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August 26, 2021 8:00 pm
With all the transformative events taking place—COVID and injection mandates, government and big business authoritarianism, the fall of Afghanistan to radical Islamists, the death of 13 US Marines by suicide bombers, the utter ineptness and godlessness of the Biden Administration—one might consider a topic on missions and church planting to be slightly irrelevant.
It seems clear that the world is not going to be saved in its headlong rush to the End Times…but individual souls can be. So what Christians should be focused on right now, even more than current events, is obeying the parting words of Christ, the Great Commission:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:19-20).
This is an imperative—a command—from the Son of God. This isn’t a suggestion or optional if “conditions on the ground” make it seem of lesser importance than “really big geo-political issues”. In fact, what could be more important in these latter days than working diligently to evangelize and disciple—whether you are a missionary or not—and plant churches in a biblically sound manner?
But that’s the caveat—“biblical sound” missions and church planting.
Our guests this weekend on The Christian Worldview are Stephen Lonetti, missionary, church planter, and pastor of Beacon of Hope Church in St. Paul, MN and Martin Marten, church planter and pastor in Switzerland.
They will exhort the call for missions and church planting at this time, especially in light of the unbiblical “Church Planting Movement” and “Disciple Making Movement” which are so pervasive today.
>> Beacon of Hope Church in St. Paul is hosting the upcoming 2021 LifeGate Worldwide Conference Sept. 23-25, where pastors and church planters from the Middle East, Europe and North America will speak on missions and church planting. You can register at LifeGateWorldwide.org
What's the biblical model for missions in church planting. That is a topic we'll discuss today. Right here on the Christian worldview radio program for the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David. We host and our website is the Christian worldview.org special thank you to our very supportive listener base and also our national sponsor Samaritan ministries.
They offer a biblical solution to healthcare now with all the transformative events taking place right now. Covert, 19, and injection mandates are becoming all the rage, government and big business teaming up together in this authoritarianism partnership, the fall of Afghanistan to radical Islamists. The very tragic deaths of 13 US Marines by suicide bombers. Just the other day. The other ineptness and godlessness of this current Biden administration.
One might consider a topic on missions and church planting to be slightly irrelevant.
It seems clear that the world is not going to be saved in its headlong rush to the end times, but individual souls can be so what Christian should be focused on right now even more than current events. As important as they are is obeying the parting words of Christ, the great commission, where he said.
Matthew 28. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, all read that passage in full just coming up in a second.
This is an imperative command from the son of God. This is a suggestion or optional" conditions on the ground make it seem of lesser importance." Really big geopolitical issues.
In fact, what could be more important in these latter days than working diligently to evangelize and disciple others.
Whether you are missionary or not and planting churches in a biblically sound manner, but that's the caveat biblically sound missions in church planning our guest today on the Christian worldview are Stephen Leonetti missionary church planter and pastor of beacon of hope church in St. Paul, Minnesota, and also Martin Manton church planter and pastor in Switzerland. They will exhort the call for missions and church planning at this time, especially in light of the un-biblical was called the church planting movement or the disciple making movement you're going to find out about those today which are so prevalent and on biblical and just as an aside, beacon of hope church in St. Paul is hosting the upcoming 20, 21, life gate, worldwide conference on September 23-25 were pastors and church planters from the Middle East, Europe and North America will speak on missions in church planning and you can find out more about that and firstname.lastname@example.org.
Let's get straight to the interview with Stephen Lynette. He and Martin Manton. Thank you both for coming on the program today. Steve, I want to start with you by reading a passage of Scripture. These are the last words of Christ recorded in the Gospel of Matthew in Matthew chapter 28 is known as the great commission and Jesus came up and spoke to them. There were these disciples that met him in the region of Galilee saying here's a Christ said all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.
And low I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Again, I was the last words of Christ recorded in the gospel of of Matthew. Now this make a point that this wasn't a suggestion.
This was an imperative.
