Dr. Brown Discusses Prophetic Integrity with Dr. R. T. Kendall

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network. We need to speak loyally and faithfully for the Lord, and not with two tongues, and not with wavering, and not with all kinds of excuses. Either there is prophetic ministry today or there isn't.

If there is, let it be with integrity and the fear of the Lord. Michael Brown, welcome to the broadcast. Here's the number to call to weigh in. I'm about to play a very intense, controversial clip. You may want to comment on that, but here's the number to call to talk about prophetic ministry today. 866-34-Truth, 866-348-7884. A couple weeks back, I did a show about the purpose of New Testament prophecy. We interacted with that in terms of its relevance for today. And this day, at the bottom of the hour, I'll be joined by well-known, respected theologian R.T. Kendall, formerly pastor of Westminster Chapel in England. He's got a brand new book out, Prophetic Integrity. I wrote the foreword to the book, so I'm quite acquainted with the contents of it. We're going to have a fascinating discussion together with my guest in just a few minutes.

But we've got a lot of ground to cover before then. As I've been interacting in recent months with some brothers in the Lord who do not believe that the prophetic gifts are for today, that the signed gifts are for today, they've asked me, does it concern me that there are people who claim to speak in the name of the Lord and they are speaking falsely for him? You know, for example, let's just say, we'll take an extreme ridiculous example. A man leaves his wife, he's living in adultery with another woman, and a so-called prophet says, the Lord saw your need and called you into this wrong relationship. Well, that's horrific. That's blasphemous, right? That's claiming to speak for God when you are speaking in direct violation of the word of God.

But in the same way, if it's something lesser, if it's not so blatant a contradiction, but it's simply false. If I say, the Lord told me to tell you that in three days, thus and such will happen and so on, and you worship the Lord, you're honoring the Lord during these days, and three days later, zero of what I said happened, well, that's very serious also, because I've misrepresented the Lord. And I said to these brothers I was interacting with, yes, that does concern me.

Absolutely. And it's one thing to say, I sense the Lord speaking this, would you pray about it? Or I really believe the Lord wants me to share this with you, pray, see if you bear witness, test everything by the word. That, of course, is quite different than saying, thus sayeth the Lord, when God didn't sayeth it, okay, to mix in a little King James ungrammatically there.

So these are important issues. Of course, I shared with these brothers I was dialoguing with, my concern, does it concern you when you bear false witness against a brother? I mean, that's also in the Ten Commandments. So they were saying, taking the name of the Lord in vain, one way to do that is to claim to speak for him when you're not actually speaking for him, right? But, but, it's another sin to bear false witness and to speak falsely about brothers and sisters in the Lord and to misrepresent him. They agreed that's wrong as well. So we all have to walk in the fear of the Lord.

We all have to honor the Lord. When there were different believers proclaiming that Donald Trump would serve eight consecutive years in the White House, not something that he would, quote, win the election, well, then it would be stolen without these same prophets being told it would be stolen. Not just that, but guaranteeing Joe Biden will not serve a day in the White House.

Donald Trump will be in for eight consecutive years. And when some of them made these claims in the strongest possible terms, I mean the absolute strongest possible terms imaginable. Guarantee, guaranteeing it. And then when it didn't happen, they didn't back down. They didn't apologize. They said, well, that election was stolen.

I'm not apologizing for anything. So obviously, they lose all credibility at that point. It's plain and simple to me. And if you go along with them, well, you're just going to follow whatever they say and affirm whatever they say, and it doesn't really matter.

Well, now, you've lost credibility as well. We're supposed to test everything. 1 Corinthians 14 says two or three prophets speak and the others weigh carefully what's being said. 1 Thessalonians 5. Don't despise prophets. You don't put out the Spirit's fire.

Test everything. Hold to the good. These are principles, fundamental principles. Well, one pastor doesn't have a large congregation, but has a large online following. His videos will get millions of views. Pastor Greg Locke did not simply guarantee Trump's reelection, but guaranteed 100% that Joe Biden would not sit one day in the White House as president. And then he was one that didn't back down, didn't apologize after that. Well, he's known for making controversial statements, and he is quite bold about it and unapologetic about it. But he said something recently.

