The Drive with Josh Graham - CMC=MVP? - 10/7/19

This is The Drive with Josh Graham Podcast.

Tune in to The Drive weekday afternoons 3-7 on Sports Hub Triad. The Carolina Panthers have won three in a row. I see everybody today applauding Christian McCaffrey and pumping up Brian Burns after his defensive touchdown. However, remember this. It's not talent that separates teams in the NFL. It's culture. Think about it. The talent gap between the best teams in the league and those that are 500 is marginal.

It's very small. I won't go as far to say it's microscopic, especially in today's day and age where the Dolphins are taking and you see how bad the Redskins are. Where Jake Rudin is getting fired at 5 o'clock in the morning, despite the fact his team put up a fight in the first quarter of that game against the New England Patriots. But, speaking of the Patriots, they're always seen as the example of this franchise that dominates every single team in the NFL. They've gone through this run where they've been dominant in the AFC East. Three of the last four Super Bowls they've been in them.

Tom Brady has won six rings. Probably could have won more than that if not for Reli Manning and Nick Foles, but they were the less talented team in the last three Super Bowl wins they've had. Atlanta had more talent than the Patriots did. The Los Angeles Rams certainly had more talent than New England. The Seattle Seahawks more talent than New England, but it's the culture.

It's the expectation that you're going to win. It's the coaching and what's fostered there under Bill Belichick that I think makes all the difference. The Carolina Panthers, during this three game run, I don't think Carolina's more talented than Houston. With all the injuries Carolina's had, I didn't think they were more talented than the Jaguars yesterday.

Purely from a talent standpoint. But Carolina won the last two games because Ron Rivera has fostered this winning culture. A winning culture that has now made him the all-time winningest coach in Carolina Panthers history with that win yesterday. And it seems fitting that it comes the same day the Panthers are inducting four new members to the Hall of Honor. Smitty, Jordan Gross, Jake Delone, and Wesley Walls because Ron Rivera is soon going to be there one day. He's the best coach the Panthers have had and he continues to evolve and to innovate. And the thing that stands out to me about Rivera versus Fox is just how many guys in that locker room would go to war for Rivera. If you ask any of those players to talk about Rivera, they get borderline emotional because they just want to run through a brick wall for that guy. He seemed to be a player's coach.

Excellent from an X's and O's standpoint. When pressure was put on him to make changes as they were losing games last year. He takes over defensive coordinator duties and they get immediate response to it. Holding the New Orleans Saints to 12 points or something last year on Monday night. This year the defense has been a lot better.

They're off to an 0-2 start though. Ron Rivera kept everybody composed. Just listen to the way Luke Kuechly described Rivera who got the game ball yesterday following his franchise record number of wins.

He's the best. Coach Rivera is one of those guys that he loves the players and I think that's the best part about him. Obviously he's a great coach, he understands ball, but I think he loves the guys and I think the guys appreciate that, guys feed off that.

And he's always super constant. We've been in tough situations since I've been here where we haven't started as well as we needed to. Like this year, we started 0-2 and everyone could have said the sky is falling, but Coach Rivera does a great job of keeping everybody involved, everybody encouraged. And has the same message every week that we're a good football team, we just need to play like it. We're happy for Coach, he's done a tremendous job since he's been here and we're excited to get that for him.

It's just a really neat deal. Christian McCaffrey, big day yesterday, record start to the season for Christian. He's doing amazing things, but three years ago the Panthers selected him 8th overall when nobody really was projecting McCaffrey to go into the top 10. And it was seen as a no question Leonard Vornet being a better running back than McCaffrey. And Vornet, nice player, had a nice day yesterday.

But if you redraft that draft a few years ago, how high do you think Christian McCaffrey is going? And McCaffrey didn't forget about that when asked about Rivera after the game. It's special.

It's really special. He deserves it all. I love Ron, obviously he believed in me and just for drafting me, that meant a lot. He took a chance.

A lot of people didn't. There were seven teams in front of me that didn't and he did. So I'll always be appreciative of that. He deserves it. He's a heck of a coach, a heck of a mentor to all of us.

So happy for him. Over his nine year NFL head coaching career, he's won 73 of his 132 games on the sideline. It all goes back to this winning culture. And it's not just Rivera. Greg Olsen, after the Tampa Bay game, he was speaking to us in the locker room. He said, the NFL is not going to feel bad for us because Cam Newton's hurt, because guys are going down, because we're 0-2. We just need to buckle up and find a way to win games.

Not feel sorry for ourselves. Trey Turner and Dante Jackson are out the last two games? Figure it out. KK Schwartz on injured reserve? Next man up. Burton Butler getting into the backfield making a player two yesterday. Next man up. Execute.

That's what the Panthers challenged their players to do and they were up to the task. John Masco. We spent time talking about him on Friday. He's the Panthers offensive line coach. Burly dude.

Kind of somebody who veers away from talking in the media and such. But how amazing was it that Christian McCaffrey had all the holes he was able to run through? Considering how good that Jacksonville front is. With Glaius Campbell and Ngakwe in the middle of that defense.

Marcel Darius also was clogging up holes. But insert Dennis Daley in the place of Greg Little. Insert Greg Von Roten in the place of the injured Trey Turner and they don't miss a beat. And not only do they not miss a beat, McCaffrey's rolling over people.

And then when McCaffrey gets banged up at the end, there's Reggie Bonifant running through a massive hole and scoring a touchdown. It goes back to what Ron Rivera has taught and what he has fostered. It's a winning culture and that's the difference in the NFL. There isn't much difference, talent level, between the Kansas City Chiefs, the New England Patriots, the Green Bay Packers and some of the lesser tier teams in the NFL. The Jacksonville Jaguars, the Atlanta Falcons. It's not that different.

