Biden’s IRS Abuse: Jay Goes Before Congress

Today on Sekulow, it's back again. Biden's IRS abuse. Our chief counsel, Jay Sekulow, is before Congress testifying and then joining us live on the broadcast. Keeping you informed and engaged, now more than ever, this is Sekulow. I have said in 2015, and I'm going to unfortunately have to repeat it again today, despite the fact that we have a consent decree entered into federal court dealing with the IRS's targeting of the conservative groups and the Tea Party groups and pro-life groups, that I believe the IRS is institutionally incapable of self-correcting.

We want to hear from you. Share and post your comments or call 1-800-684-3110. The consent decree was issued saying that they would correct and not do it again. Fast forward five years and they've done it again.

In fact, they've done it this time even more brazenly. And now your host, Jordan Sekulow. Welcome to Sekulow. We are taking your phone calls. 1-800-684-3110.

That's 1-800-684-3110. So right now, as I speak to you live at noon Eastern Time, my dad is finishing up a testimony before a special House Ways and Means Committee hearing set up specifically by the Republicans. Democrats won't participate, but it's about the IRS targeting. We've seen the IRS rear its ugly head. Yet again, we've talked about that case where they went after a religious organization and put this in writing, quote, The Bible teachings are typically affiliated with the Republican Party and candidates.

This disqualifies you from exemption. That group was testifying today. So that testimony is happening as we speak. Here is my dad, our Chief Counsel of the ACLJ, in the opening at this hearing today. My first job out of law school was with the Office of Treasury, the Office of Chief Counsel, and the IRS.

I was a trial lawyer for the Internal Revenue Service. Things have changed a lot since the 40 years ago I worked there. I don't recall ever having a point of view. Alright, so we've got an issue there with the video. Again, this is happening live as we speak. But I want you to all understand the reason why this is happening again. Remember, twice now when we're on the second move, first we had the Congress try and remove the lowest learner rule. That happened earlier in the year. The section that required the IRS not to utilize any group's ideology to determine whether or not they are tax exempt. That failed. Now the IRS wants another $80 billion.

But have they corrected it? The idea here, we believe at the ACLJ, as evidenced through this group, that the IRS was talking about the Word of God, talking about Biblical teachings being affiliated with a specific political party. That's exactly what we fought against 10 years ago and why we have to continue to fight today.

So Andy, as we speak right now, he's testifying before this hearing. Notable, the Democrats want nothing to hear about it. The Democrats are noticeably absent. They don't want to be a part of it. They don't want to be affiliated with anything that speaks to this issue. And I think, once again, we are facing the battle against the IRS that I thought we'd want, Jordan, when we had the Linchpins for Liberty consent order against the IRS. And we had repealed and done away with the Lois Lerner rule, essentially, under that consent decree.

The government had agreed that it would not target Christian organizations based on their religious beliefs. And now, again, now we have a rule that's being proposed by Representative Sarbanes, a liberal Democrat from Maryland, H.R. 1, that would put back the Lois Lerner rule that did stop the IRS from targeting speech.

Now, if enacted into law, these provisions would re-weaponize, re-weaponize the IRS and limit the abilities of organizations, corporations, and individuals to freely exercise the most fundamental right guaranteed under the United States Constitution. My dad will be joining us when that hearing wraps up. We'll have some more from the hearing to play for you when we come back from the break. Remember, we've got a petition up at ACLJ.org to defeat the Biden IRS from targeting Christians and conservatives. Yes, it's happening again. It hasn't gotten out of control.

We don't believe yet the level it was with the Tea Party cases. But you have to watch very carefully because when they target one and someone speaks out, you don't know how many people just said, you know what, I want nothing to do with this. I just, we just won't have our group. We won't go for this exempt status. And that's what we're always concerned about is that they are scaring more people away than we're even learning about, which is why you always want to contact us.

If you feel you're being treated this way by the IRS, we can handle it and handle it quickly, but we have to know about it at ACLJ.org forward slash help. If you've got those issues, our petition up, we'll be right back on secular. The challenges facing Americans are substantial at a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack. It's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines, protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress and in the public arena. And we have an exceptional track record of success.

But here's the bottom line. We could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms. That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side.

If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life changing work. Become a member today, ACLJ.org.

Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases. How we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, Planned Parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.

Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. Alright, so as we speak, testimony continues this House Ways and Means Committee hearing put together by Republicans on that committee because of the IRS rearing its ugly head once again targeting conservative groups, Christian groups specifically, talking about things like the word of God in their own analysis of whether groups should get tax exempt status talking about. Well if you are, this just tells a lot about the mainstream, I don't know about mainstream view, but at least the bureaucratic view of religious people in America. Quote, the Bible teachings are typically affiliated with the Republican party candidates. This disqualifies you from exemption.