I don't know the exact date of the clip. It was just sent to me today. But I want to play it for you. And I want to tell you what really, really deeply concerns me about this. Let's listen.

I'm to the place right now. If you vote Democrat, I don't even want you around this church. You can get out. You can get out, you demon. You can get out, you baby butchering election thief. You cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat in this nation. I don't care how mad that makes you.

You get pissed off if you want to. You cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat in this nation. They are God denying demons that butcher babies and hate this nation. They hate this nation. Get mad all you want to. I don't care if you stand, I don't care if you throw tomatoes, praise God, I'm about to throw a microphone up in his house. CNN can eat my dirty socks. You cannot be a Democrat and a Christian.

You cannot. Somebody say Amen. Most of you get out. Get out. Get out in the name of Jesus.

I ain't playing your stupid games. Bunch of devils. I'm sick of it. They want to talk about the insurrection.

Let me tell you something. You ain't seen the insurrection yet. You keep on pushing our buttons, you lowdown sorry compromisers. You God hating Communist America. You'll find out what an insurrection is because we ain't playing your garbage.

We ain't playing your mess. My Bible says that the Church of the Living God is an institution that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. My Bible says that we'll take it by force. That's what the Bible says. That's what the Bible says.

It's gonna get worse. That's really dangerous stuff. Really, really dangerous stuff. For some people, when you yell and shout like that, they think that's the anointing. There's some church circles where if you say it the right way, people get worked up no matter what you say.

But there are people that listen to that and say Amen. That's really dangerous stuff. In particular, the closing part about the insurrection and the violence.

It's really dangerous. And this is what happens when the church gets overly politicized. This is what happens when the church loses its divine purpose and takes on a carnal purpose. Now, as for the first part, so you can't be Christian and vote Democrat, I have said very plainly, I do not understand how a follower of Jesus can possibly vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

I've had shows where people have called in and tried to explain XYZ reasons. I can't see it. On the other hand, it's not for me to tell you you're not a follower of Jesus if you vote Democrat. I've interacted with Christians who say you're not a follower of Jesus if you vote Republican. That type of rhetoric is unhealthy.

I'll say this plainly. If you said there's no way I could vote for Donald Trump in conscience for XYZ reasons, well, fine. Just don't vote for Joe Biden. Because if you're voting for Joe Biden, you were voting for a radical pro-abortion candidate. You were voting for a radical pro-abortion platform. You were voting for what would be an attack on our religious freedoms through things like, quote, trans rights, etc.

So you were doing that to me. You just sit out. You don't vote for either. And for those who say, no, no, no, no, abortion, those things will not be changed through votes.

Well, that's totally false. We see the Supreme Court justices appointed under Donald Trump that could well be pivotal in overturning Roe v. Wade as everything goes the way we're expecting to in the next month or two. And then it would fall back in the states for the states to have pro-life or pro-abortion bills.

And that means your elected officials are going to make a difference there. And even the recent vote in the Senate where Chuck Schumer wanted to codify radical abortion laws that went beyond Roe v. Wade. Joe Manchin was the only Democrat to not vote for this. The other 49 voted for a radical abortion bill. He said, if this was to codify Roe, I would vote for it.

That's what he said. He said, but this goes beyond Roe. So he didn't vote for it.

That's how radical the bill was. So you vote for that. In my view, you have that blood on your hands, just like the blood of the aborted babies, just like if you voted for a pro-slavery candidate in the days of slavery.

You've got the shackles of the slaves and the blood of the slaves on your hands. Nonetheless, I understand that nothing is clean and simple when it comes to politics. Nonetheless, I understand that there are many other issues that factor in. So I am not going to say you can't be a follower of Jesus.

You can't be born again if you vote this way or that way. I will say I find it contradictory and troubling. So Greg Locke's comments go further in a more radical way, and I've heard, again, others say the same thing about Republicans for different reasons. I'm not making that statement either way, although I understand the sentiments behind it. What concerns me, aside from the tone and all of that, what concerns me is this flat-out talk, this blatant talk about a violent uprising. You don't provoke us anymore or it's really going to get bad. That is deeply concerning. That has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with the gospel.

