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Atlantic Coast Conference Grant of Rights and West Va. vs The EPA

Outlaw Lawyer / Josh Whitaker & Joe Hamer
The Truth Network Radio
July 15, 2022 5:00 pm

Atlantic Coast Conference Grant of Rights and West Va. vs The EPA

Outlaw Lawyer / Josh Whitaker & Joe Hamer

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July 15, 2022 5:00 pm

On this edition of The Outlaw Lawyers Attorneys Josh Whitaker & Joe Hamer discuss EPA mandates and existing power plants, West Va. vs the EPA. The Atlantic Coast Conference has existed since 1953, but how much longer will the schools stay together? Rumors abound concerning an expanding SEC conference and several ACC schools are prime targets. Josh and Joe pour over the ACC Grant of Rights and discuss. Listener Questions wrap up this episode of the Outlaw Lawyer.

If you are facing a legal situation and have questions

call Whitaker & Hamer 800-659-1186.

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Coming up on this week's Outlaw Lawyer, Josh and Joe remote in to discuss the law and how it affects everything around us. And as always, Josh and Joe tackle burning legal questions such as, can the EPA mandate carbon emissions from existing power plants?

What is the over or under on the number of pages of the ACC grant of rights document holding the conference together? Is North Carolina a race or nota state when it comes to real estate closings? That's all coming up next, right here on the show. On the Outlaw Lawyer and now Outlaw Lawyer. Welcome in to the Outlaw Lawyers. Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer Law Firm are your hosts. They're practicing attorneys here in North Carolina.

They have offices conveniently located in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina and Gastonia. I'm Morgan Patrick. We talk a legalese.

I'm a consumer advocate. I play referee between Josh and Joe. It's all about always a very interesting conversation.

We have a little fun along the way. So this week, we're going to get into a number of things. But first, guys, let's just talk about, hey, I saw Josh last week.

I haven't seen Joe and it seems like a month. But how you guys doing? Well, Morgan, I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. Glad to be with you, Joseph.

You're you're up and around doing good. Guys, I was I spent some time I had the kids last night. Wife was at the they're not the Dixie Chicks anymore, right? I guess they're the Chicks.

Yeah, just the Chicks. Just I don't like that. I don't I don't like when people change names, even if there's a good reason.

You're like, if I meet you, and you tell me what your name is, or your band's name, or your firm's name, or whatever it is, that's just it the rest of my life. That's what you know, you can tell me it changed. There might be a good reason for changing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not subscribing to your new, uh, your new name.

But anyway, so it was me and the boys. And I started watching these James Webb space telescope pictures just started coming through. I guess it's up and running and it's reporting back and they're getting some pics mind blowing. Do you guys see those? I have not seen them yet.

I think I saw one blurb on Instagram, but I have not investigated, but it sounds like it's going to be a pretty good, uh, watch when I do get to. I haven't seen it. I was busy. Uh, I was busy watching YouTube videos of chicks in preparation for the big concert.

So what stood out of the concert? No, man, come on. No.

Where are they even performing at? I don't know. Where are, you know, they were, yeah, they were out there. They're out there.

So speaking of names, speaking of names, that's another one. Exactly. You're right.

A hundred percent. What is it? What is it now? A sponsor wise is like coastal federal or something. That sounds right. It didn't coastal federal used to sponsor cocoa booth too. Like in that, like I get real confused.

Obviously it works, right? It's changed a lot. We can't remember who sponsors the venue. So obviously they spent some good money there. I'll tell you what I, what I, one reason I would not be there. And that's to see the chicks. And even if they were still the Dixie chicks, I, I don't think that's what I'm going to make it to ever. I have been into it. I haven't been to a Dixie chicks concert, uh, in my life. It wasn't the worst thing I've ever seen.

I've been to some bad concerts and it was not, uh, it was not that bad, but I was not there last night. I was home with the boys, uh, watching the Holy moly finale and looking at these, uh, these telescope picks, but man, these things are like mind boggling, you know, they just had this one pick and you'll see it if you haven't, it's all over the place, but it's just this small fraction, uh, this small piece of the sky. It's like a picture of, and it's just filled with all these galaxies. It's like real star Wars, the star Trek ish, you know, it's just all these galaxies, but like we can't, I can't even comprehend the picture when I look at it.

I was trying to show my kids, you can't fathom it, man. You start thinking about the vastness of space and, you know, you've got, you think about all of these galaxies, they have these, you know, super massive stars that are their sons. And then you've got, you know, countless black holes, which, you know, scientists have said that within each of those, there could be, you know, expanses that are even that we can't even comprehend. And you just get into like the infinite nature of, you know, space. And it really starts to make your mind kind of fold in on itself, man. It's very difficult to conceptualize.

Um, so the final frontier guys, it's the final frontier. Well, that's what I was just staring at this picture and I kept kind of blowing it up, you know, and, and I think the, I don't know if it was the scientist who was, who was posting this picture or if it was somebody else's comment, but they said this, this is comparable to, you know, the, the section of space we're looking at is comparable to, uh, like if you were taking a grain of sand and holding it out, you know, fully your arm fully stretched in front of you, that's like the cross section of the sky we're looking at. And then you, like, I, I felt like I was a guy from like the 1650s, like seeing it, you know, I just didn't have the capacity to understand what I was looking at, but it was, you know, they had a picture of like a Nebula and it was crazy.

