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Exploring Biblical Inerrancy, Pt. 2 (w/ Steve James)

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August 22, 2021 11:38 am

Exploring Biblical Inerrancy, Pt. 2 (w/ Steve James)

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August 22, 2021 11:38 am

In this episode, Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul continue the conversation with Steve James. In this second installment, we continue the conversation of the eighth LDS Article of Faith as it relates to the claim in 1 Nephi Chapter 8 in the Book of Mormon that plain and precious truths were removed from the Bible after the Early Church received the Hebrew Bible from the Jewish people, we talk about translations (JST vs. ESV), other modern books that claim to be revealed Scripture, proper definitions for the terms “inspiration” and “revelation,” and the concept of Biblical authors “borrowing” from source texts (e.g. Ancient Near Eastern texts).

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Your right and fireplace protuberance Christmas to James would pick up where we left off last time. Hope you enjoy. Yes, just a couple more questions shirts article for so you*are there any Christians who don't believe the first part of it. I guess I would ask you, do you believe the first part of it. Given first Nephi 1313. You know what's happened to the Bible and will explore a few things done in detail what is only a few really obvious errors in bubble to the top reading, I think, understand that certain things are A little beneath part of what translated correctly means, but that's a reason why we have to stay just a practice because of the corruption Of the text and is also a crutch and have them both before and after the New Testament, not something that Larry said sometimes don't remember if I thought about corruption in his time during inter-testament. It's all talk for itself so that people are compatible when when Nephi's writing and and talking about the Bible going forth impurity from the Jews and Gentiles in first Nephi chapter 13 and that after coaster goes to the Gentiles to the great abominable church. The swing plane and precious truths are taken out what what plain and precious truths. Do you believe are taken out with all my just because the priest something that we now know scholars know that Dowson practice up until the Exodus called Israelite Rex priest at all men were patriarchs of the family is sacrificing the rules priest you know what we can learn about the suffering Messiah.

So there's a lot of work being done by Christians regarding what's things that move the Jewish Scriptures to things that you'll find a cheap direct on that level as to powers in heaven and suffering Messiah multiple teachings over within Judaism at the time they were, stripped out right before right around the time Christ came and there are richer fathers like us talk about him what to play with some of the doctors I found missing. I think that in the early church that Is the chasm, which was sort of like an initiatory someone well the aspects.

Today's initiatory's dominance. I think a lot of temple work stuff in general have been stripped from Scriptures another that comes to mind is aspects of Christ's grace that pertains to healing and suffering. We called 20 grace and healing grace, but more explicitly told that all the pains and afflictions were also experienced in the garden so that you know how to heal us, whereas that's not really seeing Christianity. And I don't know of a verse in the Bible that explicitly comes out and says that I need to have a better checklist list those are a few doctrines that I had been stripped out.

I think the organization and hierarchy. You think that those things were actively stripped out.

I guess we actively you think scribes moved to whether intentional or not, that's not really my place to say what I can say is that we have now is not there in the Scriptures now so if it ever was there to been removed on the reason why we know that there's stuff that it was more the stairs because you see in the early church practices are done today are at least close to what you believe or at least outstanding say general feel to them. And so when you see things like that you know that it is believed that they didn't make the cut so they can unintentionally read that was done just accidentally. I'm not really sure and I don't know what I'm place to judge that the Deuteronomy 35 84. We talked about it where it says sons of Israel are assessments of God in the original Dead Sea Scrolls is God, whereas a lot translations a sense of Israel where in particular, I do not think that could've been done by accident. I don't think that the words of human Israel that whatever close enough to where we could really say God is just a mistake, especially given how Jews were so for lack of better animal angle about how the copy description of the statement to start all over again. It seems hard for me to think that particular change that we know happened was done purely accidentally. You mentioned a lot there. I think the one you want. I would kinda touch on his election chrism. That's a practice still but still part of the Eastern Orthodox rights is one of their sacraments, and it aligns with the Roman Catholic confirmation right so those are things that are still still kind of there for me as I that I think about my first Nephi 13 and in the claims that are made, there are for biblical studies guy who really is interested in in the text of the manuscript in the history of I think you have to have evidence that the things were stripped out and when it comes to the New Testament know with the with the manuscript evidence we have just don't see a lot stripped out and see like you were saying a couple of things that the scholars think well this might've been added at a later date because it doesn't show up in the earliest manuscript we find you really, really close fidelity to you within the manuscript to each other throughout is as good as they trace them back. The vast majority of variance are our grammatical work spelling type errors. So yeah I just think if if the claim is that there were these plain and precious truths removed and I would want to see manuscript evidence for where the where those were emitted by doing or saying about the name Elohim and you and I will probably agree a lot on on that topic if we ran down that road, but okay so three or four really quick to test the examples that I would jump to as evidence is was removed first is there's a letter from Paul to Corinth a lot of people, considerable loss epistle exhibits referenced but it never appears in the record 140 day ministry of Christ which can receive lots of reference honesty. For that show up in the record at all. Judy where you actually have a reference to a prophecy given by enough that's found in the book of the word of it the same exact prophecy being fulfilled in Jude but they take was that one specific prophecy and there are evangelical scholars who done the work of looking into eating found a lot more connections to New Testament writings which you know when you read work of some of my Kaiser. I know I can come up a lot. He's a guy's been advocating taken out or otherwise best with another good non-LDS source V Margaret Parker probably drop you name a time or two in the chest. She's a Methodist scholars expertise and New Testament image adjustments.

