The Failure of Christianity Lite

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That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Well, thanks for joining us today on the Line of Fire. Are you ready to be blessed? Ready to be stirred? Ready to be encouraged? Ready to be challenged? Well, all the above should happen on today's broadcast.

This is Michael Brown. Here's the number to call 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-87884. At the bottom of the hour, I'll be joined by a dear friend of many, many years who's written an amazing eye-opening book about his own life story, life story and ministry and help you be well done in God rather than burnt out.

Yeah, we'll come to that at the bottom of the hour. And I want to bring you further encouragement on the heels of yesterday's broadcast where we talked about a Great Awakening is coming to America, a move of God, a stirring that I believe is coming. There are some who say, look, face it, the Bible says things are only going to get worse before Jesus returns, just accept it. Well, if that's the case then, then no one ever should have gone anywhere and preached the gospel because everything is just going to get worse.

And we shouldn't be talking about outpouring all around the world and saved billions of people over the years. We just kind of huddle down and wait, hunker down and wait for the end to come. And plus, who says that we are the final generation before Jesus returns? I'd love for that to be the case, but where is that written? What about the fact that the Bible says the harvest is the end of the age? And what about the fact that the Word of God says that Jesus is with us always even to the end of the age? And what about the fact that the Word of God says that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh in the last days? Personally, as I understand scripture, there's going to be great apostasy, great falling away, great darkness, and in the midst of that great light, in the midst of that great outpouring, the greatest harvest we've ever seen, the greatest demonic attack we've ever seen.

That's what I expect the closer we get to the end of the age. But I'm talking about the here and now, right now. In the midst of America's confused moral state, in the midst of America's slide into anarchy, in the midst of real critical negative times, which could mean the end of America as we know it. It is critical.

It is urgent. I believe we're on the edge of a great outpouring. In fact, what I'm seeing consistently around the country is this. What people are fleeing from right now in America, what people are dropping out of right now in America, is not the real gospel. It's not the real biblical faith. It is what you could call Christianity light, and there is no such thing as Christianity light. It's either the real gospel or it's a counterfeit.

It's another gospel. It's that simple. You cannot do deep sea scuba diving in one foot of water. There is no such thing as deep sea scuba diving in one foot of water. It's that simple. The thing simply does not exist.

You cannot fly a kite inside of a cave that's four feet tall. By very definition, by very definition, it doesn't work. The same way, the gospel is about transformed lives. The gospel is about leave everything and follow Jesus. The gospel is about he died for us and now we live for him. The gospel is about there is only one way to God and that's through Jesus, and only those who come to God through him are eternally saved. That's the gospel. When you water it down, when you change it, when you make it a what's in it for me message, when you bypass the cross, when you preach another Jesus, it's no longer the gospel. No wonder people leave that.

No wonder people flee from that. No wonder people get disillusioned and disoriented by it, because it's not the real gospel. Look, you preach a half-hearted message, you're going to get half-hearted results. You preach a compromised message, you're going to get compromised results. You preach a true message, you're going to get real results. You say, oh no, no, a lot of people, they're fleeing from evangelical churches and gospel-preaching churches and that's where the real problem is.

Well, often the problem is you have the form without the power. You have the words without the substance. You have a spiritual message in part without the reality of the message. Or you have hypocrisy, or the things that are really being lived out. Where it's being preached, where it's being lived out, people are giving their lives for the gospel. They are saying, I don't care what it costs me, I don't care how much I lose, I don't care what I suffer, I must follow Jesus. That's where you're seeing the results.

What I'm seeing all over America with consistency, of course around the world, but I want to talk about in America because we're in such a mess here in America. I'm seeing with consistency where Jesus is preached without compromise. Not some watered-down Jesus. Jesus would really like to be your friend.