Zero. As for Matthew 11, 12, the kingdom of God suffers violence, the violence taken by force, aside from discussing what that verse means in detail, I can say for sure it is not calling for Christians to have a violent uprising against the government of America. If you're talking about the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God is not America. And if it's the violence taken by force, it's talking about spiritually holding on. It's not talking about taking up a sword against someone else. No, the people that spiritually pushed forward with the kingdom of God were the ones against whom violence was carried out.

They were the ones getting killed for the gospel, not the ones killing others. As for saying the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, that means death itself. Doesn't mean we kill people. That means death itself. Gates of Hades will not prevail. No weapon formed against us will succeed.

Not that we take up weapons. This is really dangerous rhetoric. It needs to be called out. It needs to be rebuked. It needs to be repudiated.

Let every person of conscience, Jesus lover, say no way to that kind of rhetoric. Friends, we will be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire broadcast.

You know, we just sent out, we just posted a video on YouTube. I sat down with Todd White. He asked me to join him on a Zoom call to talk through the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5 21. 2 Corinthians 5 21, that God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And he had made comments about that, trying to explain in what sense Jesus became sin for us. There was an outcry, heresy, what are you saying? And he goes, no, I don't mean this or that.

It's been misunderstood. So he immediately contacted me to talk through the meaning of the verse. I sent him what commentary said on it as well.

Then he asked me if I'd do this Zoom call. So we just posted it on our YouTube channel, ASKDRBrown on YouTube. But remember, if you want to know when we post new videos, when we post new articles, you want to make sure each week you don't miss anything. Go to my website, AskDrBrown.org, ASKDRBrown.org. Sign up for these emails. When you do, we're going to share more of my own story with you from LSD to PhD, tell you more of why we do what we do and how we can be of help to you.

That's why we're here, to be of help and service to you. So be sure to get our emails, AskDrBrown.org. And when you do this way, you won't miss anything.

You won't miss a beat. And for those that want to know how did the conversation go, watch the video. Todd lays things out at some length and asks for my input and then we interact.

So that's over at our YouTube channel, ASKDRBrown on YouTube. Before my guest, R.T. Kendall, comes on to join us at the bottom of the hour, I fully understand that there are abuses in all different circles. There are abuses in charismatic churches. There are abuses in non-charismatic churches. There are leaders who abuse their power.

There are leaders who abuse their calling, their anointing, their gifting, whatever it may be, their charisma. This happens all over. This happens in the business world. It happens in the church world.

That people who have a position of authority or people who are revered or people who are admired or people who have financial power, whatever it is, that they can abuse their place. So I fully understand that that happens in all different circles. There is a unique way it can happen in charismatic Pentecostal circles where there is the appeal to the anointing of the Spirit.

And how dare you differ with the man of God. Now again, that can happen in a non-charismatic setting. All these types of abuses happen.

Sexual abuses, financial abuses, intimidation, manipulation. I'm fully aware of that. But there's the added element in charismatic Pentecostal circles where you have the anointed man of God. And I'm a prophet of God or I have a special anointing on my life where God's gifted me to heal and who are you to argue with me? Now think of this.

Think of this for a minute. It's one thing when you've got the pastor who really knows the Scriptures well and has a big following, very charismatic. So he's charismatic, meaning he's got a great personality and all that, but he's not charismatic in terms of tongues and prophecy and all that, right? And he's teaching and you just say, wow, this is off. This is not what the Bible says.

You're bringing in weird ideas here. It's intimidating enough to deal with that person just because they're the senior leader, because they know the Bible well, because they've got this charismatic personality, because they've got a big following, to write a letter to the pastor saying, I really believe you're in error here. Or it has to make an appointment with one of the other pastors to say, I have real concerns.

That's hard enough, right? But if you add in that the person you're about to speak to has all kinds of prophetic words, if you add in that you've watched them read the mail, so to say, of people who've come into the service that were complete strangers, and here the pastor has a specific word, and you've watched it happen with your own eyes, well, who are you to argue with them? And what if they quote from Psalm 105 15 out of context, of course, God saying, touch not my anointed, I'm the anointed of the Lord. That's why in my book Playing with Holy Fire, Wake Up Call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church, which came out in 2018, that's why I have one whole chapter on unaccountable prophecy, and one whole chapter on abusive leaders, and one whole chapter on mercenary prophets. In other words, these are all things that come up especially in charismatic Pentecostal circles.