But coaching and culture matter so much in the National Football League. The Drive broadcast live in the Law Offices of Timothy D. Wellborn Studios. You can tweet the show at Sports Hub Triad.

336-777-1600 is the phone number. Desmond Johnson is producing today's program. We're going to catch up in about 20 minutes with Cody Martin, recent Hornets draft pick. It's a pretty neat story this week where the Hornets, they're going to be playing a game in Winston-Salem at Joel Coliseum.

Preseason game against the Sixers. Cody Martin at one time was at NC State Wolfpack. Then he transferred to another Wolfpack with Nevada. But before that, he was at Oak Hill Academy. And before that, he grew up in Mocksville, Davie County High School. So it's going to be a neat deal for him. Very close to home playing a preseason basketball game for the Charlotte Hornets coming up this week.

So we're going to chat with Cody in about 20 minutes. The table really is set, though, for the Carolina Panthers to make a Super Bowl run. It only happens with Cam Newton on the field. Every indication I've gotten out of Charlotte, the people I know and talking to them about Kyle Allen and Cam. Every indication is when Cam returns, this is going to be his team. It doesn't matter how many games Kyle Allen wins.

He's done a nice job. But back to the coaching part, that's what they expected. They didn't have Kyle Allen in the position he's in currently if they didn't expect him to be able to step in with the talent around him and have some success.

If you're one of those people that are pushing against what I'm saying right now, an anti-Cam person. Oh, he's 0-2, Josh. And Kyle Allen's 4-0 as a starter, three of the four games being on the road. What's the most memorable throw that Allen made yesterday?

Tell me about the one deep down the field that he made between two defenders. Tell me the throw Allen made that Cam Newton couldn't. And while you're thinking about that, I'll remind you that Cam's not someone who's had a lot of foot concerns.

And when he comes back from the foot and he's healthy, I can list off two sets of hands, maybe four sets of hands, the kinds of plays Cam can make with his feet that Kyle Allen couldn't possibly make. So Carolina, they're a good team right now. And that's because of the culture that Ron Rivera has instilled in Charlotte. But the only way they go from being a good team right now to being a great team, a contender to win the NFC, they need Cam Newton. And right now it's a very good stretch for Carolina because you have Tampa Bay, beatable team in London.

Not going to be easy. Tampa, they beat Carolina and Charlotte. They beat the Rams by a ton, hanging 50 plus on the road in Los Angeles. That's a team that beat Carolina, the Rams. So it's not going to be easy.

It's not going to be a walkthrough by any means. But if you get that win, you're 4-2 going into the bye. And after that, the San Francisco 49ers who played a night in their run defeated. No one's thinking that's not a winnable game for Carolina, regardless of who's playing quarterback. And I think Cam Newton might be back for that game.

I think that's the earliest he could return, October the 27th. Then the Titans are at home before that stretch against the Packers, Falcons, and Saints. It's realistic you're talking about a 6-2 football team.

It really is. Coming up, why Christian McCaffrey, though, isn't my NFL MVP through five weeks? This is The Drive. When you're up in the air, you're thinking what? I'm not thinking anything.

It's kind of just a split second. I just hope you get in the end zone and try to land graciously. He might have meant gracefully flipping into the end zone. There are a lot of defenses that wish Christian McCaffrey would be gracious to them.

But no. Flipping into the end zone, I'm interested, and in fact, I might be interested to take phone calls on this. What would happen to you if you even attempted to do what Christian McCaffrey did flipping into the end zone for that touchdown?

3-3-6-7-7-7-1-600 is the phone number. We're on Twitter, at sportsubtriad. Amazing game for McCaffrey, and that was my exchange with him yesterday following the Panthers' third consecutive win, this time against the Jacksonville Jaguars. As great as he was, he is not my leader for the MVP award through five weeks of the NFL season. Russell Wilson should be the favorite as of right now. I get McCaffrey's numbers are great, and there are so many you can pull. When he's thrown into the same category as Jim Brown and is doing something for the first time since Thurman Thomas was running around in Buffalo over everybody, I get that he's been tremendous. But this is a quarterback award. That's what Most Valuable Player is. The last six winners of the award, all quarterbacks. 11 of the last 12, all quarterbacks.

So I know what we do in the media. Guy's doing something ridiculous. We did this with Antonio Brown two years ago when he was terrific with the Steelers, and now we're doing it with McCaffrey. Put this guy in the MVP discussion, and he will be there. It's good for Carolina that he's talked about today as an MVP candidate through five weeks.

But here's the thing. Russell Wilson, he's had more of an impact. And I think until Cam Newton returns, Seattle's football team is better than Carolina's is. And it's because of Russell Wilson. It has more to do with the position McCaffrey plays than his ability, than his performance. If you're playing quarterback, you have a better shot at winning the award because it's about value. McCaffrey, he has a massive game against the Los Angeles Rams. They still lose, right? Like McCaffrey, even though he could take over games, and they needed him yesterday to beat Jacksonville.

That's fine. What Russell Wilson's doing week to week, if he doesn't play well, Seattle loses. Carolina could still win a game if McCaffrey doesn't play well.

They just can't. And they can lose games when he doesn't. Russell Wilson's numbers, they're absurd right now. He doesn't lead the NFL in passing yards. Mahomes does.

But get this. 12 touchdown passes, no picks. He leads the NFL in touchdown passes right now.

I think most people would have thought that was Mahomes. 12 TD's, no interceptions for Russell Wilson. Then there's the running element that he has that not even Mahomes has at the moment. So I really like the Seahawks right now. And I like Russell Wilson, who was great again against the LA Rams on Thursday Night Football. He's putting up absurd numbers.

