You're entering outer brightness. The Faith After Mormonism Conference is an annual conference that provides encouragement and insight for people leaving Mormonism to explore a new faith home in historic biblical Christianity. Through speakers, workshops, exhibitors, and individual interactions, you will receive helpful resources and meet others on a similar journey. This year, the featured guests are going to be the folks from Adams Road Ministry.
Adams Road is a Christian non-profit ministry dedicated to sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ through song and testimony. Its members are former Mormons who have been brought into a saving relationship with Jesus through the grace of God. This year, there will be two events. The North event will be held at Alpine Church in Layton, Utah, on September 10th and 11th, and the South event will be held September 24th and 25th at Center Point Church in Orem, Utah. For those of you who are in Utah, I encourage you to make a trip either to Layton or Orem to these events. I think you'll be greatly blessed by them, and I just wanted to share that information with you.
Hey, fireflies. Welcome to this episode of the Out of Brightness podcast. We have with us this week Steve James, a special guest. Steve and Matthew and I often discuss topics related to faith and Mormonism and Christianity in some of the several groups that we all inhabit on Facebook. Steve and I were earlier this week discussing the topic of biblical inerrancy in one of those groups and decided to invite him on the podcast to have a chat about us.
So we're excited to have you, Steve. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where are you from?
Where were you born? Your upbringing? Your connection to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and all of that kind of stuff? Sure.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate the opportunity. I've watched a couple episodes of your show.
I really like the way that you guys go about it, very respectful and calm. So in terms of my background, I was born in a family that was members of the church. I grew up in a household with five boys.
I was the fourth. And I mean, to put it lightly, we were troublemakers, pretty much all of us, except for the last one. So much so that, you know, in high school, being an active member of church was kind of like the least of my parents' worries. Like they were more like, you know, if he's going to church, that's cool.
You know, that's all good. And so I was one of those people. I didn't really have that fervent testimony until probably my late teens. You know, for a long time, I had kind of figured, seen myself as more of a cultural Mormon, not so much a believing Latter-day Saint. Then in my late teens, you know, reread some stuff, did some more soul-searching, ended up feeling like I could believe enough to go and preach it, went out, served a mission, and that really did a lot to bolster that testimony. I came home and just been reading a lot since then and, you know, the more I read, the more I'm kind of hooked on it, the more I'm convinced. I think from a really young age, I've been exposed to people who are critical of the church. One of my earliest memories was at the Mattai Pageant. I was probably like at 12, so one of my first memories and intercourse with, or, you know, discussion with people of other faiths was a bunch of preachers at the Mattai Pageant who would come with their, you know, their signs and stuff. And, you know, we were kind of told, don't waste your time, you know, that they're going to bring a spirit of contention and whatnot, which, you know, that's probably fine advice, but I felt compelled to discuss things with them.
And, you know, that's always kind of been my attitude is that, you know, if there's something I feel good about and I believe in, I'm not afraid to stand up for it, but I always want to be willing to learn more, be exposed to different ideas. In terms of my capacity now, I'm just a common member of the church. I don't work for the church. I don't have any special calling. I'm a secretary in the ward.
You know, I'm not in any way a representative of the church. I'm just a member, a guy who's, who's into it and who likes to read a lot of stuff and enjoys dialoguing about it. All right, cool.
Yeah. I resonate with a lot of what you said about your upbringing. There's only two boys in our family, but there's five of them. There are five of us. I have three sisters as well.
And then my brother is the youngest of us. I'm the second, but in terms of what you said about, you know, kind of being a cultural Mormon as a teenager, that I, that was very much my path as well. And as I got closer to going on a mission is kind of when I started to take it seriously and thinking about, you know, do I really believe this enough in order to go out and preach it?
So that really resonated with me. So where, where did you serve your mission, Steve? I served in Mexico in the lower part of Oaxaca is the name of the state. It's right where Mexico bends down on the bottom there. Okay, cool. Cool. So is that, um, let's see, would that be considered near the Yucatan then? Yeah.
Yeah. So it's just south of the Yucatan. It's, it's right where the mountain ranges converge. Um, it's part of, part of that area is considered by a lot of LDS to be the Mormon, uh, location like the setting. Um, but it's a, it's a very awesome place.
I really loved it. Went back and honeymoon there, went back with my brother. I'd love to go again as well. It's just a great place.
Okay, cool. And, um, I wore my youth hat for you, cause I saw that on your Facebook profile that you, you went to university of Utah, what did you study there? So I actually, uh, did my grad school work there.
Uh, my degree was in parks, rec and tourism, but what I studied was, uh, environmental psychology, specifically attention restoration theory, which to, to keep it brief, it's pretty much that our minds operate better in nature than they do in the city and how we could test that, uh, feel for, use it for healing addictions, things like that. So it was a good time, uh, you know, grad school wasn't really my bag. I was working to a family and stuff. So I just, uh, you know, after that, I kind of ducked out of that.
I enjoy academia, but, uh, not sure that it's the right space for me, at least right now. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, that resonates with me as well. Cause I, I worked through my bachelor's and my, and my master's.
So it's definitely a tough road to go that route, but, uh, I encourage all my kids to go ahead and get their schooling out of the way before they have children, but, uh, for sure. So I can, I can feel you there. Um, Matthew, any questions for Steve? Yes. As parks and rec your favorite TV show, you know, that show was really good. I enjoyed, I enjoyed how they worked with the characters there. Uh, you obviously Ron Swanson's awesome, but, uh, I think they kind of took the office formula and, uh, did some nice things with it in terms of character development. I enjoyed that show, got a little out of hand sometimes, but I figured, you know, that that'd be up your alley, but it seems like we've talked before and it seems like you've been more kind of a marketing role in terms of actually do it.
Yeah. Well, so what happened was when I was applying to school, I got a job with my brother who does, uh, home contracting, home services, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and I had taken a couple of classes in marketing. So it was like, Hey, you'd be my marketing guy.
