The following program is sponsored by What's Right, What's Left Ministries, and is responsible for its content. Portions of the following program may be pre-recorded. I am Pastor Ernie Sanders, the voice of the Christian resistance. Stay tuned. My radio broadcast: What's Right, What's Left is coming up right now.
Coming to you live from Independence, Ohio. Heard around the world every Monday through Friday. Pastor Sanders is always years ahead of the rest of the media, telling you exactly what they're covering up. This is What's Right, What's Left? I tune in every chance I get to hear exactly what's going on with the voice of the Christian resistance.
Unabashedly cutting through the rhetoric by exposing the hard topics facing our society and world. A lot of the other news media don't pick up the news items like he does. And bringing to light the enemies of freedom who are up to steal your rights, your children, and enslaving you. You really get the truth out. I can tune into your show and hear the unvarnished truth.
Thank you. This is What's Right, What's Left with Pastor Ernie Sanders? Good evening, and welcome to another edition of What's Right, What's Left: The Voice of the Christian Resistor. And this 20. sixth day of march twenty twenty six.
And tonight there were certain Prissy preachers uh that um They consider him seven miles a bad highway. They say, Don't rile, young style. He's a rebel. without with a cause. And that's our producer tonight, Young Style.
Hey, Style. Hey, Pastor, how are you? Hanging in here.
Okay. And um Big bad Leroy Brown would rather leave town than fool with Randy Barkley. Our elder Randy Barkley, he's a man of God. He's bold. And he may be an elder, but he's not old.
And you heard the cackle there, she is and the That is our studio marm. She's the keeper of the keys, especially to the women's bathroom. Little Lisa. Good evening, everyone. And he's a man of outstanding.
Well, a a man of s great, great stature A man who's been a pastor, a chaplain, a An author. And a good friend of mine for a couple centuries now. All right. Long time. Pastor Richard Lewis.
Welcome, everyone. Glad to be here. And tonight, We have our guest tonight, Dr. Elizabeth Gardner, is a Bishop.
Society of Apostolic Church Ministries. And uh she was ordained by the Assembly of God in 1978. and received a Doctorate of Theology in 2006. Pastor and teacher of Mess. Messiah remnant Jewish and Gentile congregations along uh with her husband Uh Bishop William Garrett.
About Bill Shaw. No, I'll get it right anyhow. Gardner. Anyhow Let me go on I I messed that all up. But our other guests tonight And it just disappeared off my phone.
Wait a minute. I'm gonna find it. No. Let me see because Aha, there it is. He is uh Gregory Robertson.
Practiced law for fifty-three years. Chief Consul with the IRS for six years in Washington DC and Los Angeles and Phoenix. personally witness IRS revenue officers Inappropriately ruined the lives of many taxpayers. I think we've all seen some of that, haven't we? Uh what in private practice in nineteen seventy nine and handled one thousand IRS collection cases.
And so with that We're going to get the rest of the story in here in just a minute, but Randy, we have a prayer request just called in and Would you go ahead and pr and pray? And before we do, folks All across the country, remember Much prayer, much power. and remember right now this lady needs your prayer. And all of us are going to need prayer at one time or another. And so Those who show mercy receive mercy.
So, right now is a great time to bow your head and pray along with Randy. Go ahead, Randy. Amen. Father God, we just come before you. Certainly, we just want to say thank you, first of all, that, Father God, you are sitting high, looking low, that, Father God, that you are hearing our prayers as your word says, Let us therefore come boldly into the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need.
And so, Father God, we just want to lift up Diana this evening, Father God, who has cancer, Lord God, and it is moved from the brain and other various parts of the body, Lord God, her kidneys, pelvis, and lungs. And so, Father God, we are asking you, Lord God, cancer is not above your name, it is not above your power. And we do believe the report of the Lord. We do believe that the arm of the Lord is not short, that it cannot save even in this situation, Lord God. And so, Father God, we lift up Diana before you, Father God, and we ask you to touch her body to heal it, Father.
