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Welcome into the Winklerverse. I'm Bart Winkler. This is game day. The United States takes on Bosnia and Herzegovina tonight. We're going to talk some soccer.
I'm very. Anxious. It feels like a game day. I'm very excited. And we're going to talk some soccer with Charles Gardner.
You remember him from his longtime coverage at the Journal Sentinel, perhaps Bucks. I didn't realize, and this is a failure on me. I didn't realize how extensive your work was in soccer. Before that, you had covered the wave, you had covered the rampage. And so, I guess there was a time, Charles, when.
The paper required a daily soccer writer. I missed those days, I suppose. Yeah.
Well, I had a soccer column for a while that it was sometimes Bart, it was sometimes a fight to get soccer in the paper. But we kept at it. And of course, the wave was very popular. Milwaukee has a. Great soccer background, you know, from the Bavarian club and the Croatians and all those.
folks who who have played soccer here for decades. And so that was a lot of fun. It was kind of something new for me too. And I just kind of took it and and ran with it. It was.
It was a lot of, it was really, really a great experience. I got to cover. uh Women's World Cup in 99. when the U. S.
women won. I was at the Rose Bowl that day. Brandy took her shirt off. Wow. And the women won.
And I covered the men in two thousand six in Germany, which was just a thrill just to be over there. And that's a country that, of course. loves uh soccer and of course they're all upset now over there because they're already out of the World Cup. But they don't like that uh at all. And so, but we had such a great time over there.
The U.S. did not do so well over there went out in the first round But we stayed over there and covered some other matches in Leipzig and Berlin, covered Germany and Argentina and Berlin. That was quite an experience. What were the years you would you covered soccer? Um for the Sentinel then.
Well, I guess that's a good question, Mark, but it was late 90s and into the 2000s. Then I started doing more Bucks coverage as well. And of course, eventually I focused on the NBA and the Bucks, but You know, I was really lucky to be able. to do both of those things. The wave and the rampage, the rampage were big too.
I grew up in Fonduac, but we came down a lot. For rampage games, I probably came down for rampage and wave games more than I ever came down for brewers games. And I just talked with Michael King a couple weeks ago. Just like Recounting what the, like, the wave are still, the wave have a place here, certainly. But they were bigger.
It was it was They were at the Bradley Center. I mean, I went to the There was obviously the game everyone says they were at is when Brett Favre was there and threw some passes or whatever. But we also came down for playoff games. And they filled that place up like the wave, then. I don't know how they recapture that or why it.
disappear because people love soccer. There's certainly, I drive around for this World Cup. You couldn't go anywhere from Mexico last night. But I just the the I don't I don't know how. I don't know.
That just seems like a moment in time that you can't get back to what the wave. specifically were at a certain time in Milwaukee. You have that absolutely right, Bart. There was. you know, major league soccer had not taken off yet.
And really, some of the best players were playing indoors. you know you said michael king like he was one of my favorite guys that i covered Victor De Guerra, he was a world-class goalkeeper. He could have played anywhere. Outdoors, you know, but he wanted to live in America. And he wanted to live here.
And he was just a sensational, you know, goalkeeper. And, but, Again, Major League Soccer was just Just starting there in the late 90s. And then once Major League Soccer took off a little, Of course, that took the luster off the indoor game, and some of those really. Great.
Soccer players, they were going to go outdoors and play. They were going to play in MLS. And so I think it's amazing the wave is still going and is still thriving. You know, that's great. But you're right, it was a different thing in the 90s.
Of course, they were winning championships. They had Michael Richardson, Michael King. They had Good great. Players. I covered some of them.
I went to Baltimore and Philly to cover them, you know, in those championships. And Keith Tozner was the coach. He was very good at. At keeping his team in the limelight, he knew how to do that. And as you say, they had crowds of 10,000.
Brett Favre, that was 18,000 right when he came, of course. But they they had a Saturday afternoon crowd sometimes that were And they they had to play at one o'clock, you know, because the Bucs were playing that night. Or the Admirals. If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odo. ODU is an all-in-one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy-to-use platform.
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Yeah.
Raise your hand to help at bfa.com slash soccer at schools. Yeah, it was it was wild. We came down for those games and And it was packed and I don't know. What I thought it would turn into, but I went to the last, I've gone to a few games recently, but. The last time they were in the championship here.