So to say it once more, there can be abusive leadership in any setting, but there is a unique element to the way it can be empowered in Pentecostal Charismatic circles. Hey, let's say I'm laying hands on people in services, and as I do, you can sense the Holy Spirit moving powerfully in the room. You can sense the worship intensifying, and now people are being dramatically healed. Isn't it easy to think, I must be right about everything because the Holy Spirit works through me? And therefore, when I get up and proclaim this, or take this kind of offering, or give a deviant teaching from Scripture, who are you to argue with the anointed man or the anointed woman of God?

It becomes more difficult, and it's more intimidating. And what you have to do is separate, okay, maybe this person does have a grace on his life. Maybe this woman does have an anointing on her life. Maybe the Lord is working through them supernaturally with these gifts, but it doesn't mean that everything that comes out of their lips is therefore gospel truth. It doesn't mean, just because they seem to have the power of God working through them, that their interpretation of Scripture is correct.

Here, let me make it really simple. You can have all the faith in the world, but if you jump out of a 12th floor window of a building, you're going to crash to the ground and die. God is not going to overturn and suspend the laws of gravity for you. In the same way, he's not going to overturn and suspend the laws of grammar, right? If the Bible plainly says A, B, C, and you claim the Holy Spirit told you it's X, Y, Z, well then the Holy Spirit didn't tell you.

It's that simple, and everything is tested by the authority of the Word. Look, I just saw someone's post on Facebook last night, or earlier today, I think it was last night. A fellow I'm not familiar with. But he talked about having to go see his parole officer after getting another DUI conviction. And the parole officer says, can I tell you what the Lord showed me? And the Lord showed him, didn't say I was going to be wonderfully saved in preaching the gospel.

He goes, now 10 years later, I haven't had a drink for X number of years, I'm wonderfully saved, I'm preaching the gospel. The prophetic word came to pass. And just talking to some of my closest fellow workers, their son had some amazing prophecies spoken over him by a complete stranger in a Starbucks. I mean, striking. When we heard the prophetic words, knowing him, it's like, whoa, that's wild.

Out of the blue, by a stranger. And now more and more of those words that were spoken have come to pass. Almost all of them, in fact. It's quite remarkable. I mean, the examples that we could give of the Lord speaking and moving prophetically are endless. Because there are millions and millions and millions of people who have received these amazing words, or delivered these amazing words. And when I start to think of my own life and things I've seen with my own eyes, I start overwhelmed.

I start to think, wow, it's just amazing to see. So, I have no question based on the Bible that prophetic ministry is for today. Zero question. I don't just mean good preaching. I mean people hearing what the Lord is saying and delivering his message to others. So, I do not have any question whatsoever based on the Bible that prophetic ministry continues today. And I don't have any question based on my own experience and those whom I love and know, their experiences, that we can confirm by experience as well. So, we base everything on what's written in the Word, right? We base everything on what's written in Scripture. And then, if we find confirmation in our experience, wonderful. If not, then we look deeper to see why our experience is not lining up with what the Word says.

Why our lives are not lining up with what God says. But everything is tested by the Word. And, you know, I think of some things that the Lord spoke to me years ago that when he spoke them to me sounded absolutely, completely crazy. Just wild. Just out there. Just impossible. Not unscriptural.

No, no. In harmony with Scripture. But just the fact that I might ever possibly see this happen, it's completely outlandish. And yet, it came to pass. Just as God spoke it. Or things God had me speak to others that seemed, how in the world can I say this? I remember, this one little example jumps to mind from many years ago.

Oh, mid-1980s. There's a chapel service. And I have on my heart to minister to one of the students, a young lady, and the Spirit says to me she's been fighting suicidal thoughts. She's been fighting suicidal thoughts and just go minister to her. Well, I look over and she's got her hands raised in worship with a radiant smile on her face. And I'm thinking, how in the world am I going to share this with her?