A command to go and make disciples and baptize them and teach them all that I commanded you, Steve a start off with with this question. Why is this important to to discuss today on this program. First, I think, in the present context and world affairs as they are. They brought about a lot of confusion and fear and apprehension to so many people due to the so-called world pandemic others a distinct temptation, I think, for God's people to pull into themselves and to protect themselves and their families from whatever this is that were experiencing to the but we need to realize that Jesus great commission which you just read is not been rescinded, and his passion for the nations is not been abated, our usefulness in his hands to continue to be engaged with him and it has an end. We hear a lot about mandates today. Don't we.
Well, we still have his mandate and we need to be faithful to fulfill it as best as we can.
One more question for you Steve you you had an extensive missionary background tell us about what that experience was like for you and your wife married and how that led to where you pastor now beacon of hope church.
I was saved off the streets of St. Paul at 19 years old and I really didn't know very much about anything.
Biblically I was raised Catholic but I ended up in the Bible school that was run by new Tribes Mission a few years after going to Bible school. There Mary and I found ourselves on the island of Borneo in the Indonesia learning Bahasa Indonesia the ink of the language of Indonesia. Shortly thereafter, we found ourselves in a remote island. It was peopled by a group called the Tully Apple. They were monolingual. Nobody else spoke the language but them for the next four years we studied their language and culture preparing to bring the gospel to them at that time. When we finally had some proficiency in the language we began to teach from Genesis all the way through to the life of Christ. Basically giving background because they had no idea who the God of the Bible was. We then preach the gospel after six months of preparatory teaching other was great. Turning to the Lord muscles people well over 400 people came to Christ at that time and I got to see firsthand what biblical church planting is all about.
Because we just use the simple principles from acts and throughout Paul's 13 epistles implanting that church and we saw God do wonderful things. Their present day. There's church well over 400 that implanted over seven other churches and since 1995. The church is basically been without missionaries on site and so that put something in my heart that has never left an absolute love for Christ church and for church planting.
When I came back to Minnesota. Some folks applied to me and asked me what I be willing to consider planting a church in St. Paul and that's how beacon of hope that planet we started from scratch with three families. About 11 years ago and were presently a very healthy church operating on the side of St. Paul. I would say goes back to that beautiful experience with the Tully Apple and God showing us what he can do through his word, Steve Veneti and Martin Manton joining us today here on the Christian worldview radio program were talking about the importance of missions and Martin briefly introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us your back on your face. Dorian and what it's like having a a biblical church in the midst of secular Europe and in just what the responses from from that area.
Yes, as you mentioned, I was born and raised in Switzerland.
Growing up in the land of the reformers singly yet never encountered the gospel until the age of 18. By that time I was a long-haired hippie in the matter.
Long-haired hippie friend. I met him really had no intention of getting saved that evening.
Actually, a lot of things on my mind but he got saved a few months before and this is the first time somebody exposed me to the gospel and believe it or not we said there for seven hours and by God's grace I got saved that very evening. Each of 18 right off the streets I got involved in church things are going well but unfortunately there was some theological issues that send on the spiritual detour age 20 to 25.
Nothing glorious happened in those five years, and it's only by the grace of God that he brought me back in kind and gave me a second chance, age 25, getting my things in line getting biblically sound teaching that I married H 29 and now I'm a dad, a father of six children by the age of 33.
I left my regular job here in Switzerland and we moved to Berlin where I became part of the EPC it's Bible training Center just went there to help the guys that was my job description just help them and from there, God did amazing things that I never had planned. Never had it on my map. I started working as a translator you hear John MacArthur preach in German. That's my voice I've had in his translator predominantly was there when Steve started his church plant in St. Paul. I remember it vividly the need of planting healthy biblical church is growing us the whole group there in Berlin and through training and talking to Steve. I became the first first church planter out of that group and planted a church here in Switzerland. Out in the country were a small community of about 5000 people started six years ago and it's just been an amazing journey. Just like Steve.
We started with three families from scratch out in the sticks to know if you're going to be three families for three weeks three months three years.