And right now they're only losses to the New Orleans Saints, who are a very good football team at the moment. So give me Russell Wilson. Here's the funniest thing today.

The funniest thing, I see a lot of narratives on Friday and today nationally, heck even a little bit regionally. Man, we often forget about Russell Wilson. Man, where did this guy come from? We often forget he doesn't get enough credit, Russell Wilson. And then today, Christopher Caffrey. We've all forgotten about Christopher Caffrey. What football person forgets about Russell Wilson and Christopher Caffrey?

It seems like a straw man to say that. We get it. Seattle's not the biggest football market. We get it. Carolina, Charlotte is not that either.

But I'm just going to let the regional media and national media know. We know who Russell Wilson and Christopher Caffrey are. If you don't, you don't follow football close enough.

You probably don't play fantasy football if you don't know how great Christopher Caffrey's been the last two years. Russell Wilson? Did you miss the Super Bowl?

The one he won and the one he should have won? I mean, where have you been on that? Did you miss Russell in bed with Sierra telling people, hey Seattle?

Did you miss that too because he got paid and we all covered that very closely? It's just something that's bothered me today. Who's really waking up Friday morning or this morning saying, holy bleep, who's this Russell Wilson guy? And Christian McCaffrey, what's he about? I'd love for somebody to not know who McCaffrey is and then just look at the stats. You know what that would be like.

It's a movie. You're in a coma and you wake up and you just look at McCaffrey's stats. Oh my gosh, this guy, he must look like Ezekiel Elliott.

This guy, he must be bullying people over like the bus did. I want to see what this guy looks like. He must look like Adrian Peterson. What? Christian McCaffrey doesn't look like the running backs I'm used to seeing at the top of the running backs leaderboards.

It looks a little different, Nes. Hey Seattle. Shout out Russell there real quick. But to your point about running backs having not very good odds to win the NFL MVP.

Can I guess who it is? Like Peterson's the last one, yeah? Yeah, Peterson's the last one. So in the past 20 years, there's only been three running backs that have won the MVP.

All right, let me try. You want to try to guess them? Okay, give me the years though. Okay, so 2012 was Adrian Peterson.

Like I saw the stat today and I read it off. I didn't know who the specific backs are. So give me the years. 2005 and 2006. Didn't Falkwind win late 90s, early 2000s? That was 2000. Okay, so the last 20 years.

Yeah. Okay, so Falk was in 2000. You said 2005, 2006?

Well, the Ladanian Tomlinson season has to be one of those. That was 2006. And Sean Alexander was on a Madden cover.

There you go, 2005. And the thing between all three of those that I noticed, they all broke some kind of record that year at running back. Sean Alexander broke the rushing touchdown record that year for a running back and then Ladanian Tomlinson broke that the following year. And then in 2012, Adrian Peterson was threatening to break Eric Dickerson's all-time single season rushing record. So in order for Christian McCaffrey to really win this award, he's probably going to have to join that 1000,000 club. That 1000 yards rushing, 1000 yards receiving that only Marshall Falk and Roger Craig are in. I think he has to rush for 2000 yards.

Is that possible? Well, here's the trend right now. Like, people have done the math. If he continues at the rate that he's going right now, he's on pace for 2251 rushing yards, 21 rushing TDs, 971 receiving yards, five receiving touchdowns.

That's Canton. That's what he's on pace to do right now. So I'm not taking anything away from McCaffrey. It doesn't make what he's doing any less impressive if he doesn't win the MVP award. Just listen to the way Greg Olsen described it.

Had a chance to walk over to Olsen's locker. He was just talking about what McCaffrey has been doing of late and this is what he said. I mean, how do you even put into words, you know, the ability to run long runs, run short yardage, extra yards after contact, catch the ball out of the backfield, play receiver, play slot, let's pick up. There's not a whole lot of other things you can do as a running back than he does. And there's just not a lot of other guys, if any. You know, there's maybe some other guys that can do what he does in the passing game, but, you know, they're not getting 25 carries also. Here's a misconception people have about football. It's very little about tricking people and more about executing something better than the other side does.

Even if they know what you're doing. Olsen, I always learn something every time I talk to Greg. And he brought up something that looked apparent from the naked eye, but we couldn't tell for sure until we went into the locker room. They seemed to run the same play more than a dozen times and the Jags just couldn't stop it.

It turned out that was exactly the case. I don't know if I've ever in my career heard the same call in the huddle so many times. Typically in the NFL, in the run game, you'll repeat plays, typically in the pass game, maybe twice, but a lot of one-timers. But in the run game, you hear a play two or three, maybe four times in certain situations. I don't even know off the top of my head how many times we ran the same play.

I feel like I went in motion and came back a thousand times. Yeah. Same play. Jags just couldn't stop it, even if it's Reggie Bonifant running the football at the end. I don't understand why more pro teams do not do this. You see it in high school all the time, where a team, if they see something that's working, like actually in the East Forsyth-Grimsley game this past Friday that we called, we saw the same thing over and over, that Grimsley just kept running up the gut, kind of like what the Panthers were doing. If it's working and your guys are executing, keep running that thing until they stop it. Well, it rarely ever works this kind of way. That's the reason why. Like, yeah, I think most coaches agree with exactly what you're talking about. If you're getting four every single time, or four or five, you keep doing it. But the thing is, that never happens.

Except yesterday, and Norv kept going to it, and we saw what happened as a result. The Drive brought to you in part by our friends at Pie Guys Pizza & More. Pay them a visit in Clemens, right off of Lewisville-Clemens Road. It is the best spot to grab pizza, or a Moravian sugarcane pie, or, just saying, the Buffalo Wing's very good there too.