Well, they were in the championship this year, but it was a few years ago they won the championship. Yeah, and I think the crowd was interesting because it was like Half of them People that go and wave season ticket holders. And then the other half were people like me that were like. Oh, yeah, I remember the wave. I'll go check out this.
I'll go check out this championship game. um so they and we took my our kid uh we we had a we had a great time Um, it's just, yeah, there's so much, you know, more content and Entertainment things now that just I did that that wave time was really special. And the Rampage, the Rampage were unique too. And I just miss like having. I know we have the torrent here, but people aren't really.
They don't really go to that. They play it in Wauwatosa. Milwaukee Pro Soccer, I was doing some stuff for, and then. I, people ask me all the time, like, what happened? I don't know.
Uh I don't know. I would I would love to have a team here, the Ford Madison team. I did PA for them for a summer. That was a blast, and they draw a good crowd. I think.
The thing that America is missing. That in terms of soccer and major league soccer, whatever, I'm wearing a clash hat right now. But Major League Soccer, whatever. It's these little clubs. That can turn into bigger clubs with the promotion and relegation.
And then, like London's got 50 soccer teams over there and that sense of community. Because when you're around town for the World Cup, Soccer is huge. It's just, we don't have collectively. You know, other than the wave, but we don't have collectively a chance for all of Milwaukee. To get together to root for one team.
And I think we could support a small version. We're not going to have 40,000 people like a brewer game, but. I do think we could do that in Milwaukee. There's certainly an appetite for it. It's just.
It just seems all splintered. Yeah, it was kind of unfortunate it never happened. There were fits and starts and Some owner, you know, interest and so on. You look at Minnesota United, you know, they're so successful. Up there in St.
Paul, and of course. They wanted to build a stadium in Minneapolis and the mayor of Minneapolis didn't want it.
So they went to St. Paul and it's, you know, that's one of the most wonderful soccer stadiums in America. It's gorgeous. If you ever get a chance to go there, it's incredible. And so they did it.
And I just think there were some forces conspiring against it, you might say, in our city.
So it never happened, which is a little unfortunate. St. Louis, which is another soccer city, a little like Milwaukee with that. Ethnic soccer history, they finally did get a a major league soccer team, and you know they're doing pretty well with that. The Chicago Fire, I covered the fire back when they started and Bob Bradley was the coach.
And I always laugh about it because Bob Bradley You know, I mean, he would know me, and why did he know me? But he just knew everybody who was involved in soccer. That's how small. That's how close-knit the soccer in America was and probably still is. You know, Bob Gansler, who coached the Rampage here, you know, he's a Hall of Famer.
And was a very uh you know close friend of mine after the days that That I covered him. He and I used to do like a World Cup preview during the World Cups because he just has so much. you know, so much knowledge of that. Do you feel like when you covered soccer, and even looking back at the 2006 World Cup? Um Do you?
Does it feel like when you look at like, because I think there's a thriving community of soccer, it's just it's all splintered and maybe Premier League this or World Cup this or you know, whatever, but do you? Do you Can you see that there has been growth? Like, I think in 1994. I, you know, was young. But I I knew in 1994, I was mad that baseball went on strike.
Baseball was my first love. They went on strike. I was heartbroken. And then I was a big soccer guy.
So I thought, okay, the MLS is going to come, it's going to take off, and this is going to be a soccer country. I wouldn't say we're a soccer country, but if you told me back then, The kind of attention and love and Admiration. Like, I'm worried that I'm not going to get into the places I want to get into tonight because how many people want to check out this USA game?
So, if you told me back then, what soccer would become. in Milwaukee in America. Um, 30 years ago, I would I would take that as a, like, I would be blown away. Like, wow, it's, it's that, it's that cool. Do you have you seen that growth?
Have you followed that growth? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think. When I was Covering the sport back at the Journal Sentinel. As I said, you know, there were.
there were fights about it, about whether this was worth doing. And of course, I thought it was. And, you know, it's heartening to see. Uh Where soccer has come in America. I think the misconception was that so many people had.
at the time. Was that everybody said, oh, it's going to be the next big thing. Oh, it's going, oh, it's going to replace football or baseball.
Now, wait a minute. That was never gonna happen.
Okay, that, so that was just like a false argument. That wasn't going to happen, but there was a place for it. There were a lot of people that just wanted to push it out because they were comfortable in their little baseball, football world. Hey, I love baseball and football just as much as anyone. You know, I love all those sports.