God, we ask you, Father God, whatever the doctors are doing, Lord God, if there is something in the natural realm that she could take that would help to assist, Lord God, we pray that those doors would be open. But, Father God, we know that it is you, even behind the medication that works because the body is created by you, fearfully and wonderfully made. And we also ask that you would give not only her, but her family, Lord God, and even friends, Lord God, a peace that passes understanding because many times when sickness is there, it doesn't just affect the person, it affects family members as well who are concerned.
So, we ask that you would give them a peace as well. And, Father God, we just want to thank you, Father God. Give her peace in Jesus' name. Amen. All right, I want to make a correction.
That was Pastor Frederick Gardner. And uh you have to forgive me, my little computer was flicking on and off here.
So there we go. And with that. Uh Elizabeth. And um We're going to go into Uh here in t in Just a minute. Elizabeth and Greg.
to the Bible study. We're going to be in First Corinthians chapter six tonight. And so with that. Join us and feel free to jump in if you have a question or comment, jump right in at any time. And so With that let's start Pastor Richard.
Would you go ahead and let's take a verse at a time, all right? Sure. This is chapter 6 of 1 Corinthians. Uh there any Of you. having a matter against another.
Go to law before the unjust and not before the saints?
Okay, so let me ask you a question here. Uh, and these people that he's talking to, he's writing this letter And he's talking to the saints. Are these people that have been canonized, or are these people that are? The regular A church saints. These are just fellow Christians, brothers and sisters in Christ.
So.
So then, in order to be a saint, you don't have to be canonized, right? No organization has to. No, there's over 30 names that describe Christians in the Bible and saints is one of them.
Alrighty.
Well, the saints, there's four categories of saints mentioned in the Bible. We start out actually, the very first category of saints are angels. Angelic beings were mentioned. Then you had the Old Testament saints, the New Testament saints, and then the The Tribulation Saints, so those are the four categories of saints. And you know, what Paul was doing He was writing letters to live people.
He wasn't going to write a letter to dead people. Right. Go ahead to verse two. Do you know Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, Are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Well, when are the saints going to be judged? Because we're going to be judging the world starting with a specific time. And in fact, when is that going to be? Millennial. Millennials.
Millennial Kingdom, right? We're going to be. And we'll be doing that with what? Glorified bodies, won't we? Yes.
And uh, we'll have some power then, won't we? Yeah, yes, they won't fool with us then, will they? Absolutely not. And so Elizabeth Gregg, you guys just jump in if you have a question or comment. Don't be afraid to jump in.
Oh, I'm in I'm enjoying listening to it. Just go on. How much more things that pertain to this life? How are we going to have the ability to judge these angels? It'll come with the glorified bodies, won't it?
So when that when that power, the glorified bodies, we're going to have powers, I mean, like the angels. In fact, What What makes us superior to the angels? But We were created in the image of God. We were created in the image of God. That's what makes us superior to the angels.
Absolutely. Does that actually include? Satan himself? Yeah. 'Cause J Sat Satan was a fallen angel, so yes.
Absolutely. Alrighty.
Well, he'll be bound during that time, right? For a thousand years. Yeah. And so And then the other thing that sets us apart, too, is the fact that they say we have a song that the angels can't sing: We've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Amen.
Amen. Yes. Go ahead, Richard. having judgments of things pertaining to this life, Set them to judge Who are least esteemed in the church.
So, why would people say, Listen, Lisa Stevens means these are the babes, the the newest, the youngest Christians. In the church, that doesn't mean age-wise. I mean, you could be. seventy years old and be the youngest Christian in the church, okay. But the point he's making here Uh that that you're better off to have A babe, a Christian, someone who's a a newly uh born-again believer, to judge you, that that person is better qualified to justly than an un unsaved person who's been on the bench for forty years.
I mean Go ahead, Richard.
So better than like Bosberg, huh? In verse 5, he says, I speak to your shame. Is it so that they're Is not a wise man among you? No, no. Not one that shall be able to judge between his brother?
Why is that? Why does that apply here?
Now this. This really hits a nerve here because this is in Corinth, where the Greeks were. What did the Greeks pride themselves? They prided themselves on something particular. Every weekend, they'd be at the pavilion in the square.