So if you have any kind of religious viewpoint, specifically Christian coming from the Bible, then oh well that's typically affiliated with Republicans so you must be disqualified. This is happening after we beat the IRS. This is after the consent agrees stating the IRS will not base any of their determinations on a group's ideology which would include their religious beliefs.

But I want you to hear from the hearing itself, my dad again addressing questions and the members of Congress including Congressman Kelly, Kevin Brady, Devin Nunes and others. I have said in 2015 and I'm going to unfortunately have to repeat it again today despite the fact that we have a consent decree entered into federal court dealing with the IRS's targeting of the conservative groups and the Tea Party groups and pro-life groups that I believe the IRS is institutionally incapable of self-correcting. I believe they're institutionally incapable of correcting themselves even when, and I will hold it up here, we have a multi-page consent order issued and signed by a federal judge. A portion of this, members, says this, the IRS acknowledges that the First Amendment prohibits the government from discriminating against citizens on the basis of viewpoints of their protected speech or other protected associational interests.

It goes on to say that the IRS admits that its treatment of the plaintiffs during the tax exempt determination process including screening the applications based on their names, policy positions, subjecting those applications to heightened scrutiny and inordinate delays as set forth in the TIGDA report which is the Inspector General's report was unnecessary to the agency's determination of their tax exempt status and was wrong. And then a consent decree was issued saying that they would correct and not do it again. Fast forward five years and they've done it again.

In fact, they've done it this time even more brazenly. So there you go. Then again, from the hearing and you have to clip it right out of it and right to you. This is all happening within the last, it's about 11 a.m. Eastern time, so an hour before going on the air. Good call coming in from Chris from Nevada. I want to take this because I think it sets up to what we're talking about using these legal terms. Hey, Chris, welcome to Sekulow.

You're on the air. Hi, and I don't know if this is more for you or for Andy, but what exactly is a consent decree? It's not a court judgment and are there potential sanctions attached to it for not obeying it?

Well, I will say this, Chris. Back when this case was handled, there was our case which was a civil case based on kind of the constitutional violations. There was also a case for damages. A lot of our clients were part of. The IRS had to pay damages as well.

There were multiple ways the IRS was being hit during that time period, both for real damages but also what we wanted to focus on was institutionally. And that's where this consent decree comes into effect, Andy. That's right, Jordan. Yes, a consent decree is a judgment of a court. It is a judgment of a court. It is a judgment of a court by consent of the parties. All the plaintiffs and the defendant, the IRS, entered into a decree signed by a U.S. district judge, which is a judgment of the court, and the way it works is the parties, in this case, the IRS, apologized for the mistreatment of conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status and said that they would not repeat it. This legislation that is being proposed would reverse that judgment and that court decree and make legislation now that replaces the Lois Lerner approach and that was abused by Lois Lerner and that would permit the retargeting of conservative nonprofit organizations who believed in God, the Bible, and Christian values. So what this legislation is seeking to do is essentially upend and upset that consent judgment or decree entered by the district court. Yeah, so there you go.

That kind of explains what the situation is. Michael wrote in on YouTube, aren't freedom of religion and freedom of association still the law of the land? I mean, Harry, you would think that's the law of the land, but when you see terminology in, this is after we won these cases, saying that, well, because you're associated with biblical teachings, that means you must be associated with the Republican Party, so you're out. That's modern IRS language. Absolutely, and so I think it's very, very imperative to note, as Jay put it earlier, that the IRS has failed to correct itself.

Indeed, it's incapable of correcting itself. So instead, the IRS has doubled down on its commitment to bigotry by classifying the Bible as a form of politics. So having failed in the court and in the court of public opinion, the Democrats now seek, via a statute, a For the People Act, which really means For the Democratic Party Act, they seek to overturn the Lois Lerner rule. But they implicitly are seeking to overturn constitutional provisions which protect freedom of speech and freedom of belief. They believe, I think they believe this sincerely, that they can pass a law which basically invalidates provisions of the United States Constitution. So that would then leave us with no choice but to go back to court and to protect these conservative and Christian organizations through litigation, and hopefully we can find a federal judge who still believes in the United States Constitution, who believes in the text, who believes in Supreme Court precedent. But I think at the end of the day, what we are witnessing, both at the IRS and within the halls of Congress, is an attempted power grab by the IRS, and they are attempting to increase their funding by a total of $80 billion so that they can engage in surveillance of individual transactions that you and I make, so long as it exceeds a threshold of $600. So this would be a massive invasion of privacy, and at the end of the day, the Democrats clearly are demonstrating they do not believe in the United States Constitution. Here's what they're doing again, I just want you to understand, this is from the hearing today, this is from a group called Christians Engaged that, very similar, I mean it's almost eerie how similar it was to the way that the IRS, the Tea Party groups were treated. Take a listen. The fact that after five years of litigation and a consent decree entered into in October of 2017, it didn't take this administration five months to begin again its harassment and targeting of individuals based specifically on their viewpoint.

