can do each other's work. But they all answer to each other together, and one without the other can't function. And that's the way I explained it to a six-year-old.

And I called it to his mom, and his mom said, well, I never thought of that before. Now, every analogy breaks down. Every one of them does, okay? So I give it an analogy, and they break down too. So the danger you've got to be careful with in that is that they don't get in their mind that there's three individuals and therefore three gods. Okay. Okay. I was just trying to explain that the three of them are together.

If they all are one, one without the other, they don't work right. Like I said, I was trying to fit it in a six-year-old's term. No, it's okay.

And good for you. I would just be cognizant of the idea. We don't want them to get the idea that there's three gods in any way, shape, or form.

So that's something to just be wary of. But like I said, no analogy comes perfect. It's like I told him, we have the Holy Spirit that is in us when we become believers, and all of our sins are erased and all that. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us. I said, then you have Jesus who came to earth because people didn't believe in something they couldn't see.

I said, then we have God who created it all, but nobody could see him, so they had a hard time believing in him. But the three of them are all together. They're like a company.

God created the whole thing, and it won't exist without the other two. Yeah, that's the idea. Just make sure they understand there's not three gods.

Just make sure they get that. Correct. He does. He does.

That's one thing I can't say. They are homeschooled, and they are a Christian family. I'm so glad. Actually, my son and I were both immersed in the same year back in 1994, and he's 36 now. He gets up and delivers the message and does Lord's Supper meditations and this kind of stuff.

I'm so proud of him. Do I have time to make a couple other comments? Okay. I listened to another question and answer program, and I don't remember which one it was. Someone on one of the two of them was talking about the roles of women in the church and being silent and all that kind of stuff.

There is a place that I get some resource material, and it's called EMT Ministries. It's Teaching New Testament Ministries. Let me see. Hold on.

Let me check. EMT? P-N-T. Teaching New Testament Ministries. Okay. TNT Ministries.

All right. They have quite a lot of stuff, but they have a very small study you can go through in one day about the roles of women and what the verse that women are to be silent in the church, what that was all about, and especially during their culture and their time. What they say. It's a very, very good little study. What they say means. We've got nobody waiting for you to talk about it. Well, first you have to learn what their culture was like.

Okay? And so when they went to the synagogue, the men were separate from the women, then they were separate from the children, and a lot of the synagogue had an upper level where the women would go. Not all of them, but, you know. And it was shameful and disgraceful to the man if the woman hollered out and asked questions of him. And it also made it look like she was kind of like out of control to a point, you know? She was disrespectful.

So it says to ask your husband, a man, a brother, you know, someone at the synagogue, ask someone else, you know, don't holler out to them during the lesson at the synagogue. There's more to it than that. I mean, it explains more about the culture. Yeah, and that's correct. That's correct.

It also would wear, women would wear head coverings and things like that as a symbol of Adamic authority and federal headship. Now, do they teach, hold on, let me ask you, hold on, let me ask. Do they teach women can be pastors and elders?

No. There is no example of that in the Bible. So no, where the Bible speaks, we speak.

Where the Bible is silent, we're silent. Okay. Do they affirm the Trinity? Yes.

Because I'm looking on the website and I can't find any doctrinal statement. And that concerns me. Oh, I have, I actually order myself through a lady who helps with the TNT ministries. I have not actually been, I've only been on their website like twice.

Because I just ask her, hey, what do they have, you know. And then you were talking about doing Mormonism. Oh my goodness, that is, I don't even want to go there. I have a DVD on that that is just out of this, yeah.

I don't have a whole lot to say about that. But I do want to say that I was raised Catholic and thank goodness I am no part of that anymore. And they also have a, they have a study there also, it's a short one.

And it's called, I think it's called The Heavyweight. It's out of the world and into the word. And what it does is it gives you different religions, you know, Mormonism, it starts with Catholicism. It has Mormonism, it has Baptist, Methodist, this, that. And all it does is tell you what they believe and what they practice and then give you the Bible, what it says in the Bible. That's all it does. But it's very, very good and helpful for trying to figure out why these other religions do things differently than what the Bible says.

Yes, I'm looking at this website and it has something called Calvinism Unveiled. And generally that kind of a title means that they attack it and don't understand what they're criticizing. But I can't judge a book by its cover. Right, right. And looking through stuff, so Wayne Primo, yeah, so he doesn't have a statement of faith. And that's always a problem. You know, if he's a ministry, have a statement of faith there.

Why doesn't he have a statement of faith? And that's what I'm looking for, I don't see it. I don't know. Yeah.

Okay. Why not? I don't know.

I never really checked into that. You should ask him. But I just wanted to... You should ask him. I will. And send it to me. Okay, okay.

I just wanted to point out, though, the way that I explain the Trinity to a six-year-old and then give you a little heads up on another place for a resource. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend TNT Ministries. I don't know if it's any good. I don't know. A lot of times people appear good, but I just don't know if it is. I haven't checked it out.