And this was back when we had, you know, five, six guys. Um, so I actually done accounting work, marketing work, uh, administrative stuff, just a lot of different entrepreneurial ventures without risking my own money, which has been really nice. Um, the role that I'm in now is just over the, the Vampart stock.
Each of our guys have a certain stock that they need to keep their vans updated to. So that's kind of what I handle now. Um, so I have a little bit of exposure to marketing, but I wouldn't say that I'm a, I'm a marketing guru by any means. Okay. Gotcha. It sounds like you're a, you're a man of many talents. I'm a guy who can tread water across many different things. And that's about it.
I mean, in this economy, you know, like with COVID and everything, that's not a bad thing. So sure. That's great. Uh, let's see in terms of other questions. Um, so, uh, you know, when I need, anytime anybody goes on a mission, things they ask you are, were you ever a zone leader or assistant to the president? You want to talk about anything else in your mission? You know, things like that, or, yeah. So I was, uh, like in my childhood, I was a bit of a troublemaker on my mission. I never did anything horrible. Uh, you know, I, uh, stuck out to look at fireworks one time, got into well for that, you know? Um, but I was a fun missionary, but I worked really hard. Um, at one point I was old meter.
That's about the highest of the little hierarchy thing I cared to be. You know, I looked at what APs did and just was not compelled by that at all. Um, but I really, really enjoyed my mission. Learned a lot. Um, I would not be the person I am without it today. That's for sure. It's really a great, uh, training ground, I guess, to kind of teach you self-sufficiency and, uh, working with others, teamwork, that kind of thing.
So there's a lot of lessons for sure that you learn. Absolutely. Uh, yeah, that's about all the questions I had.
I mean, nothing really super substantial, but just a couple of things I had in my mind. Yeah, that's cool. All right. So Matthew, you want to do a quick introduction for Steve's benefit? Sure. Um, my life's not as exciting and plus Paul tends to take up more time than I do, so I won't take up too much time.
Yeah, no. So I was born in a pleasant view, Utah, so Northern, Northern Utah grew up in that area. Uh, my parents still live in North Ogden. Uh, so, uh, that's where I grew up. I went to Weber, we were high school. Then I went to Weber state and then I transferred to University of Utah.
So I was working on my bachelor's degree eventually and, uh, did my master's there. Um, so yeah, so my family kind of was not super active in the church when I was a kid. Like I remember going there as a kid, but we didn't really, you know, we we'd go to church on Sunday and then we'd go, you know, do our grocery lists and stuff after church. So, you know, you weren't exactly the most, uh, practicing LDS families could say, but, uh, but, you know, I have, my parents are great. I feel like they did a great job raising us, but you know, they kind of started with faith. So, uh, baptism wasn't really a thing that we talked about when I was a little kid.
Uh, it was something my friends talked about, but I didn't really know what it was or really why it was important. And I remember asking my mom at some point, you know, I don't know why the question came to my mind. I was like, you know, if I don't get baptized, am I not going to go to heaven? And they're basically like, well, I mean, yeah, you kind of do need to get baptized. So I was like, I got to, I got to take care of that, you know, so, uh, so I was around nine ish, I think when that was, and then the missionaries come and teach me and received all the back then it was still the discussions, uh, before preach my gospel.
So I received all those. Um, and then I was actually baptized same day as my sister. She's two years younger than I was.
So she was eight when I was 10. Um, and then like ever since then, you know, I was kind of, uh, I was mostly active, you know, up until teen years, you know, went to priesthood, uh, I was already in the deacon and then teacher, and then kind of went in active, like high school age, uh, came back to activity during college when I was kind of like, I don't know, I wasn't feeling really too great about my life. You know, when you're outside of high school and starting college, you're kind of feeling like you don't have much direction.
Like you're trying to figure out how to do life and stuff. And I kind of felt convicted by some mistakes I'd made around that time. So I was kind of wanting to come back.
And so then I came back to activity and I felt like, you know, Hey, I really want to test when the Book of Mormon, you know, it was during the, uh, uh, Gordon B Hinkley had the Book of Mormon challenge that year. But I barely started coming back in like October and November and people would be like, so have you read it yet? I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, well, you should have known you shouldn't have been starting in January.
I'm like, I have no idea. So I didn't, I didn't finish it that year, obviously, but, uh, so I forget what year that was. I think it was like 2005, six, somewhere in there, but yeah, so then, um, you know, I was acting in church. I was, uh, ordained a priest because I hadn't been already in a priest, I was in high school and then, um, you know, eventually an elder. And then, so I really wanted to go on a mission because I felt like, well, if I get a testimony of the Book of Mormon, which I felt like that was what I really wanted and desired, you know, I felt like that's what I, what God had given me at the time, you know, I prayed really fervently and I was reading constantly and thinking things through and all the issues that I had in my mind.
And so when I felt like I had a testimony of it, then I was like, well, the obvious choice is to serve a mission. So put my mission papers in and then got a calling and served in the Belgium Brussels Netherlands mission, which is defunct now, technically, I think, um, I can't remember if they've been swapping the lines, the boundary lines quite a few times since then. So it used to comprise all of Belgium.
Okay. And like 99% of Belgium, uh, all of the Netherlands and like a tiny little part of France on top near Lille. Um, and so half this, half the side, the North side, the Dutch and the other half happens to be French.
So I was called the French side. Uh, it was really weird. It was like two missions in one because we never really talked to the Dutch speaking missionaries.
It's like they were their own thing. And that was kind of cool because, uh, Brussels, you know, that's where the European union is, uh, their headquarters. So that city, basically everybody speaks English because everybody's international.