But this one's even more onious than the other ones that I've handled, I've handled probably 100 of these cases over the course of my career, probably more than that. This one starts with a legend, it includes D equals Republican, so they don't want to say the name Republican in the letter, so they use the word D, which of course would, if they were being honest, if they were doing a legend, would be Democrat, but they're not being honest. They talk about M, M is the word of God. Now I want everyone to think for a moment, why is an IRS agent writing the word of God in a determination letter on a tax exempt entity?

How did that come into their thought process? How did this paragraph get approved by a group manager in the Internal Revenue Service when there is a consent decree saying they can't do this, and then it reads as follows. You are like an organization described in American Campaign Academy because you are serving private interests of the D party more than incidentally in confirmation of treasury regulations, the D party of course being Republicans, as well as serving a substantial non-exempt private purpose. For example, you educate believers on national issues that are central to their belief in the Bible as the inherent word of God.

Let me stop right there. An IRS agent took a government computer to write out that you're being denied tax exempt status because you have a central belief that the Bible is the inherent word of God. Then it says specifically you educate Christians on what the Bible says in the areas that they deem instrumental, including sanctity of life, biblical justice, freedom of speech, U.S. and Israel relations. The Bible teachings are typically affiliated with the D party candidates. This disqualifies you for exemption.

Let me think about that. I just alone using D to identify as the Republican party to try and confuse people, to try and mislead people. It's why it's never done unintentionally. No one wrote word of God.

No one made these connections on accident. These individuals are egged on and encouraged in this culture at the IRS which is why we believe as an institution it doesn't serve the modern day purpose of a revenue. You could set this up much more autonomous so that you're not having these individuals make these personal decisions about who's too religious for tax exempt status and no one should be. The IRS should never be considered your ideology, whether it's your political ideology or your religious ideology, for whether or not your organization should receive tax exempt status.

The religion should never come into play. We're fighting back. That's testifying right now as we speak. This hearing is ongoing and we'll be right back on Secular. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases. How we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, Planned Parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.

Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. The challenges facing Americans are substantial. At a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack, it's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines protecting your freedoms, defending your rights, in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena.

And we have an exceptional track record of success. But here's the bottom line, we could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms.

That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org where you can learn more about our life changing work.

Become a member today, ACLJ.org. Welcome back to Sekulow. We're taking your phone calls to 1-800-684-3110. My dad just finished up, he's in the studio now, the hearing on Capitol Hill, but he was actually, not because of the pandemic still, so able to do this hearing remote.

I want to go to Thad Bennett. Thad, you just jumped in our studio in Washington, D.C. Just to explain to people, again it's kind of reset what happened this morning and the purpose of why this hearing was called by these members of Congress. Yeah, Jordan, this is in front of the U.S. House Ways and Means Committee and the panelists, the Republicans there, led by ranking member Mike Kelly from the Oversight Committee convened this hearing, Jordan, for a couple of reasons. First of all, the IRS targeting that we handled a few years back, more than 40 cases representing Tea Party groups and other conservative groups. Essentially, Jordan, it's happening again. The IRS is at it again. So they had your dad, our chief counsel, on to talk about the targeting that we have so much experience in and then also a representative from First Liberty to talk about the Christians Engage case that we've talked about on this broadcast before and that we have a FOIA request out on. Essentially, Jordan, the IRS is targeting conservatives and Christians again just like they did back when we handled those cases and so your dad had the opportunity to provide testimony to the committee about what needs to be done to that.

We can get into some of that in a minute, but I would just give you two things, Jordan. First of all, the Congress is currently trying to repeal a win that we got accomplished. It's known as the lowest learner rule that says the IRS cannot target groups based on their viewpoint. They're trying to take that out of U.S. law as we speak. It's in H.R.

1. And the second thing they're trying to do, Jordan, they're trying to throw $80 billion at the IRS before they fix this. So as your dad correctly testified to them, why would you give $80 billion to an institution that has proven to be incapable of self-correction? That's what the Congress is proposing. That's why the Ways and Means Committee Republicans held this hearing today, and that's why we were testifying.

All right, Dad, you're joining us now. You were able to testify before the committee, and again, we're starting to see the IRS, they said it once again, it's rearing its ugly head. Just using that one term, like you said, where they used it in the D to represent a Republican, trying to throw people off, putting the phrase Word of God in an IRS letter, and the list goes on. Yeah, and they used M for that, by the way. When they didn't want to say Word of God, they would just say M. Yeah.