Some new thing.
Some new thing.
They always wanted to know about something new. Knowledge. They would get up there and. Wisdom and uh Uh Paul kind of Apostle Paul thought, boy, these guys aren't so wise, you know? And so he's asking them, Is there not is not one wise man among you?
Okay, but go ahead. But brother brother go to law with brother? And that before the unbelieving? Boy, that uh that's exactly what's happening. You have you have professing Christians who get in arguments and they haul each other into court and guess who wins in court?
The judge and the lawyers. They always win. That's amen. Yeah, that's always the way it ends up, huh? Yeah, no way they sh they should be doing that.
Verse 7.
Now, therefore, there is utterly a fault among you. Because you go to law one with another Why do ye not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Well, yeah, he's telling you that you're better off to do that, right? Mm-hmm, than you are to go ahead and to drag each other before the heathen courts. Yep. Yeah. Go ahead, pick it up.
And defraud. And that your brother Know ye not That the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminates. nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers. Nor exhorters. Uh, shall inherit the kingdom of God. You just read the entire platform of the Democratic Party in this country. That's their platform today.
It really is. I mean, It's I mean, it's not funny. That is their platform. It's pathetic, but you're you're absolutely right. Then he finishes that with, uh, and such were some of you.
But ye are washed. But ye are sanctified. But ye are justified by the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Amen. And with that, Elizabeth, we're going to just jump over to you.
And tell the folks your story because we just did um Uh I would just hear this week talking about Your governor out there in California. is trying to confiscate the ties of the people and the church out there. And you're having a a similar problem there in Arizona, aren't you? Yes, we are. It's a really a personal Uh situation along with the church.
The church is being attacked by the RF.
Well, we got to do something about that for sure.
Okay, and this story is going coast to coast tonight, so. There are a lot of people out there listening, but Go ahead and tell us tell us what happened. Mm-hmm.
Well, what happened was, as you said, I am I was a pastor of the church. We had a church for since nineteen ninety three and we as we grew We changed our name. Uh to uh uh uh another name. Which meant more of a group called Betharam Ministries. And what we did, we bought property.
Under the name of Bethany Ministry, and I am a corporation soul.
Now we need to understand maybe So the audience would know what is a corporation soul. And Greg, are you on the line? Yes, I am.
Well, would you explain corporations all the legal part? Yes, as a one as a Wonderful example of history. In England, The church could not own land. They created a legal fiction, much like a corporation or a trust is a legal fiction. they created a concept called the corporation soul, and so that the bishop or the archbishop of the Church of England could be the titular head of this corporation soul, this Construct.
that then could own real estate because the church couldn't. And then as the Bishop or Archbishop. Retired to died. Then the new person became the embodiment of the corporation soul. And you fast forward that.
16 of the United States have statutes. that adopt the corporation sole, but the common law in all the rest of the states recognizes corporation soul here in all of our fifty states. And the Catholic Church, many churches. LDS Church. Use Corporation Seoul for most of their real estate holdings.
Why? Because it does not have to file reports. It's It's further away from government intrusion. than if you had a 501c3 organization. And so Elizabeth has been and is The you know name of the it's Elizabeth Gardner At Corporation Soul.
And so she's the personification of this entity that is. Owning title. to this property. And the property happens to be A combination property where half of it is a parsonage and half of it. Is the church with the baptistry, with the meeting room, with an business office?
And so that combination property has been held for. Ever since it was built in around 2003, the county has considered it exempt. Church property and therefore doesn't have to pay property tax because they see that it. was doing ministry, had a church function, and And it's recognized from the county again and again and again, each time the name changed. And it changed over Entitled from the Betharam Ministries over to uh the society of of of Uh yeah.
Christian ministries. And that has been the way for some time. It was never paid for. by Mrs. Gardner, Elizabeth Gardner, or her husband Rick.