But So it was kind of a false argument. The real argument was Was soccer going to have a place in, you know, it wasn't going to be like in some of these other countries in the world. A Brazil or Argentina, where it's the number one sport. Nobody said that, I don't think, you know, but it was going to be a sport that had a place on the stage. And Well, it's shown that it has.
And, you know, you look at places like Portland and Seattle and where younger people have really embraced the sport. And really all across the country. And of course with the World Cup. You can see we have the advantage of all these stadiums. I was laughing watching the.
Which game was it yesterday in Dallas? Oh, Norway, the Norway game, which, you know, they've taken the World Cup by storm. But here with the broadcasters on Fox. Saying, oh, this is just so amazing. Here they are at Jerry World at the Cowboys Stadium and say, oh my gosh, I've never seen a TV screen this big.
Oh, I've never seen.
So, you know, and even NFL players saying, hey, we're kind of envious that all these guys get to play on grass. You know, so that it is really interesting, but I think we have that ability because we do. We're this great country with so many stadiums, so many great cities. And I think that's what you're seeing in this World Cup, you know, like the Tartan Army drinking Boston Drive. You can't make this stuff up.
It's so great. And I wish Chicago got, you know, I wish they were more involved. The closest to us is Kansas City. Um and that's why, you know, I I I have been trying to find like Mexico does a really good job. Colombia, they fill up the, or fans filled up the.
The food truck park. England, they've got a good uh They got a good base that will be at three lines or red line or wherever they're going to go today.
So, I've been the Croatia. The last World Cup, I was able to go to the Croatian soccer club and. Oh, they just had a party down there. It was so fun. And that's the kind of stuff that, like, so we have the stadiums.
But America's also got these little Pockets of people from all over the place and Milwaukee, too, which is so awesome to see. Again, I wish we could like. Find a way to all um You know, be together and root for one thing, like the Milwaukee thing. And maybe someday that happens with the cup you were at in Germany. Um Because that, I think, is the cool experience.
I went to Germany. For a senior class trip. Probably four years before that. But what I remember was. I was there.
During the Champions League, which I didn't know much about at the time, but there were Bayern Munich fans on one side of the street. Man you fans on the other. Like hundreds of them just doing chants back and forth to each other in the middle of the street. And that image is like burned into my head about just how cool and passionate, and that I got to see that to be in a country when the World Cup is going on and to cover it. What are the things 20 years later that you are imprinted in your brain that you got to see?
Well, I'm glad you said that. The Germany is such a s uh football country, a soccer country. You know, the the nation would just shut down during the Germany games. It's like a Packer game here. Yeah.
I always said, okay, it's the Packers, but but You know, the same thing, but the whole country would shut down when Germany played. And, you know, they did very well. Klinsman was the coach then, you know, who's later our coach, but he was the coach of Germany that year. And he was kind of charged with restoring some of their glory, which he did. You know, he got them quite far in the tournament.
And, you know, Italy won the championship, but we were there almost to the end. One of the things that I remember, we had a place in Cologne. It was the sports rider from St. Louis and myself. We had found.
this really great. place in Cologne. To stay. It was the home of a professor at the university there, and she was going to Paris just to get out of the World Cup. She just wanted out during the World Cup.
So we got this great deal to stay there. And it was the perfect place, very central. You got on the train and you could go anywhere. I went up to Hamburg for the U.S. camp.
to start and then You know, we covered all the US matches. And I mean, it was just a riot. One thing I remember. was there was a Colombian sports bar in Cologne.
Now this is where the Columbian fans hung out. And you know, you're just like, wow, this is crazy to see. And you could just go there, and all the Colombian fans were there. During the during their games. And the other one other indelible memory I have is.
You know, I heard a lot of national anthems in my time. You know, adverse games, but just like you said, go into all these games, wave. but the national anthem before the Italy US game. I'll never forget. I have goosebumps just talking to you about it right now.
I mean, it was just. It was just incredible. And because there was a US Army base near there. And, you know, and Strangely enough, that was the best game we played. We played Italy to a one-to-one draw.
Yeah, that was a rough cup for them. And they were just coming off the success of 2002. And then. Base six was kind of a letdown out of the group stage. Yeah, when it wasn't the The tournament we were hoping for, the U.S.
was hoping for. Bruce Arena was the coach, of course. You know, was a very good coach. But I always remember that anthem and how. How inspiring that was that day.