So it's weird. So the president and the APs would live in Brussels and the office office, you know, elders and sisters and the two APs wanted to be from the French side, one would be from the Dutch side, but they would always teach in English. But since they knew both languages, in case they ran across somebody that didn't know that language, you know, they could, they could teach them. So it was kind of cool. Um, so yeah, so, you know, some of the shit came home, um, you know, finished my bachelor's degree. Uh, yeah, started, started, I mean, like we've gotten more detailed in our episodes about our journeys out, out of the LDS church, but there are just a lot of, you know, things that I really struggled with for years and years, um, starting at about 2014, you know, studying church history and things like that stuff that I had struggled with. And that's when I really dive deep into the Bible and really gained a love of the Bible and what it teaches on, you know, on justification and things like that. And things that I had really looking at the Bible in a way that hadn't been taught, you know, in the LDS church, like in the LDS church, it seemed like from my experience, it's kind of like, you don't go verse by verse in the Bible and talk about each verse and context. It's kind of like as missionaries, you know, you would, you would talk about a doctrine in the book of Mormon, and then you might reference the Bible, you know, a couple of verses in the Bible here and there, and then you'd go back into the book of Mormon.
You know, the idea was to always go back to the book of Mormon. So really diving into the Bible, reading it, you know, chapter by chapter commentaries and stuff, it just like opened up a whole new world. And so, yeah, so that's kind of where I feel like God was teaching me and leading me to an understanding of the Bible that I hadn't had before. Um, so yeah, so I, I felt like I was at a crossroads at a certain point where I felt like, okay, I have to either decide, you know, I felt like the Bible was telling me that I'm declared righteous by God, by grace alone, you know, through faithful and, you know, just trusting in the finished work of Jesus, you know, because like Abraham, he trusted in God and he was credited to his righteousness. I felt like I had, I had to decide whether that I was going to stick with that or whether I was going to, you know, continue where I was already going. So it was really tough decision because at the time, um, I was engaged to be married in the temple and like, we pretty much had everything planned and everything set up. And then, you know, I was like, had this faith crisis and I was hoping to get through it and be like, have a stronger testimony, uh, but didn't work out that way. And so I just had to admit to her, you know, I'm just like, you know, I'm not at the same place anymore. I feel like I'm a different place in terms of my faith, my testimony. So, uh, so I didn't work out, um, but, uh, you know, so I was in 2016, um, and then eventually, so the following year I resigned and then since then I've been attending a Baptist church in my area.
So that's where I've been a member since, uh, since then. So yeah, hopefully it wasn't too long, but figure out to keep the most important details. No, that's good to know.
It's too bad. It didn't work out with that, uh, that young lady though. That's a, you know, um, I think that a lot of people, maybe of all faith traditions can be a little bit too guarded about that. You know, like if my kid walked to Mary outside of the church, I wouldn't consider that a, uh, a non-starter. I think that that's something where, you know, if you, if you love that person and you be an example of them, chances are, they're probably going to join your faith tradition either way.
And if not, then you'll be able to have someone in another tradition to be able to speak with and work with and kind of share that, that fellowship thing. So that's a, that's unfortunate and pan out for you, but it is, uh, appreciate hearing your story. That helps me understand and contextualize a little bit more where you're coming from. Yeah, no problem. Thanks, Matthew.
Yeah. So, so Steve, uh, I was born and raised in, uh, the Salt Lake area, um, born in, in, uh, Lakeview hospital in Bountiful and then raised until I was nine, kind of like right on the border of, uh, Salt Lake city and North Salt Lake. Um, and then, uh, when I was nine, we moved to the suburbs, we moved to West Jordan and I spent the rest of my adolescence there. Um, I was kind of a little bit of a hell raiser when I was a, when I was a teenager, I ran with, um, a lot of friends who were not LDS, uh, or were lapsed LDS kids. And, uh, you know, kind of gained a reputation and in my ward as a one who cannot be trusted, I guess, and it was probably well-deserved, um, if I, if I'm to be honest, but, um, yeah. So, uh, had some experiences in my teenage years where, where I think a lot of us, um, kind of become aware of our sin.
Right. And, um, had a conversation with my Bishop, uh, in which, uh, he kind of helped me to understand grace and the atonement. And, um, you know, he later also, uh, was Bishop when, when I went on my mission. Um, so, you know, just to kind of give you a flavor of, of how I was my sophomore year of high school, uh, I had an afternoon, uh, class for release time for seminary.
Um, so never had a problem making it my sophomore year, but my junior year, uh, my release time was third period, which was right when, uh, my friends and I attended to leave school and go to breakfast. Um, so I was skipping seminary a lot, my junior year going there, going to Denny's and drinking coffee and eating breakfast with my friends. And, um, to the point where my seminary teacher, uh, decided to make me class president to get me to show up. It's not such a classic Mormon move though. That's pretty funny. It really is.
It really is. But it got me showing up to seminary the rest of that year. And then I, you know, my senior year, I went, uh, all through my senior year as well, did end up graduating seminary. Um, but, um, went to West Jordan high school, uh, for sophomore and junior year, and then went to copper Hills high school. When that opened up my senior year, uh, I played basketball and, um, my JV coach at West Jordan had gotten the head coaching job at, at copper Hills and asked me to come play for him. So I was, I was in the, I was in the, uh, boundaries for the school. So I went out there and played my senior year. Really enjoyed it.
My kids on my team, um, were really good influence influences on me in terms of, uh, working on me to kind of get back to going to church regular, that kind of thing. So, um, it was, uh, it was a good experience all around. Um, I went to my, went on my mission to, uh, Budapest, Hungary, uh, mission. And so spent, uh, probably two thirds of my mission in Budapest and various districts of Budapest. Um, that's actually two cities, Buddha and past one sits on the East and one sits on the West side of the Danube river. And, um, I spent time on both sides of the river. And then I also spent time in, um, a small town called Nira Chaza, uh, which is up by the Ukrainian border. Uh, I spent a winter out there, it was very cold, um, but it was a beautiful city.
Um, and then I spent, uh, most of the summer in a, in the city called Sega, uh, which is down in Southern Hungary, uh, on what used to be the Yugoslavia and border. Um, and yeah, so I was on my mission, 97 to 99, uh, came home and, um, went back to work for a small electronics firm where my dad was working and where I had worked prior to my mission. Uh, I basically boxed up, they used to make, um, the AC Nielsen ratings boxes that they would ship out to, to homes. So they could track what people were watching.