Underrated, in my opinion. I judge the quality of a pizza place by how good the wings are. And Pie Guys, it's legit over there. Online at pieguys.com. Again, in Clemens, the Lewisville-Clemens Road, in the Kinnaman Village, right off the Lewisville-Clemens Road, in the Kinnaman Village Commons.

You can find them. Got tripped up a little bit there, but it's Monday. Cody Martin is a second round NBA draft pick of the Charlotte Hornets. You might know him as that, or you might know him as a former NC State Wolfpack basketball player. Or, even further back than that, you might know him as somebody who played high school ball at Davie County High School, in Mocksville, North Carolina.

Cody Martin will join the show next on The Drive. So the Carolina Panthers win in Charlotte last night. Three consecutive wins for Carolina, or I guess it was in the afternoon. While that was happening, the Charlotte Hornets had a preseason basketball game against the Boston Celtics, and they'll have another one right in our backyard here in the Trietto Coliseum, Friday night. Tickets are still available for the Sixers and the Hornets, which will feature our next guest, Cody Martin. Once upon a time, you might have remembered him playing at NC State for one set of Wolfpack, then playing for Eric Musselman in Nevada, a very good team that made the tournament last year. That's another Wolfpack. But before that, he was at Oak Hill Academy, and then he was in his hometown of Mocksville, North Carolina, playing at Davie County High, along with his brother, Caleb.

Everybody still remembers the Martin twins. Cody, before we get to the basketball, did you grow up a Panthers fan, too? Yeah, I feel like I have been, just because being from North Carolina, it was awesome to see for us to have a team and keep with them for a little bit, yeah.

Because you were playing in a preseason basketball game in Boston last night. I wonder how much longer does it take following the game for you to check and see what happened with the Panthers? I got to keep up with some because our teammates do, too, on the flight back. But I've been here and they've been doing really, really well. How much family are you expecting this Friday night at the Joel? Man, I'm already expecting there to be a lot of people there. A lot of my family members and friends are going to come.

And I know it's just going to be exciting just because being from right down the street, I know everybody wants to be their supporter, so I know it's going to be a good environment. Do you think you'll see some Davie County jerseys or are they going to be No. 11 Charlotte Hornet jersey?

I think there might be a combination of both. It's Cody Martin with us on Twitter at Cody underscore Martin 15. That's Friday night, 730. We'll be there. Sixers, Hornets, Joel Coliseum in Winston-Salem. What are the earliest memories you had, Cody, of watching college basketball or the NBA around here? Honestly, being from there, when I was younger, I used to watch a lot of Carolina games, being from North Carolina.

And then just growing up and stuff and then obviously going through high school recruitment and things like that. Being able to take my visits and visit North Carolina State, it grew on me, especially being from right down the street and being close to home. So that was a big deal for both of us, me and my brother. Just being from North Carolina, to be able to go to school like that and be in the ACC and have all the support from home, it meant a lot. Who were your favorite North Carolina players when you were watching, like when you were younger? When I was younger, one of my favorite players ever was Vince Carter. I just loved his style of play and how exciting it was. I was a big fan because my uncle was a big fan too. And obviously Michael Jordan, you know, him going there too. So those two were probably the biggest ones that I used to watch.

And then you even have guys that they even got to play against at one point. I used to watch the market stage too. Here's the reason I ask, because you're 24 years old, yes? Yes, sir. Okay, which means you would have been nine years old when North Carolina won the national championship in 2005 against Illinois.

Marvin Williams was a top five pick in that draft. He's now your teammate, man. Have you told him yet that you watched North Carolina growing up? I haven't told him, but he knows that we used to watch him. He's our OG, he's like our overhead on the team. He's a great dad, man, just being around him and understanding what he does. He teaches us a lot of things on the road and what it's like to be a professional, man.

I'm so glad to have him as a fan on our team. Growing up, what's the best story you could tell me about when you and your brother got mixed up? I mean, that's every single day, so that'd be way too many stories for that. Is there one where a coach was yelling at you and thought it was actually your brother? That was at Nevada. I was getting chewed out over a play that happened, and I know it wasn't me, so I was just sitting there taking it. And then right when he got down, I was just like, hey, coach, that was Caleb. And then he didn't even yell at him anymore. He was still mad at me because I sat there and took it. Hold a second, though.

This sounds like a good idea. If you ever slip up, did you ever slip up and think, no, coach, you got the wrong guy. It was actually him.

Most of the time, you don't want to interrupt coach when he's mad, so you kind of just got to take it right there and say whatever you got to say. It's Cody Martin with us. Draft pick for the Charlotte Hornets.

It's Friday night. Joel Coliseum. It is the Sixers facing the Charlotte Hornets.

So I'm seeing that Shaq has been involved in a wrap beef with Dame Lillard, looking around what's going on in the league. Is there anybody in the Hornets locker room you think could hold their own behind the mic? Oh, I know Miles and Dave Grant, and they actually got some good stuff. Y'all got to go check it out. They're putting out good music, man. They're working on it. They're also working on their craft. They're just having fun with it. I think they're actually doing a really, really good job.

I'm not keeping up too much with the beef that they got going on over there, but I heard about it. Be honest with me. You're trying to play it cool when J. Cole's just hanging out at practice? J. Cole, I met him probably three, three, four years ago while I was at North Carolina State. I met him because he was at the Dale, which is our practice facility.

We were just hooping, and we always ran pickup, especially during the summer. He came through, and we just started talking one day. He's just real laid back, and he's a really good dude, very humble. How would you assess his game?

Say it again? How would you assess his game? Man, he can shoot the ball. He actually can play. I know there's a lot of people that are trying to act like, oh, he's just one of the better players out of the Raptors.

