Fighting the Good Fight

Hey, everybody.

It's time for The Charlie Kirk Show. James Robison and Jay Richards join us about their new book, Fight the Good Fight. Two amazing men talk about how an alliance of faith and reason can win the culture war. So, fight the good fight. Check it out right now. It's a great book.

I think you're going to love this episode. Email me, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and become a member today, members.charlicirk.com. That is members.charlicirk.com. As always, you can get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com. And join our event in Detroit, Michigan. That's right, Detroit, Michigan at tpaction.com slash peoples.

That is tpaction.com slash peoples. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created. Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. It's where I buy all of my gold.

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You send a message. We play to win. Register now at tpaction.com slash peoples. We have some wonderful guests this hour. We have J.W. Richards, author, co-author of the important book, Fight the Good Fight, and my friend and amazing person, James Robinson. Welcome both James and Jay. James, I will hand you the baton. Introduce the book and this project to us.

Great to have you on, James. Well, we wrote a New York Times bestseller, I don't know, 12 years ago, called Indivisible, and it was a fight for freedom. And we decided to do a rewrite, you might say, of some of the concerns and the principles that have been totally abandoned, which are irreplaceable.

They have to be in place. And we realized we need to take a different direction and try to deal with what we're actually facing today, which is the greatest assault in my opinion on freedom in the history of our nation. And it's like right now we've got Stalin running the country, but he's rather than using a bullet, he's using the courts, justice, and everything else to try to destroy us. But he has to destroy us and control us.

And that's what he's working toward doing. So we tried to show people that there are principles that are confirmed by history, but they are very much biblical, they're God's will. And God's will can be done on his earth, and that's what he wants to happen. That's the kingdom impact he left us here to make. So I think the book, and I think Jay is just absolutely a gift from God, and I think Heritage and everybody recognizes that. But we've been brought together, me, a mainline evangelical Protestant for sure, and Jay a very Catholic. But both of us realized that we had room to grow, and we're both willing to grow, and we have grown together with a supernatural union, which God wants for the whole church. So Charlie, you are as great an inspiration, in my opinion, to the church and the nation, and to people that love freedom, who believe faith, famine, and freedom matters.

There is nobody making a better impact, especially on the younger people in our nation, but the whole nation. And we love you, Charlie, we're glad to be with you. Thank you, James, you've been a wonderful supporter and friend. Jay, welcome to the program. Jay is with Heritage and also the co-author of this very important book. Jay, tell us about your approach here and the importance of this book, especially in this election year.

Absolutely. As James said, we did a book in 2012 together, but in some ways that was still conventional left-right politics. I mean, we're talking Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, we're still debating natural marriage versus same-sex marriage. And James and I thought, well, we could reissue Indivisible, but we're looking around, we're in a different world now. I mean, there's this thing that we call woke ideology just because we don't have a word for it, but it's essentially a cultural wrecking ball that manifests itself in all of our institutions and in the academy.

You spent a lot of time on this, but this is a different moment, but it's also a kind of hopeful moment, and that's the subtitle of the book on how an alliance of faith and reason can win the culture war. Because a lot of conservatives like us, social conservatives, we tend to think, okay, the only people we can really lie with are just people like us. But Charlie, in the last three years I've been fighting gender ideologies.

You have. What I found is there is a completely new group of people. There's all the regular social conservatives, there's Trump conservatives that were brought into the Republican Party maybe in 2016, but they're atheist evolutionary biologists. There are suburban moms who didn't have any sort of political bone in their bodies.

There are people that identify as lesbian that hate gender ideology. It's a completely different world, and so what we're going to do is write a book that both gave conservative Christians and social conservatives a way to understand theologically all the important issues, but also the basic arguments that we think you need to make in persuading these new potential allies that we have. Because, look, we live in a republic, and so it can't just be sort of the 20 percent of conservative Christians that agree with each other. We've got to find a way to conjugate and to build a new governing coalition.