So here's what you have. This is the tragedy of the whole thing, is you have to realize that once we had this litigation underway during the Obama administration and resolved under the Trump administration, we had basically four years where we had no IRS issues with clients. The Obama administration, there was a lot of problems. There was all this targeting.

Biden comes in, who's a product of the Obama administration, obviously, and within months, they're right back at it. Despite a federal court decree that says you cannot do this, and despite a rule in Congress that says you cannot do this, Andy, the IRS did it again. I held up the consent decree, actually, Jordan, and read from it and told them, it says right here, you will not determine tax exempt status by the viewpoint the group expouses.

That's yet precisely what they did. Well, I worked with you deeply and intimately in connection with that case, the lynchpins of liberty, in which we represented 40-plus organizations who were suing the IRS because they were being discriminated against because of their religious status and their political beliefs and should have been granted tax exempt status. We worked out after months of haggling with the IRS a comprehensive consent decree, which is a judgment signed by a United States district judge, which becomes the law and tells the IRS you can't do that anymore. And in that thing, the IRS in that document, actually, Jay, if you remember, apologized.

Yeah, well, they apologized, but you know what the problem is here? They did it again, Jordan, and they did it this time even more brazenly, if you can imagine that, but I said this to the committee just now. Can you imagine that the IRS agent sat there writing, typing in her computer, word of God, relations with Israel, you're impacted by your faith, D equals Republican, like they were going to pull something on somebody? So we've issued a Freedom of Information Act demand on this and then go to court to find out who authorized this. Yeah, what always makes me nervous is who else got similar letters because was this a test letter that went out to 50 other groups?

It's hard to believe it wasn't. Because if it did, and you realize a lot of people get to say, okay, never mind, don't want to deal with this, and specifically the C4 groups, there's a way to apply for C4s. You don't have to go through this whole process. You can just let the IRS know we're operating this way. If you got any issues with us in the future, let us know. But then again, it takes away that whole idea that you've gotten full approval from the IRS, which you're voluntarily asking the IRS to do.

They come back this nasty way. I mean, under this position, which has been changed, but under this position, any group that had a religious specific to the Bible, so Christian group, would not be deemed eligible for taxative status because that means you must be Republicans. A number of the Congressmen and women asked that exact question. Was this targeting Christian groups or Christian organizations?

The truth of the matter, and Harry Hutchison may remember this, when we were doing the analysis for the litigation against the IRS, and we took on the IRS and won. Remember, we looked at what, during that period of time, did the IRS do with left-leaning organizations? And there was no systematic discrimination against groups left of center that were anything nearing right of center. And here's the thing, or conservative organizations, they even threw in, by mistake, an organization that had no political involvement.

It had to do with, I think, sex trafficking, human slavery, sex trafficking, but the name caught them and we helped represent them. They weren't even affiliated with a Tea Party organization and they were put in this, but we could not find any systematic moves on the left. But that's because the institutional bias in the IRS is so deep.

I think you're precisely correct. So what we have are unelected IRS officials acting as unelected guardians. Guardians of what we can think, what we can say, and what we can propose, which is a clear violation of the United States Constitution. But since they are unelected, and since they are often hidden deep within the bowels of the IRS, we don't know whose footprints or handprints are on the decision-making. But I think at the end of the day, we know who made the decision to go after conservative organizations and to go after Christian organizations.

It was President Biden. He unleashed the bureaucrats to do their best to restrain and restrict any opposition coming from what he would call the right. And so now he's basically saying that if you read the Bible, if you are a Bible-believing Christian, then you are a threat to our democracy. This is nonsense on steroids. What we're witnessing is a weaponizing of the IRS. And with that $80 billion that they're trying to put into this new bill they're forcing through Congress, it's a rearming of the IRS. And with the attempt to overturn the Lowest Learner Rule, it's an unleashing of the IRS. It's an attack on the American people. But even given the recent history of the IRS, Jay, it's an attack on conservatives.

It's an attack on Christians. Folks, we come back again. Second half hour coming up, more about the hearing, what is happening right now, legislation that was defeated that wanted to lift the idea that, well, this Lowest Learner Rule, let's remove it. And so we defeated that legislation. Now the IRS is telling the Congress we want $80 billion more, but they're still trying to utilize this targeting of specific American groups.

And it happens to be, under a Democrat President, it happens to be conservative-leaning Christian and religious organizations. So we come back, continue to talk to you about this. Take your calls at 1-800-684-3110 as well as play more from the hearing. Be right back on Secular. If not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today, ACLJ.org.