If you just have him as your friend, he'd be so happy. But Jesus is outside in the rain and if you open the door of your heart, your nice little warm heart, he'll come in and... No, that's not the gospel. That's not the gospel. The gospel is flee from the coming wrath into the loving arms of God. The gospel is you need to be saved. You need to be saved. As others have pointed out, if there's someone drowning in the water and you come by in a lifeboat and you're ready to rescue them and they're about to go down for the last time, you don't say, okay, let's just have nice mood music now and hey, look, I know it's only take a moment and I don't want you to feel hurt.

No, the person is drowning. Reach out your hand and save them. And they don't care. They could be a white supremacist and a black hand reaches out to save them. They're dying. They'll take that hand because they're lost. How bigoted and hateful they are.

They're lost. Well, spiritually, when we recognize we're lost, when we recognize our sin, when we recognize our guilt, when we recognize that before God we should be damned, and then he shows us grace, love, mercy, salvation, becoming children of God, being forgiven, being free, being filled with God's very spirit, being with him forever and ever and ever. Not just forgiven and to sit in a corner. No, no, but forgiven and become a child of God. And the righteousness, the perfection of Jesus. Now, God gives to you and calls you a saint, a holy one?

What? Well, you know, I don't have time for this. Maybe I'll give God a few minutes. You don't understand salvation then. You don't understand salvation. If you've not come under the depth of conviction of sin and the depth of recognition of guilt and lostness, if you've not lived that out, then you don't understand what salvation is. When you do, you know, Rock of Ages cleft for me the words of that great hymn by Augustus Toplady, Nothing in my hand I bring simply to thy cross I cling.

Naked I flee to you. When you recognize the degree of your lostness and then not just salvation, but the abundant salvation, new life in God, God becomes our Heavenly Father. And we live with him and walk with him.

And we're forgiven and free. Whoa, Lord, here I am. Send me, use me, Lord. Everything I have is yours. Thank you for your mercy.

I'm your joyful bondservant. Here I am. That's the gospel. And when it's preached in the power of the Spirit and people are set free from their addictions and set free from their fears and set free from the things that have destroyed them for so long and they're liberated in Jesus, people come flocking.

It is happening all over America. Let me just read a few things. Is one of our grads missionary back in the States for a bit? He said, I didn't get to listen to your full broadcast today, speaking of yesterday, but we'll listen later. I did hear the part where Keith called in, also one of our grads, but a ministry colleague for many, many years and a powerful revival preacher. He said, I just preached on spiritual hunger a couple of weeks ago at Pastor Brandon's church, another grad, and just have to say yes and amen to what you talked about. I can only speak for myself, but the Lord is definitely stirring something in me for a greater hunger for him like I haven't had in years.

It's happening all over America. The stirring, the hunger, the thirst, the cry. Here, pastor writes to me on Facebook, Dr. Brown, I loved your broadcast today. Again, speaking of yesterday, you said you wanted to hear if God was moving in a specific area. I passed your church in Muscogee, Oklahoma, and we are experiencing a move of God. We've seen people on their backs or on their face in recent months along with miracles that have started to take place. When I moved here from California, the church was dead, but God has revived it. I'm 29 years old, and I desire the genuine outpouring that I've read about from great men such as Ravenhill, Finney, etc. I'm in tears as you have read the testimony about the kids in Ireland on their knees while at school as God came upon them.

1859 account. We are seeing God shake the young people in our church as well. You are a blessing to my life, and I appreciate your ministry.

Friends, this is happening all over America. If we'll press in, if we'll seize the moment, if we'll say enough is enough with our casual Christianity, enough is enough with our compromised Christianity, or in the worst cases, enough is enough with our counterfeit Christianity, and get back to the real gospel and the real message and the real cross and the real resurrection and the blood of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness and consecration, if we'll preach those things in a living way and worship God with all of our hearts, have an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit is welcome to move and meet us, you will see people come flocking. Oh, you'll get opposition, you'll get hatred, you'll get mockery, you'll get criticism. That's always a good sign when it's for the gospel. But you'll see people flocking.