That's what we're hoping to do. Very important topic and point here, and either one of you, I could go to you first, Jay. So talk about that broadening coalition, and I am criticized at times for embracing that people that might not have the biblical worldview that we do want to fight for liberty. Pastors tell me, you've got to stop doing that. You should never align with people that are not Christians in the fight for liberty. For example, should we, Jay, work with homosexuals against the grooming type issue?

Should we work with Muslims if they want to take over school boards? What is your answer to that, Jay? I mean, the short answer is yes, but of course your pastor friend that warns you is right. So if I say, okay, I'm going to work with gays against groomers fighting gender ideology because they're following the light that they have. So I'm going to agree with them on that.

That doesn't mean I'm not reserving a time later in which I want to have a longer conversation about the nature of marriage and natural law and all those kinds of things. Same thing with aligning with an atheist who believes in freedom and limited government. We need to be building friendships with these people that they may be 20 percent are friends, but in many cases they're 70 percent are friends. The problem is that conservatives, our instinct is usually to fight people that are closest to us.

Freud called it the narcissism of small differences. My view is what you should do is say, okay, what does the left want us doing? What the left wants to have happen is Protestants and classical liberals and Catholics all to fight amongst ourselves, right?

We need to say, okay, what do they want us to do and then do the opposite if we actually want to win. James, do you have a thought on that? Let me just say that I think one of the things we have to realize when we're talking about cooperation, we're not going to see the kind of healthy, spiritual, God-led cooperation until the church, the family of God, the family of the perfect father and the body of the perfect person, Christ, begin to look like him and the family comes together. The family of the perfect father needs to learn to love one another.

Jay and I are a tremendous example of that happening. We don't compromise one point of view and we believe God is correcting all of us and we all need to be corrected. We need to be yielded clay in the hands of the master potter who will shape us all into a vessel of honor.

A vessel of honor is a vessel through which God flows his word, his will, his love and his transforming truth in unconditional love. That's what he's looking for and he's looking for a family where we come together with our unique design and our divine purpose and our kingdom purpose and we begin to live to see God's will done on his earth. His will can be done on his earth and it is his family that will show the way of supernatural cooperation and unity even if you may have a different theological point of view. The people who had memorized the Bible were the chief crucifiers of Jesus. So you can take God's word and use it against God. We have to be very careful. We have to all remain yielded clay and teachable. That's what we're trying to inspire the church to do, to look like the father, the body of Christ to look like him. That is the kingdom impact on planet earth we were left here to make. And if everybody will realize, you've got to put certain unshakable, irrefutable principles in place for anything to win, starting with marriage all the way through everything that happens on this earth. Those principles have been cast aside.

They have not only been mocked and ridiculed, they have been removed and we've got to put them back. And we have to do that by getting the right leaders who understand the importance of the imperative principles that are catastrophic if you deny them, blessed if you keep them. And that's what we're trying to do in the book, Fight the Good Fight. And it takes the family of God to fight that fight. That's what the disciples were left here to do. They weren't left here to get out of here.

They were left here to get him in and the fullness of his power in his family so the whole world could see him as he is. And we'll be following the principles that we discussed very clearly, but at about a seventh grade reading or whatever because we want everybody to be able to read. It's a simple read, powerful, undeniable principles, and I think Jay did a fabulous job of fleshing them out in a way that very few people could hear it. It is Fight the Good Fight, how an alliance of faith and reason can win the culture war. Jay, can you just tease our audience, what does a victory in the culture war look like? What a victory in the culture war looks like is that people that recognize biological sex applies to human beings is a reality, and that's true both in our institutions but also in our public culture. It's a place in which people can exercise genuine religious freedom, the free exercise of religion, which isn't mere private belief.

It's also not a national establishment of religion, but it's a vibrant practice of Christianity and vibrant faith in the public square. Those are the kind of two things that I think will be major signs that we're moving in the right direction and have at least won some of the short-term battles. Here's the book right here, Fight the Good Fight.