Keeping you informed and engaged. Now more than ever, this is Secular. We're just talking about this here, that this is not really highly complicated tax law, where you need hundreds of attorneys figuring out some deduction and whether or not this is the right way to move forward with the easement, the list goes on. It's not corporate world. That's where complex tax law does occur, where you've got to negotiate back and forth with the IRS, maybe for decades sometimes. But in this situation, it's targeting of individual American organizations, a specific provision of the tax code that allows us to come together and organize officially, so that we don't just organize haphazardly. We can organize official organizations that then can take in resources, provide insurance if they need to because they're going to hold events. That was a lot of our issues with Tea Party groups. They came to a point where they needed to rent buses. They didn't have insurance because they weren't official organizations. To go get insurance, you had to be in some kind of organization.

And the best way to do that and is cost effective is a non-profit if you're not trying to make this a for-profit entity. But take a listen, this is your opening. You talk about this really is not so much about the IRS tax code as it is the basic constitutional principles themselves.

Take a listen. Viewpoint discrimination by the government is unconstitutional in any form. And that's precisely what's taking place. My concern here, members, is there is a consent order in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. There was a subsequent settlement of millions of dollars to Tea Party organizations in a companion case that we did in Ohio.

Despite money and a consent decree, nothing prevented the Internal Revenue Service from doing this again. And I think this does not bode well for their capacity to understand the gravity of the harm they're doing to the Constitution and ultimately to the American people. But the fact that they put in writing that this group was engaging and utilizing the word of God, M as they call it, for the Tea Party Republican, is an outrage. And I'm thrilled that they got that.

Christians United got their Texas M status. But members of this committee, your committee is the Ways and Means Committee. This is neither the way nor the means upon which the IRS should be operating. It seems to me that there's just a lot of Jude, your lowest learners inside the IRS.

I think it's what Harry said also, though. I find it hard to believe that the revenue agent here was the one who wrote this by her or himself. It doesn't appear to me to be possible that you would put that kind of time and effort and come up with that legend of abbreviations, Word of God, Eagle Forum, they had all these different examples, and then put D equals Republican.

I want to think everybody that's listening to this broadcast right now, this is your government. An IRS agent said I'm going to be cute, I'm going to put D equals Republican. And I'm going to say that the Word of God is a basis upon which, your belief in the Word of God, is a basis upon which you are being denied your tax exempt status. And I'm going to put this in writing.

So I'm glad Christians United got their tax exemption. But I'll tell you what we're going to find out. Who did it, how did it happen, and who we're going to sue to find out that it doesn't happen again. Because we have a consent decree here, Andy, that says they can't do it. So they're violating the consent decree. That's right. Which means we can go back in.

That's right. As long as there is a consent judgment, a consent decree, a consent order, call it what you want, the IRS is bound by that. And that means we can go back to the U.S. District Judge who entered the order and say the order has been violated by the Internal Revenue Service and we want sanctions imposed. But as Stan said, they're trying to get rid of the lowest learner rule.

You can't get rid of the court decree, that's there. But they're trying to get rid of the lowest learner rule. Yeah, I mean Congress passed into law, President Trump signed into law section 122 of the Financial Services Appropriation Act which said you can't use the be on the lookout list anymore, Jay. Section 4501 of H.R.

1, which the Democrats are pushing for, it would repeal that provision. So they're throwing everything at the wall on this and we're going to have to fight it on all angles. Unbelievable. You can take your calls, your comments on Facebook, Periscope, YouTube, wherever you're watching. If you're watching the broadcast as well as places like Rumble and if you want to talk to us on the air, it's 1-800-684-3110 as it just came out of this congressional hearing live with you on the air. Again, that petition up at ACLJ.org, over 125,000 people signed to defeat Biden's IRS from targeting Christians. It's a real issue we're fighting on and testify before Congress on it.

Be right back. The challenges facing Americans are substantial. At a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack, it's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines protecting your freedoms, defending your rights, in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena.

And we have an exceptional track record of success. But here's the bottom line, we could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms. That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side.

If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today, ACLJ.org.

Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, Planned Parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.

Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. We've got more to above to talk about from the hearing as well and about the, of course, what happened here. Charles on Facebook writes, do Republicans have the numbers in Congress to stop the IRS on this?

That's interesting. Because then we're specifically in this hearing talking about the $80 billion IRS is requesting. We know things are right on the line now. I mean, it seems like the House Democrats could get through what they want usually, but that runs into a wall in the US Senate. Yeah, it does, Jordan.

I mean, it really depends which component of this you're talking about. But if you're talking about the $80 billion over 10 years that President Biden wants to send to the IRS, by the way, what a terrible time to send the IRS more money before they fix this targeting problem. But that's what the President wants to do. He's proposed it to Congress. And if you're focused just on that issue, Jordan, technically, the Democrats could move that with their own votes.