It was paid for. by the tithes and offerings of those uh congregants. And they had a very nice opportunity to have Built it with good terms because the man who sold them the property. Gary deleted the financing so the church could afford it. That's that's kind of a encapsulation of how a corporation sole is and how Elizabeth came to be the corporation sole representative of what we call SACM.
Go ahead, Elizabeth. I passed her at I let me you know, we I passed her a church there that uh we're unre unregistered the last Thirty years ago, or maybe forty years ago, uh We were the only one that we knew. We belong to the UBF Unregistered Baptist Fellowship. We are not five oh one C three. We're an independent New Testament church.
And, um We you know, we go by Our tax status is comes right from the King James Bible, okay. But what you might want to explain to the people, because we've done that right now in our area. we've gone to probably the only unregistered church to I think there's about thirty now that are unregistered. and it's got to do with this radio programme here. because o over the years Uh you know, we've we've been on the air telling people why they do not want to be a five oh one C three and In the past I've had several uh folks that worked with the IRS, uh, who were a higher ups on the radio program, telling them why they did not want to be a five O one C three either.
But I just thought I'd put that in there. But go ahead, Elizabeth. Absolutely. Well, you are correct in that determination. A five hundred one C three has to file an annual form nine hundred ninety that declares what its property is, which gives the government an opportunity to look around and say, well, gee, is there some unrelated business income here that we want may want to tax?
When you don't register with the internal revenue, you don't become a 501c3. The IRS and Congress Recognizes the church does not have to file for taxative status, yet, people can make contributions to churches. And they are tax deductible just like they're tax deductible to a 501c3.
So you don't have to register with the IRS.
So when you do register A corporation Uh a corporation corpus corpus means non-living. And so a corporation is not that a non living creation of the state?
Well Every state has statutes now in our United States, and if you Uh incorporate in the state, that means you file articles of incorporation. And in many, many states, you have to file an annual report. almost all states make it less expensive for 501c3 organizations To uh comply with that. The cost is less But is there still? Usually an annual report.
To be in corporate compliance.
So, when you're filing that to the state, are you not saying for now? to say a a ministry that, you know, that, uh, you know, for you know, separate from the church itself. I don't have a problem with that, but But for the church Wouldn't you say if since if you file as a 501c3 to the state, So you're reporting to the State. Doesn't that make the State your head? Uh Uh No, well, the the the answer is The federal government determines 501c3 status, not the state.
Well, I mean that when I when I say the state, that means the government, yeah.
So then you're you're acknowledging since you're filing your federal government. Right. The federal government has a right to take away your 501c three Status, and therefore, your assets and your income become subject to collection and taxability.
So That means you've put them as your head, since you're reporting to them and they have authority over you. The church is the body of Christ and only Christ is the head of the church. But uh That's reality.
Okay, but go ahead and and uh I'm not gonna tell tell you 'cause that was your job as an IRS agent.
Okay, let me let me uh kind of jump in here, if I may, Elizabeth, and talk about what happened. The Gardners, unfortunately, had the misfortune of having an IRS come in and say they owed some taxes in the early two thousands. And while they disagreed vehemently that they ever owed anything, it was very hard for them to ever. get loose of the a claim of the IRS. They went to court in around two thousand nine.
The decision wasn't made. And for years later, Judge Jacobs of the United States Tax Court Although he acted like and told them he everything was going to be okay. Years later, he kind of forgot that. and said, oh, the gardeners owe taxes. And that was about in 2014.
At that point. Um The gardeners We're within a few years of retirement. I think, Elizabeth, if I may say that you're in your 80s now. Greg, sorry to interrupt you. And no, we weren't in retirement then.
We we were continuing uh church. All the time. We had fellowships in nineteen twenty nineteen with COVID. Came in, we went on the Zoom because nobody was meeting. And so I was still very much in the ministry all the time.
And I've never left the ministry. I still live in the ministry. But what happened is in 2004. Elizabeth, I have to jump in for just a minute. We're going to a hard break.
Be right back, right after this.
So hang in there. We'll be right back. Yeah. Yeah. I had this crazy dream.