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Dr. Ashley Lucas, great American, check it out, myphdweightloss.com. Fight the good fight is the book. So, James, I'm only going to ask some of these questions, not even from an oppositional advocate standpoint, but just because I receive these tough questions, and I think it's helpful for our audience to work through it. So, the other day, a pastor who's very well known, I was dialoguing with him on text, and he was all about America and what to happen, he said, Charlie, it's Deuteronomy 28. America's falling apart, Jesus is coming imminently, it's not going to be saved. James, how do you, and then I want to get to Jay, but James, how do you respond? Because that is, I hear from a lot of pastors, not that they say that we shouldn't fight, but it's just not worth it that God is done with America. What is your response, James? Well, that's absolutely ridiculous.

That's like wishing the owner of a sports team accept a few wins when they want the championship. Our father created this world, and he gave us oversight over everything that he created. We've done a very poor job overseeing. We have not cared for the flocks or the fields. We have given the fields up to the briars and all of the weeds, and we have given the flock to the wolves and the lions.

We can take it back. We are supposed to be effective overseers, and we do it as the family of the perfect father. He left us here praying this, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

That was not wishful thinking. That was the will of the father, and the king has come. The king is not only here, he is in us. He said he established his kingdom in us, and then after the resurrection, he said he put his kingdom in us in resurrection power. When he was about to ascend, the disciples were asking him if he was going to set up the next kingdom.

He said, Why are you talking about something that only one person knows? Do what I left you here to do. But tarry basically until you're in due with this power from on high, with the Holy Spirit, the living God, comes in you in power and puts the kingdom power in you with my will being done through you in supernatural power. That's what happened in the upper room. When they walked out of the upper room, those guys who didn't understand clearly kingdom, they came out demonstrating the kingdom, and the entire book of Acts touched everything on planet earth with godly oversight and godly impact, and the whole world was changed, and the greatest power force in history was brought down, and the word of God was able to go forth. Now that word is to go forth in a family that's committed to kingdom purpose.

They're praying thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Well the king has come, it's in us, his will can be done. The church needs to come together and realize that we can give godly oversight to God's planet. Heaven and earth is the Lord. We can do his will on his earth, and we can put his principles back in place.

That's what we get to do with freedom. We can actually put people who have wisdom controlling them and principles that are unshakable and irrefutable in place. That's what we've got to refer to, and he's coming back for a family that does that and a body that looks like him, and if you think he's coming before his will is done on his earth, you've got another thing coming. The kingdom of God shall be preached in all nations, all nations, and in the end.

The kingdom of God is not being demonstrated in many nations, even among the believers. That has to stop. So Jay and I are talking about the principles that are irrefutable. You have to have every area of life starting, let's say, with marriage.

Period. And that is what we've done very clearly and very simply, and I'm going to tell you something. We can get dressed up in Jesus very fast.

We can look like him very fast. We can show a defeated world what glory looks like and what the will of God looks like, and that's what we've been left here to do. I will settle for nothing less, neither will the Father. He didn't leave us here to get out of dodge. He left us here to get his will, his way, his mind, his wisdom in play in every life.

It's used as is. I agree, I just wish most pastors did. And we're going to talk about that throughout the hour, because a lot of pastor I deal with say, I believe God's will, God's will is to rapture us out as quick as possible when things get... So I think that's important to discuss, though, James.

And again, I'm an action guy, you know that. Jay, I want to just get... He did not leave us here, Charlie. He did not leave us here to get us out of here.

He left us here to get him in here in the fullness of his power and glory. That's what we must do. I'm with you. Jay... What if I told you that most of the notable diaper brands support abortion, even footing the bill for their employees to travel to have an abortion?

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Use promo code Charlie for 10% off your order today. You coming from a Catholic perspective to give Catholics great credit is that they have built institutions and they have built multigenerational places of impact, whether it be education. You look at how many Catholics are on the Supreme Court.

We Protestants could do a much better job of planning a tree that you'll never actually see come to its full fruit. So I want to talk about that after the break and just also dialogue with this because there is a fair amount, and they might be right to be clear, end times talk, and I would say that a majority of our audience right now is saying, what's the point? It's not falling apart. It's falling into place. And so I want to really talk about that and I also want you to address that from a Catholic perspective.