By God's grace, said church group. Now we hear about 80 adults on a Sunday, 50 children, even though according to all the newest and truest church planting methods were doing everything wrong, but I think you're always on the safe side. If you follow Jesus and his word in this Bible and that's what were doing so we are very happy and blessed to have this church here in Switzerland in the heart of Europe and it's just pure joy to be involved in church planting was a listen to both of you is just it. It's amazing how God works in totally different circumstances into different lives but the one similarity is bringing you both to saving faith in Christ and giving you a heart to shepherd God's people through planting churches and all believers should have this again to go back to the great commission go this is the only way people are going to hear the gospel and be able to be saved is when we go when we tell them through missions and also planting of churches sound biblical church is now there is a caveat blend both of you mentioned this in an in your answers.
There is that missions in church planting is an all created equal. There is a lot of wide spectrum of methodologies and so forth used lots of different mission agencies.
I just want to read life gate. This is ST this is the organization you founded for missions in church planting. Having a conference coming up. Were you going to be featuring a number of speakers from around the world not only Martin from Switzerland, but Christian Andreason, who pastors and church plants in Berlin you're having with the, the pastor of the literally the only church in the Gaza Strip on a Mossad is going to be speaking at the conference as well as bread user life gate again a omissions in church planning, organization, the vision is that is devoted to the effective advance of the gospel of Christ by equipping and mold mobilizing biblically qualified pastors supplant strong local churches in their own countries you partner with pastors at home and abroad to plant theologically sound self-supporting churches and then providing supplemental theological training to church planting pastors to ensure biblically sound theology and methodology, not the words I'm hearing over and over throughout that that description of what life gate is is biblically sound, theologically sound biblically qualified pastors. What makes life gate.
This missions in church planting organization different than the mainstream of these can organizations today, the way that God led me to plant the church and Tully Apple was through training of New Testament church principles directly from the New Testament, and there are so many other methodologies that are out there now being used and seeker friendly church is emergent church is and you know the church planting movements and the disciple making movements that are out there now. I think most other methodologies and I would make that distinction from what we do, which is basically biblical ministry. We just take it right straight from the word of God, and I often say you know there's nothing super special about what were doing here, but I'm sure that a lot of the. The really motivated, energetic methodologies that are out there would just kind of laugh at us and cause fuddy-duddy do comparison because I think he brought the church planting movement or disciple making movement. Those are actually kind of like registered trademarks think that a particular methodology to just do a little compare and contrast between what life gate does and what's very typical now in this church planting movement or disciple making movement. They have acronym CPM or DMM.
Compare those with those other movements that you just mentioned.
I think there nothing short of the demise of biblical missions.
To be honest with you. Those movements date they really emphasize speed and rapidity of they wanted to multiply rapidly so consequently they have to water things down.
They have a different gospel. They promote unconverted people to live in obedience to the word of God. If you can believe this, and as they live in this way they will experience a gradual conversion so they teach them to obey principles from the work of God without them ever even being converted and that's just not what the Bible teaches about conversion of the soul, not even close.
They have a different definition of the church encourage the development of communities that are followers of Christ. Now listen to this.
Okay, that is, they teach them to be obedient to the word of God as Christ followers not the way you think of it, but just following after Christ and often without understanding the gospel or even being converted, and if you think that I'm I'm just really putting up a straw horse. Let me quote from a book written by some of these guys and they say this you begin to see the DNA of healthy churches in the lives of the people who have not yet even come to an understanding of their need for salvation while of the book is the kingdom unleashed and it's by Jerry Charles Dale and Glenn sunshine.
It's a very very popular book in his movements and everybody in that moment would know about that speed has never been God's way and never took millennia to write the Bible when God wants to make it all takes 100 years when he wants to make a squash takes six months. There's a lot of squash is being produced. The Christian worldview. David returns in just a moment at Samaritan ministries.
Our members are passionate about being part of a Christian community that shares one another's medical means without the use of insurance for Samaritan members Tony and Ginger Malik that passion to share health with others of life was my wife's dream come back to the farm wanted to be able to do is daintily raising vegetables and behold where the food comes from the Latin try to provide healthy as possible for our neighbors and friends and handing the people able to catch in their lives and ministries is a perfect fit for us like we can actually partner with other Christian and other people to help them provide for their medical Tony and Ginger Malik and we are Samaritan Ministry member for more information, visit email@example.com/W David Wheaton here to tell you about a special offer on my boy Ben then was a yellow lab and inseparable companion back when I was competing in the Pro tennis tour.