So there were just, you know, it was just so much fun. And in Cologne, I can't You know, go without saying that's where they brew all the Kolsch beer. They have different Kolsch beers at every bar. You know, in Cologne.
So to say we had to sample a few, you know, that was part of the experience. Yeah, you can't, you can't not. It's part you're in Germany. That's right. That's like water.
Yeah.
And I think like, so that that cup. For the USA. Was a bummer and then They've had other, like 2010 was a fun cup. They did all right. The last time, They lost to the Netherlands, and then there was a Belgium loss.
They didn't make it in 18, which. Stinks. But this cup. And I'm talking to you before the game. Right.
And I think a lot of people are assuming that they're going to win. Which It's the World Cup. We just saw Germany. You never know.
So, if they go to penalties tonight, I will probably faint. I could not handle that. I think, like. I just I really We need they need to win. Because with every win It's going to get bigger.
And it's just like when the Packers are in the playoffs or whatever. When the Packers are in the playoffs or the Brewers are in the postseason. You're interested in every other game because your team's still in it. I just don't want, there's such a momentum, there's such a high, everyone's loving this. The but the USA has To win.
They've showed a really good form. This is a good team. They've got a great coach. The further they go, though, Charles, like, I don't think it's just. It's just like in the playoffs, like when the Brewers are in the first round.
Okay, but when they're in the NLCS. You can like taste it in the you like you can take you can taste it in the town, you can feel it. There's a buzz. I just hope that continues. I think this team is the team to do it, but we're gonna find out tonight.
Absolutely. I mean, I think. They're, you know, obviously they lost the game against Turkey, but you have to remember that was the B team. They made. Nine changes.
You know, and they had McKinney. In there to kind of keep things, keep things going. And hey, they almost. Yeah.
They should have had a draw. They shouldn't have given up that goal at the end.
Okay. But again, They you know pochettino seems to have found a really good Um Lineup You know, Tillman's playing great. Who knew about Alex Freeman? Antonio Freeman's son playing so tremendous, scoring the goal against Australia.
So, you know, he's moved Dest up a little higher on the pitch, and that way he's able to link up. with the forwards politic. supposed to start tonight.
So, you know, this was always the thought that this we were building toward this team. toward this World Cup. And over the last few years, there were a lot of hiccups, and people were thinking, I was thinking. Hey, you know, we're not going to be ready when we get there. This is our big chance.
And are we really going to be ready? But they came out in that Paraguay match and showed. Hey, they were ready to go, right? You know, and scoring four goals.
So I think Bosnia, they have this bad record against European teams. It's kind of a jinx right now.
So let's see if they can. you know, overcome that. And as you say, then the excitement just ramps up. You're talking about Monday then against Belgium or Senegal. And if you really want to think we can make the quarterfinals, then you're talking about Spain.
On July 10th, possibly Spain. Can you imagine if we could get to that round?
Now that's looking ahead, but if you could get there. If you could get to the quarterfinal, that would be that would really be something. I remember the O two World Cup. because that's one reason I went in 06. Because in 02, we had played so well, Tony Sane missed a tying goal against Germany by inches.
And you know, our own Tony Sane from Minnesota and Milwaukee.
So, you know, I think.
Well, there was a handball that wasn't called either, which would have been reviewed in today's game. There was, yes. You remember.
So, and that was a really great World Cup, probably the best one that we've had. But I agree with you, Bart. Like, this is really a big chance. And as you see, you know, you see how hard it is for all these teams. We've had great game after great game.
Japan played really well, but They went out against Brazil. You know, Morocco certainly deserved it, you know, and I actually like the expanded field because look at this Cape Verde story. It's crazy, you know, it's a wonderful story. Yeah, and if soccer's only gonna if they're only gonna do this World Cup every four years, it doesn't hurt to add another round. Like we could, we can, it's gonna be four years before we do this again.
Give us some soccer. Like make it worth your while. Make it worth. The way it goes. I don't mind it either.
I agree. Yeah.
No, there's been some great. Great games, and there have been a couple blowouts. I get it with that, like Germany 7-1 over Curaçao. But there have also been these incredible games where Cape Verde had a draw with Spain and got out of the group. You know, so it's, it's, and certainly that'll be one to watch: Cape Verde against Messi in Argentina, no matter what happens.
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If the US goes further, we can't even comprehend what it will look like. And I'll use that as a transition into your Bucks days. Because As a box Fan. Um to think that one day. The deer district would exist.