Absolutely. I mean, look, whatever kind of Christian you are, if you're Orthodox, if you're a Catholic or Evangelical, we all believe that Christ is going to come at some point and he's going to establish his kingdom in its fullness. We also believe, because Jesus said the kingdom of God is in us and is among us, that there's a sense in which the kingdom is already here when the church acts as it's supposed to act.

So when we give the poor a glass of water, that's the kingdom of God breaking into the here and now. The thing we're not supposed to do is to use the second coming as a justification for inaction in the present. That's the point, I think, part of the point of Jesus' claim that we don't know the time or the place when this is going to happen.

We should always be ready. But the last thing we should do is just say, well, let's just sort of give up. We don't know what chapter we're in. We don't know whether the United States of America makes it to the end or not. But as James said, we are given the responsibility to do what we can to advance goodness, truth and beauty in the here and now, always counting on the fact that, yes, at some point God in his sovereignty will establish his kingdom in its fullness. That's not a justification for us to surrender right now. In fact, the secular left would love for Christians to think exactly that way.

I am with you on that completely. I want to now go to this here. Page 29 in your book, which is Fight the Good Fight, God in Public. You guys talk, and I believe critically here, of the He Gets Us advertisement. Jay, can you tell us why you decided to mention that? Because it says here, quote, they were just an attempt to make Jesus appeal to left-wing Americans.

So that, you know, over a couple hundred million bucks has been pledged behind that effort. Why is that approach not the best way to spread salt and light in the public discourse? Now, so in theory, of course, any time we are trying to persuade someone, or if you're trying to evangelize someone, you want to speak in a language that they understand.

You don't use sort of foreign terms that are off-putting. So in that sense, I think the He Gets Us campaign makes sense. I think where it failed is that it basically bought into some of the false stereotypes of conservative Christians.

And so that was the thing that I think very much crossed the line. It's one thing to say, okay, I need to speak in a way that a kind of secular leftist will understand. It's another thing to actually appeal to the false stereotypes of Christians in order to curry favor. I think that was the kind of the serious rhetorical slip up in the He Gets Us campaign. And moreover, leftists like AOC didn't even buy it. In fact, they accused the He Gets Us campaign of, I think, advancing Christian nationalism or something like that. So it didn't even actually work with the target audience. And I think in some ways it just perpetuated some of the unfair stereotypes that the media loves to play with.

Perfect segue. So, James, I'm going to let you riff on this. I have this other book, which I'm not trying to plug, but it's important just to say The False White Gospel, which is being pushed by the regime, where they're accusing people like us, James and Jay, of being Christian nationalists. How shall we respond when we get called that label, James, especially in this highly consequential election year? Well, we're Christians that care about everything that matters to everybody that knows what matters. And the Father knows what matters. And we are committed to that. And so if you want to call us names, you're going to call us names anyway.

We want everybody to know that we are here to see the Father's will done on His earth. That's why He left us here. We don't have to give education to the deceiver, but we did. We did it.

Khrushchev was right. They don't have to even take up a weapon against us. We're going to fall into their hands like an overripe tomato. Back in the 70s, I started telling all the people who used the free market to get wealthy to literally endow the universities that basically set up to destroy the free market. And the universities have been given to the deceiver. We can get them back.

We're in the process of showing that right now. We must get them back. We can get our public schools back.

We didn't have to give public education to the government. We didn't have to give the future to an overreaching, overpowering, overthrowing government that is destroying totally what freedom really means. We have the opportunity to literally come together in supernatural unity that Jesus prayed for and see the Father's will done on His earth. And that means we can put people who are principled, and that's what this book's about.

There are about 19 different principles, maybe 20 or more, that are absolutely irreplaceable. And they're easy to put back in place because they work. They bless everybody. That's what God has given us. He has given us direction that blesses His family. And then His family blesses everybody else. That's God's will being done on His earth. He told us to pray for that.

It's not wishful thinking. It's the Father's will. So let's get committed to the Father's will. Let's put people in office and in leadership that understand you can't leave these principles out.