And she has a great article worshiping, which takes the beginning of the book of Mormon compared to what was usually what was going on forges that perform essential match interesting scholarships to three but excess of the vessels for its own podcast so could my memory. The third missing letter Paul Jude was there when you mentioned from the New Testament 40 day ministry for the ministry.

So what I would say about those three first to the missing letter Paul, there are some scholars who believe that it that it's actually integrated into I think second Corinthians. There is some some scholarship around the idea that," we have access to the last I looked at it. I think it second conveys publishing scholarship around the idea that there's a portion of second Corinthians that looks like it may not fit the rest of the incident.

Looks like maybe describe combined together right so that's there's that Jude and first Enoch I'm enforcing it is really important to understanding your second Temple Judaism and what the people of that time. Believed side. I don't do this not problematic to me that you quotes from from first eunuch I would say that doesn't necessarily mean that the other groups considered first Enoch to be Scripture because you look up all when he's preaching in any quotes from from the Greek homes right is not quoting the good poems of Scripture is making a point to his listeners from from something they believe in something that that's important to them, so you could be doing the same thing was the third 120 day ministry 40 day ministry so that comes up that comes up a lot in Gnostic writings, which are later so no yes they used a lot but does that mean that it was originally part of the New Testament. It doesn't look that way from from the manuscript evidence but else we see in the New Testament, so the mysteries and in the things that the Gnostics held to that battle comes, later in the second century and onward, and then began to write the 40 day ministry was a big part of that. I know she doubly wrote pensively on that but knows it is a Christian, I would say I don't think that that the Gnostics fall early enough to to believe that that was a big part of early Christianity Gnostic righty would qualify as New Testament lease lectures give us an example of the people believe things and reteaching things about the 40 day ministry using records that we don't have that makes any sense is evidence that there was something being taught that we don't have any more rather not sweat those Gnostics were saying I think is a different discussion altogether is there's a really great series by Michael Kruger is is is really an expert in the Canon 7-Eleven New Testament is he's written two books on the Canon and he has free video series.

We talked about the Canon. He talks about the Gnostic Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas, where do you supposedly kill somebody with a rock. I think I was three different there's three different versions of sex only kept tripped over animal or pushed in war. Iraq is something to look at the other somewhere start talks well enough they got why they weren't rejected, either because you know it was still the second century there were people who knew people who knew the apostles or themselves and also because they lived up to the 80s and 90s will John. John did so me know if they found is new, but nobody heard of. You obviously knew that it wasn't written by the original authors of Scripture so there's a lot of reasons why they reject the Gnostic Gospels or or if they just came in the third or fourth string this too late to be sure and out to the original so yeah there's there's a lot of discussion you talk about the Canon by some rejected but but yeah I don't think that's an indication that no discussion we can compare that to like say the woman taken in adultery. That's one of the major sexual variance in the New Testament because there are some people take some magical scholars a take the opinion that it is original X a lot do because it was it's in early texts, but it's not the same place. It's kind of indifferent different areas of John, or even in a different gospel is like a story that they didn't know that moved yeah and then but some people say it was an oral history oral stories passed down the church that was added later.

There's different ideas about that where the you know that there's evidence that it was historical but not canonical that make sense is the Gnostic Gospels. There's really no indication or evidence that there are of the same caliber. It seems like they're all kind of like Michael Kruger talks about he's like you know people Gnostics the love secret knowledge of the whole note so they see these gaps in the Gospels fill that up for some awesome print self image that it would also attach names apostles or Thomas or Peter or Gnostic Gospels to give them more clout so they were stupid graphical yeah you know that the attached different into itself. So it's not quite the same essay is that the case of a woman taken in adultery as much to the Gnostic Gospels, is to know why that would buy the former would be reliable in the Gnostic Gospels, long-winded, but that no further listeners hear this. This episode of pride be a little bit challenging for some work going kind of fun fun things with them.

These are questions that for Latter Day Saints or former Latter Day Saints Arcana burning questions. I know for me when I was when I was kinda coming out of the LDS church he died. I hope to a lot of similar views that you cannot hold Steve like you know I will, that the Bible was corrected.