They've put it inside the reconciliation package. They have their own fight over this, by the way, it's supposed to be three and a half trillion dollars. That's too high for people like Joe Manchin. He's trying to negotiate it down.

But I would say this, though, don't don't make Joe Manchin into too much of a hero. Because what if what if that number comes down to, you know, $2 billion or two and a half billion dollars, but still inside that bill is $80 billion for the IRS without fixing these problems? Is that going to be acceptable to the American people? I would say no.

But to answer the question to Charles very concisely, if they can keep all of their members voting for the reconciliation bill, they could leave this provision in and the IRS could get $80 billion. You want to go ahead before we play another clip? Yeah, don't play another clip because I want to say something. I want to first thank our members at the ACLJ.

And let me tell you why. So we have this incredible facility where our media center is. And we're in an unbelievable studio.

You see it every day, five days a week, six days a week if you watch our Saturday broadcasts. This is just one of many studios we have. Jordan was here leading the team on radio, while at the same time I was a studio over appearing before the United States Congress.

And because of the pandemic, it has to be done remotely. But we could do it in such a professional way that your support enables us to appear before Congress, do a radio broadcast, have a hearing with Congress simultaneously while the radio broadcast is going on, and you're seeing clips live on the radio broadcast while the hearing was going on. Your support of the ACLJ made that possible. And I just want to say for everybody, for all of us on the set, for everybody behind the wall and behind the glass, thank you.

We could not have done it without you. And I was thinking about that today. I was sitting in this new set that we have developed that the team put together that is just a great set. Perfect for that kind of thing.

Just perfect. I mean, we're in a set right now that we did a Supreme Court argument, three Supreme Court arguments in, not too long ago. So the technology we've been able to produce and have is because of our support of our members. So I just want to say thank you before you play the clip.

Yes, this is another clip. This is with Congressman Nunes about the IRS and the $80 billion. The only reason you would need to double the size of the IRS is if you're planning on doing some things that they claim they're not going to do, but I believe they are going to do, which is to lower that threshold, requiring banks to lower that from $10,000 to $600, which is going to, in my estimation, they're going to just be able to go through everybody's records at all times. You're going to have the IRS breathing down our throats. What should Americans be looking for? What should Congress be looking for?

I think what we have to do is get behind just the letters, but to understand what they're actually thinking, and you talk about doubling the IRS, you're just going to double the problems. I'm holding in my hand a document we got in discovery in our federal court case. This is a letter, an email from Lois Lerner to some of her staff and also to the DOJ, the IRS dealing with the Department of Justice. She writes, I got a call today from the Director of Election Crimes Branch at DOJ.

I know him from contacts from my days there. He wanted to know who at the IRS the DOJ folks could talk to about Senator Whitehouse's idea at the hearing that DOJ could piece together false statement cases about applicants who lied on their 1024s, that's the tax-exempt form, saying they weren't planning on doing political activity and turning around and making it. Basically, if we could bring a case like this, that will make a real statement. The response she gets is to not only have the DOJ and the IRS involved, but the Federal Election Commission. What raised the alarm bells for me is that once we had the situation resolved several years ago in 2017, we had no problems. I cannot recall maybe one or two instances where there was an audit of nonprofit groups that we were able to handle very, very quickly. All of a sudden, this organization in Texas gets a letter drafted talking about the scriptures using this legend, and they had to go to and fortunately went to our good friends at the Liberty Institute to help them.

There you go. It just appears that there were a whole wave of people moved out of the IRS, fired or left in the Lerner era, which is not that long ago. This was not resolved until 2017, but it appears the animus is still very much there, Wes. This is animus towards religious people who might be conservatives. Let's shut them out of the process, which is exactly what C4s exist for, so you can be part of the process. It's violating their rights. It's a bureaucratic assault.

Let's be clear. It's a government assault on religion, and it's an attempt to do an end run around the Constitution, which forbids Congress not only from making a law respecting an establishment of religion, but from prohibiting the free exercise thereof. But these bureaucracies and these bureaucratic rules, unless they're challenged and changed, end up having the force of law, and the IRS is the most unregulated bureaucracy in Washington, D.C., and this is a governmental assault and a governmental attack on religion. The hearing today, these members of Congress are on top, but these are a lot of members of Congress who lived through this last time around, and some new members as well, but the IRS, again, it's like the boldness comes back.

You know the political system as well as anybody, worked it politically. They got caught last time and got in a lot of trouble. Even people on the left were saying this was outrageous. And then as soon as Joe Biden is sworn into office, as Harry said, it's like they're emboldened because they've got a cover now. That's what it seems like.