But no, he can actually play. Give me the chicken or barbecue joint you have to visit around here when you're around Mocksville or Davie County. I would say for me, especially when I lived closer in Davie, it's always Miller's. I always ate at Miller's.

All right. What are you getting at Miller's? I always get this thing called a distro sandwich, basically like a spicy chicken tender sandwich kind of thing. I always get a side of fries and some ranch and get some sweet tea.

It's my go-to every time. I've got a feeling they don't have anything like that in Charlotte, Cody. They got some good food around here, man, but it's hard to beat home cooking.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Cody, look forward to seeing you. It will be home cooking for you as the Sixers face the Hornets Friday night.

Thanks so much for doing this, man. Thank you. All right, that's Cody Martin, second round draft pick for the Charlotte Hornets. From Mocksville, North Carolina, Davie County guy.

NC State, then Nevada. And now to the NBA. It really is a neat story. And you can find tickets again for this game still. I think you could go through the Joel. You can go through the Hornets as well. We're going to be out here. Dez is feeling spirit of the day. He's got his Hornets.

Dry fit on. Charlotte hooking us up a little bit. The season's right around the corner, man. It's our 23rd, I believe, is open at night. 23rd. So we're a little over two weeks away from that. They open things up, I think, on a Wednesday night.

So that checks out. Aaron Gabriel in the house as well. A reminder, speaking of Charlotte and basketball, we're going to be at Operation Basketball tomorrow. DG and myself will be broadcasting out there. So it'll be seven hours of local basketball content where DG is going to catch up with... I don't know who DG is going to have tomorrow.

Like he told me earlier. I mean, it's all big names. So let's start there. Massive names that DG is going to have on the show. We're going to have as well. I'm trying to figure out if he's going to catch... I know we're going to get Coach K tomorrow. We're going to have Roy Williams on the show tomorrow. We're going to try and catch Jim Boeheim. Get him back on in Greensboro because we know how much he values Greensboro.

Oh, yeah. And I think we're going to catch some Duke and North Carolina players. Maybe a little Jabin Delaurier, Jack White action. Some Garrison Brooks as well. We got Danny Manning on the docket. So there's a lot tomorrow. Wes Durham hanging out with us.

Maybe a J. Billis. So Operation Basketball, it's something we always look forward to every single year as the kickoff event for basketball. But we're in the only place, I think, in America you could talk about basketball 12 months out of the year. So this is the kickoff event officially for basketball. But we've been talking basketball the last month and a half, really. Getting ready for the start of the season. And we'll visit a lot of those storylines. We're going to introduce Aaron Gabriel to the coaches and players. Aaron, are you going to wear those shades indoors tomorrow?

The entire time. Yeah. How would you describe the shades that you're wearing right now?

Very round, very circular. Is that a Stormtrooper T-shirt? Oh, that's actually Magneto. Oh, that's Magneto. Sorry, it was black and white. Yeah. It's hard for me to see that it was Magneto.

You can understand why I thought it was a Stormtrooper from afar when it's black and white. Maybe. I guess if we stretch it. That's what I'm saying. The judges will allow it. Yeah.

You'll hear the latest additions to the Shaq Dane lowered rat thief next. I couldn't believe it until I got to the sideline and watched the replay. Honestly, I thought it was going to call it an incomplete pass or something, but I mean, this is great.

It's a great feeling. That's my first touchdown pretty much ever since Lilly. That's Brian Burns, Panthers linebacker. Scoop and score. Will you ever get a touchdown that's as easy as the one that he scored coasting to the end zone?

You'd be hard pressed to find one like that. Before we get to the Shaq Dane lowered update, the rat thief between those two, I want to stay with Brian Burns for a second because last week he had the ongoing debate that really sparked controversy on this show arguing in the locker room with Gerald McCoy, who would win a fight out of Superman or check that, Spider-Man versus Batman. That was stimmed because they were excited about the Joker coming out. Now, this is not a Batman movie. There is no Batman in the Joker. I had a chance to see this Saturday night, so I was interested to know while preparing for this football game Sunday afternoon in Charlotte, getting set for the Jaguars, did Brian Burns have time to watch the Todd Phillips movie starred by Joaquin Phoenix, the Joker?

Here's how that exchange sounded. Did you guys see the Joker this weekend? Already seen it. What did you think? It was great.

I think he did a great job. I feel like it was a different twist from the original Joker in Dark Knight, so it was good. Better Joker? No. I don't know. It's too different.

They're two different kinds. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker is right there with Heath Ledger's. I saw it Saturday night, and don't worry, there are no spoilers to be found here. No spoilers for this movie, but I will say the way that this movie's being discussed, Joaquin Phoenix's performance of the Joker and Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight, it reminds me a lot of the Michael Jordan LeBron James debate where, for some, the latest thing is the best thing.

Think about it. That movie came out 11 years ago. So you see people who are young who think, that is the original Joker.

There's a lot to unpack in that piece of sound by Brian Burns. Him saying original Joker there, I think, speaks to what we're talking about. Some of these players now, NFL players, would have been 9, 10 years old when that movie came out.

Like, it's not uncommon that that is the case. So, comparing it to MJ and LeBron, there are people who don't remember watching Michael Jordan play, who are chiming in on this LeBron James debate saying LeBron's the best because numbers and individual statistics. On the flip side of that, there are people, much like those who will not welcome any player being seen in the same light as Michael Jordan, who saw The Dark Knight and said, there will never be another Joker performance that's as good as Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight. They are not willing to welcome anything else. There was a large faction of people that believed no one would play The Joker again because Heath Ledger was that good in the 2008 Dark Knight. Right?