I can't say. But I need to see a statement of faith. Yeah, I've been through several of their studies, and all the ones I've done up to this point have been right dead on with what the Bible says. Well, okay. And there's cultural research to go along with that.

Like the one with the women in the church, you know, they had to research the culture to figure out what was going on. Why? Why? You know? Yeah, I got it. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. But I am concerned that there's no statement of faith, and that always is a warning sign. Okay, I'll bring that up. Yeah, I'll bring that up to the lady that I talked with about that.

Okay. Did you have a caller recently that was asking about children, let me think, how was it said, about them being born with sin, you know, the original sins, the nature, all that stuff. I can't remember if that was you. No, we get callers like that.

We get callers, that's what we do. And yes, children are born with original sin. Why?

Why do you think that? Because the Bible teaches it. Give me some scripture.

I'll go look them up. Romans 5, 19. Fourth, as through one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.

So, the many were made sinners. Now, I'll give you a little bit of a Greek lesson here. In the Greek, it is the aorist passive indicative. Aorist means past tense. Passive means they received the action.

And indicative means it's a fact. They were made sinners by Adam's failure. Now, we'll get back to the break. I'll explain more of why this is, and I'll show you another verse, okay? Because it is the biblical correct doctrine.

Anyone who denies it is getting a lot of stuff wrong. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Before we get to the call, I just want to tell you that we stay on the air by your support. Please consider supporting us. We ask $5 a month. All you have to do is go to karm.org forward slash donate. $5 a month is not very much, and it would be very, very helpful.

We also have schools. You can go to learn.karm.org, and you can check out what we have there. $75 for three schools or $33 each for the three schools on apologetics, critical thinking, and Christian theology. So if you want to support us, that's one of the ways you can do it, and you can get something for it as well.

Or you can just go to learn.karm.org. Or as I'm saying here regularly now is that please consider supporting us, $5 a month at karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate. All right. Let's get back on here with Patty.

Hey, Patty. Are you still there? Yes, I am.

All right. So what I was saying there, Romans 5, 19, the many were made sinners. They were made sinners by Adam's sin. This is called the doctrine of federal headship. The doctrine of federal headship means that one man represents a descendant. So we see this in Romans 5, 19, and when we go to 1 Corinthians 15, 22, it says, As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

So in Adam is a term of federal headship, male representation. Okay, you with me so far? Okay. Yeah, what is that 1 Corinthians what?

15, 22. Okay. So Adam's sin became our sin, which imputed to us. He represented us. Now people say, well, that's not fair. Okay, then if you don't like that, you want to reject it, then reject the idea that our sin became Christ's sin and he represented us.

Be consistent. If you're going to say that Adam represented us and bore our sins and took it, then you have to accept that Adam is the one by whom we were made sinners. Okay, now I do have a question.

Sure. So I don't have the right scripture wrote down, but I know that in Deuteronomy it says, well, okay, it's repeated in 2 Kings 14, 6, the second part of it, where it says, the father shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the father, but each shall be put to death for his own sin. And then over in Ezekiel, it says, well, I got two more, though. You made the point. We understand that they're not put to death for the father's sin. That's what you're saying, right?

Yeah, I got this other one. In Ezekiel 18, 20, it says the person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity.

The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. Yes, Patti, I understand. You're just giving the same scriptures, different things, and the same thing. I got it. Right, right.

There's all places that it talks about that. Okay. I understand.

Okay. Now, it says punishment for someone else's sins. That is not the same thing as Adam representing us and us falling in him. We're not being punished.

It's not a judgment of punishment. So I'm just telling you that there's a difference. Okay. Okay? Now, this is what it says.

Okay. So as to one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men. Romans 5, 18. Through Adam's sin... 5, 18. Yeah, Romans 5, 18 and Romans 5, 19. Okay.

Through Adam's sin, we were all made sinners. Do you agree with that? If that's what it says, I wrote it down so that I could look it up.

I want to check it out. Now, do you think... I like to study, so... Good. Do you think that a baby is born without a fallen nature? I always thought so. I thought that we... Okay.

So the answer is yes. Because, you know... Okay. Well, Jesus said, you know, that we should come to him like these children. Okay. And I thought that it was innocent children.

I got you. So the answer is yes, you thought that children were born innocent. But that's not what the Bible teaches. Ephesians 2, 3.

Okay. We are by nature children of wrath. Ephesians what? Ephesians 2, 3.

We are by nature children of wrath. Okay. Huh. So Romans 5, 19. Through one man's disobedience, the many...

Okay. Through one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. That's everybody. That's everybody. Because in Adam, all die.

He represented everybody. So think about this. Adam and Eve were in the garden. She sinned first. Then she gave the fruit to Adam.

Yeah, I know. Then she gave the fruit... I understand.

Then she gave the fruit... Okay. Please let me finish these thoughts. Okay. Because it's part of what this is. Okay.

Alright. So she sinned first. She gave the fruit to Adam. But sin entered the world through Adam.

Romans 5, 12. It did not enter the world through Eve. Because Eve was not the federal head. Adam was. He represented the created order and all the people and descendants in him.