It's crazy. I can't even, but anyway, I was trying to tell my kids like, this is one of the crazy, I mean, honestly, if you think about things that, that you've seen as an adult that like move you, like maybe you saw like a really good sunset or the moon was really close or something, and you're at the beach, you know, seeing a picture or a scene from nature that like moves you to think about how inconsequential your existence is. Like, this was that picture for me.

I was like, Oh my God, I've never seen anything like that. Kids didn't care. They looked at it. I was going to say, what'd your kids, what'd your kids say?

Are you making popcorn, dad? They gave me like a courtesy, like, Oh, that is interesting. I was like, how's that not interesting? I understand, you know, if I was like, Oh, I just, I just pulled up NPR on Instagram and I'm looking at the picture. Holy cow. Yeah. It's not like I was trying to make them watch Raiders of the Lost Ark or, you know, some, some movie that I liked as a kid, you know, like, I want to hear more stories about your kids patronizing you. That was fantastic.

Oh, dad. They were very nice about it. It wasn't their normal, you know, they're polite. Yeah. They could tell I was very moved by these pictures.

They know the right way to crush your hopes and dreams. They're still mad at me because we, Thor's been out for what, like five days and we haven't seen it yet. So we gotta, we gotta get on that. You guys seen Thor yet? No, no, I've seen Thor.

I've seen, Oh, don't, don't spoil it, but it looks different. Yeah, I was. Oh man. You know, it was okay. A lot of good ideas, a lot of good ideas, a lot of good beats. There's a good movie in there somewhere, a really good one, but it just, for some reason for me, it just wasn't cohesive.

It seemed like it, I don't know, man. It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what didn't do it for me because I like, you know, the collective of ideas, you separate them out. There's a lot of good ones in there. A lot of good characters, Christian Bell's great as the villain.

But it's, it's like the narrative doesn't, it's kind of jumbled and it kind of jumps. It just wasn't, it didn't do it for me. It wasn't bad.

Joe, I'm glad you didn't crush Josh's dreams of Thor. I'm going to watch it. I'm going to watch it no matter what. It's worth, it's worth seeing, like, it's not like you see it and you're just like, yeah, why did I come see this?

I mean, there's a, there's a purpose to seeing it. It's, it's entertaining, but at the same time, like, I think you'll see what I'm saying, Josh, like it missed being really, really good. And I can't say why it missed being really, really good.

It's just like, it just doesn't, the sum of its parts is not as, is not, it doesn't add up to be as good as like the individual ideas, I guess is what I'm trying. I was a big comic book kid. I read a bunch of comic books growing up and I didn't read them for a while, but the kids, my kids, my boys kind of got into them.

So that's a good excuse for me to have it. But anyway, read them again, but I follow a lot of comic book artists and, and people write the stories, writers and stuff. And they, they, they all liked the movie, but they said, this is like a 20 year storyline. This is like 20 years of Thor storylines being crammed into one, two hour movie. So that, that might be why it's so disjointed because they were trying to get so much in there, maybe. Well, I don't know that that's the, it doesn't seem like it's overstuffed, man.

It almost seems like it's understuffed. And so apparently I said, I read that it was originally four hours long. The original cut was a four hour cut. And so now I will say this, Joshua, we, uh, I went and saw the movie at there's, there's a new theater in that, uh, Fenton area of, uh, Cary, very nice area. I'm not gonna wait. Theater got a lot of potential, very new, got a lot of kinks to work out too.

So I ordered food and I waited probably 35 minutes for that food. And I missed eight minutes at the beginning of the movie. So that could contribute to my sense of it not really coming together, but a lot of great things, man, Russell Crowe makes a cameo appearance.

He's fantastic. Is that, is that, yeah, I think that's disclosed. I don't think that's a spoiler. I didn't say who he was, but I think that's been disclosed.

I mean, people knew he was in the movie. Josh, come on. All right. I want to throw it out there. The, um, and then I'm kind of late to this too. This was something else that came up this week. I always think about when we sit down to talk, some things that like I went down a rabbit hole on this week. And one of the things I went down a rabbit hole on is there's this, uh, there's a Twitter account. You guys might already know about this.

I don't know. It might be old and listeners might already know about this. There's a Twitter account that talks about, um, uh, televangelists, right?

So it's preachers or, you know, people who are doing stuff for a church and it looks at what they're wearing and their shoes and they tell you what that cost. Um, and I'm presenting that without comment, just in case the listener is interested in it. I'm not, I'm not saying that's right or wrong, you know, but it's, it's, it's interesting as I often say. I'm interested in your comment, man.

I'm not going to go look, but I definitely want you to, I want you to elaborate on it. So you're saying these folks are wearing some real expensive shoes there. Yes. That's what he's saying. Yeah. Yeah. How are you going to preach about the Lord?

If you're not fresh to death on your feet, Joshua. Well, I went down that. I went down this rabbit hole in this prosperity gospel every now and then I'll find a Twitter account or I'll see something in a newspaper or, uh, and I'll go down this rabbit hole. And, uh, but yeah, man, these guys got these like $3,000 shoes and they're, they're out there, you know, preaching to you about, uh, whatever. And, and again, whatever your religious affiliation may be, or, you know, here, we're not here to judge or take a side. I just found it off putting, um, you know, and maybe, maybe we kind of already knew that they already, I just did, I guess I'd never put that together. And I found this Twitter account and it seems like a pretty seemingly innocent Twitter account, but it, it sent me down a rabbit hole, gave me a lot of stuff to think about, you know, I still want elaboration, man, but maybe that's a, that's another, another day. Well, I think I get where you're going with this.

Yeah. Well, some of the mega churches, um, even in this area, um, the, the main people are getting paid astronomically well. Well, you know, there's a, there was a story not too long ago. This just made me think about, there was a story, uh, it was Joel Osteen out where his, uh, area is or his church and his house wasn't, there were some contractors doing work in this house and, uh, they had to knock down a wall or something. They found like 80 grand in this wall. And, and the story was how good of people they were. They found it and they didn't take it right.

They gave it back. And so they, we found this $80,000 in your wall. And that was, it was like a feel good story, but my, I was like, why is 80 grand in this wall? You know, that was money in the wall.

I was like, somebody starts beating on some walls, man. I didn't know I was looking in the wrong place for treasure, but, uh, but, uh, you ever check out righteous gemstones, Josh, did we, we talk about this year? I saw the first, I saw the first season. It was very good. I have not ever watched season two though. Uh, second season is much better in my opinion, much better, huh?

Yeah. I think it's much, I think it came into its own as a show in that second season. It's a good cast.

That's a good cast. Um, well, Morgan Joseph, we've talked, uh, a couple of weeks, it seems like about Supreme court decisions, uh, right to privacy, abortion, second amendment. And so, uh, I didn't want to talk about that at this show.

I wanted to mix it up a little bit. So there was another really big Supreme court case that came down in the past couple of weeks that we haven't gotten a chance to go back to. And that's the West Virginia, uh, versus EPA case. And so we'll talk about that today. Last week I mentioned, I wanted to read the ACC grant of rights. That's been in the news lately, the ACC possibly maybe losing a team, mega conferences, that kind of thing. And so a couple of media outlets last week, all kind of uploaded, got a copy.

Um, and it's, uh, it's underwhelming. So we'll talk about that though. And then we got listener questions. So we got a couple of listener questions at the end of the show today.

All right. Well, we got a lot on the program, the outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer and practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. They have offices conveniently located Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, and Gastonia.

If you're facing a legal situation, you've got questions. I've got a phone number for you. 800-659-1186.

That's 800-659-1186. Just leave your contact information briefly. What that call is about an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. You can always email your questions to the show and we'll use them like we are today.

And we'll answer them for you. Questions at the outlaw And again, we'll be, we'll change the names to protect the innocent questions at the outlaw and always check out the website, the outlaw

When we come back, we'll talk West Virginia versus the EPA. That's all coming up next on the outlaw lawyers. The outlaw lawyers, your hosts are Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Offices conveniently located for you, Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, and Gastonia. If you're facing a legal situation and you have questions, I've got a phone number for you and you can get some answers. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact info briefly. What the call is about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch and you can email your question to the show as well. Questions at the outlaw Gentlemen, West Virginia versus the EPA. So, Joe, we talked about this one a while back. We talked about this one a while back when they had oral arguments during the session and the opinion came down right on the heels of the Dodd case, the abortion case and all the other stuff that was happening.

So, we really didn't get a chance to go back to it. Do you remember when we talked about this case? Joe Hamer Man, I've got that elephant brain.

I can really recall things most of the time, especially when it comes to my favorite hobby, which is doing the show by a long shot. But no, man, I don't. I don't think I recall it. That's not one of my favorite topics. So, this is this is the one. It was a confusing fact pattern and we won't go into it.

It spans a couple of years. But basically, we talked about how Congress will delegate authority, right? So, Congress has all the authority.

According to the Constitution, Congress is the one who makes laws, right? They have this authority and they will delegate it to different agencies, right? So, they have delegated in different acts, different laws that they pass. They have delegated authority to do certain things to agencies like the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. And so, the Environmental Protection Agency is tasked with doing certain things, air quality, water quality, but they get all of their power from Congress, right? And so, there's this whole set of cases over the past 100, 200 years. There's all these, there's all this case law that talks about what an agency can do, how this power can be delegated, used, when does an agency have to go back to Congress for additional powers?

And I think someone who's smarter than me, maybe a legal scholar would say, until this case, the tradition was kind of interpreting the directives from Congress from Congress broadly, right? So, you kind of, these agencies become very powerful and they have a lot of authority, they can penalize people, they can change policy. And so, not to oversimplify, but there was a clean power plan a couple years back where the EPA wanted to de-emphasize coal, kind of punished coal, wanted to transition to fight climate change or what have you and transition. And it affected a lot of people. So, the EPA kind of put this plan into place that was going to negatively affect coal and fossil fuels. And so, there was a big lawsuit, got a lot of interested parties, and the Supreme Court voted six to three in this. And basically, they said the court, anytime an agency does something big and new, the case at hand here was climate change. They were trying to stop climate change.

The regulation is presumptively invalid unless Congress has specifically authorized regulating in this sphere. And so, obviously, air quality is kind of something we understand the EPA has a right to do, but the aims they were trying to advance was really going to negatively impact whole industries. And the court kind of stepped in and said, hey, this was a big change. This is something new that the EPA is trying to do.

It's going to affect a lot of people. And basically, you got to go back to Congress for this. So, this was kind of a new take on an old issue from the Supreme Court.

Yeah. You know, I think one thing we can all agree on is there's certain issues that we all have a vested interest in and we should all really care about. And the air that we literally all breathe is definitely one of those issues, Josh. I think I can say that with great confidence, but it's an interesting concept because, you know, Congress, obviously, they can legislate. They can create laws. And there's, you know, I think there is some need and some situations for these agencies, you know, to be established that do have some level of power to govern and to assist with some of these things.

But it's a matter of degree. And it's a matter of how much of that power can be delegated to these agencies. And so, like you said, in this case, it was ruled that this is essentially an overstepping of that power.

And, you know, you see both sides of the issues, you know. So, you see the majority in this case basically sees itself as giving power kind of back to Congress and where they feel it should be, you know. It should be in the hands of the legislature, the folks who have been elected, the representatives to dictate these things. And then the minority kind of looks at it as this is the Supreme Court making decisions that really the EPA, that agency that's been created should be making. And they're kind of, you know, usurping that power from the EPA that they should validly have. So, you know, this is one of those things where you see both sides kind of getting adamant and passionate about it.

I think we get used to certain things, right? So, we go about our day-to-day lives and we don't have too much time to worry about Congress or what they're doing. And, you know, this came up when we were talking about the Supreme Court's abortion decision that came up. You know, we talked about how the Supreme Court didn't make abortion illegal. They've just decided it's not.

The legal theory that created the right to abortion is invalid. And so, that's what the court did. They said, hey, there's not really a constitutional right, which is jolting and shocking when the country's been used to something for 50 years.

And then, you know, so I get that. But from a legal perspective, you can at least, I can understand their logic and their reasoning. But everything gets magnified because we've gotten used to our Congress being so, right? I think everybody, you ask anybody, no matter what side of the political spectrum they fall on, Congress is not getting a lot of stuff done, right? I think that's the, no matter who you are, Congress isn't doing what you want them to do.

They have a hard time passing anything. I think Congress being dysfunctional is putting a real big highlight on what the president can do and what the Supreme Court can do because usually all these branches are working together in some fashion, balancing each other out. But when one branch is just not doing anything, you know, the government suffers, right? Because Congress could easily just make abortion legal if that's what Congress wanted to do. They can make it legal.

They can make it illegal. It's something the federal government could legislate. And here the EPA is kind of acting, the EPA kind of, you know, they get their Congress, they get their congressional power that gets delegated to them. And then they work with the executive branch and they kind of work together to make policy.

And here the Supreme Court is saying, no, Congress should do this, which is not a bad decision, I don't think. Sure, Congress, that's who we elect, right? That's our representatives and they should be doing it as opposed to what the head of the EPA is appointed by the president, right? So that's kind of an executive branch. But anyway, if Congress wasn't dysfunctional, then I think everybody would be fine. And a lot of the comments that I read, the people who looked at this decision negative as taking power from the EPA was basically like, well, great. Now, if the EPA can't do it, we'll never get anything done because we need Congress to step in.

And that's just not something that is easy these days. The Outlaw lawyers tackling again, West Virginia versus the EPA. And we have a lot to get to on the program today.

So we will continue that discussion. The Outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, again, Whitaker and Hamer law firm, the managing partners, they're practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. If you've got a legal situation that you are facing and you've got questions, I've got a phone number for you where you can get some answers. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information briefly what the call is about. And an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will return your call. You can also email your questions to the program and we'll answer them on a future broadcast. That's questions at Conveniently located offices for you, Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina and Gastonia. And please check out the website,

We're back right after this. Back on the Outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, your hosts and the managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina. Offices conveniently located for you, Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina and Gastonia. And if you've got a legal situation, you've got questions you need answers to, we've got a phone number for you. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. And again, contact information briefly what the call's about and an attorney will be in touch with you. And you can always email your questions to the program and we'll answer those on a future program.

Again, questions at We're going to talk about the Atlantic Coast Conference. Tanner Iskra I'll tell you what, Morgan. I know you and Joseph and I, we like to talk about sports. It's just, we're all sports fans. We like to talk about sports. And so, when we have a crossover legal sports segment, I'm always very excited because I felt like that plays into our wheelhouse. And we don't get to talk about it every day, but we talked about, I think, last show, we talked about the ACC, the mega conferences, all the rumors about one college or university leaving one conference for the other and ESPN, and it's all contracts. Like everything we were talking about, the ACC is formed by a contract. It's held together by a contract as is the SEC and the Big Ten and the Pac-12. And you've got, you know, contracts for intellectual property and TV rights, and that's all sports law is. It's contracts on top of contracts on top of contracts. And so, when they report on these universities threatening to leave, or they're reporting on, all right, well, if UNC or NC State or Duke or whoever it is wants to leave, they'll be breaching the ACC grant of rights, or they'll be breaching a ESPN TV deal, and what would the buyout be? And this is all contractual negotiation.

So, this is ripe with the law, this type of topic. Well, it seems like you guys have been following. Well, it's like you guys have been following.

Well, I tell you, it's kind of shocking. We knew that, you know, athletics and the money behind athletics and TV contracts was going to cause, you know, a lot of conferences to add members, but I never thought we'd get to the point where a massive conference like the Atlantic Coast, which has been around since 1953, is on the verge of possibly just disintegrating. I mean, they're talking about the SEC taking a couple of teams.

I won't mention any names, Clemson and Carolina, but I mean, there are all kinds of options out there for these teams, but to think of the ACC just not being here or even having a conference is just mind blowing. It is, man. And, you know, it's also, if you just look at the trajectory of college sports in the last, you know, several years, like the landscape has changed so drastically, so quickly that if you, you know, you could go back 10, 15, 20 years and, you know, say you have a time machine, you bring Josh from 15, 20 years ago into the present and it's like college sports are unrecognizable to him. Like you wouldn't even be able to comprehend the way that it has evolved and changed. And some of these things we've been talking about, you would think that was insanity if it was presented to you then.

I saw it and kind of again, went down a rabbit hole and been reading about this for like two weeks. You know, I saw somebody talk about like the, I can't remember what the list was, but it's like the most watched, I guess it'd be like the most watched programs over the past year or whatever. And like 20, I don't remember what it was, but like 20 out of the 25 most watched programs were pro or college football. And so I guess that's, everybody's doubling down even harder on college football since as a society, we, as together, we really only watch sports, right? Everybody else has their own show, the righteous gemstones or, you know, old Seinfeld reruns, like whatever you watch, you can just put yourself in this little corner.

And so we don't have 71 million people watching the last episode of MASH or what it is. And so all these big ticket items are all football. And so that's where all the money's going. And, you know, we've talked about the name and likeness deals and, you know, just kind of, we're in the wild west of college football now.

It's just any, anything goes, but I wanted to, I wanted to do this guys. So, you know, when you buy a house, right? I was trying to think of the contracts most people deal with every day. If you're not a lawyer and you're not in the business of reviewing contracts and drafting contracts, the contracts you deal with on a daily basis.

So when you buy your house, you're probably using a pretty standard offer to purchase contract. What do you say it's about 12, 13 pages, Joe? I'd say 15, including attachments, Josh.

All right. So that's a 15 page contract. And let's say you decide you want to buy Chick-fil-A or McDonald's. You want to buy a franchise franchise agreements between 50 and 150, maybe with exhibits, but you can get up to about 150 pages on a good franchise agreement.

And, you know, so I was just kind of using that as a frame of reference. And with that said, how many pages do you think you might've seen it already? I don't know, but how many pages do you think this ACC grant of rights contract would be? I didn't see it. I did not see it, but I did see your notes.

So I've got a leg up on the competition and I think, I think you would, yeah. Let's see if Morgan, Morgan probably saw your notes too. So we're, we're asking what the thickness of the contract is. Yeah. Just, just, this seems like a pretty important contract to me and ACC grant of rights, all these universities, millions of dollars are at stake with this. The fact that we're talking about the importance and how big it should be, I'm going to go small. I bet it is surprisingly a few pages. It's four pages.

Wow. It's a longer document. There's like 15, you know, however many, how many, I don't even know how many teams we have anymore in ACC, but there's 14 or 15 signature pages.

There's four legitimate pages. It's kind of like almost a memorandum of understanding is what it's shaped up, but I read it. I was like, this is, this is, it takes me back to law school and the, and you had the professors that, that would really push that very simple legal doctrine.

You remember that one, Josh kiss, was that something that was pushed into your brain? Keep it simple, stupid. And that's what they're doing here, man. They're keeping it simple. And why does something need to be 100, 150 pages? You know, I get some things need to be, be that lengthy, but at the same time, like that's one of the things that turns a lot of people off to, to the law and attorneys in general, when you get into these crazy verbose and just, you know, you've got all this like flowery verbiage and this, this extra wording in there that you could argue is unnecessary. And that's why, you know, there's, there's been recently more of a movement towards it's just a plain language movement, kind of simplifying things. And they don't have to be overly complex or complicated. You can, you can state things in layman's terms. You can do a four pager or a five pager and, and get by with that.

And I think we should, we should encourage that and, and kind of try to move towards that. But yes, that being said, very surprising that this would be as, as short as it is. And I've heard, and this, so what I saw, I think it got uploaded to the athletic, a local media outlet had it, but it was a draft. It was, I guess it was meant for, I guess, Wake Forest University. It was a draft that was sent into Wake Forest University.

It's unsigned and it was uploaded. And so there may, and there, I'm sure there were addendums signed at different times over the years and what have you, but, but it's, it's very clear, right? You're, you're assigning your media rights, whether you're in the ACC or not to, to the ACC. And so it does make leaving, I guess that was the whole point, right?

It does make leaving difficult. And I, and I haven't seen, I haven't seen this, this get challenged, you know, the, the PAC 10 kind of had one that was coming up. It's kind of timed with TV deals expiring. And so a lot of the movement right now is because these, these were, these were expiring and some other conferences, but ACCs is good through, I think I saw 2036.

So looking at it made me actually feel a little bit better. Cause I think it would take, you know, attorney can come up with a way to challenge a lot of things, right? So this seems like an iron clad agreement, but you know, you can attack consideration, right? You can, there's, there's things you can attack. Nothing's iron clad. Like you do the best you can, but everything can be challenged one way or the other.

But I don't know if you've heard any of those arguments for how something like this might be challenged, Joe. Yeah. You know, it's not something I've it's, it makes me kind of thinking of the ACC breaking up makes me kind of sad, man. And I do this thing where I just ignore things that make me sad. And it's going pretty well, pretty good life plan. I think in general, you just ignore the things that make you upset. And if you do that, man, life is good.

Life is easy. You're there's nothing that could go wrong with that approach. But I think the, I think the most successful one I've seen as well, what happens, you know, some people have said, well, maybe there can be a buyout calculated. And if you're getting enough money somewhere else, it would make sense.

And that probably works as we get closer to 2036. But I was like, what would it take? You know, from just from a legal perspective, what would it take now for for the ACC to dissolve? And I think it would take like four to eight teams all deciding to leave. Because then at that point, that kind of changes the terms of the deal for everyone, right?

You know, if you get a group of schools are like, you know, we're out of here, do your worst. You know, what's what's left of the ACC that changes the TV deal that changes what everybody kind of bought into. So that was the one that made the most sense to me, I saw a couple people kind of throw that out there.

And but it'd still be a legal battle, it'd still be expensive. But if the ACC no longer existed, who you gonna, you know, who you gonna pay damages to that at that point, you know, but again, I'd wanted to look at that I found it. Actually, I didn't find it kind of hit me over the head. I saw somebody tweeted or shared. So I didn't I don't want to make it look like I spent all week searching for it diligently.

But I did. I came across it and it was ain't a lot there, man. It's it's it is simple. And it's it's doing what it's supposed to do right now.

I just I hope it keeps it up. You know, the outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, you can find them managing partners Whitaker and Hamer law firm. They are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina.

They have offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Varina and Gastonia. Each and every week we talk to legalese, you're going to have possibly a legal situation you're facing and you've got some questions. I have a phone number for you. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information. Briefly what that call is about an attorney will return your call and have a conversation. Also, you can send your questions to the program questions at the outlaw lawyer dot com.

We will get to those questions on a future episode. And please check out the website, the outlaw lawyer dot com. We've got listener questions when we return right here on the outlaw lawyer. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners Whitaker and Hamer law firm. Offices conveniently located for you, Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Varina and Gastonia. And Josh and Joe, they're practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina.

There are legal situations out there facing so many of you. If you have questions about it, we've got a phone number for you. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact info briefly what that call is about and an attorney will be in touch with you. You can also email your questions to the program. We're about to get into some questions, but go to questions at the outlaw lawyer dot com and send us the question and we'll answer it on a future edition of the outlaw lawyer. All right, gentlemen, we have questions.

Yeah, we've got a couple this week in one. Our first listener question today is kind of piggybacking on a question we had last time we were all together. So we on a previous show, we had a question about how attorneys get paid. And I think that comes up. I've talked to a lot of clients who who may come to us with an issue and they don't know if this is going to be a contingency type arrangement, something the firm may take where we collect our fee when and only in if you collect, you know, like we talked about a car accident, a personal injury case, something like that. And then we talked about sometimes attorneys will get paid hourly, right? Well, we'll have an hourly amount. We'll bill you as we work on your file.

And we talked about a breach of contract lawsuit or something like that, kind of being a good example of that. And then we have some things we do for a flat fee, right? We'll just you'll come in and we'll say you're charged with, you know, driving under the influence, right?

You've got a criminal charge and we will talk to you about the facts and what we think needs to happen with your case. And we'll say, hey, to handle this case through trial, we'll charge blank and that'll be a flat fee. So there's all kinds of ways attorneys can charge. Every attorney approaches what they charge differently depending on where they're at, you know, that what their local bar is doing, what, you know, their time's worth. And so there's all these factors that go into what an attorney gets paid from a client. And so we talked about that.

And so this is kind of a piggyback on that. I got a question from a caller who basically called the show to say, how do I schedule a time to speak with one of your attorneys? So that was the question. How do I get to talk to one of the attorneys at Whitaker and Hamer?

And the answer to that for this person was you're halfway there. You called us, right? That's the first step.

First step is make contact with the firm and there's all different ways you can do that. Uh, Morgan, what's, what's, what's that number? What's our number? 800-659-1186.

That's 800-659-1186. And so when you call that, that line is, uh, not, there's not anybody answering that line every day that that is a line for you to, to leave us a message, leave the show a message, letting us know your name, a good way to reach back out to you and kind of what's going on. And then one of our paralegals or attorneys, uh, we'll reach back out to you to try to try to figure out if that's something we might be able to help you with. And if it is, uh, we'll get you scheduled for, for a consult. We'll get you scheduled for the kind of the next step. And so, uh, that's the easiest way is just to call us, you know, um, and then there's all kinds of ways we meet with people, Joe, you know, we have, we have offices kind of, um, spaced out here across the central North Carolina. We've got more offices opening up this year. So we'll have some, some news for folks, uh, as we, as we continue to show, but, uh, that's one way we meet with people, right, Joe, we just meet with people in the office, just have you come to whatever office is closest to you. That's right, Josh, you know, the traditional, uh, the traditional way that you think of, of attorneys and clients meeting at least in the, in the past was like you said, just a physical, come on into the office, sit down, get cozy.

We'll talk in person. And that's, that's, that's absolutely something that we still offer. We've got several locations, like you said, with some additional locations that, that are opening up soon, that we'll be able to announce here that we're pretty excited about. But one of our goals as a firm is really just to, to offer convenience to folks. So if you want to have a consult and in one of our several offices, or if you want to have a closing in one of our several offices, we offer many locations for that purpose to make it easier for you, the client, to, to get in touch with us, to get into the office.

Um, but we're also forward thinking, Josh, we're also a forward thinking progressive law firm. And, and we, we want to, we try to bring things into the future and, and again, add convenience for our clients. So one of the things we've been doing here lately, uh, frequently, and this is something that a lot of folks are doing, so it's not necessarily a novel approach, especially post COVID-19, but we've been doing, uh, we've been offering and doing a lot of Zoom consults, a lot of virtual consults, uh, and then just a lot of phone consults as well. So it's all about convenience and offering you multiple options and opportunities to get in touch and speak to us. And so we, we try to really give you a lot of different options to, for what's easiest and most convenient for you to fit into your schedule as a client to get in touch with us.

Yeah. When you, when you talk to us to schedule a time to sit down, I'm, I'm kind of old fashioned. I, uh, I'm a big lie. I like to sit down with folks. I still like to shake hands, even though I know the pandemic kind of, kind of ruined that for us a little bit, but, uh, I like to meet people in person, but I also do phone consults and then of course, Zoom, everybody does Zoom now. So we're, we're always happy to do that. We had to set up a couple of conference rooms to, to make us able to do that.

And that's so convenient, uh, for folks. Uh, but, but definitely a lot of ways to, to get in touch with us, you know, we've, we've got email, we've got, we've got the phone number that Morgan, uh, gives you. Uh, but once you reach out, we're going to reach back out to you and, and again, try to figure out, you know, if we can help you and if we can help you get and getting you to sit down with the right person in the firm.

Cause we're, you know, we're, we've, we got over nine, we got nine attorneys that work with us, about 40 staff. And so once we, once we get your call, once we figure out who you are and what's going on, we got to get you to the right person here at the firm that can help you. But, but yeah, just reaching out and, and making contacts always the first step. And we try to get back out to you just as soon as we can. But that's, uh, I think that would be the answer for how do I schedule a time to speak with one of your attorneys? How do I set up a consult? And the quick answer is you just, you just call us and we'll reach back out to you and get you set up. Well, it's about getting information.

Don't procrastinate. If you've got questions about a situation that you're facing, here's an opportunity to get some answers. Again, the number is 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. Leave your contact information briefly, what the call is about. And again, that will be, you know, an automated answer.

You leave your information and an attorney will return that call as quickly as they can. And you can always email your questions to the show and we'll use them on future broadcasts, changing the name to protect you guys. But questions at That's questions at We've got more listener questions.

We'll get into those as we move through the program. You're listening to the Outlaw Lawyer's Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, your hosts are the managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer law firm. Again, offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay Farina, and Gastonia.

And we talk legalese each and every week here on the program. And if you've got questions, you know the number 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact info and we will be in touch. An attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will give you a call. Questions at

You can do that by email as well. We'll be back right after this. Welcome back into the Outlaw Lawyer's. Your hosts Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, the managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer law firm.

Offices located Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay Farina, and Gastonia. They are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. We talk legalese each and every week.

We have some fun, but we also get very serious with the topics. A lot of questions when it comes to the legal side of things. And you may be facing something.

You may have some questions about what you're going through. Good way to get answers is to call Whitaker and Hamer. You can call this 800 number 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information. It'll be an automated answer for you, but leave your information briefly what the call is about. An attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And as we always say, you can always send your questions to the program and we will answer them on future shows.

Questions at All right, we have another listener question. We'll get to that and some odds and ends, but this is the Outlaw Lawyer's.

Josh and Joe, take it away. So Morgan, our next listener question. When we got this question, I wondered if most time we get questions about like individual, like I have this problem or I encountered this car accident closing need a will. So this question came in and I think it's secretly a law professor, maybe one of our old real property professors asking this question. But here's the question. What is the difference between a race state and a notice state with respect to real estate closings?

And so this isn't a normal question you get. So I'm assuming this is someone in the real estate industry or a law professor trying to throw some curveballs on our nice show here. But, you know, we've got a lot of people moving in. One of the good things about being in North Carolina right now is that a lot of people want to move here, right? We got a lot of businesses coming in.

This is all good stuff. So we get a lot of folks from New York and California and Florida and Texas and some of these states, you know, we don't have the same opinion, just like every state doesn't have the same opinion on marijuana laws or abortion. A lot of states have different ideas about how a real estate closing should go, right? So when you buy your house or you refinance, they have different laws that govern how we do our title searches and who has to be involved. And so closing is different in a lot of states, right?

So a lot of people who had a house in New York, sold it, moved down here, bought a house. And I find it interesting. It's probably not interesting to everybody, but I find it interesting just talking to them about their closing process, how it went in New York as opposed to how it's going here in North Carolina. And so we do get in this conversation from time to time because not every state's the same.

And so you got two kinds of states, a race state and a notice state when it comes to real estate. You know, I was just up in New York, not a, I wouldn't say it's a vacation, but I was up in New York for a wedding. And so there was a lot of stuff going on. It was interesting to read the news up there. You guys, have y'all been on vacation yet this summer? I have not. I mean, I've done little short trips up to the mountains to see the folks. We have not been at the beach. We're actually going to go, we're going to go to the coast a week after labor day and try to enjoy what we hope is going to be pretty much an empty beach. But that's the extent of our, right now, our current vacation plans. What about you?

What about you, Joe? You know, I, uh, no traditional vacation this year. I was gonna, I'm trying something new.

It's a new thing. It's, um, instead of doing like a relaxing vacation, I'm trying this thing where I just don't. And I just work extremely hard, uh, harder than ever until, um, I pass out and sleep for a long period of time. That's my, so no vacation scheduled and planned.

Um, I don't even know what really happened, man. It's just didn't, did not get one on the books and, uh, just plugging away every day. And that's kind of like a vacation to me, having the ability to come into work and work really hard.

Yeah. Vacation away from the family. I know how that is.

I mean, it gets so crazy at the house, actually, uh, a respite, a respite is heading to the office. Well, you said you went to a wedding. Uh, Josh, I've got a question for you.

You're there, you're enjoying yourself. You're, you know, you're, you're, you're happy for the couple. What song at the reception comes on that gets you on the dance floor? And Joe, you can throw out your answer too, but I want to hear from Josh. Uh, what song is it? Well, Morgan, I, this may come as a, as a shock to you, but I do not dance.

Well, that doesn't mean a thing. You get to a wedding, you have a few toddies, you get out there. Yeah. So when I get to her, you, you answered this first, Josh, you, you, all right. So, so when I go to a wedding, my whole goal is I try to get away from the wedding. Even if I'm happy to be there, I'm happy for the couple. I'm happy to see everybody. Here's your gift. I'm leaving.

My, my goal is to find a room or a section that nobody really is in where I can kind of hide. And so the last wedding that we went to was a great wedding. It was good to see everybody. Uh, I was not around for much of the dancing because I found a, there was kind of a back room that kind of opened up into this patio and I got a group of guys there and we smoked cigars for like three hours. So I will say it was one of the best weddings I've ever been to, but it's because I did not really dance. I wasn't really. I love that, man.

I love that your approach to go into a wedding is to immediately find an exit or to find a place where you can hide and not interact with anybody that you don't want to. You smoke cigars for three hours. Could you walk after that session? Good grief.

That's a lot of cigar smoking. It was, it was a lot. I will tell you, um, you know, me and my wife, our wedding song was, um, oh man. Uh, you guys tell me what your wedding songs were real quick and I'll figure out why are you going to do this to me on air, man? I don't want to, I want to, we're talking about songs that get you moving to the dance floor and if they play, yeah, this is the thing about my wedding. You know, I was, I was intoxicated by the time the music came on and I don't remember, I don't remember a whole lot.

I remember somebody taking their shirt off and doing a, uh, Petey Pablo twisting around their head like a helicopter at one point. But, uh, you know, I don't, I don't dance either. I think I danced at my wedding, but again, that was, uh, I had a lot of liquid courage going at that point, but the song that would get me on the dance floor at a wedding would be the literal voice of God coming down from the heavens and telling me that if I didn't dance that the world was going to end.

If Pitbull came out and said, Joe Hamer. Anyway, the song I danced to at my wedding back in 1995 was, uh, I can't help falling in love with you, Elvis. I thought you were talking about dance, like breakdancing. He asked me, Josh said, what song did you dance to at your wedding?

And I'm assuming that would be the, the, you know, the, the groom and the bride. And, you know, that's the song. I danced to all of them.

That's my answer. Every, all of the songs. We had one song, Joe, where you went out with your wife, just the two of you, you had the floor to yourself and then halfway through you, you kind of wave on the bridal party and they come and dance with you.

But yeah. What did you, what did you, what did you dance to? It was really hot, man. It was really hot.

I think I had a heat stroke and I think that's blocking part of my brain right now. But, uh, I'll tell you one of the songs I do really dig if it comes on at a wedding and I won't dance, but, uh, I might clap my hands three or four times and nod my head at the people dancing. And that's the, uh, that's the old, uh, classic, let me clear my throat. Oh yeah. I only will approve of the version that has Bismarcky in it. Right.

There's a version that doesn't have Bismarcky and there's a version that has God rest his soul. That he can't be in it. Yeah. No, there's every wedding I've been to. I don't, I don't, I didn't be easier. It'd be easier if I just dance.

Right. Like I wish I was that guy who could just dance, you know, baby. What's stopping you, man? What is stopping you? I honestly, I think it would add a lot to your personality and I think it would be a good thing for the law, not only the law firm and the show, but the world in general.

I'm a, I'm set in my ways, man. So it's like, but though the, you know, my wife will get mad at me and eventually they'll do that. I've seen that happen firsthand. I can attest that they'll put, they'll finally ask people to put it in the songs they want to dance to.

Right. And so these people put in their wedding songs and stuff. They play the wedding song that we got, you know, I have to get up and sway or whatever it is that I can. That's why you remember what the song was. If you forget the song, how can you dance to it?

Yeah. So we, I'm in love by Wilson Pickett. That was our song. That's good. Well, I've met wife gets mad at me when you don't dance at things.

How does that even work? I was going to say for the record here on the Outlaw Lawyer, I have met both of the better halves and you guys did extremely well. Well, that's good.

I tried very hard. Hey, we're supposed to be answering a listener question. So did we even get to the listener question? I think I said it. Yeah. You did say it.

We haven't answered it yet. So race notice, a race state and notice state as to real estate closing. So I'll tell you North Carolina is what we call a race state. And so our recording statute is basically the first one to record at the courthouse wins, right? So if you have a dishonest seller and they're trying to sell you property and sell another guy property, they're going to be liable for some damages and possibly a crime. But technically the first person that gets down there and records their deed at the courthouse, once it's on record, it's a race to the courthouse. And that's who wins between two third-party purchases for value usually. So that's kind of why we call it a race state. And a notice state still has kind of the same requirement that things get recorded, but you can have constructive or actual notice of something else happening in the chain of title that can be used so that even though you may be the first one to get your deed on record at the courthouse, you still may not prevail in a notice state. And that's why a lot of times in movies, you'll see where people have a house in escrow for like four weeks, but it not necessarily hasn't recorded. And so it's different in every state, but North Carolina, you come to closing and then your closing attorney, preferably Whitaker and Hamer, gets everything ready and gets everything recorded at the courthouse as quick as we can, updates our search to make sure nothing's happened in the interim, because that's how you get good title.

All right, guys, another great show in the books. The Outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, Whitaker and Hamer law firm. They're the managing partners. They're practicing attorneys here in North Carolina.

They have offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina and Gastonia. And if you are facing a legal situation, you have questions, call the number 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact info and briefly what that call is about. And an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And you can always email your questions to the program. Questions at We're back next week, right here on the radio. with you. The attorneys appearing on the show are speaking in generalities about the law in North Carolina and how these laws affect the average North Carolinian. If you have any questions about the content of the show, contact us directly.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-03-23 21:53:02 / 2023-03-23 22:18:25 / 25

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