Here's someone sent this via Twitter. I couldn't hold my tears during the show today. I gave my heart to Jesus 15 years ago in a revival. I became a pastor eight years ago, and I truly believe that the greatest revival in all history is coming. Thank you, Dr. Brown, for your faithfulness to the Lord. Listen, you know I don't mince words. You know that on a constant basis, and if you've known me since I first started preaching in 1973, the central message has been repent, wake up.

It's an urgent hour. The church, in many ways, is messed up and compromised. We need to turn to God. And we're constantly talking about what's happening in the world around us and the messed up state of things. We're never mincing words.

I'm never speaking to satisfy people's itching ears. But as sure as I'm sitting here, God's up to something. Things are happening. To repeat from yesterday, 2 Chronicles 16, 9, the eyes of the Lord go throughout the whole earth, looking back and forth throughout the whole earth that he might stand in strong support of those whose hearts are wholly his. Cry out wherever you are, Lord, I'm yours. I'm yours. I belong to you, heart, soul, mind, strength. Lord, I'm yours. We'll be right back. Revolution, shake the nation, change the world, change the world.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us at the bottom of the hour. Just a few minutes from now, I'll be joined by my guest, Dennis Bambino. In fact, let me just get you the details.

I want to make sure that I have the info. I love this book. I wrote an endorsement for it. Let me make sure, yeah, I'm sure I had the exact title right. A recipe for fried Christian going from spiritual burnout to well-done lover of God.

Yeah, good play on words there. So we'll be talking to Dennis. If you've done ministry work over the years, if you find yourself burnt out now, I think you'll find this to be a really helpful interview. All right, someone might say to me, Mike, even if you're right, even if there's going to be another outpouring in America, even if all over America God's going to pour out a spirit and many will be saved and churches revived, how does that affect the larger culture?

What are these another revival for? If that's the end all, if it's just a matter of Christians getting refreshed, lost people getting saved, and it stops there, then it stops way short, way, way, way short. Instead, what has to happen is that a revived church, I'm talking about the people of God on fire for the Lord. I'm talking about the people of God putting away hypocrisy and compromise. I'm talking about the people of God really making an impact for God. As the people of God are touched and come alive and the light begins to shine, as backsliders turn back and get right with God and get on fire for God, as lost sinners are saved and made into disciples and the church acts with a moral conscience, there can be an impact around us. In other words, revival in the church can lead to awakening in the society. Revival in the church is not just a series of special meetings and everybody getting all worked up and excited.

No, no, it's something more, something deeper, something greater. There is visitation that becomes habitation, that the move stays with us, that it changes the way we live. And look, the Jesus people movement, a whole bunch of us got saved, late 60s, early 70s, up to the mid 70s. And many of the people saved then have become leaders in different areas of ministry around the world, or in different areas of society. On the flip side, the counterculture revolution of the 60s, people came out of that, became college professors, but with a radically different ideology, became media influences, but with a radically different ideology, became political leaders, but with a radically different ideology. So that ideology really won out the day and turned the hearts of many in the nation and turned us away from God, the sexual revolution, radical feminism, pro-abortion movement, gay activism, various things, people very sincere about their agendas and feeling they're fighting for what is right and good, but ultimately, in a wrong, destructive way, so we're reaping the fruit of that, kids, grandkids, great-grandkids of ours reaping the fruit of that today, but this is how generational change comes. What happens if a whole generation of young people now who are right now largely hostile to God or not believing at all or dropping out of church, they really encounter Jesus and they get rightly discipled, and we're conscious about raising up leaders who go out into every sphere of society living out the gospel. That's how you see a shift come.

You have an immediate result, but then the long term is the larger shift, so we don't need another flash-in-the-pan movement. We need something that will make a generational impact or will be the final generation to usher in the return of Jesus. I want to take you to Rochester, New York, in the year 1830, and Daniel Norris, who, in turn, studied under Steve Hill, worked along with Steve Hill for years in ministry of Angela Steve Hill, whom God used to spark the... excuse me, who God used to spark the Brownsville Revival in 1995, so Daniel has a great heart for revival and evangelism. I want to play a couple clips about Rochester, what happened, the prayer behind it, and then tell you the end results of the story back in 1830.