So when he fell, we inherited the sinful nature. Okay? Okay. Children included. Then, okay, then what is it all about when Jesus says that we should come to him like these children?

It means... When I say that, you know, children are innocent. Who says children are innocent? Can you show me any scriptures for that? Well, no, but how are they going to know sin if they don't learn what's right and wrong?

They will. God is the one who grants that they have knowledge like that. He grants that they have faith in him. Philippians 1 29.

He made me believe that my mother's breast. Psalm 22 9. God is the one who works this.

He doesn't talk too much about children, where they go, or what happens. And so we should not say that they do or don't go anywhere. And say it's a fact.

We can have opinions. God hasn't revealed it to us. But what we can say is that all people die in Adam. Except for Christ, because he didn't have a human father.

So the federal headship line isn't with him. Okay, so everybody else, we have that inherent nature. Children and babies die. And so, for example, sin entered the world.

And the effect of sin on the world is death and suffering. So my wife and I, 27 years ago, had a son who had a birth defect. And he died shortly after birth. Died in our arms. He didn't either do anything right or wrong. And yet the effect of sin was upon him in this world. And he was affected by it. He wasn't innocent.

Though I do believe I will see him. I get to heaven. That's another discussion. Now I'm even more confused. Good.

That's good. Confusion occurs when bad theological ideas are being accosted and being corrected. Because people develop a map of theological understanding that's based, often, not on biblical theology.

Okay. What I'm confused about is the fact that there is no sin in heaven. So how can we get into heaven if we've got sin? Jesus bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2.24. He died, and then we have died with him in Adam. All die in Christ.

All should be made alive. He died once for all, therefore all died. That's 2 Corinthians 5.14. I can get to that verse another time.

We don't have time here. But he represented his people. He canceled the sin debt at the cross, Colossians 2.14. He could only have canceled it for the elect, not for everybody who ever lived.

That's another topic. So when we go to heaven, the sin debt that we have, because sin is breaking the law of God, 1 John 3.4. The sin was removed by Christ, not for everybody. Because if it was removed for everybody, then everybody has to go to heaven.

He only removed it for the people that was given to him by the Father, John 6.37. All that the Father gives me will come to me. He says, I'll lay my life down for the sheep, John 10.

He says, you're not my sheep. Jesus says this. So when we go to heaven, our sins are already paid for, already removed.

And we are regenerated with a new resurrected body, and therefore we go and we're not going to be sinning in heaven. Okay? Okay. Well, you've given me quite a few scriptures, and I wrote them down, which I am going to go check it out.

Okay, there's a lot there, a lot of theology there. Yeah, I'm sorry I've taken up so much time. It's all right. No problem. Okay, I'm sorry about the loss of your son, but I have no doubt he's fine up there with Jesus.

That's what I believe, too. Okay. Okay, you just have a fantastic Thanksgiving. You too.

Thanks a lot, Patti. Okay, all right. Bye. Okay, bye. All right, let's get on with Heather from North Carolina. Heather, welcome.

You are on the air. Hello. My question is, my brother does not believe that there is a Holy Spirit, that it was made up by the Catholic Church, which I know they made up the term Trinity, but... No, they didn't. Yeah. He doesn't believe that there's a Holy Spirit, that it's just our spirit within ourselves, communicating with God. Okay, and so you go to Acts 13, too, while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting. The Holy Spirit said, set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I've called them. Okay? So if it's just some little spirit thing like us, then why would the Holy Spirit speak?

Okay, in Acts 8, 29, the Spirit said to Philip, go up and join this chariot. Okay? Yeah. How do you, like, convince or minister to that? Well, what you do, to get someone to believe that, you have to, you need three guys with ski masks, gloves, a small room with a chair, duct tape, and a bright light. Okay?

Are you with me? Because, okay, I'm glad you smiled and chuckled there, because a lot of times people get this in their heads and then they don't care what the truth is. Because they don't submit the scripture. They submit the scripture to their feelings. So what you could do is go to karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, and you can go on the left, there's a menu, and go to the Christian doctrine section and look up the stuff on the Holy Spirit. And you will see, there's plenty of information there out of the Bible where the Holy Spirit speaks and has a will and can be grieved.

That's not the case if it's just a spirit or talking about our own spirit. That's not what's going on there. It's right there. Okay? Yeah, it's there, but it's possible that they don't want the Holy Spirit to. Yes.

Often people have these ideas and then they don't repent for them. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. That's all I had, but thank you. You're welcome.

So God bless. Okay? All right. Have a great day. Nice to talk to you finally. Nice talking to you, Heather. God bless. All right. Hey, everybody. Whew. Hey, we're out of time.

Ten seconds or so. I hope you all have a great Thanksgiving. May the Lord bless you and by his grace. Look back on here on Monday.

Just recorded shows on Thursday and Friday if you happen to be listening. May the Lord greatly bless you. Give thanks to him for the kindness that he's shown to us in this country and in your hearts. And look to him. God bless, and we'll talk to you Monday. Have a good one. Another program powered by the Truth Network.