So, you can see where I'm headed here. There were people who would not welcome the idea of somebody being better. Sounds a lot like the Michael Jordan guys, the Heath Ledger people kind of having the same debate. Nobody could be as good as Heath Ledger was. I'm not saying it's better. I'm not saying Joaquin Phoenix was better than the Heath Ledger Joker. I'm saying they're in the same conversation.

Like what Burns was saying there. It's two different kinds of Jokers. You got an origin story going up against a fully developed Joker. Like this Joker is not supposed to be the deviant, step ahead of everybody else villain. This is how he turned into that. That's the premise of the movie.

Meanwhile, Heath Ledger's Joker, it is that. It's a step ahead of everyone else. It's devious, it's brilliant, it's mastermind type stuff. Case in point example, grabbing a pin. I don't know why I actually grabbed the pin in my studio as if you guys can see it. Do you want me to see this?

Do you want to see me make this pin disappear? We eventually got there, Aaron. Wham! No, it's a really good movie though. He's going to win Best Actor.

Like that's how legit it is. And the category is going to look weird because we're staring right down the barrel a situation where Joaquin Phoenix is playing the Joker, nominated for Best Actor, going up against Adam Sandler in that category and Tom Hanks as Mr. Rogers. We're staring at that possibility a few months ahead of time. I'm just trying to prepare you for what might happen.

And if that is the case, Joaquin Phoenix is winning going away. Yes, Seth. How was the security of the theater? I know you were worried about that going into this movie. I went Saturday night. I risked my life. You went on a Saturday night. I did. All that talk about I don't want to go but there's a lot of people there.

I couldn't resist. My brother went on Thursday and Friday. He told me, Josh, Josh, you got to see this movie. You got to see it. You went Thursday and Friday twice? I want to see it two more times. I am so excited to see this movie again.

There was a police officer right outside the theater. I high-fived him. I said, thank you for being here, sir. High-five. That's what I did. I don't know if that made me a suspect.

Good luck trying to stop me. High-five. Yes, Aaron. I have no idea. I'm at a loss for words. I just never in my life thought to high-five a police officer.

The thought never occurred to me. Is this the cultural divide between the glass and – Possibly. Possibly. The real cultural divide between the glass here in the law offices of Timothy B. Wellborn Studio. Well, you said it. I'm like, high-five a police officer.

What kind of life is this man living? It was right outside the theater. So, yeah. That's crazy. I paid $24 for the ticket, the two tickets.

Oh, okay. I was like, $24? And my date had $30 worth of like candy slash drinks and stuff. It cost us $30 for two drinks, two things of candy, and a popcorn.

It's about $60 for this movie date? Oh, yeah. That's insane.

That's crazy. I'm going to go again. And you're going to go again.

I'm going to go again. At least the movie was good enough. We weren't thinking about how much – It was. It was. I never do. We got that. It's best that way. That's what I'm talking about.

336-777-1600. You're right. Host of The Drive. That sports hub chick coming through. Falling. We got that.

Falling. That's what we got. Aaron, did you see this movie? I did. I watched it last night. All right.

Again, no spoilers. I feel like I don't want to be the guy on the radio that's telling parents, hey, protect your children from things and such. No, but don't take your kids. Right.

Don't take your kids to this. Yeah. That bad? Yeah.

Yeah. There are parents across America who are caving this week because their kids are writing them saying, oh, it's a Batman movie. Oh, it's a comic book movie. It's fine.

How bad could a comic book movie be? Don't cave. Don't listen to them. You'll thank me later. It's very dark.

Sound advice. It is the most dark comic book movie I've ever seen. If you thought the Dark Knight was dark. Is that a Joker laugh? Okay.

On three, I want us all to do our best Joker maniacal laugh that we could come up with. Okay. One. Simultaneously? Yes. Two.

Three. Speaking of things that we can laugh at. What is that? Mr. Hankey? I was trying to get a little. Yeah. What was that? Some harmony. Some harmony. Okay.

Speaking of things that we can laugh at. Shaq and Dame lowered are at it again. I haven't heard the most recent Dame lowered rap, but the way it went was Dame lowered was asked who he thought was a better rapper, himself or Shaq.

So of course he said himself. It's kind of like a ridiculous question we ask players. You can ask any NBA player, hey, are you better than LeBron? And they'll say, yeah, I'm better than LeBron because you're asking a player if they're better. What did you want him to say? Yeah, Shaq's better than me, even though I rap all the time and I claim to be a very good rapper.

Anyway, putting that aside. After that comment, Shaq put out a rap about Dame. Dame responded in kind. I thought Dame crushed Shaq. I did. I didn't think it was close, but then Shaq felt the need to respond and his first one sounded like it was recorded in his bathroom.

Let's see if it got any better. Okay before we completely react to what we just heard, let's hear the rebuttal, even though we just heard a few seconds of it. Here's Dame Loehrer. Once again, I think Dame Lillard, he proved what he said to whatever interviewer Dame Lillard was asked, who's a better rapper, him or Shaq? And I think over the span of two raps, Dame's raps don't sound like they're in a bathroom. And I actually would listen to Damian Lillard song Shaq's just sounds goofy.

It does. It sounds goofy and dated Dame Lillard. No question. He's crushing Shaq here. If the question is who's a better rapper after hearing the second one, because he switched his flow.

Because remember I was coming on, I was getting on him about doing Shaq's flow, but he actually switched up his flow on the second one. So if it's about the best rapper between the two, I'd give the Dame off of these. However, if it's about who's getting that who in this rap beef, it's Shaq, not Dame. Who thinks that Shaq has less ammunition to work with than Dame?