About some folks who love this country, who all began to dream the same dream. And when the morning came There arose across this nation people thinking one and the same. And they awoke to find their freedoms and all their liberties had gradually been taken away. And when they realize the danger to their posterity are those patriotic people. You say We want this country.
We ain't just joking, Jack. We want our liberty and our dignity and our freedoms and our rights restored. We want this country back. She's been driven way off track. We're wide awake and we're madder than hell now.
And we ain't gonna take it anymore. No, we're not gonna take it anymore. Remember golden days when the stars and stripes forever symbolized her glorious name? America. But now it's all been changed And when we gaze upon old glory, it's hard to fight back feelings of shame.
Um Yeah. Worm it up with lying politicians and greedy corporations who have sold us out time and again. And we're sick and tired of sending our soldiers off to wars that we were never meant to win. We want this country back. We ain't just joking jack.
We want our liberty. And our dignity. And our freedoms and our rights restore She's been driven way off track. We're wide awake and we're madder than hell now. And we ain't gonna take it anymore.
No, we're not gonna take it anymore. Now we know our cause is right and our victory's on the way. And we won't give up the fight till we hear 200 million say. We Want this country back. We ain't just joking, Jack.
We want our liberty and our dignity. And our freedoms and our rights with the word we What this country? And we ain't taking Anymore back. We're wide awake and we're madder than hell night. And we ain't gonna take it anymore.
No, we're not gonna take it anymore. That's right, we're not gonna take it anymore. We said we're not gonna take it anymore. That's right, we're not gonna take it anymore. We said we're not gonna take it anymore.
That's right, we're not gonna take it anymore. We're not gonna take it anymore. And either is our guests here tonight. They're here telling us. what they're gonna do about it.
And uh so With that we're going to continue. Uh we have a Go ahead, folks. Yeah, let me finish the part I wanted to I think it'll be poignant. And that is to say the Internal Revenue Service assigned an IRS collection officer, called her Revenue Officer, a lady, down in Tucson, Arizona, 180 miles from where the gardeners live and where the SATM church property is. He never really went up to the property.
But she knew that if she applied pressure like a lean or a levy, that uh sometimes uh uh people figure out how to pay. And she had no training in what A search. Uh ears. uh as a collector. All she knew is that if she pushed Sometimes money shows up.
And when she makes decisions, Like Oh, I'll just ignore that the church is a separate entity. which is what she did. She l put a lien on the church real estate and she levied the church bank accounts. They had credit union accounts. They had a donation that they received from another pastor that had been in an account for some time.
It was fifty thousand.
So the total monies was around seventy some thousand dollars. She levied that and she put a lien on their property, the church property. And that then caused Elizabeth Gardner and Rick Gardner. And in the name of the church, to file a lawsuit in federal district court. to undo The lean against the church house and property, the church ministry.
and against the account. It then uh was assigned to uh judge puituma who used to be The United States attorney under the Obama administration. for the state of Arizona prosecuting uh cases prosecuting uh individuals. And Judge Huituma. Uh Saw that the federal government, the Department of Justice, filed a motion for summary judgment.
Saying that The gardeners and the church were one and the same. The church was just a nominee of the gardeners. And Jatsui Tuma. Ruled. on a motion for summary judgment without letting this go to a jury trial.
That it was okay for this revenue officer to have. taken the property and taken the accounts. That was appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, a three judge panel. Uh listen to the arguments. After a few months, there was a decision.
It was a two-to-one decision. against SACM, the church One judge. The only A parent Christian. in the organization in the three judge panel. Yeah.
The Church deserved a day in court and an opportunity for a jury to listen to the story because there were many. controverted facts, and there should be never a motion for a suggestion of judgment when there are legitimate relevant factual disputes. The other two judges just Uh as again a uh Obama appointees Um Uh who Or fairly liberal and not very friendly to Christians, just blew past it. We have a wonderful decision as a dissenting decision from Bumate. And we, when we got that decision, Then Elizabeth worked diligently to prepare and write.
A writ of certiori. And I helped edit it to go to the United States Supreme Court to please ask for it to pick up this case. and reverse the Ninth Circuit.