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It is 264 pages, hardcover, and retails for 1899+ shipping for a limited time we are offering it for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview go to the Christian worldview.org or call 1888 646-2233. That's the Christian worldview.org welcome back to the Christian worldview. Be sure to visit our website the Christian worldview.org we can subscribe to a free weekly email an annual print newsletter on the resources for adults and children and support the ministry. Now back to today's program with host David Wheaton how widespread is that methodology this church planting movement disciple making movement methodology. How popular is that it is these evangelical churches that that do this is it is a prominent methodology today for missions. Steve it's very prominent and I think with the dumbing down and lack of teaching sound doctrine in the churches. The ventricle churches of the United States what you're getting now as missionaries in mission organizations that are watered down, and not promoting sound biblical doctrine. So yes, it's very widespread and very acceptable. A lot of churches that we would call quote evangelical" Steve Leonetti, and Martin men with us today on the Christian really talking about the importance of missions and church planting that church planting emissions. The that the types of methodologies being used are certainly not all created equal, and certainly not all biblical Martin what is your perception of what Steve just talked about your year in Switzerland. Certainly you've seen over your lifetime.
Missionaries come over therefrom all different kinds of churches from different mission sending agencies, parachurch agencies, you've seen these different methodologies give us that European is a Swiss perspective on what the United States evangelical church is sending over to Europe.
There are also sending some good guys okay and we were very thankful about that but I agree with Steve that a lot of that's being imported from satellites from business kind of thinking where you gotta make profit, so to speak rapidly. So you see a lot of actually missions agency as missionaries come over here stir up a lot of dust then they're gone. Actually, that average lifespan of a foreign missionary in Europe is 3 to 5 years than there fed up. Maybe it didn't work or you worked for a moment, but it was not lasting there frustrated and they go back, so unfortunately we see that quite often and they leave a lot of damage a lot of dissolution people I I can imagine a lot of churches that don't exit don't survive Martin Manton and Steve Leonetti with us today on the Christian worldview, a Steve talk about first century time of Christ, after he left the earth.
How did they do missions and plant churches will what is the biblical basis for it. I think it's obvious that when we veer away from biblical principles were to go sideways.
Biblically speaking, we don't find many of the causes that missionaries have taken up today and that are popular like we mentioned in the Bible. And it's not dissimilar to the church here at home when when missions becomes focused on social issues and political engagements and things like that. There'd headed in the wrong direction or when they emphasized this. The rapidity of getting work done there in the wrong direction, agricultural projects, water projects, all those things are are worthy endeavors, but they should be identified as missions, at least not from a biblical perspective. Missions biblically.
It involves evangelism, preaching the gospel that men are sinners and helpless to save themselves under the wrath of God but God is merciful and loving and sent his son Christ to die in their place, taking the punishment for their sin as her substitute on the cross. Then he rose from the dead three days later and and whoever believes and that will become saved and that's the gospel and and that is what were to be about preaching that news to people that's missions biblically speaking, and I realize that that's that's narrow but the word of God is narrow in many places as well, and we can't abandon it just because we want to get things done quicker or in a more quote unquote efficient way the rest of the involvements that were just mentioned are promoted by missions and or something else.
Sadly in hundreds of millions of dollars go to that kind of work, and that that's a tragedy. Steve Leonetti you're listening to today on the Christian worldview. The senior pastor of beacon of hope church in St. Paul Minnesota are other guest is Martin Manton. He is the founder of a church plant in turbine fell Switzerland called hope and light churches.
It's a beacon of light and over in secular Europe which America is becoming much more like with every passing year. Steve, you mentioned there about that the finances behind emissions and church planting annually anyone listening today who goes to church. There's always a missions budget. There is a missions department.
Sometimes in the church are missions pastor people in the church go on short-term missions trips.
They support missionaries around the world church planting and so forth. Millions and millions and millions of dollars go into this and I think most people in the church. Just assume no. Things are are proceeding well on their monies going and being well spent. One of the that the key distinctives of life gate I think is very unusual. I only give ever heard this before, and that there is a maintaining a high standard of theological and fiscal accountability for every pastor supported by life gate you keep financial support proportionate to the local economy. Okay so American dollars are usually worth a lot more.