I mean, she looks like she's overflowing with joy. And I'm supposed to minister to her about alleged suicidal thoughts she's having? But sure enough, sure enough, the moment I went and spoke to her, she broke down weeping.

And began to share what was going on in her life. I mean, I've seen things like that happen for decades. And we're going to hear from my guest, R.T. Kendall, momentarily about some wild, unbelievable prophetic experiences he's had. And yet, he and I and others are sounding the alarm. There's a real crisis. And we need some real prophetic integrity. So that's where we go next when we come back right here on the Line of Fire. This is how we rise up.

Harder speed and faster. Feels like Thunder. Magic static. Call me a fanatic. It's our world. They can never have it. This is how we rise up. It's our resistance.

You can't resist us. This is how we rise up. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. As promised, it is time to speak with my esteemed guest and colleague, R.T. Kendall, revered theologian, formerly pastor at the famous Westminster Chapel in England. Succeeded D. Martin Lloyd-Jones there. And, boy, his book, Prophetic Integrity, I wrote the foreword to it.

And as I started by saying, the book is as interesting as the man. R.T., welcome back to the Line of Fire. Well, delighted to be with you. Hey, let me ask you a question. Just so everybody knows, how old are you right now? Eighty-six.

I'll be 87 in July. All right. And thriving in the Lord, busy as ever, I'm sure. Wonderful to have you with us so you can impart the wisdom you've learned over the years.

Let me ask this first. For those who don't know you, don't know your theological background, you earned your doctorate at Oxford University. What did you write about?

What was your thesis on? It was on the nature of saving faith, from William Perkins, who's the fountainhead of Puritan thinking, to the Westminster Assembly. And I showed that the Puritans, who supposedly followed John Calvin, actually did not. They followed Calvin's successor, Theodore Beza. And so it sparked a controversy among the Reformed people, who have never forgiven me. I showed that John Calvin did not believe in limited atonement, which the Puritans did, following Beza.

I doubt you're interested in that, but that's my stable, you could say. Yes, so you are a respected theologian, and you read the Scripture through a theological lens, it's not just haphazard for you. At the same time, God over the years has really brought you into the things of the Spirit and the affirmation that the gifts and power of the Spirit are for today, including the gift of prophecy, hence your book, Prophetic Integrity.

By the way, I was so impressed with the endorsements to it, and Pastor Carter Conlon from Times Square Church and others, so pleased to see the affirmation of the book. But could you tell us a little about the journey, or maybe some of the unusual, supernatural things that you've witnessed yourself in prophetic ministry? Well, we can go way back, I was brought up in the Church of the Nazarene, and while I was a student here in Nashville, we now live in Nashville, at Trevecca Nazarene College, I was also given a pastorate, although I was only 19 years old. I pastored a church while attending Trevecca, and one Monday morning, driving in my car from Palmer, Tennessee to Nashville, on US 41, I had what I call a Damascus Road experience. It was not my conversion, I'd been saved before then, but to fast forward, because I don't suppose you want me to go into too much detail, the glory of the Lord filled the car, and there, to my right, as real as anything that's ever happened in my life, was Jesus, at the right hand of the Father, interceding for me. I never felt so loved and cared for in all my life, and the experience lasted about an hour and a half, and then it culminated in my entering into this wonderful rest of soul. I didn't know you could have peace like this on this earth, and I saw the face of Jesus, if I were an artist with perfect recall, I could tell you what he looked like, and changed my life, also changed my theology, and I've never been the same since.

That was a long time ago. I eventually left the Church of the Nazarene, but not in any protest or anger. I have a great relationship with Nazarenes.

In fact, Trevecca recently gave me a DD. So, in fact, I went to the Nazarene Church last Sunday morning, although I'm not a member there, so I have a good relationship with Nazarene. So, you had this incredible experience with the glory of the Lord and a fresh revelation of Jesus that made you to understand that certain aspects of the Spirit's work remained for today. And then some years back, not as far back, you had some encounters with different alleged prophets.

You didn't know what to make of it. You tell the stories beautifully in your book. So, Friends, the book Prophetic Integrity, R.T. Kendall, you've got to get all the stories in the book from that to meeting Yasser Arafat and all kinds of things. But tell us what happened. There's one guy you're meeting with that's supposed to be a prophet, but you're not sure, so you're pleading the blood of Jesus over the meeting.