Now It's very, very hard because there are literally thousands of cases each year that. Or attempt to go up to the United States Supreme Court. And Uh We didn't have a conflicted within circuits, but we did have a legitimate religious freedom and free exercise of religion. uh uh a claim Because this not only affects this church, it affects Oh. Non-registered Church organizations.
Where the internal revenue, just as this blady revenue officer did, said. I I I don't care. You know, if some minister owes something, I'm going to take church property as if that minister. debts have to be paid by church property. And that was the problem that we faced and we still face today.
And and Elizabeth has just pinned. A letter to the uh Uh uh President Trump at the Office of Faith Uh Tell me the name of the organization. Take it away from here now, Elizabeth. I've spoken enough. That's okay.
Well, I appreciate you uh explaining it because we need the uh the judicial part of this whole thing too. But we have what I want to what I want to say that we've always been a church. We've we've they they accused us. We changed the name of the church From Betharam Ministries to Church Restoration Ministries. And the reason why we changed the name is because.
Uh we have be have started a Jewish and dentile turns together. And so it was always just a name change. It's and but the IOS said That It was we sold this the the methorab industries to to church restoration, which is not true. And you know, uh a church uh A church can transfer ministry property to another church without consideration. And in this the church can transfer a ministry property to another church without consideration.
Uh it is permissible. Under certain legal frameworks, particularly in both churches, they are recognized as a non-profit organization. and they transfer their terrible compasses. But we did not transfer uh our property. We just changed our name.
And so there was there was no uh transportation, transfer transfer Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the government said that wi it went to another uh entity, which is my truth. And so we had them issued a fight. But, you know.
So then that's why we when we got this, this really it happened But how we didn't even know we never had anyone, any IRS documents sent to us. No, nothing. All of a sudden we were Shopping for the church. And when I uh tried to pay, Uh Oh, they said their card is is no good. I said, What?
And we had plenty of money in the account, so I s I s so I had to leave all all the the list of groceries for our Uh Shabbat. dinner. But anyhow, we went directly to the bank. And uh, we knew the bank manager well 'cause we were there all the time and We saw her and we said, what's wrong? She said, well, there shouldn't be anything wrong with your account.
And so she said, Let me check.
So she called the main office, the head office, and they said, we need to call SIRS. And she she quit, she says, Elizabeth, I never heard anything like this. The IRS coming against churches and their money? And so She said, You have to contact the IRS.
So then after that, about a week later, We we get um Uh documents saying that they're that they are going to seize the the prop the property and the and the ch and the monies, the donational money from the church. And I said, Whoa.
So I said, we did we I said, you know what, we we gotta fall off suit. What are we gonna do?
So we filed a uh I fil I filed the lawsuit and by um Good morning. The name of the ministry is me as the corporation soul. Uh you know the corporation soul is uh a office of the church, a high office. And uh usually bishop and FAM.
So I thought that the court the court would not recognize. The individual, myself, Elizabeth, and so they said, You have to get an attorney. 'Cause I was filming this on my own.
So then I searched and searched for Uh someone nobody none of the attorneys understood corporation sole and Uh so finally just one attorney. Uh said, I know someone that can help you. And so here comes Greg. And so he's been with us ever since. And I say it was, and so we start working together on this.
And we found a quiet title Run for living food. because they wrongfully took our donational account, plus they put a lien on the property with seizure. And so we've been as Greg was saying, we've been fighting this ever since. And this is Um really a bad situation. because it'll not only affect us, it's uh it it could it's a broad implications For other characters.
I mean, it just doesn't affect us. If they could do this, and they did. Uh when we went to the Supreme Court Uh they ordered the IRS to respo to respond to our petition. And then what happened is the um Assist Solicitor General, who is the attorney for IRS. He waived his right to file a response to the petition in the case.
And today we still don't know why. But what happened is Then we waited and the the Supreme Court Rude. Uh Against us. that you know they weren't going to take the case. They had taken it at first and they didn't take the case.
So here we stand Uh in in the shadows. Uh, and we don't know what to do.