And some the places are going you support pastors for a short period of time. 4 to 6 years and you did that. This is to church on you decrease the level of support each year to dissuade the pastors from an unhealthy dependence on North American finances and to encourage each church to become self-supporting. That really is amazing. You need to be self-supporting. This needs to be growing because you're not forever going to be on a dependency type relationship with a trip to North America.
Talk about why that's so important. Steve to have that kind of fiscal responsibility for life gate and for missions with David.
I find it amazing that that's amazing because to me that's just missions 101 in digitization when we worked with the Tolley Alba we work to the end where we would be able to leave the church I wouldn't want to stay there the rest of our lives and as you see Paul's model of acts he would plant the church are evangelized. Gather the people together in a church planting Eckley Sia and then he would teach them and teach them and teach them establish elders, ordain them in any going on to the next church self-support is so important because each church is autonomous. They have their own responsibility to their own leaders being dependent upon North American resources, or a group of, say, a mission organization or what ever there's nobody guarantees it North America will remain standing, and certainly no guarantee that certain mission organizations will remain standing.
What happens if a church is completely dependent or of church planters completely dependent on those outside resources when they dry out the church dries up and Martin talk about the, the, another distinctives of how life gate worldwide approaches missions from a biblical standpoint is that the aim is to have local or national or indigenous, so to speak, pastors and church planters you have someone who's in Europe instead of having you know an American come over there and you lead a church in Switzerland or another part of the world, Africa, Asia, wherever else what you see is the benefit of someone who's a local who speaks the language, who knows the community rather than trying to train in an American to come over to a place or a language that person doesn't speak into a culture that that anger open become proficient in a language to the point where you can teach and preach takes quite some time.
If you take a local he knows the language he knows how to communicate. He knows how to interact. He's integrated into culture is integrated in the community where he lives. He likes the food they serve in our food is a good thing and there's a lot of fellowship happening around food when it comes to finances. He knows how to get through. He knows where to shop.
He knows his way around local beam supported. It usually costs much less, than someone who is being sent over. David let me cut in here just quick. Martin okay I can support 30 Filipino church planters for the cost of one North American death that shopping isn't it. It is excellent, that's true.
Another thing to you as if you support a local is most likely here to stay. You know he's not gonna is he's not going to say on can't do this. I can't do that, or I don't like this and you know is on the scene. Also a local doesn't do furlough not saying furlough is all bad in itself, but let me tell you I found that quite often locals are irritated when the guy takes off every so often some of them every two years for three months or six months because quite honestly no one here can afford to leave his job in trust go someplace and do well.
Let's hope he does something reasonable. It's just not a good thing you're disconnected you lose touch with the people your language skills won't improve while you're on furlough, and quite often this kind of life is perceived as a luxury life.
No one lives in the country where where I met for example.
So I think there's some good reasons to support a local guy and especially you know he can do what guy can do that comes in from the outside vendor's pioneering missions where you go where there's nothing but Europe is not a place where the gospel is not excessive cell. I totally rooted and I'm very thankful for the approach of life gate cakes in that missions and church planting. Stephen Martin, one of the reasons we want to have you on today is to focus on a topic that we often don't. To be honest, don't discuss that often on the Christian worldview missions and church planting and how did how to do that a biblical Laban going back to the very first moments of the interview talking about the great commission. This is something that we should be focusing and thinking about and doing going as it says in so Steve another aspect we wanted to do feature today was the fact that you have this this conference coming up and suffer surfer pastors and church leaders who are listening today or or anyone anyone who has that love for missions. This is a conference that I think you be interested in either attending. If you are can get to the Twin Cities.
Or perhaps you have other ways for people to get the content of the. The conference did you can tell us about that. But as the 2021 life gate conferences, the organization Steve you founded. Of course, Martin was a beneficiary of that the other speakers who are coming Christian Andreason who is the church planted in Berlin was a beneficiary of life gate Hannah Mossad. He is like to be very interesting to hear from him was like to have a church in the only church the only Christian church in the Gaza Strip. One of the toughest neighborhoods Eve to put it lightly in the world coming to this conference. It's on September 23-25, right at your church.