Let's listen. The greatest outpouring of Charles Finney's life came here to Rochester, New York, in September of 1830, and just six short months, this city would be completely transformed. It was a revival so significant that even Finney's harshest critic would call it the greatest work of God and the greatest revival of religion that the world has ever seen in so short a time. 100,000 salvations were recorded during the revival.

Imagine that, my friend, 100,000. They came from all social classes, from politicians to businessmen, along with lawyers, teachers, physicians, and farmers. It was a citywide reformation that shut down bars and caused the crime rate to drop dramatically. This event was the spark that ignited revivals that spread across the Northeast and New England during the Second Great Awakening. It became the blueprint for future evangelists and revivals throughout the 19th and 20th century. This is a significant stop on the trail of fire. Evangelist Charles Finney came to Rochester, New York, in September of 1830 to fill... All right, so came there to fill the pulp. Sorry to cut in there.

Just had my time signature off. And before he engages in ministry, there were two men, Daniel Nash and Abel Clary, and they would pray. They would intercede day and night. This is what laid the groundwork for the ministry.

Let's listen a little bit more. This trip, he was joined with his family and his friends, Daniel Nash and Mr. Clary. Finney's strategy for winning a city was simple. Prevailing prayer and powerful preaching.

In the years prior to Rochester, Finney had perfected his style and become an effective soul winner. Upon arriving into town, Nash and Clary sought out a room for rent to begin a prayer meeting. They shut themselves in that room and began to intercede for the city.

Nash and Clary would be rarely seen outside. They remained in that self-imposed cell, where they were overcome with the spirit of prayer. They would fast for days, prostrating themselves on the ground, and through weeping and wailing, they made intercession for the city. Finney relied on the power of prayer. Prayer became the foundation of his ministry and the key to his success, a point that we must all learn from. All right, one more clip I want to play and then tell you the last few results.

So you may be a Finney fan or not. I deeply appreciate his ministry. But at the foundation of it, intercession, prayer, crying out, and then preaching an uncompromising message.

One more clip. My friends, study revival history. Look to the trail of fire and you will see the pattern has always been the same. Revival does not come by accident or happenstance.

It may come suddenly, but never accidentally. It's time that we once again begin to prevail in prayer and get back to the preaching of the gospel. These are the two most effective tools that the church employs. They may have taken a back seat in recent decades and our cities have paid a price as a result. A hurting city is the outcome of a weakened church, but however, they need not hurt any longer. The gospel coming in fire and power with revival can shake a whole city. So this is from my book, From Holy Laughter to Holy Fire, talking about this very event, Finney's preaching in Rochester over a six-month period. This was what John S. Tompkins reported in an article entitled, Our Kindest City, printed in the July 1994 issue of Reader's Digest. Tompkins wondered why it was that the city of Rochester, New York, was rated the kindest, most altruistic city in the nation in two separate polls, one taken in 1940 and the other in 1990 to 1992. He discovered the surprising answer. He was thinking, what made Rochester special?

1940, 1990 to 1992 polls taken, it was considered the kindest, most altruistic city in America based on what? This was an article in Reader's Digest. Look at what Tompkins discovered.

This is what he wrote, quoting from the article. Finney spent six months in Rochester and converted, that's his way of saying it, converted hundreds of residents, lawyers, doctors, judges, tradesmen, bankers, boatmen, workers, master craftsmen to born-again Christianity. He scorched their consciences and urged them not to follow the selfish ways of the world. Finney angrily denounced the evils of selfishness and deliberately aimed his message at the wealthy and powerful. So this finished preaching in 1830.

Let's continue. Having converted the affluent, Finney's final step was to get them to direct their energy and wealth into beneficial philanthropies. He was amazingly successful. Rochester embarked on a church-building boom. Rochesterians went on to establish a university, organize charities and self-help agencies, build a public school system, fight against slavery. This is upstate New York, right?