What happened? Well, the people that I mention their names in the book are all dead. There are some alive today I don't mention that I think need to be rebuked, if I may be honest.

But the event you're talking about was back in 1991, when I went to California at the gracious invitation of John Wimber. And across the table from me is one of these famous prophets, and Bob Jones is his name. And I didn't know what to think of him, just a friendly old man, and I began to pray, Lord, sprinkle me with the blood of Jesus. Sprinkle me with the blood of Jesus, because I wanted to be sure I was safe from anything that was not of God. And my friend across the table, he just started saying, sprinkle me with the blood of Jesus, sprinkle me with the blood of Jesus. He said, that's good, that's good that you pray that.

My word, it can read my mind. But then, while I was there, I was really not spending time with him as much as I was with Paul Cain. And Paul Cain and I became very good friends. I won't say I was the best friend of Paul Cain, but I was pretty close to him. We went on vacations together. I took him fishing.

He asked to be a member of Westminster Chapel. And I had to bend the rules, but we took him in. And so these people I got to know very well.

And this is another one, John Paul Jackson, who died about eight or nine years ago. I got to know him very well. I was on his board. So I got right in the middle of all that, so I know what I'm talking about. Yeah, and you saw the good, the bad, and the ugly, especially with Paul Cain. So there was no question that something supernatural was happening, a gift was operating.

But then you also saw, particularly say with someone like Paul, the very human flaws. And it's that which you're really concentrating on in your book, Prophetic Integrity. Why did you feel such a burden to write that now?

You don't need another controversy at this stage of life. Why did you feel so burdened to write this? Well, that's a fair question. After the presidential election, a close friend of mine in London, who was a member of many years ago at Westminster Chapel.

He's a high profile man in England. And he said, RT, you need to write a book on all these prophets that got it wrong. I said, well, somebody ought to write it, but it's not me. And sometime later he said, is anybody writing the book? I said, no. He said, RT, if you don't write it, no one will.

I finally thought, yes, I will, and I've tried to be as honest as I know how. I don't mention names or locations. Only very few would know who I'm talking about. I'm not wanting to make anybody look bad. But I can tell you this, I am wanting to expose what I would regard as frauds.

There's something wrong. You know, people are dazzled by a man who can call out a name out of 50,000 people who he's never met and say, oh, wow, this is wonderful. But that same man, how come he doesn't know about COVID coming?

How come he doesn't know about violence in our streets? I could go on and on. And they gain and they gagged and swallow a camel.

And the world just floods to people like this. And I think, Michael, that it's a one-king-17 situation all over again. In the days of Elisha, when God said, I will send a lying spirit. Imagine it.

Strange language. But it's right there in the Bible. I will send a lying spirit. And in my opinion, Michael, that is exactly what has happened to all these prophetic people. We're not talking about dozens or hundreds, but thousands.

And they all are unanimous. They said, Donald Trump will have two consecutive terms. And then when it didn't happen, they said, oh, the Democrats stole the election, but Donald Trump really won. I said to them, but wait a minute. Didn't God know that would happen too? Why didn't he kill you?

Why didn't you know in advance that the election would be stolen? And you see, they won't climb down. They won't admit that God had it wrong.

And I think it's so sad. And you're very honest in the book about lessons you've learned in delivering prophetic words and mistakes that you've made. So you're not saying if someone gets one thing wrong and is mistaken that you stone them or throw them out for life, but rather when you're so dogmatic and so blatant and so strong and you clearly blow it, and then you don't humble yourself and repent, then something is very, very wrong with that picture. Again, the need—go ahead, please. Well, I was just going to say, in the book I show that you take Nathan the prophet. He was a valid prophet. And he told David, you can build—sorry, he told Solomon.

No. He told David. He told David, yeah. He told David he could build a temple. And then when Nathan gets home, God says, I didn't tell you to say that.

And Nathan goes back to David and says, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. You see, that to me shows integrity. It shows godliness. And I think if people will start admitting they get it wrong and humble themselves, it could be a revival of the prophetic. But I think at the moment, I think God is hiding his face.