There's plenty of stuff. There aren't a lot of things that Dame Lillard can say. Like if you're going at one of the most popular players ever in the game, you did it. He didn't ask for this. He was asked who a better rapper is. He said him and he proved that he's the better rapper. Nobody asked to get included into a rap beef, you get brought in it.

Like someone calls you out. It's not like you're like, I wish somebody would put me in a rap beef. Dame Lillard likely loves Shaq. That's what's killing him in this.

He's not killing him. He's proving that his songs are better. He's better at rapping than Shaq is. He proved it. He's not dissing him at all.

Like the two songs Dame has put out, I haven't really heard anything. I don't think he's trying to. That's why he's losing it to me. But I don't think he's losing. I think he's winning because of quality. Another thing too, Shaq is winning because Shaq is using beats that everybody knows. Like Shaq is using... That was victory.

That was victory before his B.I.G. What did we first do when it came on? We started bobbing our heads. I did not.

You automatically just like, oh. I did not bop my head. I was listening to it and thought it was goofy. What do you mean I was bobbing my head? Me and Aaron are in here listening to it and as soon as victory hit, we start bobbing our heads.

It makes you listen to them more. I'm glad. I'm glad, but Dame Lillard's more original. Dame Lillard can do multiple flows.

Dame Lillard doesn't sound like he's rapping in a bathroom. It's by far Dame Lillard over Shaquille O'Neal. I don't think it's by far. It's a landslide.

Dame Lillard over Shaquille O'Neal. It's not even close. You are listening to WSGS Winston-Salem, WCOG Greensboro, WPCM Burlington, WMFR High Point. All those signals making up Sports Hub Triad. I couldn't believe it until I got to sideline and watched the replay. Honestly, I thought it was going to call it an incomplete pass or something, but I mean it's just great.

It's a great feeling. That's my first touchdown pretty much ever since Little League. That's Brian Burns, Panthers linebacker. Scoop and score, will you ever get a touchdown that's as easy as the one that he scored coasting to the end zone?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one like that. Before we get to the Shaq, Dame Lillard update, the rap beef between those two, I want to stay with Brian Burns for a second because last week he had the ongoing debate that really sparked controversy on this show, arguing in the locker room with Gerald McCoy, who would win a fight out of Superman or check that, Spider-Man versus Batman. That was stimmed because they were excited about the Joker coming out. Now, this is not a Batman movie. There is no Batman in the Joker. I had a chance to see this Saturday night, so I was interested to know while preparing for this football game Sunday afternoon in Charlotte, getting set for the Jaguars, did Brian Burns have time to watch the Todd Phillips movie starred by Joaquin Phoenix, the Joker?

Here's how that exchange sounded. Did you guys see the Joker this weekend? Already seen it. What'd you think? It was great.

I think he did a great job. I feel like it was a different twist from the original Joker in Dark Knight, so it was good. No, I don't know. It's too different.

They're two different kinds. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker is right there with Heath Ledger's. I saw it Saturday night and don't worry, there are no spoilers to be found here. No spoilers for this movie, but I will say the way that this movie is being discussed, Joaquin Phoenix's performance of the Joker and Heath Ledger in the Dark Knight, it reminds me a lot of the Michael Jordan, LeBron James debate where for some, the latest thing is the best thing. Think about it. That movie came out 11 years ago, so you see people who are young who think that is the original Joker.

There's a lot to unpack in that piece of sound by Brian Burns. Him saying original Joker there, I think speaks to what we're talking about. Some of these players now, NFL players would have been nine, 10 years old when that movie came out.

I guess it's not uncommon that that is the case. So comparing it to MJ and LeBron, there are people who don't remember watching Michael Jordan play, who are chiming in on this LeBron James debate saying LeBron's the best because numbers and individual statistics. On the flip side of that, there are people much like those who will not welcome any player being seen in the same light as Michael Jordan, who saw the Dark Knight and said, there will never be another Joker performance that's as good as Heath Ledger in the Dark Knight.

They are not willing to welcome anything else. There was a large faction of people that believed no one would play the Joker again because Heath Ledger was that good in the 2008 Dark Knight, right? So you could see where I'm headed here. There were people who would not welcome the idea of somebody being better, sounds a lot like the Michael Jordan guys, the Heath Ledger people kind of having the same debate. Nobody could be as good as Heath Ledger was. I'm not saying it's better. I'm not saying Joaquin Phoenix was better than the Heath Ledger Joker. I'm saying they're in the same conversation.

Like what Burns was saying there. It's two different kinds of Jokers. You got an origin story going up against a fully developed Joker. Like this Joker's not supposed to be the deviant step ahead of everybody else villain. This is how he turned into that. That's the premise of the movie.

Meanwhile, Heath Ledger's Joker, it is that. It's a step ahead of everyone else. It's devious. It's brilliant.

It's mastermind type stuff. Case in point example, grabbing a pin. I don't know why I actually grabbed the pin in my studio as if you guys can see it. Do you want me to see this, make me pin, do you want to see me make this pin disappear? We eventually got there, Aaron.

Oh, wow. No, it's a really good movie though. He's going to win best actor.

Like that's how legit it is. And the category is going to look weird because we're staring right down the barrel, a situation where Joaquin Phoenix is playing the Joker, nominated for best actor, going up against Adam Sandler in that category and Tom Hanks as Mr. Rogers. Like we're staring at that possibility a few months ahead of time. I'm just trying to prepare you for what might happen. And if that is the case, Joaquin Phoenix is winning going away.

Yes, Steph. How was the security at the theater? Cause I know you were worried about that going into this movie. I went Saturday night. I risked my life. You went on Saturday night. I did. All that talk about, I don't want to go, but there's a lot of people there.