The city was a station on the Underground Railroad, which smuggled slaves into Canada, formed unions and reformed prison system. Rochester became a city where love for one's fellow man was more than an empty phrase. And Tompkins, listen to me, friends, Tompkins is saying that as of 1992, so over 160 years after the meetings, they were still feeling the effect. This is what happens when people get really converted and say, I want to do something about the injustice in our society. They get really converted and they say, I want to do something to help the poor. They get really converted and they say, I want to do something to change the schools and give them a more godly foundation. They get really converted and say, we've got to address the breakdown in marriage and family and societal change can come. It starts with the people of God coming alive. It starts with true bonafide revival outpouring that gets the church back to being what it's supposed to be. That gets the lost hearing a real gospel and getting radically and dramatically converted. And then there's a ripple effect. Society can be impacted. Friends, with all my heart, I believe that we are in the early stages of a gospel based moral and cultural revolution.

If we will really take hold of God as if there's no tomorrow, who knows what tomorrow may bring. We'll be right back with a special guest. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on today's broadcast of The Line of Fire. I've been looking forward to this interview now for many weeks. So I was teaching at a Bible school on Long Island, Christ for the Nations Institute of Biblical Studies, a branch of the famous Lord School in Dallas. The school on Long Island existed from 83 to 91, and I was there from 83 to 87. So I was in my late 20s, early 30s teaching one day. And most of the students were, you know, college age. And a couple came in actually older than me. I remember well-dressed, kind of distinguished looking. And I taught I thought some really good in-depth stuff about the high priest in ancient Israel and how this foreshadowed the Messiah and foreshadowed our priestly calling and I remember meeting with this couple. They wanted to find out about the school. I thought that's interesting.

They're older than me. And the husband was considering coming to the school and was a businessman and didn't seem too impressed by the teacher. Like, yeah, that was good basic stuff. I thought, OK, that's interesting. Well, anyway, that man, Dennis Bambino, with his wife, Jackie, now married 53 years. Dennis came as a student, graduated from the school, became a faculty member, planted a church, has been doing ministry around the world, but has learned a lot of lessons along the way and is passing them on in a brand new book that he's written. So, Dennis, welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks, Mike. It's so good to be here. So many good memories from those days at Christ for the Nations. Yeah, amazing.

And some of the people that were taught and trained there have really gone out and made an impact for the Lord. Hey, Dennis, how many kids do you and Jackie have? We have three girls and 12 grandchildren.

Twelve grandkids. Wonderful. Yeah, I ran into one of your daughters in D.C. back in September at an event there. So it's a long time since we've seen each other.

But we walked together. I remember you planted a church. You were given a synagogue to use part of that, revamped it. I remember coming in to preach for you and the rabbi was there. Just some wild things over the years, but then a lot of ups and downs. And you've written a book which is brutally candid, where you talk about not being in your right calling, getting burnt out.

What is it now? After all these years, you're in your 70s, you've ministered around the world. As I said, what moved you to write this book now? Well, Mike, I knew that my experience of being in ministry, marriage, and business, that led me into being burnt out. That the lessons that I learned of how I got there could be life-saving for so many people. I know so many in marriage, ministry, people who have gone through church experiences that are just fried. And it's my desire that the book would help them to realize not just the path that got them there, but the path that will get them out and become a well-done lover of God. Because that's what God did for me. He was so faithful. And when I crashed, He intervened and just renovated, reoriented, reformed my life.

Yeah, Dennis, the book is really candid. And again, having lived through some of it with you, I could only just, ouch, oh, that hurt. Or, oh, that was worse than I realized. Or, oh, I didn't know about that part of the story. But it's not just what went wrong as you were sincerely trying to follow God.

It's not like some moral failure. As you were sincerely trying to follow God and do ministry, you got burnt out and you realize that in certain ways you're outside of your calling. But the practical life-giving suggestions in the second half of the book are super valuable.

So for those who haven't made the mistakes, this is a way to not make them for life. Again, the name of the book, a recipe for a fried Christian, going from spiritual burnout to well-done lover of God. Dennis, what would you say was the essence of why you made certain wrong decisions or ended up spending years outside of your primary calling?