So the only thing I thought to do was to write a letter to President Trump because he he's very strong in his uh thinking as to the face. based initiative And we're still waiting to see if he will answer us. Because we we know this ruling. Uh it will send a president. Regarding tax liability and property rights, of all religious organizations, especially churches.
They could what they could do, there's not any theory.
Well we gotta understand what it's nominee is. Uh it's saying that um It's a nominee holds the property for the taxpayer to retain benefit. uh and and use and control the assets. In other words, they're saying That we There there is no the the there is no Ministry, there is no church, there is no religious society. It's it's Elizabeth and Rick Gardner.
Which is not true because Rick is not even Part of this Oh. He is by being a mini he's a pastor in musical ministry, has musical ministry in the whole part, but he's not the corpse soul. There's only one corporation soul, and I was elected to be the corporation soul of the society because of my uh religious doctrines, etcetera. And so here we are, and I were especially worried about. Uh how it's going to embodied similar actions against other churches, potentially leading to increased our scrutiny and financial burdens.
Uh alternatives. And so we're hoping that this call will alert churches To be on guard and and what's going on because they could the IRS could come against any church. And say, well, the pastor is a nominee. This is really not a church. He's using this as a fraud.
uh to hold his money and uh so so he don't have to pay taxes. Which which is not true. But they can they can establish this and s and bring a lawsuit against the church. And that's here, the church. Uh is in in a lawsuit with it.
I mean, it could uh signal a a trend to diminish protections for the religious entities, raising concerns about the autonomy of the churches in legal matters. I mean, it's this is a very serious thing that happened to us. And we want to help make sure other churches understand this because of the precedence of this case. They it they IRS has authority. to go after any church it wants to.
and take all its money. But you know, without even notice any any notice of, um Uh What is that called, Greg, that they send out? You're talking about the taxpayer Bill of Rights potentially is where they Without any uh need for research or approval Can call the church a nominee of a minister. If in fact the church seems to support that minister by a parishioner's allowance. Or a stipend or transportation or other benefits, they'll say, oh, well, that's just too close.
It looks like there's no division between the minister and the church organization. Therefore, we'll just call the church property the minister's property. And uh we we found a very very nice case. called the uh the city of uh San Luis Obispo. versus uh a gentleman.
And they the California court there. Correctly determined that the debts of a minister or pastor. Cannot become a debt of the church. in which he ministers. And so we tried to get the federal court to look at this California case.
out of the township of San Luis Obispo. As a good model, well, Judge Bumate of the Ninth Circuit understood it, but the other judges just. Didn't even want to bother. uh dealing with Uh a a church. or recognize or give credence.
to this particular uh Christian organization.
Well, at the oral argument, their discussions are very interesting. The Bomite judges Greg is talking about. At the at least the uh the uh the nine circus gave us an oral argument. And that this argument was very interesting. And we thought for sure that we would win the case at that time because the questions he was asking the IRS attorney and how he answered is very enlightening.
One of the question was, can you describe the government's position, what the difference between a corps sold and a nominee is? Are they the same thing in the government's view? And the answer was No, a corporate soul is the same as any other entity, and that's not true. The corporation soul is not the same as any other form of entity. It it is a separate religious for the for the church only.
And it's for the uh office of the church to governs the church. and has authority over all things. And so. He answered incorrectly. And he said, he said, it's a fine, it's fine in theory.
which means philosophy. But in this case, it's used for the gardener's money and property. In other words, he's They accuse us. And um uh this that it's not really a truth a church. They keep he called it a fraud in fact.
And uh it's so it's just them, and there's no congregation and never proved it. And you know well there is uh the IRS seventeen eight um 18 seventeen. I can't remember right now the the exact code. Uh Greg, do you remember what it is? Seventy eight eleven, I think it is.
But anyhow, it's a they have to notify you, they have to the high commissioner of the IRS has to uh contact the church and and and investigate it and find out if it's um doing any outside business or if there's uh s s something going on with the church. They never did this. They had they didn't contact the church whatsoever. They just Took the took the money with anybody knowing it. And first of all, in a ruling of the IRS, they have to notify notice of levy.