I couldn't resist. My brother went on Thursday and Friday. He told me, Josh, Josh, you got to see this movie.

You got to see it. He went Thursday and Friday? He went twice? I want to see it two more times. I am so excited to see this movie again.

There was a police officer right outside the theater. I high fived him. I said, thank you for being here, sir. High five. That's what I did. I don't know if that made me a suspect.

Good luck trying to stop me. High five. Yes, Aaron. I have no idea. I'm at a loss for words. I just never in my life thought the high five of a police officer, the thought never occurred to me. Is this the cultural divide between the glass and possible? It's a real cultural divide between the glass here in the law offices of Timothy B. Wellborn Studio. Well, you said it. I'm like, high five a police officer.

What kind of life is this man living? It was right outside the theater, so yeah. That's crazy. I paid $24 for the ticket. The two tickets.

Oh, okay. I was like, $24? And my date had $30 worth of candy slash drinks and stuff. It cost us $30 for two drinks, two things of candy, and a popcorn.

It's about 60 bucks for this movie date? Oh, yeah. That's insane.

That's crazy. I'm going to go again. And you're going to go again.

I'm going to go again. At least the movie was good enough. We weren't thinking about how much you spent getting in there. It was.

It was. I never do. Well, you got that. It's best that way. Yeah.

Yeah, that is popular. 336-777-1600. You're right. Host of the drive. A sports hub chick coming through. We got that.

It's balling. That's what we got. Aaron, did you see this movie? I did. I watched it last night. All right.

Again, no spoilers. I feel like I don't want to be the guy on the radio that's telling parents, hey, protect your children from things and such. No, but don't take your kids. Don't take your kids to this. That bad? All I was thinking is there are parents across America who are caving this week because their kids are writing them saying, oh, it's a Batman movie, oh, it's a comic book movie. It's fine.

How bad could a comic book movie be? Don't cave. Don't listen to them. You'll thank me later. It's very dark.

Sound advice. It is the most dark comic book movie I've ever seen. If you thought The Dark Knight was dark... Is that a Joker laugh?

Okay, on three, I want us all to do our best Joker maniacal laugh that we could come up with. Okay? One. Simultaneously? Yes. Two.

Three. Speaking of things that we can laugh at. What is it? Mr. Hankey? I was trying to get a little...

I was trying to get some harmony going on in there. Speaking of things that we can laugh at, Shaq and Dame lowered are at it again. I haven't heard the most recent Dame lowered rap, but the way it went was Dame lowered was asked who he thought was a better rapper, himself or Shaq.

So of course he said himself. It's kind of like a ridiculous question we ask players. You can ask any NBA player, hey, are you better than LeBron? And they'll say, yeah, I'm better than LeBron because you're asking a player if they're better. I'm trying to say, yeah, Shaq's better than me, even though I rap all the time and I claim to be a very good rapper.

Anyway, putting that aside. After that comment, Shaq put out a rap about Dame. Dame responded in kind. I thought Dame crushed Shaq. I did. I didn't think it was close, but then Shaq felt the need to respond and his first one sounded like it was recorded in his bathroom.

We'll see if it got any better. Okay, before we completely react to what we just heard, let's hear the rebuttal. Let's hear the rebuttal, even though we just heard a few seconds of it. Here's Dame Loehrer. Once again, I think Dame Lillard.

He proved what he said to whatever interviewer. Dame Lillard was asked, who's a better rapper, him or Shaq? And I think over the span of two raps, Dame's raps don't sound like they're in a bathroom. And I actually would listen to Damian Lillard's song, Shaq's just sounds goofy. It does.

It sounds goofy and dated. Dame Lillard, no question, he's crushing Shaq here. If the question is who's a better rapper after hearing the second one, because he switched his flow, because remember, I was coming on, I was getting on him about doing that flow. Shaq did not. Well, I mean, that's Shaq's flow, but Dame actually switched up his flow on the second one. So if it's about the best rapper between the two, I'd give the Dame off of these. However, if it's about who's getting that who in this rap beef, it's Shaq, not Dame. Who thinks that Shaq has less ammunition to work with than Dame?

There's plenty of stuff. There aren't a lot of things that Dame Lillard can say. Like if you're going at one of the most popular players ever in the game, you did it. He didn't ask for this. He was asked who a better rapper is. He said him and he proved that he's the better rapper. Nobody asked to get included into a rap beef, you get brought in it.

Like someone calls you out. It's not like, I wish somebody would put me in a rap beef. Dame Lillard likely loves Shaq. That's what's killing him in this.

He's not killing him. He's proving that his songs are better. He's better at rapping than Shaq is. He proved it. He's not dissing him at all.

Like the two songs Dame has put out, I haven't heard anything. I don't think he's trying to. That's why he's losing it to me. But I don't think he's losing. I think he's winning because of quality. Another thing too, Shaq is winning because Shaq is using beats that everybody knows. Like Shaq is using, that was victory.

Notorious B.I.G. What did we first do when it came on? We started bobbing our heads. I did not.

You automatically just like, oh. I did not bop my head. I was listening to it and thought it was goofy. What do you mean I was bobbing my head? Me and Aaron are in here listening to it and as soon as victory hit, we start bobbing our heads.

It makes you listen to them more. I'm glad, but Dame Lillard's more original. Dame Lillard can do multiple flows.

Dame Lillard doesn't sound like he's rapping in a bathroom. It's by far Dame Lillard over Shaquille O'Neal. I don't think it's by far. It's a landslide. Dame Lillard over Shaquille O'Neal. It's not even close. You are listening to WSGS Winston-Salem, WCOG Greensboro, WPCM Burlington, WMFR High Point. All those signals making up Sports Hub Triad.