Well, I think it really boils down to the foundation that I was living out of was very much performance and program-oriented. And it wasn't centered on a very deep, intimate relationship with the Lord. After I went through the crash and just totally surrendered, the Lord asked me the question, when did the Great Commission supersede the Great Commandment?

And I was so performance-oriented that I missed that completely. I mean, I heard, you know, if you'll let me keep my commandments, and what I heard was commission, so I did it. I mean, I went full bore into ministry to the nations, to build churches, to make disciples, whatever the Lord would ask of me. And believing that my obedience was my way of loving Him. But the book is built on kind of a wordplay on Matthew 25, 21, well-done, good and faithful servant. And of course, being performance-oriented, I heard, well done.

So I'm going to go out there and I'm going to get it done. But I missed the good and faithful part of it. And I came to realize, and that was part of my restoration, that he's more impressed with who I've become than what I've done. And he's looking to recreate us, reform us into the very image and likeness of Jesus. And that was the Reformation that I went through. He had to unearth all of the precepts, concepts, hurts, wounds, misconceptions, lies, that I was running with and really rebuild me from the bottom up.

And that's what the book is all about. You know, that what I've become is now a lover more than a laborer. You know, if you love me, keep my commandments.

I miss that also. It's love Him first. And I'm still learning how to dwell, how to abide, how to wait upon the Lord. It's the John 15 branch abiding, remaining, and living out of an intimate relationship with the vine. Jesus said, without me you can do nothing. So trying to produce fruit is not the object of the branch.

Abiding is. So He just turned me upside down and inside out. But He had to get me to the place where I was totally surrendered. And it took all of that breaking, you know, for me to plunge into depression, experience betrayal, hurts, wounds.

I describe all of that in the book. And so many people that I know and so many ministers have gone through those kinds of experiences. But for me, it wasn't the experience that was the problem. It was that the reality of God in me was not big enough to overcome the reality I was walking through. So He had to really bring me into a place where He revealed His nature, His person. I had always worked for approval, and I had to, by revelation, come to the realization that I'm pre-approved. I'm approved of my Father in Heaven, and I no longer work for approval but out of approval. And that brings a tremendous sense of rest. It brings a tremendous sense of God knows what He's doing, and He'll use me when He wants me, where He wants me, how He wants me.

And I can trust Him for that. So it's a whole new ballgame. Yeah, and you know, friends, I can say it in a certain way that this book, it took Dennis decades to write because he lived through the bad experiences, but all through it, bearing fruit, impacting lives. And then the rebuilding, the restoration, the change that Dennis is talking about, friends, is not something that happened overnight.

This is also over a period of years. But Dennis, what I want to focus on for a moment here, we've got about three minutes before the first break. Again, the new book, A Recipe for Fried Christian. I knew you back in those years. You were definitely a drill sergeant. I mean, you're a great disciple maker. That's what you were known for in the school. You lived a very disciplined life yourself.

You were disciplined the way you taught the students. But you seem like a lover of God. You seem to... The things you're saying now, I would have thought you knew back then. In other words, you're making it very black and white, but it's subtle, isn't it? Because you would have said back then, oh yeah, I love the Lord and I'm doing this out of love, but beneath it, something was wrong. So it's often more subtle. So many pastors, leaders, they go through the whole ministries without ever learning what you learned. Oh, absolutely, Mike.

It was very subtle. Again, one of the primary adjustments that God had to make was that serving Him was not necessarily loving Him. Obedience isn't necessarily because you love someone. You can be obedient to the law without love, but you can't love without being obedient. So love comes first.

And out of that love, you just want to please the person that you're in love with. So it's not even a matter of command or commission. You just go, you just do it. Whatever you want, Lord. So yes, I was very much a soldier, but I wasn't very good at sitting. Sitting, dwelling, waiting upon the Lord. I mean, I could teach principles without the presence of God. And God is faithful. I mean, when you teach His Word, He shows up.