Um, that, that company used to make those for AC Nielsen. So a friend of mine and I, we would sit and box those up, uh, all day long and get them ready to ship. Um, and, uh, did that. And, uh, he had a friend who was meeting girls online, which was kind of a new thing because the internet really kind of hit and became big while I was on my mission, my friends and I did a few things with it before my mission, but it, it really wasn't, uh, what it is or even was when I came home. And, uh, so this, uh, this whole idea that people were meeting, meeting girls online was interesting.
Um, but he would come in after the weekend and they would go on dates and, uh, his, he'd tell me about his friends, like he'd always be complaining that the girls weren't anything like they were saying they were in their profiles. So my friend and I decided we would kind of do a scientific experiment and make profiles ourselves to see if, you know, the problem was our mutual friend or whether, you know, the girls really weren't being dishonest. So I got on this website, which was called LDS matchmaker.com profile out there. And, uh, within a couple of days I had, you know, some emails from girls down at BYU. I had emails from girls all over the place and from one, uh, from one gal out here in Cincinnati area, um, started talking to her and, uh, we got to know each other pretty well. And, um, I was going to go to, uh, university of Utah and was getting ready to get registered. And she said, well, why don't you come to school out here?
You could go to university of Cincinnati, uh, cause we were getting kind of serious. So I decided to move out here and, uh, we were married the next year. Um, we got married in the bountiful Utah temple and, uh, we spent the first 10 years of our marriage, uh, as latter day saints. Um, I served as word mission leader, uh, in the young men's organization during that time as a primary teacher, uh, and in a couple of different elders, corn presidencies. And, um, you know, uh, I would say I did my best to try to understand, uh, LDS teaching and try to try to gain a testimony of it. Um, I would say that when I went out on my mission, uh, I wanted to believe, uh, if that makes sense, um, as a teenager, Joseph Smith story, uh, of, of, you know, receiving golden plates from an angel struck me as, uh, hard to believe for, for me personally. And, um, I remember finding, you know, my dad had a bookshelf in their bedroom and he had, uh, some kind of LDS apologetics type books, um, that touched on like, uh, Joseph Smith's treasure digging and some of those other kind of thornier issues. Um, and he had, he had them in the bottom part of the bookcase that had doors on it.
So it's almost like he kept a certain kind of book down there, but I would, I would kind of sneak into their room when they weren't around and dig in through his books and read through them. Um, and I remember, um, kind of on my, on my mission in the last area of my mission, I had made a goal that I would read through all of the standard works while I was on my mission. Um, and the last one I got to, uh, was the new Testament. So I was reading through the new Testament. Um, in my last area, I had a little, one of those little, um, pocket versions of the, of the standard works that the LDS church puts out for military members.
I had ordered that through the mission home and, um, it was small, so I could carry it with me anywhere. And I remember reading through the little new Testament, um, on the bus, you know, riding between appointments that we had as missionaries. And, and it was really started to strike me how much of, uh, the book of Mormon is reliant upon the new Testament, uh, particularly like the letters of Paul and even like the similarities between Alma the younger and Paul's experiences. Um, and, uh, I remember sitting on my bed in, in my last area, I really wanted to, to believe. And I, and I, you know, would sit in daydream about coming home and, you know, going to work for the church as a, as an archeologist, you know, studying archeology at BYU and, and going to like, like, you know, where you served your mission and finding evidence of the book of Mormon, you know, um, because to me it made, it made sense, like it claims to be a history. Um, and the whole, the whole narrative of golden plates assumes, uh, antiquity. Right.
Um, so really wanted that to be true. Um, and when I came home from my mission, I joined, uh, well, I didn't join farms, but I, I signed up for their journal and book of Mormon studies, which is a publication that they put out. And I remember, uh, going to work, I was working at a, uh, Hershey chocolate warehouse at the time.
Um, and I would go to work there and pull orders to be put on trucks and then I would go to lunch and sit in my car and read from the journal of book of Mormon studies. I remember reading through a lot of the articles. One of them in particular was about, um, uh, what's it called?
Usela stop a five. Um, it's the tree of life stone. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of old debunk stuff now, but yeah. Right.
Yeah. But you know that for me, because it was, it had once been seen as, as evidence, right. And once I bolstered people's faith and then to read this article, yeah, it's not really what we think it is. Um, you know, those kinds of articles were tough.
Um, so, but, but like I said, you know, came out here, got married, uh, spent 10 years really trying to make it work. Um, and just kind of reached the place where, you know, I really didn't believe that the book of Mormon was historical. So I tried to go the route of, you know, that a lot of LDS try to go now where, Oh, well, maybe it's not historical, but maybe it's still useful, right?
Maybe it's still revealed. And so, um, that didn't really work for me, uh, for very long. I tried to make it work, but, um, there was always kind of this nagging question in the back of my head about, well, why are there plates then in the narrative, you know? Um, but, um, when I was finishing up my, my bachelor's degree at a small, uh, Catholic college near here, um, because of, I was studying business, but because it was a Roman Catholic college, they required you to take one religion class. So I took a new Testament class. And in that introduction to new Testament class, we studied through a higher criticism, lower criticism, um, from, from a Roman Catholic perspective.
Um, but the textbook that we used was really good. And, um, you know, it was really interesting to me, what kind of stood out to me during those, during that course was that the Bible could be studied as history, right? There, there are, um, ties back into archeology ties back into texts that actually exist. Um, and that, that reminded me of an experience that I had had before my mission. I went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit when it was at BYU, uh, in early 1997. And, um, I saw, you know, the, the replica of the, of the great Isaiah scroll that had been found at Qumran that they tour around with, with that exhibit. And I remember thinking at the time, you know, I was listening to the, the little, uh, Walkman thing that they gave you to, to play the tape as you walk through the exhibit and it would tell you what you're looking at.