Steve beacon of hope in St. Paul this tell us briefly about the conference who you'd like to attend how people who can't attend can be impacted or can cannot obtain the information is presented so maybe they can bring it back to their own church that may be involved in this church planting movement or disciple may be movement that's that's not it, that the methodology is not a biblical one had to be pursuing missions with other own church can be impacted by the biblical principles from the book of acts that you that you implement into life gate. This is not conference for just church planters or pastors or missions. Leaders is a is a conference for believers and we are deeply concerned with the way things are going in the world that we want to encourage people to strengthen what remains and believe me, we have been doing mission work for over 150 years and many of the nations that life gate works and and there are qualified men. There nationals or locals.
As Martin said I like that term locals that I've heard one man in Brazil told me this David is, he said Steve we don't need any more fathers over us. We need brothers that will literally come alongside us and work shoulder to shoulder with us. So were passionate about helping people to understand how they can do that and how they can be involved in fulfilling the great commission.
That way, we do have an enemy that thinks globally and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. Are we thinking globally as as local churches do we think globally we want to help people to understand that we can allow the blessings that God has poured out on us in North America.
Our freedoms in all of our wealth and the peace that we enjoy to rob us from the needs of the nations because they're still there. My day encourage you to watch what's happening in Afghanistan right now as a church and people of God. We must leverage all these marvelous blessings for his glory and do everything within our power to ensure the gospel goes out into all the nation so that others may glorify God and enjoy him forever. We trust God will use this conference to awaken his people to the exceedingly rich and wonderful opportunity of being engaged in something larger than ourselves, only one life to live and will soon be passed only what's done for Christ is going to last. I believe that with all my heart and I want to pass that message on to who's ever listening come to the conference.
You can register at life gate world.org or you can check out the firstname.lastname@example.org. We will probably have the sessions available online for you to look at their but right now we have just registration.
It's very inexpensive for two half-day conference so I just encourage everyone pastors mission workers mission pastors. Whoever can come on and join us work and have a great time. The speakers that we have ever referred to them as dusty warriors working in some of the toughest neighborhoods in the world. So you not going to get ivory tower type presentations. You can have very practical, down-to-earth presentations by men that are underground in the fantastic conference on the website is life gate will lie.org to find out more Christian worldview returns in just a moment.
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Now back to today's program with host David Wheaton you mentioned Afghanistan. Steve and Neil. We hear reports now that over the last 20 years, the US being there.
Of course it's been the debacle. The way the hold exit was in before dying to tell abandonment take over but there was there's there's been a stronger missionary presence from what we hear in Afghanistan these last 20 years when there was a little bit more freedom.
They are now. These missionaries these Christians who are there going to be likely facing severe persecution, if not death. There are reports of that already coming out of Afghanistan tell us what that is like for these these missionaries who go in one of your speakers at the conference. I'm sure pastors in the Gaza Strip think another one of yours speakers is also in some very dicey areas where there is a severe cost of proclaiming the gospel. What is that like Martin and David that is hard question to answer because honestly we who live in the Western world.
What we call persecution people in Afghanistan will probably laugh at that. I think the winds will get harsher in the years to come.
And we all have our theological convictions of what we should do. But honestly I pray to God that he will give us grace that will stand fast that we won't just for our own benefit. EWeek on the gospel. I go into hiding. I can only pray for those brothers who are in this situation and pray for the church and actually I spent a lot of time thinking how to prepare our church, our community for most likely hard times to come times that we cannot imagine.
And as I said, may God give us grace that we stand fast when they do come Steve, your thoughts. We are heading towards persecution. The United States and in the Western world is Martin said, but I've been in places that are very dangerous and persecuted. I remember in Indonesia the turning were the radical Islamicists began to do programs in the very city that we worked out of and they they know where the Christians lived. They know where that churches are and they mark those out and those are the first that they had and we need to be praying for our friends and fellow believers that are still in Afghanistan as Westerners that didn't get on the planes out because they are in for a terrible terrible experience and we need to pray for their strength. It would be good to read Fox's book of martyrs and remind yourself that this is not the end. This life is not the end.