That's what I'm trying to think of. Then a nose of levy. That this is going to happen. But we never received anything like that till after everything after they ceased. of our donations, our bank account.
And uh put a lean in uh with with uh uh to um Take the turkey. Afterwards, And so he said, you know, they're saying that there is no church, never was here, never seen the parsons, never seen the church. But they just said it on their own.
Now if they could do it to us, How many other churches, especially small churches, they can do this to without even notifying you? And so he was, and he asked the question: what are the facts proving that, according to the government, SACM, which means Society of Apostolic Church Ministries. Is not a legitimate religion, therefore, all your facts indicate that it could be a nominee. And the IRS answered, no, he hesitated. And he said it could be a legitimate religion, but that's not what the case is about.
It's about who owns the property. Claim to be churches, and that the Bishop Gardner is supposed to be the tiddler head, and but it's not.
Now, who would they to say that I'm not the Tiddlerhead? Of the organization. We have when we started out over 145 pastors and ministries and missionaries and evangelists, et cetera. And and who is he to say that it's not real? And he said, it's flawed in this case.
They could choose to think you could Think um what against us is said it's a fraud. Uh and they said that uh the SAM SACM checking account was depleted because the gardeners used the money for themselves. Yeah. And there's no proof. They have n they never gave any kind of proof of anything, have they, Craig?
No, they haven't. And as a matter of fact, Rick is not a signatory on it, and the levy went against Rick. Gardner, Frederick Gardner. uh as if he uh was the owner of the account He's not even at the time the levy was there, he wasn't even a signatory on it. You have a lady in the state of Kansas.
Who is the church secretary? And she is the administrator and a signer on almost every check that the church does, and yet this court just paid no attention to that. And we made lots of arguments but it fell on uh ears that didn't care. And you know that The thing is. How how could um the IRS or government or even anybody sees a bank account when they're not even on the account.
And we have a letter from the bank stating that Rick was never a member of the of the the bank and he never was on the account. And so they and they that they can do this. And you think about it, they can do this. How many other churches could they come against and not even know because uh what's happening? And all of a sudden their money's gone and their church is uh seized, they're uh put a lien on.
This is a very serious thing that's happening. And if we allow this to happen, Now it's going to explode because once you give the IRS Oh and she'll take over a mile. to for their own purpose. And so we really Uh or Looking at this. not only for ourselves because w we we have done nothing.
We have proof, we have affidavits, we have people that attend church that that confess and even we even send affidavits to the court With affidavits saying that they're a member of the IRS and or they're one of the elders and that the the affidavits of membership. I mean, everything. We had pictures of baptismal and everything, but They're saying we're not a church. It's a fraud. Yeah, they they they they just said w we we we Um blur the lines because Uh this The Society of Apostolic Christian Ministries.
uh is called Elizabeth Gardner of of If the bishop Of the Society of Apostolic Christian Ministers, because her name was on it, they just decided: oh, it's hers. And it doesn't it's not a separate distinct entity. Very different from what the county and the state government of Arizona. uh did in recognizing it as Tax exempt church property. very different uh audience.
But again, we had liberal judges. Uh Democrats. Uh that that the appointed by Democratic administrations. that uh or and have Proven to be not favorable and not friendly from Lois Lerner. Through the entire Obama administration, where Obama said, you know, they cling to their guns and their religion.
I'm gonna have to jump in. We're coming up to a break here. When we come back from the break, we'll take some f questions. We'll be right back. After this, so don't go away.
A lot more to come. Be right back. Thank you for listening to What's Right, What's Left, the voice of the Christian Resistance. To support this ministry, head to wrwl.org. That's wrwl.org.
Mail your donations to What's Right, What's Left Ministries. 14781 Sperry Road, Newberry, Ohio, 44065. If you missed part of tonight's program, you can check out the podcast at thewordcleveland.com. The wordcleveland.com. Once again, thank you for listening and supporting What's Right, What's Left Ministries, the voice of the Christian Resistance.
Stay tuned, the second hour is coming up next. And I will get a ball.