And then B, look like what it looked like when they won the finals, game six. not just inside, but then outside. Giannis obviously was a big driver of that. You covered him when he first came over here. Um for a handful of years.
Did you see? the potential or when i guess when would you have seen like All right, there's something different about the player this guy can be, and a championship in Milwaukee. Could be possible with him. Yeah, well, that first year that he came, they won 15 games. And I remember my boss saying to me, Charles like How can you figure out some ideas to write about this team?
And I was like, well, I just come up with something every day. But you know, Mark, the thing was about Giannis. I don't know if I thought there was a championship that first year, that he was a rookie and that skinny kid from Greece. But I always told people when I was on the road, I said, he's going to do one thing tonight that you won't believe. He's going to do something, even as a rookie, he's going to do one thing.
that you won't believe. And I remember going to the game in Oklahoma City and Durant was playing for the Thunder then. And I thought, okay, after the game, you know, I think Giannis had played pretty well, and he had just. Been so looking forward to even going against Kevin Durant, right, for the first time. And I thought, I got to go to the locker room and talk to KD.
And I did. And he was so good, you know, about saying. Hey, this, you know, he's very gracious. He could have said, hey, I don't know, this kid's a rookie, you know, but he didn't say that. He said.
hey he's going to be special there's something special about him And it just kind of kept going from there. And I think the fourth year, my last year on the beat, he made the all-star team. And that was such a big thing at the time for him to make that first all-star team. and I remember the journalists came over from Greece. It was in New Orleans.
And you know, I was kind of trying to help them get around New Orleans. And, but that it was just such a big deal. I think maybe that's when I started thinking.
Okay, you know, there's something special. going here and um you know i was i was lucky i retired but in 20 21, you know, it was just after COVID, and one of my Greek journalist friends. Asked me if I could write some stories for his website over there, which I did. And they translated them into Greek. But that was fun for me because I got to be a little.
Part of that. You know, I always joke with people, I say it covered a lot of losses, you know. Far too many, right? But no, but it was great. I mean, to cover those teams, and you know, Miami had Bosch and uh.
you know, Dwayne Wade and LeBron, there were some great. great games and And great teams in that era.
So it was a lot of fun.
Now, Giannis going to Miami.
So we'll see how that works. Yeah.
Does he? Um, because you covered him, so you were there pretty intensely, and now. It fractured in Milwaukee for different reasons, whether it's ownership or whatever, or coaching. And then also, he grows up and, He's more. I've said it's not just Giannis Adetta Kumpo anymore.
It's also little Giannis Incorporated because he's got a new commercial seemingly coming out every day. Yeah.
Does he seem from what you see of him now, from what you knew of him, does he seem Different? Is it still the same guy, just with more? Things he has to answer for? Did you feel like he's changed at all? You know, I don't see him on a daily basis, of course, anymore.
I used to do a few stories for Associated Press after I retired, and I get to see him. And a little bit and talk to him a little bit. But I think he's the same person he really is. Uh stardom. Changes you, right?
I mean, stardom. There are things that you have to deal with. He has a family now.
So, so many things different than when he started in Milwaukee. I think what's great for Milwaukee is that we had what, 12, 13. We're going to look back and say, hey, we had the best of his career. I really think we are going to say that.
So, you know, whereas Kareem, I get it, but the best of his. He won the championship here. It was great. But really, most people probably remember him as a Laker. But I don't I don't think that will happen with Giannis.
We'll see, you know, if he can go get a second title, more power to him. Paul Moliter went and got his World Series in Toronto, you know, more power to him. But I think he'll be remembered as a Milwaukee Buck. Primarily in his career. And as you say, there were mistakes.
There were mistakes all around. In this last season, I think it was unfortunate. But um I I hope history will treat it that way because it was sure a special time here. Great stuff to look back on, both Bucks and soccer. Enjoy the game tonight.
Hopefully, there's more USA games to enjoy. Charles Gardner, appreciate you stopping into the Winklerverse. All right. Very, very kind of you to do so. And thanks again.
Thank you, Bart. Appreciate it. Thanks much. Go, USA. Enjoy the game tonight, everybody.
And thanks for stopping into the Winklerverse. Yeah.
Soccer teaches us lessons we can take with us long after we leave the field. That's why Bank of America and U.S.
Soccer are committed to helping bring soccer to every school.
Yeah.
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