I don't say he's not showing things to some people. But I do hope the book will cause people to pray more, be honest, and admit that we are all human, and not spit out the prophetic altogether just because people have made a mistake. I would urge people to know that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

And the teaching of Cessationism is just wrong. That God is alive. Hebrews 13, 8 says Jesus Christ is a thing. Yes, and the Spirit—I'm just jumping in because we've got a break. And the Spirit continues to speak and act. Because many have gotten things wrong does not mean that God is not speaking and acting in these supernatural ways.

Hey, we'll be right back with R.T. Kendall. Brand new book, literally hot off the press, Prophetic Integrity by R.T. Kendall. Lots of fascinating life stories shared in the book, lots of amazing anecdotes, lots of interesting statements on Scripture, things I'd never thought about, as I said in the forward, that got me thinking. And R.T., you take time in your book to talk about open theism and why that is so dangerous. Could you break that down briefly for our audience now?

Well, it would be hard to do it briefly. By the way, Michael, today is the day that the book is published. Yes.

I don't think we—I didn't think we knew that. Or maybe they set it up for that reason, but I didn't know until this morning. Yeah, hot off the press. That's why I said literally hot off the press. Exactly, yeah. Well, open theism was introduced to the charismatic movement about 40 years ago by a well-known theologian, a charismatic-type theologian from Fuller Seminary.

I don't think I should mention his name, but what he did was horrible. Open theism means that God is open to us to know what to do next. The premise of open theism is that God does not know the future, but he looks to us to know what to do in the future. So he knows the possibilities of the future, but he doesn't know which one you and I will choose.

And he waits to see what we choose to do, and then he leads. And people who like the idea of name-it-and-claim-it theology, they can just ask for anything, and God will do it because you claim it to be yours. And the same kind of thinking is, if you want something, you just proclaim it. And these people wanted Donald Trump to win, so they proclaim.

Donald Trump will win, and then they turn it into a prophecy. They turn it into a prophecy, and they say, this is the Lord. And they go so far as to say, God told me.

And this is where they cross over a line. To say, the Lord told me, means you better get it right, or otherwise you're not respecting the name of God. And so I have a whole chapter on the dangers of open theism.

I give 20 possibilities how to recognize it. Now, people don't know the term, but when they read what it will do, they say, oh, I didn't realize that that was open theism. And I consider that the most important chapter in the book. But also important is the concept of the oath, O-A-T-H, that God swears an oath to us, and that way we know we've got it right. This is how Elijah could do what he did.

God swore an oath to him. And these people are speaking not because they've heard God swear an oath, but because that's what they want to believe. And they turn it in to a prophecy and say, God told them. And I think it's dangerous, and I think it's horrible.

And they bring God's name down to disrepute, and the world laughs at us. And that's what I hope will wake up people, and it would thrill me to think that this book will do some good. I'm nearly 87 years old, won't live long enough to know whether the book is going to do that much good, but I hope it will. And I would go to the stake for what I wrote in this book.

Yeah, and it was my honor to write the foreword to it, because I've been so grieved and concerned over many of these same things for years, as someone like you fully believing that God speaks prophetically today, and that God heals today, and that these things should be normative in the body. And yet, the lack of accountability, the lack of mortification, just imagine if you or I from a national platform for months and months and months proclaimed something was going to happen and said, it's the Lord, it's the Lord, it's the Lord, it's the Lord. It doesn't happen. I mean, how would you feel? How would I feel? That would be agonizing and mortifying, and we'd humble ourselves every way we knew how, and we'd step back from what we were doing and reflect and submit ourselves. And people just keep bouncing on, and then the masses that follow them just bounce on with them. That concerns me just as much that the people who blow it aren't repenting, and the people who follow them aren't calling them to repent.

That should concern you as well, I'm sure it does. I'd like your listeners to know how proud I am that you wrote the foreword. Would you like to know who was my second choice?

Please, let me know. There was no second choice. I would not have had a foreword if you wouldn't have written it. And I was just so thrilled and honored that you would write the foreword to the book. Well, it really was my honor, sir. And in point of fact, when you said you were writing it, I said I'll write the foreword before I read it. And what a delight to read it. What a surprise. The Open Theism chapter was a special bonus, and just other things of great interest. So, last question for you, and folks, get the book to find out what's in it.

Prophetic integrity, literally hot off the press. That's why we timed it. I think our folks with the publisher timed it specifically for this. I see. Oh, I didn't realize that. And I just saw it on the calendar, but thinking back, I remember when it was set up, let's do it to time it for this day.

So hopefully we can give it a little push as well. But you didn't just succeed D. Martin Lloyd-Jones, one of the great expositors of the 20th century. He helped mentor you. So you are deeply a man of the Word and a man of the Spirit, and to they go hand in hand, don't they?

I think they do. They cohere, and the greatest need of the day, in my opinion, is a remarriage of the Word and the Spirit. If all could say in Thessalonians, our gospel came not in word only, but also in power, the Holy Ghost. And so much of teaching and preaching is word only, and we need to rediscover the person of the Holy Spirit, his immediate witness, direct witness. And I would think that this book, although it calls false prophets to come to terms with reality, I hope it will also make people see that there is a genuine prophetic gift. And that's why I've shared some personal experiences of my own, because I know, I know that God is not only very much alive, but reveals himself. And people who seek his face with all their heart will find out firsthand how real God is. You don't need to go to another person to have somebody else affirm you.

You can know by yourself, as you seek the face of the Lord, how real the Holy Spirit is. And that's where you and I, Michael, are on the same page. Yes, we are. We are.

Hey, my dear friend, hopefully we'll get to see each other face to face again one of these days. But thanks for joining us. May we see the marriage of the word and spirit like never before.

The new book, brand new, Prophetic Integrity by R.T. Kendall. Thanks so much for joining us today. You honor me. Thank you, Michael. God bless.

All right. What a joy. What a joy to speak with R.T. Kendall. I want to do this, even though we're only going to have to start this, as our friend Joshua has been faithfully trying to get a question asked on the air. You get the opportunity, sir, to get the question out. If I can't finish my answer now, I will get back to it ASAP.

But please lay out your question for me. I know you've been patiently trying to do it for some days now. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you receiving my question. And it's more of a follow-up question as to what you answered on Friday about the gift of the spirit being normative.

Yes, sir. Perhaps I missed... Well, I am not a strict cessationist, as some people may be. I am not a strict cessationist. As a confessional Lutheran, we are definitely not strict cessationists, though. When I'm talking about the gifts being normative, I'm not talking about whether they are for today or not. What I'm talking about is that as we preach, teach, and fellowship in the church, that emphasis of the gifts of the spirit has been taken so much over the preaching of the gospel to the point that... And the reason why I'm pointing this out is many pastors and leaders that I know being raised Pentecostal, they think the gospel message is only a gospel to preach to the lost. And I think that is a fundamental flaw that charismatic churches have. I'm not saying that none of them are going to heaven or anything like that. But the fact that there is not gospel preaching for the comfort of the church for assurance of their salvation, it seems like the experiencing the gifts and the spirit, it seems like all of that has replaced the gospel message. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Yeah, it's just not my experience and the circles in which I travel. In other words, the gospel truths are preached on a regular basis in many Pentecostal charismatic churches. There is preaching about the love of God or grace and being assured of forgiveness of sins.

I mean, that comes constantly to the point I had to write a book, Hypergrace, countering where things went to extremes. And there is manifestation of the gifts and you do see tongues, interpretation, prophecy, healing. But from my reading of the New Testament, we should see much more of that on a regular basis. But in no way does that, for a split second, take the place of the preaching and teaching of the word of God and the application of the message of the gospel. I can only say maybe you've been in certain circles where the gifts took the place of the word. I've never lived in those circles or ministered in those circles on a regular basis. But I can say that a hundred percent, the full message of the gospel should be brought to saved and lost and applied rightly. And a hundred percent, it should be backed by the power of the spirit and a hundred percent, there should be operation of the gifts of the spirit in our midst on a regular basis. That's what I see as the New Testament norm. All right, we may have to continue this conversation, but at least we took it another step further. God bless.