That kind of thing. And I remember they were making the tie back to the passages in the book of Mormon, where, where Isaiah is quoted and talking about it, you know, speaking for that of the dust and that that's, you know, the book of Mormon is like that. And I remember having kind of this moment there at BYU, like, but this is an actual text that's right here in front of me that really was found, you know? Um, and it just kind of was like a, a moment where I struggled with, here's this actual text, but the book of Mormon plates, they're, they're completely intangible.
You can't see them. You can't check to see if, if what's written in the English version of first Nephi actually aligns, um, like you can do when like scholars were doing, uh, with the research on the Dead Sea Scrolls, uh, with the biblical record. So, um, you know, those kinds of experiences, uh, really drove me to, uh, want to study more deeply on the Bible and the history of the Bible. So I, I enrolled after I left the LDS church, uh, the year after I left, I enrolled in, um, a biblical studies master's degree program, uh, at Cincinnati Christian university. And so I spent, excuse me, four years, uh, studying biblical studies at Cincinnati Christian university. And, uh, once I graduated, then, uh, started considering, you know, what, uh, what does ministry look like for me and, and started thinking about that and praying on it and, and, uh, hit on this podcast. And so I pitched it to Michael Flournoy.
I think you know him a little bit too. And, uh, the three of us, uh, he, he proposed Matthew join us and the three of us started it and, uh, and Matthew and I are continuing it. So, yeah. Well, that's awesome.
I wish you guys success. I, like I said, I've enjoyed that your podcasts aren't just, uh, I don't know, debate fest where, you know, if everyone just yells at each other the whole time, kind of defeats the purpose of it, but, uh, no, I appreciate hearing your story that definitely, again, kind of helps me understand where you're coming from. And, you know, I think the both of you guys, you know, the, the things that kind of pushed you away, I could see validity to at least that feeling of, of not knowing, you know, where things are at. Um, yeah, that's good. So, uh, do we, do we want to jump into anything specific right now or, uh, yeah.
Yeah. I think, um, we can jump into your outline. Uh, so just for our listeners benefit, um, you know, we invited Steve on just for a conversation, uh, to kind of, uh, do in person, uh, via, or at least virtually, uh, the conversation that he and I were having online about biblical inerrancy and how that, how that, uh, ties into, uh, Latter-day Saint views of the Bible and, and scripture and inspiration and revelation and all of those topics. So Steve sent us over an outline, uh, just kind of the things he'd like to talk about and ask us about. So we're just going to have a conversation. Uh, he'll ask us questions we'll answer and we may have some questions for him. And, and like I said, uh, our goal is always to be a place where, um, Christians, Latter-day Saints can get together and have a conversation. So yeah, just take it away, Steve.
Cool. Um, so I guess the first thing we were going to talk about was article faith number eight, which, uh, for those who, who are familiar, it's the articles of faith is sort of like a creed for LDS. I mean, that's roughly what it is. Um, and the number eight says, we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the book of Mormons be the word of God. Um, and so, you know, depending on your perspective, where you're coming from reading that, and I know some Christians read that automatically think, oh, Mormons don't trust the Bible or Mormons, uh, you know, think of the Bible lower or, you know, have a diminutive view of what the Bible is when, you know, really reading the text itself, it says as far as it's translated correctly, which to me speaks to being correctly understood.
And we're going to talk about a few examples here. Uh, but one thing that stands out as well is, uh, and for those who are kind of familiar with Joseph Smith and his translation history, he says the word translate for like all kinds of stuff. Um, for him, it's almost like interpretation.
Um, for example, the book of Moses didn't have any source whatsoever. Joseph just received that the revelation, at least this is what he was claiming. Um, but he called that a translation, even though he didn't have anything he was translating, he was more reading into the Bible and getting information out of it. And so, um, I'm not sure that any scholar LDS or otherwise has pinned down a really precise term of what Joseph meant when he said translate sometimes. Um, but I think that, uh, this is kind of one of those cases. However, uh, for the sake of this conversation, I think we can assume he means translate how we mean translate, or at least something like that, maybe interpretation that way.
It doesn't get too, uh, too often that weeds. But the first question I had is, is there any Christian who doesn't believe the first part of that, that we believe the Bible, um, is to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. And what I mean by that is, um, you know, it seems like translation matters a great deal when I'm discussing the Bible with people.
I know that in my view, it does. Um, a lot of the research that I do, I use Bible gateway and I'll pick a verse and show all the English translations and, you know, there's like 60 of them. And I'll look at that. And, uh, some of them are more easily seen than others, but you can clearly see variations.
You can see things missing here at it here. You can see that there's a difference there. And to me, that seems like it should matter if we're going to talk about inerrancy, if we're going to talk about perfect. And I guess that this might be a good time for you to come in and discuss, you know, how YouTube view inerrancy in terms of what that means. Cause I think at least for most people who are LDS, we see inerrancy as error free, you know, the, the literal meaning of the term, although it seems that within the Christian tradition, that might not be the case or it might be something similar to that. You guys have thoughts on that?
Yeah, I'll jump in real quick. Um, so yeah, there's a lot, a lot you said there that I appreciate, um, kind of laying the groundwork for the discussion because, uh, I was kind of going to bring up exactly what you already just said about how, uh, you could say that Joseph Smith, it seems like the way he used the word translate from what we know of what he said is very fluid. So it's very vague and kind of, uh, yeah, it's not, it's not very hard line, like you said. So that's why it's difficult for, to really answer yes or no to your question where if there's any Christian that would disagree with that, you know, because it really requires having, you know, a defined set of terms, you know, someone. So like you said, if we use the term translates mean, like you take the original language, you know, so the scriptures are written in, in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and you translate in such a way that the, in the original intent or the original meaning of the text is conveyed in the target language. And I think, uh, and it's done so accurately than I think Christians would agree that, yes, that's, you know, you can consider that to be the word of God. Um, but a lot of times it seems like, at least in my experience, when we talk about translation of texts or, you know, uh, maybe you've experienced it, but I mean, I think I've probably even used it when I taught in Sunday school too is like the telephone game, you know, when we talk about this article of faith, it's like, well, you know, someone makes a copy, makes a copy. And then by the time you get to the end, you have no idea what the original said kind of thing. And that's kind of conflated with the idea of translation, but that's more like that's more properly called transmission when you write copies of texts.
So yeah, it gets a little bit muddy because sometimes, you know, those issues, translation and transmission are conflated, but those are, they're related, but they're not the same thing. So yeah. Um, I think properly defined, I think Christians would agree with that statement. Oh, you have any thoughts?
No, I agree. I think, um, there's, there's even a, uh, an article in the Chicago statement on biblical inerrancy, which we'll get to a little bit later that I think is pretty well aligned with that first part of, of the eighth article of faith. Um, and you know, I think one of the experiences I had when I was, um, it was after I had left the LDS church, I was, I was kind of starting to discuss, uh, Mormonism online. I had spent, you know, a decade or more discussing Mormonism online with, um, you know, kind of a broad group of people at belief net.com in the early two thousands and then, um, did so with some of the same people, uh, at navoo.com, which was a discussion board that, um, Orson Scott card had put up. I don't know if you're familiar with him as an author.
Um, he wrote, yeah, yeah, exactly. He had a, well, he had a, he had a website. I'm trying to remember what it was called hat rack river, I think is what it was called for his writings, but then he had navoo.com, which was a discussion board about Mormonism. So discussed a lot of stuff there. And then several of us migrated to a private, uh, discussion board, um, where we, uh, continued to kind of hash out, uh, questions and things that we wanted to talk about. There was a lot of, uh, a lot of fear back then still about, you know, what happened with September six.
And, um, you know, if you, if you get caught talking about certain things, are you going to get, uh, disfellowshipped or ask communicated. So we went private for a while. Um, but I remember when I first left the LDS church, I was starting to discuss with people on Facebook, kind of for the first time as an outsider, um, you know, kind of looking at, at, uh, LDS faith and practice and scripture and stuff from, from, uh, an outside view. And I met, uh, a guy, uh, named Jared Anderson. Um, he was a Mormon scholar who had studied at BYU and then went on to study, uh, at university of North Carolina, uh, with, um, under Bart Ehrman was his, was his doctoral advisor. And, um, you know, Jared was, was good to me. He, you know, asked me some good questions. We had some good conversations about his view, his views of inspiration and revelation as he was trying to wrestle through what, what Joseph Smith was doing. Um, and, you know, he kind of advised me as I, as I made plans to go to seminary. Um, but I remember having a conversation with him after reading some of his writings on, about inspiration and revelation about inerrancy, because it seemed to me at the time, uh, that inerrancy was kind of a position that, that Christians kind of had to take. So it was one that I just kind of adopted and was like, well, yeah, Bible's in there.
Right. Um, and he asked me some, some pointed questions about it. And I remember once I kind of got into studying in seminary and reading through the Chicago statement and, and thinking through what, what the doctrine of inerrancy is. Um, I realized that a lot of times there's some, um, misunderstandings even, even among people, uh, like Jared, who, who had gotten a doctorate on what exactly Christians are, are affirming when they're, when they're talking about biblical inerrancy.
And so you and I, uh, talked about, you know, that it's, it's, uh, related to the autographs, right. The original writings. So it's kind of like what, um, what Joseph Smith was talking about when he said, you know, that he believes the Bible as it fell from the pens of the original Hebrew authors. Right.
That's the idea, right. And it's, and it really is a, it really is a theological presupposition, right. That, that flows from God's perfection, right?
God is perfect and all powerful. So he can communicate with, uh, humans, uh, in a way that will be perfect. We'll be, we'll get his point across perfectly. Right.
That's the idea. Um, so that's, that's kind of one misunderstanding is like, um, you know, as we've kind of been talking about there's, there's many translations, like you were saying, like when you look at Bible gateway, there's a lot of different English translations, uh, let alone other languages. Um, and a lot of times Christians or, or, or Latter-day Saints maybe think, well, if there's, if there's differences in the translations, isn't that a problem for inerrancy? Um, but rightly understood again, that the doctrine is related to the autographs. Um, so it's the idea that God can communicate to people perfectly in the way that he wants done. Um, so that's kind of one, one, uh, misunderstanding that I came across as I was kind of making the transition out and having conversations with Latter-day Saints. Um, any thoughts on that?
No, I think that's useful. I mean, I guess I have a hard time seeing how that puts, puts the traditional Christian in any different position than the Latter-day Saint with the book of Mormon, because we don't have access to the autographs. We don't have access to the original book of Mormon. I mean, at least here, we have belief that an angel came and confirmed it witnesses who say they did, whether or not you believe them, that's kind of up to you.
But I mean, if we're always kind of chasing the perfection of this autograph that we don't have, and almost certainly never will have, how does that, you know, what kind of foundation is that? I guess, how does it not become just a tautology of reinforcing one view over another? If that makes any sense?
Yeah, it does make sense. Um, for me, uh, as I've studied through it, where, where I feel I'm in a better position as a Christian, um, is that there are thousands of ancient manuscripts, uh, for the new Testament. Uh, there's, there's well over 500 or 5,800 manuscripts for the new Testament. Um, there's many manuscripts for the old Testament writings as well. Um, and as, as scholars do what what's called textual criticism, you know, comparing the manuscripts, seeing where there are variants and there are variants.
Um, but, you know, they can, they can pick compare where there are variants and that, and that work began very early. Like if you think about the church father origin, right. And when he created the hexapla, which it would be amazing if we had that, but we don't. Um, but his idea there was take the Septuagint, which was the Greek old Testament that the Christians used, uh, compare it with the Hebrew scriptures. Uh, and he had several versions of the Hebrew scriptures. Uh, and then he had some other, uh, versions of the Hebrew Bible and other languages as well. So basically the hexapla, six columns side by side, um, multi-volume work of the entire Hebrew Bible. Um, so Christians have been doing, uh, quote unquote, textual criticism for a long time. Um, because again, the, the, the idea is that God speaks to people, uh, and what he says and, and, and reveals, uh, and inspires his prophets and apostles to write, uh, is scripture and is God's word.
So, uh, understanding, trying to get back to that original is important. Um, and so, you know, for me, um, where I, like I said, where I feel I'm in a better position as a Christian is there are those, those there's that manuscript history. Whereas for the book of Mormon, that manuscript history doesn't exist. Uh, the plates were said to exist, but we can't, we can't, um, examine them. And then there's no manuscript history of what was on the plates prior to that, that can be examined either.
Yeah. I mean, I might push back a little bit on that because we have a printer's manuscript and we have the original scribal manuscripts about a third of it. I think we have left the original handwritten.
There's really good work by Royal Skousen, I believe is his name who, uh, he's gone through those documents and compared them. Very interesting stuff in terms of what changes Joseph made right after the initial translation, what updates were made. But, um, I mean, I guess where my mind goes in hearing that explanation, my first thought is let's just hypothetically suppose Joseph Smith lived a thousand years earlier and every, and everything happened the same, but there wasn't a printing press. So all of the book of Mormon copies were done by hand. And then a thousand years later, we came and found all those copies again with some variants, but there'd be thousands and thousands of them. How would that be any different than the new Testament in that regard? Yeah. I think the difference for me is that with the book of Mormon, um, what you have Joseph Smith saying is, uh, I found some golden plates, uh, by eight of them of an angel and those golden plates contained writings of ancient prophets. And so it's, it's the manuscripts of the writings of the ancient prophets that are non-existent that, that is problematic to me. So it'd be kind of like the book of the law that was found during Josiah's reform in the temple that kind of became Deuteronomy essentially.
Yeah. If that makes any sense, it does make sense. Um, I would say if you want like an, uh, um, a more correct analog to what Christians are talking about with the writings of the prophets and the apostles, I would say it'd probably be what Joseph Smith produced as the doctrine and covenants, right? He's where he's directly serving as the prophet receiving the revelation. Now I certainly get that, you know, the, the, uh, the argument is that he did the same thing with the book of Mormon. Um, but, but the book of Mormon itself and, and Joseph Smith's claim for it is that it, that it's an ancient record. Uh, so the claim is that Nephi and Alma and all of those people actually existed. Um, so I, I would want to see their writings.
You know what I mean? Like that theirs would be the autograph is what I'm saying. Like, like Smith's is just a translation. So if, uh, how would you know what to look for? I guess is the next question there, you know, like, like let's say, let's say someone like John Sorenson finds writings in my end, the reflect, you know, something found in the book of Mormon, how would you know if that's equivalent to a textual very, you will find for the new Testament, different languages, things like that, you know, how would one even know about that? I mean, I think if, if, if John Sorenson found a fragment of a writing that aligned with the writings of Alma, for example, um, that'd be very convincing, but, um, nothing like that has been found. So are you familiar with the story of Zozimus or Zosimus?
Have either of you heard of that? It's, it's a very interesting document you'll have to look into. So this is something that was found, uh, back in the old world. And, uh, it's a document dating to roughly Lehi's time and it pretty much matches the initial, uh, Exodus out of the old world for the Nephites and Lehiites with very specific markers that are just really strikingly similar. And, uh, you know, LDS scholars are kind of, aren't sure what to make of the whole thing.
Cause like, how would he have the same revelation Lehi had when Lehi supposedly left? But anyway, uh, something for you guys to consider, maybe I'll do a post about that in our group sometime. Yeah. It sounds a little bit familiar. Um, years ago I read, um, it's a book put out by farms. I want to say it was called, uh, book of Mormon authorship revisited or something like that.
And it had, there was a collection of, of articles by various, uh, scholars with farms. Um, it may have been covered in that book. Yeah.
That's probably where it would be if it weren't. So, okay. Well, did you guys have anything that we, that we missed or that you wanted to kind of get into a detail there? So, yeah, I wanted to ask, um, with regards to the article of faith eight specifically. So, um, you know, the first part, we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. Um, we also believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God. What are your thoughts on why the, as far as it is translated correctly is not tagged onto the book of Mormon as well?
Sure. You know, that's interesting. And I, uh, I mean, Joseph certainly didn't pretend like the book of Mormon was perfect. He was very upfront saying that this is the best I could do.
If I had more time, I'd do it again. And he, he was constantly making revisions even later into his life. So there's certainly not a supposition of inerrancy on the part of the book of Mormon. I almost think we just kind of take it as for granted that we need to translate it properly. My guess is that the reason that first part was left in for the Bible and not for the book of Mormon is because we're the only faith that used the book of Mormon at all. Whereas other faiths would use the Bible interpreted in different ways. And so it's like, it's not very useful to you if you're reading it in such a way that removes the meaning kind of thing. Whereas with the book of Mormon, that wasn't an issue, obviously at the time the church started, but that's just pure speculation on my part.
Okay. Matthew, any questions? Um, so yeah, I don't know if we wanted to get into talking about maybe specifics about, uh, inerrancy or infallibility infallibility, or if you wanted to go further along and talk about that, you know, uh, in terms of like what it means to be infallible and inerrant, um, there there's even discussions amongst Christians as to what that means.
I read a really interesting book by, uh, man, what's his name? He's one, he's one of the, uh, big advocates or he was, he passed away of the, what they call the ecclesiastical text. So it's kind of similar to the King James only movement, but, uh, they're more of like a Texas Receptus, uh, preferred for those who don't know, listeners who don't know, uh, Texas Receptus is the name that was given to the text that was used as the basis for the King James translation. So they did, they actually did do textual criticism when they were, when the King James translators were, you know, they were translating the King James Bible. So like anytime you're using an ancient text, it's unavoidable that you're going to use textual criticism. So they had several Greek new Testament texts from Stephanist, Beza and Erasmus. And so they kind of use these texts that they're based as the basis for the, uh, King James translation.
And then when they made all their textual decisions, you know, in terms of variants, that final, you know, that text that they used was called the Texas Receptus. So he was kind of an advocate, uh, for this idea that the churches that, um, that's the basic text, although not exactly the basic text that was transmitted through time as like the ecclesiastical text being like, that's the text that the church uses. And, um, and he, uh, doesn't like the word inner. He thinks that that's not a good word to use that we should be talking about infallibility. Um, because in the sense that, yeah, he admits that there are textual variants in the texts, you know, in the various manuscripts, but ultimately most of those textual variants don't really have any significance in terms of doctrine, you know? So for him, he wanted to talk about that in terms of like, well, the texts we have, you know, whether these are added by copyist errors or whatever, they don't ultimately change anything.
So why does it matter that every single letter is perfect? But then if you think about it in another way, a lot of people say, well, infallibility is an even stricter, uh, definition than inerrancy because inerrancy means that it is without error and infallibility can mean that it is impossible to err. So there's a lot, there's a lot of even debate in the Christian world about that, but I think, um, maybe when we go through the Chicago statement, it'll, you know, it actually defines what it means. Um, I think that's important because like, like Paul saying earlier, I think there's a lot of mis, you know, a misunderstanding is what, uh, infallibility and inerrancy actually mean, you know, um, that we're talking about the autographs, we're talking about the original languages. Um, and so, and, and we're, we're not saying every single transmitted copy, not every, every copied manuscript is in error because there could be, I mean, there's plenty of textual variants. There's more variants of the new Testament than there are words in the new test. So every, every time there's a misspelling error, that's, that's a variant. And every time they, they skip over a word, that's a variant. So, I mean, there's variants all over the place, which is why textual criticism is so important because you have all these different lines of transmission and then you can see, oh, they missed a word here. They misspelled it, you know, and even back then, you know, it's not the spelling wasn't as systematized as it is today. You know, so, so there's a lot of reasons why variants exists and you could make a whole program about that, but I just kind of want to bring up, um, just kind of introduce that, I guess.
Yeah, no, that's, that's good. I've kind of found that, um, and I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I feel like a lot of kind of lay Christians have a much stronger view of inerrancy than maybe Christians who've gone to school, who've delved into scriptural, uh, you know, literal criticism a little bit more, uh, like for example, you know, I'll encounter people online who say, you know, every single word of the Bible word for word is exactly perfect kind of thing. Uh, or even we'll use it to defend against science or something, but they're really kind of two different trends altogether.
Whereas I'll look at someone like William Lane Craig, he has an interesting interview. I found where he, he kind of puts inerrancy as a corollary of inspiration and he, he kind of defines it as on the, on the edges of one's testimony. Like it's not super important to care about inerrancy so much as it is to care about Christ. And I don't know how much of that is maybe him, um, you know, kind of couching the language, but that to me feels like a lot more like what the LDS would view in terms of inerrancy inspiration, something that has been, uh, influenced by God in some way.
Yeah. I think, yeah, that's, that's a good thing to bring brought, bring up, um, because yeah, there are, there are people in it. I don't think William Lane Craig is one of them, but there are people who will take a little limited inerrancy view, which is kind of the view that the Bible is inerrant as it speaks on, uh, salvation, uh, and topics related to salvation. But when it comes to the creation of the world, for example, where there's a lot of, uh, debate about, you know, it does, is the Bible reliable with what it says about creation, uh, and, and people compare it with scientific understandings. Um, so people will say they'll take that limited inerrancy view where it's, it's inerrant when it comes to salvation, but it's not inerrant, not necessarily inerrant when it comes to other topics. Um, what I would say about that is, um, the doctrine of inerrancy actually does include other topics, right? The doctrine of inerrancy says that the Bible is, does not err on anything it says about any topic. Um, now where, where I may, uh, be a little bit different than, uh, some other people that you might speak to is, is, is I'm a biblical studies guy.
That's, that's what I studied in, in, in my master's degree. So, um, I'm not, although I took systematic theology courses, um, I'm not a systematic guy. So when it comes to, when it comes to say the creation of the world, um, I, you know, inerrancy doesn't mean that the way we've always, or the way that, you know, some Christians have always understood, uh, what the Bible is saying there is inherent, right? It means that what, what is communicated there, uh, by God is inerrant. Uh, even if it doesn't align with scientific understandings, maybe it's not meant to exactly right, but it's still inerrant in what it's saying about who God is as creator.
So, uh, understanding the cultures into which God spoke is really important, uh, for a biblical studies guy like me. Yeah. I think that's a very, very basic point of view.
Absolutely. Um, so it's a little bit different from the limited, uh, inerrancy view. It's more of just like a contextual inerrancy, I guess. I don't know how you would describe it though. That's a nice description there.
I think I would say LDS would be fully on board with that as well. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking, send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it. If you give the page alike, we also have an outer brightness group on Facebook, where you can join and interact with us and others as we've discussed the podcast, past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, et cetera. You can also send us an email at outer brightness at gmail.com. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to outer brightness wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're benefiting from our content, please write a review to help us spread the word. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and hit that notification bell. Music for outer brightness is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and Adams road.
You can learn more about Adams road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. On the cross where he bore sin. And now I have the righteousness that is by faith in Jesus' name. I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus.
For who's sake, I have lost all things. Oh, because of the cross. On the cross, Jesus took away the written code.
The law of words that stood opposed and nailed it there for me. And through the cross, he put to death hostility. And did his body reconcile us to God and brought us peace. And I am crucified with Christ. And I no longer live, but he lives in me. I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus.
For who's sake, I have lost all things. Oh, for when I came, Jesus, it was worth the cost. On my righteousness, I count as a loss because of the cross. Some demand a sign, and some seek to be wise. But we preach Christ crucified.
A stumbling bottle of sun, the foolishness of God. But wiser than the wisest man, the power of the cross. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord, through which the world has been crucified to me. And I tell the world, so I take up my cross and follow where Jesus leads. So I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus. For who's sake, I have lost all things. Oh, for when I came, Jesus, it was worth the cost. On my righteousness, I count as a loss because of the cross. Because of the cross, because of the cross.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-09-02 21:26:50 / 2023-09-02 21:53:30 / 27