I think they have been unleashed, but I also think they have been working on these initiatives even during the Trump administration behind the scenes, and once they got the permission to go ahead, they were indeed ready to release their fire on virtually every conservative and every Christian organization. So I think at the end of the day, the lesson for us is we have to be eternally vigilant, particularly against the IRS, but also against other government institutions, no matter who is President of the United States. You know, there's a Yiddish expression, it's called chutzpah. You've got to have a lot of nerve to do what you did again, and this, Andy, was a lot of chutzpah.

Well, yeah, chutzpah is putting it mildly. But as Harry says, the left never sleeps. The left never sleeps. They're persistent. We have a victory in the United States District Court.

We get a consent decree, we get a judgment, and we get damages on behalf of one of our plaintiffs. And they just wait and bide their time, bide their time until Biden becomes President, and then they say, now let's just go at it again. They never give up, and therefore, we must never give up. Exactly. We must never sleep.

We must always be vigilant because the wolves are always at the door. But Jordan, it seems to me, following up with both Andy and Harry said, that they've just been waiting to do this. And gone by U.S. senators and members of Congress. Yeah, I mentioned the Tlaib thing during my hearing. So that's the latest one, you know, Rashida Tlaib going to Janet Yellen at Treasury and saying that pro-Israel groups need to lose their taxative status. And then we've seen members of the U.S. Senate put in these letters requested to the IRS, still to this day, to investigate conservatives and conservative organizations. And one of the most recent things was a favorable view towards Israel. That was going to be one of the things that they wanted the IRS to flag. But look, I would add one more thought to this, Jordan. I really think that one of the reasons that this same playbook came back again so quickly is exactly because of something that Jay said in his testimony.

It's because it's not a rogue agent. This is a top-down play. This is a play literally from the administration, from the White House. It's putting the same playbook back in place. This legend that Jay's been talking about, where they substitute letters for political parties or views, Jordan, that's the new bolo list. That is the new bolo list, even though the federal statute says you cannot do this, even though our consent order says you cannot do this.

They just tweaked it just a little bit to get around those requirements, and they put the same exact playbook back in play. And it happened quickly, Jordan, because it wasn't a rogue agent. It was someone from the top down saying this is how you're going to do it. You know it's not going to be some lone agent came up with that, Jordan. There's no way.

No, it doesn't happen that way. They're working with congressional staff. They're working with others at the IRS. They're working with DOJ.

We had an issue with it earlier. It was at DOJ, but inside the DOJ, FBI agents tried to get involved with our groups who were the ones being mistreated. And we cut the Department of Justice off. We said they were doing an investigation. Andy, you and I and Jordan made the call. And we said our participation is over with, because when we heard the questions they were asking, it became very clear they were not investigating the people that did the bad act.

They were doing what Lois Leonard taught them what she wanted to do, which is to set them up with some criminal case to scare people out of a political process. We should all be welcomed into regardless of our views. We've got a final segment coming up. We'll play more from the hearing as well. We have 100-684-3110 to talk to us on air. Our petition up at ACLJ.org with over 125,000 signatures. You can sign that as well at ACLJ.org. We'll be right back.

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ACLJ.org. Special Activity Reports, yep. In your business, you're spending that kind of money probably daily, if not multiple times a day for purchases for your company.

But I want you to take a listen to this exchange as well. How in the world could we trust IRS agents to do the right thing by looking at our bank accounts? And even if we could trust them, why in the heck would we let them into our bank accounts anyway? It's time to put a stop to this. It's time to burn it down. Mr. Sekulow, if you could make one or two comments on that, because I think this is Big Brother at its worst. We know about government abuse. We know that even warrant process, I mean, I lived this, you lived this in the last four years. I think about the FISA court, the fraud that was put on a court where they were getting warrants under a process where it required probable cause, but there's not a lawyer representing the other side.

A star chamber, basically, that whole FISA process. So now think about now the government getting access to everybody's bank records with no basis, no probable cause, just because of $600 transaction. Okay?

First of all, you asked a very important question. How do you trust the IRS agent that comes in to look at this? And here's my answer that I give every client every time I'm asked. Don't. Do not assume, we're from the government, we're here to help.

Assume the opposite. We're from the government, we have an agenda in this issue, get a lawyer. That's what I tell people, because when you allow investigation without probable cause, without search warrants, without judicial oversight, you are setting up the American people, and this is what this reconciliation bill does, for a draconian approach to typical business transactions of everyday Americans or personal transactions, or as was mentioned earlier, college scholarship funds or college 529 accounts.

Why in the world would the IRS need that information other than they can get it from the tax return if they think they have the basis upon which to conduct an audit legitimately, well then, establish the basis for that audit and conduct it within the rules and regulations. Alright, let's go right to the phones. Pauline in North Carolina on Line 1. Hey Pauline, welcome to Sekulow, you're on the air. Hi Mr. Sekulow, my question is, I appreciate the hearing. What is the end game for these hearings? Will there be a recommendation made from this panel to the entire Congress?