And we have a glorious future that we look forward to bit it's not time to worry about our 401(k)s. If it's time to really really stretch ourselves out on God and serve him. Will he appreciate both of you taking the time to come on the Christian Realty radio program today to talk about a biblical approach to missions in church planting in this upcoming life gate world like conference here in the Twin Cities in St. Paul.
Thank you for both of your perspectives and for standing strong for the gospel and for biblical truth and in the various areas were God is put both of you. We just wish all of God's best in grace to both you Steven and Martin and your families. Thank you again David.
And as you say, think biblically live accordingly I'd like to add to that minister.
Accordingly, and not with your own methodologies will help that interview with Steven and Martin really inspired you to answer the call to pray for opportunities to share the gospel with others to disciple others who are younger in their faith in you, because it's really nothing more important than that, aside from your own personal growth and sanctification. So just like to mention one more time.
The upcoming 2021 life gate world conference on September 23 to the 25th. It's being held here in the Twin Cities at beacon of hope church in St. Paul, but they're going to have pastors and church planters from around the world, the Middle East, Europe and North America who gonna speak on the topic we discussed today. Mom missions and church planting can find out more and email@example.com. I also hope the interview today informed you about this church planting movement or this disciple making movement. It's something ironically enough that I had spoken with an earlier gas from a couple months ago.
You may remember Pastor Matt Fletcher from Webster Bible church outside Rochester New York. While there is a short portion of the interview with him that we didn't have time to air and interestingly enough, it was about missions and he talked about this church planting movement. This disciple making movement. So I just want to play that short segment with him as we come near the end of the program today so here is an on-air portion of the interview with Pastor Matt Fletcher.
Let's move over into another role and responsibility of the local church is not just about those from the community. The local church is also missions the great commission.
After all is said and make disciples across the world that I know you have a significant commitment to missions at your church, Webster Bible church and we won't get too much into this today. I think this bears a full topic on missions, but we've talked about this during your time in Minnesota just in conversation. Just about the way missions has changed and that the methodology of missions and you talked about the church planting movement or the disciple making movement that really I think two phrases for the same things the church planting movement CPM or disciple making movement DMM which is this I think you described as an obedience based discipleship. So just tell us, given us an overview of that that methodology for those missions movements and and how that compares do you think to what the Bible prescribes for missions. Good question and I think this is an area that has gone in many ways undetected and therefore unaddressed by pastors and churches, and David all confess that that even I was up until several months ago was somewhat ignorant of some of the methodological changes that have been occurring over the last decade or two.
I'm very thankful for the missionaries that partner with us, but in the larger missions movement organizations there is a methodology that seems to be increasingly unscriptural in your life. Another whole program or more to be fully devoted to this up and I'll just say you know the church planting movement disciple making move money does sound like very positive things right on me that with it wasn't that New Testament fulfill the great commission. My uncle began. Missions organization several decades ago to the unreached peoples of the world and she would use the expression church planting movement, but what it meant in that day and what it is come to me in the last couple of decades, no capital, CPM church planting movement. It is very different without getting too much into it. There was a book written about a 20 years ago called church planting movement diet by David Garrison that in the idea had to do with planting churches with rapidity, you know, it was all about speed making disciples rapidly and then moving on to another people group and what I can appreciate about his desire as revealed in his book on not read. I've read only excerpts of it but the idea is that there there is an emphasis on prayer and trusting the word of God in the spirit of God to work in people's hearts.
All that is a good thing. But the idea is they have minimized the role of the preacher. The teacher coming to proclaim the gospel disobedience based discipleship is is basically were.
They find a person they were called, a person of peace, which is a misunderstanding of Luke 10, a person of peace is someone who believes the gospel and God's peace will rest upon that piece is pronounced upon them, but they would say it as an unbeliever who was open to the gospel and then you give them let's say God's word.
But at that point you are very much in the background so this unbeliever gathers his family and friends, and you don't teach them the word of God. They just kind of they had these discovery Bible studies were they just open the word of God and you tell them basically just to obey whatever they read in the idea is is that they become disciples. Over time, and at some point it leads to conversion and want to lease to conversion. You have a few of them.