You can't even have a winning sports team if you don't understand respect for one another any more than you can have a good marriage if you don't respect for another. There are principles that have to be in place in every area, and Jay and I touch on those principles, and they are irrefutable. And Jay, you have done masterfully at helping people see it throughout history, why it works, and not having these principles is doomed to total failure. Jay, do you have a thought on that?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're sort of trapped either way because the media has spent several years weaponizing the term Christian nationalism and associating it with white supremacy and all sorts of terrible things. And then there are, of course, a few people that have explicitly defended Christian nationalism in the sense that it's a call for, say, establishing a Calvinist confessional state in the United States of America. OK, there's a few people, few Christians that are arguing that. The vast majority of conservative Christians, what we're interested in is pushing back against the rabid secularism of our public culture, which is actually a betrayal of American history itself. Look, the founders did not establish a national church, but they also created a widespread platform in the public square for religious ideas, the idea that we can't apply the belief that people are made in the image of God to our laws, that we can't apply the natural law that's written on everyone's heart to our laws and our public institutions. It's completely contrary to American history, and it doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make you a person that's calling for, say, the establishment of a national church and a punishment of anyone who's not a Christian.

Almost no one actually believes that. But the media has done a really good job of weaponizing that term so that you either say, OK, we'll find them. I'm a Christian nationalist, in which case they think, OK, we've got you. Or they get you busy denouncing Christian nationalism.

And so the trick is to walk the razor's edge between those two traps that they want us to fall into. Yeah, that's right. And this is a term that has really now been pushed. I mean, it's on the front. It's on the cover of their criticizing books now. I mean, that's really where they're at.

So now let's transition to the election. I know you're with Heritage. You have to be careful how you talk about this. So I totally get it, Jay. James, I don't think, has those same sort of nonprofit shackles. He could say whatever he wants.

But let me ask it this way, Jay. How should Christians think about voting from a biblical standpoint? What, let's just say, inputs or what formula should a Christian use when they look at how to make a decision in this election and all elections for that matter?

Yeah, I would say a couple of things. First, all issues are not created equal. So, look, broadband regulation doesn't have the same relevance in our voting and shouldn't have a relevance in our voting as a sort of defense of life or a defense of the country or our borders, for instance.

So that's the first thing. Second thing is just look at the party platforms and see, OK, which one of these lines up with a robustly Christian or a Judeo-Christian understanding of reality? Look, no one is going to claim that the Republican Party is the religious party and the Democratic Party is the irreligious party. But, you know, just do a little bit of comparing and you can see exactly how this goes.

Now, look, I'm in D.C. I know the Republicans and Democrats, there's a sense in which sometimes you feel like you're dealing with the Uniparty and the Republicans just doing things a little less badly or a little more slowly. But there are some fundamental differences at the level of the party platforms. And then if you're thinking about the kind of personalities involved at the presidential level, think about this. The president who enters the White House in January of 2025 is going to have something like 5000 political appointees. These are going to be the people that run and oversee all of these agencies that you can't remember the names of. So you're not just voting for one person, you're voting for thousands of people who hold one particular view of reality or another view of reality.

And so I'm afraid that people get caught up with the personality foibles and complications of the candidates and don't realize that those candidates are going to represent thousands of people that will actually be doing something for good or for ill in the government. Your thoughts, James, on that? Well, let's understand there is a father who knows this, and that is God. God is not only the creator of God, he's father, and he not only wants the best for us, he can deliver the best for us, he can direct it to us. Jay and I want the best for everybody, and we know the father who knows the best. We're trying to point everybody to his wisdom and his direction and the principles that are as unshakable as the essential foundation of a building that's going to stand has to be there.

And we are doing our best to get people to look at those foundational principles, and they are pro-family, they are pro-relationship, they are pro-success in the truest and purest sense of the word, and they put us in a place where we can bless others. God is a blesser. God wants the best for us. God knows what's best for us, and he can deliver us to it. He can direct us to it, and he can get us so excited about those blessings that we want to share with others. That's what the family of the perfect father does.

And I'm telling you, this ought to be the most exciting thing. Please think about this. Everyone listening, we know the person who knows best and wants the best for you. The very things that you really desire and some of you are fighting for, you're actually destroying the very possibility of having it.