I mean, He blesses people. Prophecies were right on. Healings took place.

Salvations took place. But inside, I was incomplete. I was never satisfied with how good it was. It was never enough.

It was never good enough. I could have said this, I could have done that. And so you're constantly working against the need for approval, satisfaction, peace, you know, identity. So that had a change. My identity has changed from being a servant to being a son.

And I can be satisfied in that. And you know, one of the scriptures that woke me up was, you know, from Matthew 7, 21, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? And in your name cast out demons and performed great, you know, great miracles. And He said, I never knew you. Depart from me, you worker of iniquity.

And I was like, oh my goodness. I mean, I need to know you, Lord. I need to know who you are. I need to see you.

I need to live out of the secret place. Not just jump in and out whenever I need help. Not go to your word because I need a word for a sermon or a message.

But live in your word and live out of your word. Yeah. We've got to jump in here.

We've got to break friends. Some of you are listening and thinking, that's me. That's me. Get the book.

It is super practical. Been through it. Endorsed it. A recipe for fried Christian by Dennis C. Bambino.

We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire.

I'm speaking with my old friend, Dennis Bambino. We had the joy of working together on Long Island decades ago, and he's finally written a book, not just with his life story, but with life lessons that are crucial. The kind of thing that if people could read early on in ministry or early on in their Christian lives, it would save a lot of heartache. The name of the book, A Recipe for Fried Christian.

Dennis, the school setting in certain ways was ideal in terms of laying out precepts and training and teaching. And you went from there to a church setting. I remember when you tried to work together with other pastors on Long Island and said, hey, you have a gift here. You have a gift here.

You have a gift there. Why don't we all work together and put a school together? They looked at you like you were talking a foreign language.

The idea of working in a cooperative unity way wasn't in their heads. And then pastoring was different than a school setting. So now you finished teaching at CFNI.

The school closes. Now you start pastoring at church. What did you learn in the process of that?

What did you have and what did you not have? Moving from the school setting, I call that Christian Shangri-La, because students came there, they paid money to be there, you could discipline them. If they didn't really connect with the plan and the program of discipleship, you could ask them to leave. But in the church setting, you had a lot of people that didn't have that mindset, a discipleship mindset. So attempting to impose a discipleship process on people that just wanted to be cared for, they wanted their felt needs met, was extremely frustrating for me. We attempted to do it on different levels.

Some of it worked. But what it did in the church was create a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure on people to, what I call, do things they didn't want to do to become something they didn't want to be, to go someplace they didn't want to go.

And that was part of the fuel that built to a crescendo when there was a real breakdown in the church. And that created in me personally a sense of failure, a sense of loss of identity, because I put myself into it so much that it became who I was. It became who I wanted to be. And when anyone puts their whole being into doing something, it probably never comes out the way you want, and then it's questionable as to whether or not you were valuable enough, whether or not you were strong enough, smart enough to really do what you wanted to do. So that was critical to my Reformation, is the change of identity from a worker to a worshiper, from a servant to a son.

So that I am now, I believe, so secure in being a son that the success of what I do is really up to God, and I can rest in that. So, Dennis, as you've worked with many leaders around America, around the world, I mentioned the lack of people willing to work together in a unified way that you ran into because it was more like competition, and thank God they're fine men and women of God. You've met them, I've met them, worked with them. I don't want to give a wrong or false impression, but would you say that many, many pastors and leaders are not ministering out of security, and that's why there's so much unhealthiness in the Church? I've met, and I think you have also, really hundreds of them, that were called into the ministry, and they're trying their best, they're sincere but sincerely wrong. If they're attempting to build a ministry without the grace to do it, without the unction, without the presence of God, then they're going to experience failure, and they're going to experience hope deferred and dreams crushed and crashed.

That's what happened to me. And then you have to go back to the drawing board and say, why am I here and what am I doing? And the Lord is so faithful.

I know that His faithfulness to me is His faithfulness to anyone that calls upon His name to reorient you to a first love relationship. I found out that we put Jesus in a box alongside of our other programs, prayer in a box alongside of other programs. If prayer is not central, if the relationship with God is not first, everything else is going to wither and die.

If it's been birthed of the flesh, then it's flesh that's got to keep it going, and your strength runs out and you become exhausted, depressed, and fried. So I found out that Jesus doesn't want to be first. He doesn't want to be the first in line.

He doesn't want a line. My wife doesn't want to be my first wife or the first woman in my life. She wants to be the only one. It's Christ-centeredness, and I have to confess, we preach the Gospel, but Christ wasn't central. It was everybody jump on board the latest program. Everybody get into a self-group. You know, everybody go on a missions trip. Everybody get into discipleship class.

Everybody read the Word. But it wasn't a devotional life where people were enjoying the presence of God and enjoying their walk with the Lord. So one of the litmus tests for me now is my joy level, because there's very little joy when you're working hard and you're pushing against almost immovable forces. And of course, what plays into that, of course, is demonic forces that want to keep you from really producing a lot of fruit. So the joy level is very low. For me, it was very, very low, almost nonexistent. There were very few things you could celebrate, because there was always another battle.

There was always another program that was needed to fix the gap or to help people along the way. And you wound up doing a lot of things you weren't called to do and you weren't graced to do, for me. So when you're in places that you're not called to, your grace level is very low and you're liable to burn out very quickly. Yeah. And, you know, Dennis, what's so remarkable is I remember you making reference to that analogy that your wife does not want to be the first in a line of other women, you know, put Jesus first, put your wife first.

Well, what does that mean? I remember you saying that decades ago, and yet the reality of it took years to hit. I'm sure it's with all of us. We understand in our head, but we haven't really gotten it in our heart, and we're actually teaching others and we don't have it, which means they're not going to be able to really get it either, because we can't really impart what we don't have. So as a result of that, as there are many people insecure, unhealthy in ministry, it produces unhealthy churches, and then people just in the body, they get in the same works, performance thing, they end up dropping out, and it creates a vicious cycle. But on the flip side, when people live by the good principles, it produces a cycle of life, and I think you're actually seeing that just even in your own family and kids, grandkids, those closest to you, that the life that's in you is more naturally reproduced in them, and then it reproduces from there. We've got two minutes, but would you say that you've seen that cycle of life now, reproducing itself? Oh, absolutely, and I would direct anybody to realize that head knowledge is not revelation or spirit knowledge, and we've got to give God enough time, we've got to spend enough time musing on his word, waiting on him, so that what we know with our head explodes in our heart and becomes such a big reality that nothing, absolutely nothing, no circumstance, no situation, no other person, no demon in hell, can destroy it, because you've come to know that you know that you know. And revelational experiences of God need to be continuous. We will never see the end of God, and we need more of him and more of him and more of him, especially as these days that we're looking at are getting darker and darker.

We've got to grow deeper and deeper into the light. Yeah, and friends, it's an inevitability, just like the branch abiding in the vine, the believer abiding in Jesus, fruit will be produced. Friends, I'm not sure if you can get this book everywhere, but if you go to Amazon, as I'm looking right now, a recipe for fried Christian going from spiritual burnout to well-done lover of God, you get the paperback, but the Kindle, the e-book, if you like e-books, I read almost exclusively on e-books these days, that's about half price. So get it for yourself, give it to a pastor or leader you know. If you've got folks young in ministry or going to Bible school, it's so helpful to know this. Again, and Dennis, thanks for being so open and honest.

It's not easy to do that, but bearing your soul, but then giving life-giving principles. As I went through the first half of the book, I'm like, oh, it's so painful to read this, and I went through the end and all the practical wisdom, everything you've been through, man, the hardships, the challenges, the difficulties of the decades, it's going to bear a lot of fruit in many who read this book. So thanks for writing it, and I hope to see you again soon, man. God bless. Keep up the good front. Yep, we are going for it, man. Here together on the front line, say hi to Jackie and the kids. A recipe for fried Christian by Dennis Bambino. Another program powered by the Truth Network.