You now have a "a church and now a church is been planted in you can move on to another people group self. There's this passion to complete the great commission to reach the unreached. But it's all about speed and so there's not a dedication to language learning living incarnational he over a period of years among the people investing in them developing leaders because you don't know the language, how do you know whether there really grasping the gospel.
How can an unbeliever understand the word of God and so their fiscal background wall that is played in the way they again we will have time today, but the way they try to explain it from the New Testament. I mean it's incredible proof texting that is taking place and it really contradicts what the Bible actually teaches about the manner in which will fulfill the great commission.
When Jesus said, make disciples.
He says to go right baptize them and teach them so so the teaching in the maturity comes after they come to faith and cry they get it backwards. There's like it's almost like they're discipled to conversion and that we do not see that in the ministry of Christ, we do not see that in the apostolic ministry cabal acts and the epistles. And so yeah it's definitely something worth checking into. Just as you are discussing. That reminded me of just of years ago I heard about things going on in the Middle East with with missions that there was the approach that you don't try to tell a Muslim that they have to become a Christian.
The guy will be a Muslim and be a Christian. However, however, that works that's impossible of Christ. But I think they were trying to do that because are such a cost yes to fruit to convert, so to speak, from being a Muslim to christening with your life. You can certainly understand that pain and that the difficulty for a Muslim to contemplate that but alas that's what were called to do when we got a saving faith is we must be willing to leave Albany. We must be willing even to die for our faith and that's of course easy for me to say here that in America where there's not that kind of threat of death, and so forth.
But anyway, good initial explanation of what this movement is the submissions movement is and will at some point, do a program on it and and find out more and look into what that the biblical New Testament call for missions is as much as possible. I want to collaborate with these big umbrella missions organization because they are filled with people that will really have a passion for reaching the unreached with the gospel of Christ and they feel that sense of urgency that the Lord to return anytime if these people be pierced, but let's take 15, 20, 25% of their methodological approach that is really doesn't have scriptural support can poison the whole thing we do need to point out where there is a dangerous methodology where the immediate result may be very impressive, and the statistics look great but 10 years down the road.
These churches are filled with heresy with syncretism rate and have departed from the faith.
Only Paul went back to strengthen all the churches that he had planted because he understood. We are prone to error and they really seem to miss that.
In my estimation, that's really well said to me you can see in the early church from Paul himself and his traveling companions would go and it wouldn't be long before false doctrines and teachings are coming to him involved and does overlook that right sale right is what is gathers a church there was gone somewhere else and he he was pained over false doctrines and false teaching. Missy know he knew were let it went to went to destroy people's lives and misrepresented God and Saul stayed when he could to make sure that is strong New Testament church was planted and well established with godly leaders. The only reason Paul ever moved on in virtually every case was because of persecution and that's why he went back to strengthen the church to know. He stayed when he couldn't even when he moved on and you at apostolic appointment as pastors like Timothy and Titus vague. What did Paul tell them secure the qualifications for an elder teach faithful men who will be able to teach others also help establish elders.
Were you planted churches in every city.
Paul was very clear how critical godly leadership is to the church and he went back and revisited that himself, so it needs to be a priority and it's a priority that is often lost because of the desire for speed just as we are talking earlier how there can be mission drift in a church.
Yes, the commission drift in the pasture, but there can be mission drift as well in missions. Ductal it is it's it's missions pragmatism so the pragmatism we see in the American evangelical church so often has as simply carried over into world missions.
That's really what is it's kind of overseeing the poisonous fruit of seats that were planted decades ago with the whole attraction will seeker driven model. This just carried over into the missions world again. That was Matt Fletcher, senior pastor of Webster Bible church in outside Rochester, New York, basically saying the same things that Stephen Leonetti and Martin Manton were saying earlier in the program about this church planting movement how un-biblical.
It is, and how based on the human reasoning methodologies that are so pervasive in the church today and frankly that's part of the mission of this program to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christian so I hope your worldview was sharpened today with regards to missions in church planting. It always goes back to Scripture to want to thank you for joining us today on the Christian worldview radio program you can hear past programs and connect with our firstname.lastname@example.org is lots of things for you to do there. One of the most visited pages on the website has to do with what must I do to be saved.
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