Yeah. What's the end game? There's a couple of provisions of HR 1 that Fan has mentioned that have Congress particularly concerned. It's all this money going to the Internal Revenue Service, it's the revocation of the lowest learner rule, and it's the $600 threshold that allows the IRS to then investigate individual citizens' financial transactions. So what you're doing by this hearing is highlighting if that's a problem. Now, in the House they probably, I'm assuming, Fan, they could probably get it through in the House, but I think we've got a real chance of killing this in the Senate.

Yeah, I do too Jay. I mean look, there's going to be phases to this and we've been honest with our listeners, the first phase of this is fairly defensive. I mean the move right now in Congress and from the White House is actually to give the IRS more money and more authority, so we're fighting against that. Now, I would tell the caller this, remember, we've got a wonderful consent order in place and current law is actually very strong on this, so if you can just defend those two positions, which is the goal for the Republicans on the Ways and Means Committee right now, you're actually in a pretty good place. I would maybe add one thought to that, Jay, and it goes back to the sound you just played about your exchange with Congressman Drew Ferguson from Georgia. I think there's a pretty big appetite among Republicans in both the House and the Senate to, if you can win on defense right now, to actually go the other direction. I mean it might be time to start taking down some of the tax code, getting to a simpler code where some of this abuse, the out of control agency, can start to be reined in. You've got to look at it with both phases, Jay. Yeah, but to do that you're going to have to have a House and a Senate that's willing, and a White House that's willing to sign it.

We don't have that now. So the question from the caller, Jordan, was the good one, is you highlight these things, you do the Freedom of Information Act litigation if necessary, which we are, so you get the information and you hold them accountable again. I think, you know, we should not forget we have a consent decree here.

So if that case would have come into us, we would handle that part a little bit differently. Yeah, if the Democrats had their way, they would reform the IRS into this aggressive kind of organization that would be, this is what they want the IRS to be doing. They don't make any mistake about that when you have the hearing, especially with the Senators who are a bit specific about kind of egging the IRS on to do this.

This is what they see as the right role, so that's why they wanted that repeal, they didn't get that, but they see the right role of the IRS as harassing conservatives. Yeah, no question about it. And I think, and Harry said this earlier, and I think it's right, Harry, they feel emboldened and it's not as if they were asleep at the switch the last four years.

Absolutely. So one of the things to keep in mind, particularly with respect to leftists, is that they never give up their commitment to ideology. And the ideology at the end of the day is anti-constitutional and anti-American. This is all about what Nietzsche calls the will to power. They want absolute control over virtually every transaction, every idea, every thought, everything you and I do in our daily lives.

And they are opposed at the end of the day to something that seems to them quite quaint, freedom. Yeah, but you know what's interesting here, and like I said, we didn't have, it wasn't our client, this Christians United, we're following up on it through FOIA, but we had a consent decree, a declaratory judgment consent decree that could have been enforced here. Of course, it could have been enforced. So it's not like we're without hope.

No, that's not. I don't want people to think there's nothing we can do here. I mean, we've got a decree signed by Judge Walton that ended this litigation that we could always go back and say, Judge, the IRS is violating this, do something about it.

Yeah, and so even if Congress doesn't do anything, we have the ability to utilize the courts because we've got the decree to do that. But you know, Wes, you're a pastor also, this is scary stuff for churches. Absolutely, scary stuff for Americans, it should be.

Yeah, it is. Because you look at the First Amendment, which deals with free speech and freedom of religion, but concerning this rule of examining bank accounts for $600 transactions, it's a violation of the Fifth Amendment, I think, you know? No, I think, listen, this is how it gets to your political donations, it gets to your church donations, it gets to, I mean, that's not even, that's not even like max out, not even close contributions that you can make to congressional candidates. I just made one recently, I mean, six times over, you would be, so every political donation you make, a lot of you who tithe regularly to your church could come about that, especially if you did it more monthly instead of like weekly. So then you have a large, so they're looking at every transaction you're having, not at the 10,000 plus level, but basically daily life. You could piece together who this person is, exactly, without ever seeing a picture of them, figure out where they live, figure out kind of what they spend their money on, where they spend their time, you know, what hobbies they have. Think about your hobbies. There's golf clubs that cost $600, a single club.

By a set of clubs, you're going to spend more than that, they know about your golf, they know where you spend your time. It just, it is a, talking about just a dangerous, dangerous road to go down in the United States of America, because we know, even without all of that, they're still abusive, and they still want to target conservatives. We will talk to you tomorrow. Remember that petition is up at ACLJ.org.

We'll talk to you tomorrow on Secular. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines, protecting your freedoms, defending your rights, in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today, ACLJ.org.