So we're doing our best to show people what the perfect father and the one who knows best wants for all of us and the one who can deliver the best to all of us. You know, I'm the product of a race, and the doctor refused to abort me. And this happened 80 years ago.

I've been here 80 years. It's a miracle. We had 30 grandchildren in a few months. It's unbelievable what God did with a fatherless kid who met the father. And our children and our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren are going to know the father.

And it's that father who needs a family who looks like him and who will share him with the world. That's what I'm seeking to wake up. And I'm telling you, it will shape the world. And by the way, we can turn this thing around more rapidly than anybody could imagine.

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RoughGreens dot com slash Kirk. So, James, at every public event I get to, Christians will come up and they'll say, Charlie, I cannot vote for Trump because of his character, because of what he's done, so on and so forth. James, do you hold that view? Well, God always used imperfect people to accomplish his perfect will. You've got to ask why in the world is Solomon sitting in the Bible?

How did Simon Peter make it after what he did to give the keynote address to Pentecost? So God does use imperfect people, but we have to flow perfect truth and wisdom to them. And that's what we here as Christians are here to do. That's what we've been left here to do. It's what we must do.

And I'm encouraging everybody. I'm actually suggesting right now that the president and all the people looking for someone to be vice president, they consider a great statesman by the name of Mike Huckabee, a tremendous government, has a great daughter who's a great governor and probably would make a great leader of the nation someday. But Mike Huckabee would be a great advisor and a great communicator of great principles to the whole nation, including our president. So I'm just saying, how about look at a statesman that's holding up the truth very effectively?

Why not consider that? We can put these things forward and we really do need the wisdom of God to be in place. And we communicate that wisdom to Donald Trump, even as an imperfect man, imperfect all of us are. We need to be listening to the wisdom of God and seeking to know his wisdom and to share it. Amen. So, Jay, let me ask it this way. The significance of the election is incredible and is for Christians very consequential.

Can you lay out the stakes for a Christian that might think it doesn't matter? Absolutely. Let me just give you a little obscure inside baseball detail. The Biden administration just finalized a rule for something called Title IX, which is the law passed in 1972, that basically gives women equal treatment in federally funded institutions. That's where we got all the women's sports and colleges. The Biden administration changed the definition. The word sex appears in Title IX but is never defined. And so under the Biden administration, a new rule says, sexual include gender identity and sexual orientation.

What does that mean? What that means is that henceforth, a man that identifies as a woman can say, okay, I want to play in women's sports and the Department of Justice will defend him and his civil rights against the women whose civil rights are being violated because they're having to compete against a male. So at the federal level under this administration, we're literally dissolving the category of male and female, man and woman in federal law. That's essentially what's happening. It's very hard to think of a greater stake than something like that, in which you have a political ideology that seeks not to just destroy the family, not just to destroy life, unborn and preborn life, but to destroy the very foundation of civilization and the family itself, namely the binary of male and female. That's what we're talking about and that's why I think, frankly, so many people that are now calling themselves refugees are reconsidering their political orientation and commitments. It's over things like this. It's just much, much more radical than some of the things that we're used to arguing about politically. In closing here, James, what is the final, let's just say, send-off for the book and for our audience Fight the Good Fight?

I hope you'll read the book and consider all the press. But how about taking chapter 17 of John, Jesus' Prayer, that we have a personal relationship with this father I'm talking about. Personal relationship, not a religious association or affiliation. Then that we be shaped and shaped literally by the Word of God. That is the shaping process in our life.

It shapes the play. But then Jesus prayed something, that we would be supernaturally in unity. This is absolutely irreplaceable. The church needs to come together in total unity, submitted to the one head. Each member, each body, each person connected to the other members, each uniquely designed, but fulfill God's will and make a kingdom impact.

It has to be in unity. So church people, Christian people come together in supernaturally unity around the principles of God, which we do share very clearly related to political action and what matters in the nation in the book Fight the Good Fight. Thank you both, Jay Richards and Jay Robison. The book is excellent.

It's right here. It is very well endorsed. Lots of praise.

Fight the Good Fight, how an alliance of faith and reason can win the culture war. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Charlie. God bless you guys. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charleykirk.com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless.