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Exploring Biblical Inerrancy, Pt. 1 (w/ Steve James)

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August 22, 2021 11:35 am

Exploring Biblical Inerrancy, Pt. 1 (w/ Steve James)

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August 22, 2021 11:35 am

In this episode, Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul welcome Steve James to Outer Brightness. Steve is a Latter-day Saint that we have dialogued with in various Facebook groups. Steve and Paul were having a spirited dialogue about the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy in one of the groups and we decided to invite him on the program to continue the conversation. In this first installment, we introduce ourselves to each other to give context to the topic, and begin the discussion of Biblical Inerrancy with a conversation about the eighth LDS Article of Faith and a proper definition of Biblical Inerrancy.

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Your right and conference is encouragement and insight to explore new physical workshops to exhibitors and fractions receive helpful resources this year just to ministry? Sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ through song and testimony numbers of Mormons saving relationship with Jesus, through the grace of God's church in Utah on September 10 in the South held September 24 when church make a trip to his events request by the man share that information to fireflies welcome to the sub, so this podcast we have with us this week. Steve James special guest Stephen and Matthew and I often discuss topics related to faith in Mormonism and Christianity and some of the several groups that we all inhabit on Facebook. Steve and I were earlier this week discussing the topic of biblical inerrancy in one of those groups and decided on bottom on the podcast to have a chat about us to worksite a heavy Steve, I want to tell us a little bit about yourself where you from where did you reborn your your upbringing, your connection to the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints and all that kind of stuff shortly very respectful and called my background was church household is worth and troublemakers.

The last one, so much so that you high school being an active member churches, my parents worries like they were more like, you know, that's cool. Yeah so I really have that fervent testimony and so my late teens, you know for long time. I see myself cultural Mormon not much of the leading latter-day St. reread some stuff that's more soul-searching and feeling like I could believe enough to go and preach it now serve the mission not really want to bolster testimony. Came home and just spend reading lots.

As you know more I'm convinced that exposed to people who are critical of the church.

One of my earliest memories was I was probably like it. My first memories and intercourse with the discussion with people face a bunch of creatures, there are signs of stuff, told the waste of time. You know that the spirit of contention but not which you advised.

I felt compelled to discuss things with and my attitude is that you know there's something I'm I feel good about leaving. I'm not afraid to stand up for what you willing to learn more exposed to different ideas terms of my capacity now I'm just a common member of the church work for the church. A special calling secretary work. You know I'm not any way represent the church. I'm just remember a guy who likes to read a lot with your upbringing with only two boys in our family, but there's five of. There are five of us three sisters.

Well my brother is the youngest of us on the second but in terms of what you said about being a cultural Mormon is a teenager that was very much my path as well and as I got closer to going on a mission is, when I started to take her seriously thinking about do I really believe this enough in order to go out and preach it so that really resonated with me so where did you serve your mission Steve Mexico in the lower part of Oaxaca, Mexico. Cool cool is that not be considered near the Yucatán men yes is just so outrageous to him for all areas considered Mormon location setting, but is very awesome place. I really love that went back to God. Yes, well, it's just a great place for you because I saw the profile you went to university to study there. So, actually my grad school work. There is what I studied was environmental psychology, specifically attention restoration theory, which brings us pretty much the better nature than the city test fuel for use of for healing addiction is a good time was really my back working family stuff so I just yet.

After that… I enjoy much of the space for me as well.

I worked for my bachelors in my and my master so it's definitely tough row to go that route, but I encourage all my likes to stick their schooling out of the way before they children but should I select I can bear any questions for Steve yes is Parks and Recreation your favorite TV show was really good. I enjoyed the work of the characters there is also in the office formula did some nice things with, a lot has to be up your alley, but it seems like we thought before. And if you think you're been more marketing role in terms of school, I got caught home contracting services, HVAC, plumbing, goal and take a couple glasses of working six guy's counsel actually counting more marketing work administration of a lot of different ventures without risking my money which is been really nice. The role that I need now is just over the course of a certain stock that they need to keep their vans updated to excess, now own exposure marketing, but I wouldn't say I'm a marketing guru by any means. Okay like your man of many talents across many different things.

That's about it. I mean, in this economy, but about things. The question so you know mission is ask. You are ever zone leader was assistant to the president… Anything else in your mission you are. Yes, this is stuck out like a fireworks. Once I got you know I was a fun mission I worked really hard as a leader. That's about the highest of the little hierarchy thing I care to be was not all but I really really enjoy it a lot. I would not be the person I am today sure that's really a great training teaches self-sufficiency in working with others. Teamwork absolutely yes.

That's probably because of that, nothing really supersedes tangible you want to do a quick reduction for Steve's benefit. Sure I saw was exciting and blessed.

Paul tends to take more time than I do so I want to know so I was born and Utah in that area my parents to live in North Ogden. So that's where I grew up I went to high school. The state and then I transferred the rest of Utah's bachelors degree.

Eventually, and I did my Masters there. So yes, my family, it was.

Not super active in the church was a kid like our member going. You know we we go to church on Sunday and then we go your grocery list stuff after church we were in exactly the most great great job raising us but you know they become start with so this was the only thing talked about something my friends talked about but I don't know what was member as my mom at some point, you know, I don't question my mother like you get baptized in their biscuit like you can get baptized as I got to care that sounds around nine-ish I think when I was in then the missionaries come and teach me a receipt will be discussions before preach the gospel.

So I received all those and I was actually baptizing his sister and then like you know I was was mostly active up until two years you know what the priest was Deacon and the teacher and, when an active like high school age came back to activity college when I was kind of like I wasn't going to grab my life and we are outside high school in psychology much direction to go life and stuff like I felt convicted by some steaks that made a run at times I was back to back activity really want to Mormon was during the Grammy Hinckley had a bookmark challenge that year, but I barely start going back and like October November likes to read you like what you should start in January year that was like 560. Yeah.

So then because as active in church. I was an increase in art, increased high school and then eventually elder. I really wanted one mission because I like what I get like one desired unite alike. That's what would God give me a time and I pray really fervently as we possibly thinking things through and all the issues I have in my testimony was like well the obvious choice to serve mission so mission papers and calling and serving mission which is defunct now. Technically, I think I can member in swapping the lines, the boundary lines so used to comprise all of Belgium. Okay, like many Belgian all the Netherlands in tiny little part of France on top of your legal and so have to step have to speak French south side is really weird is like two missions in one really talks to Dutch speaking missionaries to their own thing and cool because Russell's Eunice their headquarters so that he speaks English as a national so it's weird so the president and teepees would live in Brussels and office office elders and sisters and two APs want to be for the price it would always but I knew both languages and ran across no gaps so all you know, bachelors degree yeah start coming like we got our journeys out district, but there's a lot of things I really struggled with for years and years, starting about 2014 an outstanding purchase drink against stuff that I struggle with nothing to really dive deep in the Bible really did a lot of the Bible teaches on justification. Things like that that I had really looking at the Bible in a way that have been taught and I noticed her second district just like my experiences, like you don't go verse by verse in the Bible talk about first contexts, like as missionaries, you would talk about a doctrine in the book of Mormon and then you might reference the Bible you know a couple verses in the Bible. There go back to the book alone, you know that guy just always go back to so really diving to the Bible reading chapter by chapter commentaries stoppages like open up a world so yeah Celeste unaware like God was teaching me and leading me to an understanding of the Bible for so yeah so I like is across from the point where Either side.

The Bible still needed. I am declared righteous by God, by grace alone, you know, just trusting in Jesus because like Abraham, he trusted in God and is credited as righteousness had to decide whether that was stick with that euros are you going so is really tough decision because it's time to get married in the temple like we could watch had everything planned and if set up in a house like at the state crisis get through it. Have started testimony and work out that way. And so I said admit to sucking on not the same place anymore different place to save my testimony work out but no sales in 2016 and then place will be calling your resigned and then been attending Baptist Church my area sauce revenue member since last cent so long. But keep the muscle cells. All I think a lot of people will be a little bit guarded about you know Mike you want to marry outside the church. I would consider that a nonstarter.

I think that that's something where you know if you will not person you be an example. Then Czeslaw joined tradition to have someone tradition speak with work with cash that fellow shipping so that's a fortune, but it is appreciate hearing your story understanding specialist will come from from Steve.

I was born and raised in the Salt Lake area born in Lakeview Hospital in Bountiful and then the race until I was nine, like right on the border of Salt Lake City and then North Salt Lake and I when I was nine, we moved to the suburbs of West Jordan and I spent the rest of my adolescence, there is kind of a little bit about Hellraiser when I was a teenager I ran with a lot of friends who were not LDS or were lapsed LDS kids and Al Qaeda gained a reputation in my ward as one who cannot be trusted and well deserved to be honest, yes.

So had some experiences in my teenage years where where I think a lot of us become aware of our stand right and had a conversation with my bishop in which he can't help it understands grace of the atonement and he later also was disappointing when I went on my mission so I just got a good flavor of how I was my sophomore year of high school I had an afternoon class for release time for seminary himself never had a problem making of my sophomore year of my Junior release time was third. Which was right when my friends and I tended to leave school and go to breakfast skipping seminary language is going to go to Denny's and coffee and breakfast with my friends to the point where my my seminary teacher decided to make the class president to allow really is.

But it got me showing up seminary the rest of that year and they met. I my senior year I went all through my suit as well and graduating seminary, but went to West Jordan high school for sophomore and junior year in them with the Copper Hills high school not opened up my senior year, I played basketball and my JV coach at West Jordan had got bad coaching job. It Copper Hills master complaint form. So I was I was in the I was in the boundaries from school so I went out there and played my senior year really enjoyed it. Some pictures on my team really good influence on influences on me in terms of working on me to get back to going to church regular kind of thing so it was a good experience all around. I went to my one of my mission to Budapest, Hungary mission and so spent two thirds of my mission in Budapest in various districts of Budapest section of two cities booted in past once it's on the East once it's on the west side of the Danube River and spent time on both sides of the river and then I also spent time in small town called Munich has a Ukrainian border spent the winter out there was very cold city and I spent most of the summer in the city called Saigon which is down the southern hungry on what used to be the Yugoslavian border and yes Osama mission 97 and 99 came home and went back to work for small electronics firm or my dad was working and where I have worked prior to my mission.

I basically boxed up used to make AC Nielsen ratings boxes that they would ship out to help the home so the contract for people watching them back. The company used to make those Tracy Nelson so a friend of mine and I boxed those up all day long and then get them ready to ship. Did that and he had a friend who was meeting girls online which is kind of a new think is the Internet really kinda hit and became big while I was on my mission, my friends. I did a few things with it before my mission, but it really wasn't what it is. Leaving was when I came home and so this I dislike permitting meeting girls online was interesting but he would come in after the weekend and go on dates and is to tell about his friends like always be complaining that the girls were anything like they were saying they were in their profiles so my friend and I decided we would do a scientific experiment and make profiles ourselves to see if you know the problem was our mutual friend or whether the girls really were being dishonest so I got on this website, which was called LDS profile out there and a couple of days. I had some emails from you. I had emails from girls all over the place, and from one from one dollar here in Cincinnati area started talking to her and get to know each other pretty well and I'm University of Utah and was getting ready to register the interest of why don't you come to school out here University of Cincinnati serious. So I decide to move out here and we are married next year got buried in the Bountiful Utah Temple and spent the first 10 years of our marriage as latter-day Saints served as ward mission leader Young men's organization.

During that time as a primary teacher and in a couple different elders quorum presidency and know I would say I did my best to try to understand LDS teaching and try to try to gain a testimony that I would say that when I went out on my mission. I wanted to believe, that makes sense as a teenager Smith's story of receiving complaints from an angel struck me as hard to believe for. For me personally and I remember finding my dad had a bookshelf in their bedroom and he had some kind of LDS apologetics type books that touched on like Joseph Smith's treasure digging and some of those other thornier issues, and he had he had them in the bottom part of the bookcase that had doors on it so it's almost like a Certain kind of book down there, but I wish I would kinda stick into the room when they were around and digging through his books and read to them and member now my my mission in the last area of my mission. I made a goal that I would read through all of the standard works while I was on my mission and the last one I got to was the New Testament so I was reading through the New Testament in my last area. I have a little with his little pocket versions of the of the standard works that the other districts. For military members that mission home and there was small secretary with many were member reading through the little New Testament on the bus riding between appointments that we had as missionaries in it was really start to strike me how much of the book of Mormon is reliant upon the New Testament particularly like the letters of Paul and Anita like the similarities between them, the younger and in Paul's experiences and I member sitting on my bed in my last area I really wanted to believe that you know sit and daydream about coming home and going to work for the churches as archaeologist studying our archaeology at BYU and I'm going to know where you served your mission and to find evidence of Mormon. You know because of it made it made sense like it claims to be a history and the whole the whole narrative of golden plates assumes the antiquity church so really wanted that to be true, and I came home from my mission. I joined widen joint forms that I signed up for the Journal of book Mormon studies obligation but put out. Remember going to work.

I was working at Hershey chocolate warehouse at the time I go to work there and all orders to be put on trucks, and that I would go to lunch and sit in my car and read from the Journal book of Mormon studies.

I member reading through a lot of the articles.

One of them in particular was about to call Priscilla stop five. It's the true life story yeah yeah right yeah but you know that for me because it was it had once been seen as is evidence right once I asked her people's. Amanda read this article.

Yeah, that's not really what we think it is. It was kind of articles were tough, so like you said you cannot hear got married, spent 10 years really try to make it work and just kind of reached the place where I really didn't believe that the book of Mormon was historical so I tried to go the route of that a lot of LDS try to go now where all well maybe it's not historical but it is still useful in distal end so that didn't really work for me for very long. I try to make it work that there's always kind of this tagging question in the back of my head about why are there plates that in the narrative, you know. But when is finishing up my my bachelors degree at a small Catholic college near here because of I was studying business but because it was a Roman Catholic college they required to detect one religion class so I took a New Testament class and in that introduction, New Testament class, we studied through higher criticism, lower criticism from from a Roman Catholic perspective, but the textbook abuse was really good and you know was really interesting to me what kind of stood out to me during those during the course was that the Bible could be studied is history. There are ties back into archaeology ties back into texts that actually exist and that that reminded me of an experience that I've had before my mission. I went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit when I was at BYU in early 1997 and I saw the replica of the of the great Isaiah scroll and found the Qumran that they tour around with that exhibit and the thinking of the time was listening to the little Walkman thing that they gave you to play it safe as you want to be exhibit tell you when you're looking at the kind of yeah and I remember they were making the tie back to the passages in the book of Mormon word where Isaiah is quoted in talking about speaking for the best, and best of the book of Mormon is like that. I remember having kind of this moment, therapy why you like this is an actual tax. That's right here in front of me that really was found. You know and just kind it was like a moment where I struggle with is the sexual textbook. The book of Mormon place therapy for completely intangible. You can see them Check to see if if what's written in the English version of first Nephi actually lines like you can do when my scholars were doing with the research on the Dead Sea Scrolls with the biblical record so it was kind of experiences really drove me to want to study more deeply on the Bible and the history of the Bible select I enrolled after I left the LDS church year after I left. I enrolled in biblical studies Masters degree program at Cincinnati Christian University and so I spent four years studying biblical studies at Cincinnati Christian University and once I graduated, then started considering you what the what does ministry look like for me and and started thinking about that and praying on it and hit on this podcast and so I pitched it to Michael Flournoy think you know him a little bit too. And the three of us proposed Matthew join us of the three of us started. Matthew and I are continuing so success enjoyed casts are just, debate fast for your time Defeats the purpose of appreciate hearing your story definitely helps me understand where you're coming from both of you guys. You know that the things accomplished you a way I can see validity to these.feeling of not knowing where things are at.

That's good so we will jump into anything specific right now or I think we can jump in your outline for Aleut listeners benefit.

We invited Steve_conversation the kind of doing person via a release virtually the conversation that he and I were having online about biblical inerrancy and how that how that ties into latter-day St. views of the Bible and in Scripture and inspiration and revelation in all this topic so you sent us over an outline is kind of the things you'd like to talk about and ask us about stored which could have a conversation will ask us questions will answer and we may have some questions for him and like I said our goal is always to be a place where Christians Latter Day Saints can get together and have a conversation so just wasting all talk about number eight which, for those who who are familiar asked pages like a creeper LDS roughly what it is and number eight says we believe the Bible to be the word of God. As far as it is translated correctly.

We also believe the book of Mormon speed work on and so on your perspective very quick for me not, I know some Christians read that Mormons don't trust Mormons think about a lower view of what the Bible is when Texas offices as far as is translated correctly, which to me speaks to being correctly understood. Talk about a few examples here, but one thing that stands out as well is and for those who are kinda familiar with Joseph Smith translation history. He says the word translate like all kinds of stuff come from.

It's almost like interpretation, for example, book of Moses didn't have any source whatsoever. Joseph just received that revelation is claiming a call that a translation even though he did have anything he was translating. He was more reading in the Bible and getting information out so I'm not sure any scholar, LDS or otherwise pin down a really precise term of what Joseph meant when he said translate sometimes but I think that this is one of those cases, however, for the sake of this conversation, I think we can assume he means translate how we translate really something like that mediator patiently doesn't get to. Too often we but that the first question I have is there any Christian doesn't believe the first part of that. We believe the Bible is fun to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. That is all translation matters a great deal when I discussed with people in my view, it does a lot of the research that I do use Gateway first installed English translations like 60 of them tests over the scene and you can clearly see variations you could see things missing here and here you can see the difference there should matter to talk about talk about perfect. And I guess it is a good time for you to come in and discuss you how you to view inerrancy in terms of what that means, at least for most people were LDS we see an errant CS error-free that the literal meaning of the term, although it seems that within the Christian tradition that might not be the case or something some other now the others lot lot, laying the groundwork for the discussion because going to bring up exec said about how you could say that justice seems like the way you use the word translate what he said is very fluid low is very vague and kind of yes some very hard-line so that's why it's difficult for to really answer yes or no question where if there's any Christian that would disagree with that because it really requires having not defined set of terms you know someone so like you said we use the term translate like take the original language. No subscriptions written and Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

And you translate in such a way that the original intent of the original meaning of the text is made in the target language.

I think and it's done so accurately that they crisply greeted yes that's you consider that to be the word of God, but a lot of times it seems like at least in my experience when we talk about translation of texts or you know, maybe UNIX-based.

I mean, I think I probably use it when I scoffed. It was like the telephone game you know when we talk about this article pages like while you copy this copy and the yen have no idea what that and that's kind of conflated with translation but that's more like it's more properly called transmission sure copies of text so yeah it's all been muddy because sometimes those issues translation transmission are completed, those are there related but they're not the same thing so yeah, I think probably to find that the Christians would agree with that statement.

I agree. I think there's there's even an article in the Chicago state on financing which would do to a little bit later that I think is pretty well aligned with the first part of the article of faith and one of the spaces I had when I was it was after I had left the LDS church as I was kind of starting to discuss Mormonism online. Iodide spent a decade or more discussing Mormonism online with a broad group of people with belief in the early 2000 and did so with some of the same, which was a discussion board that Orson Scott card had put up familiar with him is not heard and understood.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. He had what you have had a website and try to member what was called hat rack River think is what was called for his writings that he had which is a discussion board about Mormonism so discussed a lot of stuff there and then several of us migrated to a private discussion board where we continue to kinda hash out questions and wanted to talk about. There was a lot of a lot of fear backbend still about what happened with September 6 you know if you are certain things you disfellowshipped dress communicated so we went private for a while but I member when I first left field yesterday. I was starting to discuss with people on Facebook for the first time as an outsider looking at that LDS faith and practice in Scripture stuff from from an outside view and I met a guy named Jared Anderson he was a Mormon scholar who had studied at BYU and then went on to study University of North Carolina with Funderburk. Urman was was Dr. so advisor and Jerry was was good to me and asked me some good questions. We had some good conversations about his view is his use of inspiration and revelation as he was trying to wrestle through what what Joseph Smith was doing and steer you kind of advise me as I as I made plans to go to seminary but I member having a conversation with them. After reading some of his writings on about inspiration revelation about inerrancy because it seemed to me at the time that inerrancy was kind of the position that Christians kinda had to take so was one the next kind of adopted and was like yeah Bibles in their right and he asked me some some pointed questions about it. I member was like I got into studying and seminary in reading through the Chicago statement and thinking through what what the doctors inerrancy is.

I realize that a lot of times there's some misunderstandings even even among people like Jared who would got a doctorate on what exactly Christians are affirming when there when they're talking about biblical inerrancy and so you and I talked about it it's it's related to the autographed by the original writings, so it's kinda like what what Joseph Smith was talking about when you said you know that he believes the Bible as it fell from the pens of the original Hebrew offers right. That's the idea right this. It is really is a really is a theological presupposition right that flows from God's perfection by God is perfect and all-powerful so he can communicate with humans in a way that will be perfect will be will get his point across perfectly right. That's the idea. So that's that's kind of one misunderstanding is like to talk about this trip is many translations like you were saying what the Bible did with a lot of different English translations, let alone other languages, and a lot of times Christians were or Latter Day Saints.

They think well if there's if there's differences in the translations is that a problem for Nancy rightly understood again that the documents related to the autographed says it's the idea that God can communicate to people perfectly in the way that he wants done 11 misunderstanding that I came across as a chassis without having conversations with Latter Day Saints.

Any thoughts on that useful. Yes, I have a hard time seeing how that puts the traditional Christian in a different position Latter Day Saints book of Mormon because we don't have access to the autographed access to the original book of Mormon and at least year we have belief in an angel came and confirmed it with Mrs. who stated he did believe in this, you mean if you're always kind chasing the perfection of his autograph that we don't have almost never will have. How does that, you know what kind of foundation is not becomes the topology of reinforcing one view over another.

If that makes any sense for me as I studied through where where I feel I'm in a better position as a Christian is that there are thousands of ancient manuscripts for the New Testament. This is well over 500-5800 manuscript for the New Testament. There's many manuscripts from the Old Testament writings as well. And as as scholars do what what's called textual criticism, comparing the manuscript seeing where there are variants and there are variants, but you know the config compare where there are variants of network began very early like a future about the church father origin right and when he created the hex opera which would be amazing if we had Natalie Dole, but his idea there was take the Septuagint which was the Greek Old Testament, but the Christians used compared with the Hebrew Scriptures.

I have several versions of the Hebrew Scriptures and then he had some other versions of the Hebrew Bible, and other languages as well. So basically backstop six columns side-by-side multivolume work of the entire Bible is the Christians of been doing clinical textual criticism for a long time because again the idea is that God speaks to people and what he says and then reveals and inspires his prophets and apostles to write Scripture and is God's word self understanding trying to back to that original sport and so you work for me right like us aware feel better position as a Christians. There are those posters that manuscript history wears for the book of Mormon that manuscript history doesn't exist. The plates were said to exist the weekend Examine them and then there's no manuscript history of what was on the plates prior to that can be examined either because we have a strict original Scrabble manuscripts about the original handwritten is really good work by Girl Scouts in his who he's gone through those documents compared them very interesting stuff. In terms of what changes Joseph made right after the initial translation but updates were made, but as for my mind goes in hearing that! For starters… Suppose Joseph Smith did thousand years earlier and everything, and everything happened the same but it wasn't pretty impressed so all the book more copies were done by hand and a thousand years later became chattels copies again with some variance, but thousands and thousands of how would that be any different then the New Testament in that regard. I think the difference for me is that the book of Mormon. Would you have Joseph Smith saying is I found some gold plates by eight of an angel and those golden plates contains writings of ancient prophets so it's it's the manuscripts of the writings of the ancient prophets that are nonexistent.

The problem estimate, so the law says reform in the temple Became essentially yeah that makes a set does make sense.

I would say if you want like an at a more correct analog to what Christians are talking about with the writings of the prophets and apostles, I would say probably be which is produced as the doctrine and covenants is where he's directly serving as the prophet receiving revelations now certainly get that the argument is that he did the same thing with the book of Mormon but but the book of Mormon itself and an edge of the Smith claim. For it is that it is an ancient record so the claim is that Nephi and Almon and all of those people actually existed. So I would want to see their writings of theirs would be the autographed is what I'm saying but blacksmiths is just a translation.

So how would you know what to look for. I guess the next question. You know like like let's say let's say select John Sorensen fights writings in my reflects something found in the book of Mormon. How would you know best equivalent to a textual very fine for the New Testament, different languages, things like that I would want the John Sorensen found a fragment of a writing that aligned with the writings of, for example be very convincing, but nothing like that is been found so I missed your document. You have to look into.

So this is something that was found back in the old world and document dates roughly the highest time.

It pretty much matches the initial exodus out of the week.

Nephi's massive very specific markers that are just really strikingly similar. And you know this because it kind of assurance makeup evolving because like how in the same revelation Lehigh have when they had supposedly left something for you guys consider video to post about that sometime. It sounds a little familiar years ago I read the book put out by farms I want to say was called book of Mormon authorship revisited something like that. There was a collection of articles by various scholars with farms. It may have been covered in that book that's probably where you work so we missed you once I get into each other so yeah wanted ask with regards to the article of faith. Specifically so, the first part we believe the word of God.

As far as is translated correctly.

We also believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God. What are your thoughts on why the as far as it is transmitted closely is not tagged on to the book of Mormon as well and I just assume it was perfect. He was very upfront saying that this is the best I could do it again.

He was constantly making revisions even later in life. So is certainly not a supposition of inerrancy on the part of Mormon. I think we just can't take this for granted that we need to translate it properly.

My guess is that the reason that first part was left in the Bible and not more risk of faith use the book of Mormon. Overall, whereas other fish would use the Bible interpret in different ways and so is not very useful to you if you're reading in such a way that removes the meeting kind of thing that wasn't an issue, opposite the church started for speculation on my part.

Bathroom questions so you had enough and wanted to get into talking about maybe.

Specifics about inerrancy or infallibility fallibility or if you want to go further along and talk about that you know in terms like what it means to be infallible and inerrant.

There's even discussions amongst Christians and that's what that means. I read a really interesting, but I stamped.

He's one of the big advocates very wise best way of the what they called the ecclesiastical text so it's kind of similar to the only movement there more like a text is this preferred for those who don't know know know I Texas except this is the name that was given to the text that was used as the basis for the King James translation so they did actually did you Texel criticism when they were when the teenage times translators were know they were translating James Bible select anytime you're using text. It's unavoidable, you're going to use Texel so that several New Testament text honest phase that harasses and so they can use these texts as a basis for the packaging, translation, and then when they made all their textual decisions. Variance that finally let text to be used was called the Texas receptive so advocates for this idea that the church is that that's the basic text, although not exactly debate basic Texas transmitter time is like the ecclesiastical texting like that's the text strategic and and he doesn't like the word he thinks that that's not a good word use that which we talking about infallibility because the sense that yeah he admits that there are textual variants in the text the various manuscripts. Ultimately, most of those Texel grades don't really have any significance in terms of doctrine, so for him.

He wanted to talk about that while the text you have know whether these are added by copyist errors or whatever they don't change anything. So why does it matter that every single letter perfect, but then it about another way they will. Infallibility is the instructor definition inerrancy because inerrancy means there that it is without error and infallibility can mean that it is impossible.

So there's a lot there's a lot of debate in the Christian, but I think we go through the statement actually defines what it means. I think that's important because like like pulsing earlier. I think there's a lot of missed misunderstanding is what infallibility Nancy actually know that were taught autographed fragment the original languages, and so were not saying every single transmitted copy. Not every every copy manuscript is because there could be mean, there's plenty of sex is more variance of the New Testament in our words and every every time there's a misspelling or variance every time they skip over word of the variance of his brains all over the place, which is why Texel criticism so important because you have all these different lines of transition and see all the work. Here they spelled it, and even back then. No, it's not spelling was Mr. Smith ties as it is today so so there's a lot of reasons why variance exists in about that is, to bring up scavengers that I guess that's good.

All wants to sell but I feel like a lot of currently Christians have much stronger view of inerrancy donated Christians to going to school scriptural criticism a little bit more. For example, get all encounter people online say every single word or words exactly perfect thing, or even will use it to defend against science or something that really cut two different trains altogether.

Whereas a look at someone like William Craigie has an interesting consequence inerrancy is a corollary of inspiration and he finds it is on the on the edges of one's test important to care about inerrancy so much as is to care about Christ. I don't know how much of that is maybe him couching the language, but he feels like a lot more like you. Yes you in terms of financing, inspiration, something that has been influenced by God in some way.

I think that's a good thing. The been wrapping up the other.

There are people that I don't Think William Ln., Craig is one of them, but there are people who will take a little limited inerrancy view which is kind of the view that the Bible is inerrant as it speaks on salvation and topics related to salvation by when it comes to the creation of the world. For example, where there's a lot of debate about this is the Bible reliable with what he says about creation and then people compare with scientific understandings so people say that limited inerrancy where it's an error when it comes to salvation but is not inerrant, not necessarily an error when it comes to other topics.

What I would say about that is the doctrine of inerrancy actually does include other topics like Dr. Nancy says that the Bible is does not bear on anything it says about any topic down where you where I may be a little bit different than some other people that you might speak to is is is on the biblical studies guy that's that's what I studied in my Masters degree. So, I'm not. Although I took systematic theology courses.

I'm not a systematics guy. So when it comes to when it comes to say the creation of the world you know inerrancy doesn't mean that the way we've always for the way that some Christians was understood what the Bible is saying there is inerrant means that what what is communicated. There by God is inerrant, even if it doesn't align with scientific understandings. Maybe it's not meant to write, but it's still inerrant and what it's saying about who God is his creator so understanding the cultures into which God spoke is really important for biblical studies guy like me you absolutely different from the limited view it's more just like contextual and how you would describe it is fully on board as well. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the other brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page. We would appreciate it if you give the page a light. We also have an outer brightness group on Facebook can join and interact with us and others. As we discussed the podcast past episodes and suggestions for future etc. you can also send this email outer brightness Hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to outer brightness wherever you listen to podcasts. If you are benefiting from a content please write a review to help us spread the word subscribe to our YouTube channel and hit that notification will use it for other brightness is graciously provided by the talented banana Flournoy and Adams Road.

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