There's things missing from the Canon so I kinda gravitated to scholars, like our men, Robert and prize you know picked up some of their books from half-price books and spent a lot of time in there and I really wanted to know you if i'm to be christian is is the bible reliable unicycle i've read part remains things, early christianity's biggest colleges was books and jack assist his whole argument in that book is that there wasn't one early christianity will in many were lost. christianity's biggest call than if the companion book that is lost scriptures. of course i would agree with him on that there there are various groups, just as there were various jewish sects at the time there were various sex that claims to be followers of jesus. so the question is what goes back to the apostles and so i got heavily read determine i've read the description scripture is a big important work almost those books that pushed me to to look further right and and read some books on canon.

the Information and what one thing i would say about canon because matthew was touching on that is that you know one of the big questions coming out of the discovery of the dead sea scrolls was no is the canon expand is a canon of the old testament expanded by finding what the essenes had should should there be more books in that in the old testament canon of what we have come to us through the masoretic text right and interesting thing to say about that is if you look at my bookshelf which is behind you don't see it as a tremor logo you i've got the nod hammadi library on my bookshelf. i've got several books of the apocrypha got the full dead sea scrolls on my bookshelf. so just because something is in someone's library doesn't mean that that person or group considered to be scripture right and so that's that's also the important question to answer when you're when you're studying the bible is, is there a player. is there a way that book authors kind of especially new testament authors indicate that they are referencing referencing what they consider to be scripture and is there when the women reference something like first unit that that tag public as it is written doesn't show up so i know this is Similar associates along kind of thing where people tackle qualifiers when speaking to me.

i think we rely on the fruit of the spirit discern ultimately what was really, truly truth of what split.

what's more interesting.

maybe some yeah okay so anything else. on the other.

i don't think so. i think people go with your outline so one question i have is is the jsc. adjust the translation just as true as the esp, i would say no. my reasoning being an american sound like a broken record, as is the manuscript evidence so that the jst joseph smith agostino scholars everyone of what he was doing there. some some scholarship coming out of byu and interpreter foundations trying to refute it, that he might've been referencing adam clarke's commentary and some yeah yes that clark and after reading the response that i'm actually really heavily swayed the direction that i have is the response. take a look at that, but in any case the r lds church.

we had that the manuscript of what he did there with the bible for many many years know they, when they published a cult of the inspired version applications that are being met that he was inspired to make corrections to the biblical text. some lds scholars tie that back to first nephi 13 and suggest that what he was doing that was restoring the text as it as it was when it fell from the pan and again i like to see manuscript evidence to scholars who have looked at this very closely that matthews robert is one of the ones who were one of the big books on that they admit there's not manuscript evidence for the changes that he made so the esp bill seeks to be a literal translation right select a one for one. this is what the this is what the word is in hebrew or clique or aramaic, and this is what the best english equivalent to that is.

and so there are various models of trevor bible translation for uniform once the end of the spectrum from try to be a literal word for word translation to the other end of the spectrum being like a paraphrase like the message. this message, you know i i actually like the message i like reading the message for daily devotional because the language is more poetic.

it's it's putting kind of event.

in today's vernacular. i don't read it for theological inspiration. you know i read it for understanding god's love for us right so there are various uses for the various models of translation. i would even call. i wouldn't call the message of translation runs a paraphrase is not is not seeking to represent what except grace represent one-for-one translation so so where the esp is seeking to be that one-for-one the jst commentary you just kind of the way it's being explained. now, in ways that commentary. so i guess my question for you on that would be what what do you think of effort to how many verses that is 13 or something like that. the justice that added to genesis 15 we did is so for the future exactly yeah that's actually just a great example of how he saw translation where he knows that this prophecy exists because of this translation book of mormon. i don't know. he understood it at the time it was being written, but he eventually learn that and so when he is my voice is all i got update after that in there. he added a lot to me. the entire book of moses was essentially similar to that.

it just was so long that it became its own book and so i think that when joseph looked at translation definitely wasn't like you know this is the greek word what is the english for the functional translation warrant. but in terms of the bible. he was clearly seeking clarity, so he would go in this passage rex had biased talking about all. but it doesn't say is right on their offices talk about all there should be no question about it. so i think he was actually seeking more to really get dr. and mortgage. the mortgage frameworks the doctrine of the church. so for the sake of that time because back then were a lot more diverse nebulae. there's a lot of Lucky things people were teaching itself is a way to correct them.

i think i was just intent. but you will never know, you would see would say that that was more of a commentary that was me is this evident was original and because it gets book of mormon so mean, i guess you're saying that she wrote the book more nutritional sale of the book of moses think he was looking out like this belongs here because of the grief you say not. this belongs here because this part of the prophecy dismissing okay yeah it's it's interesting there's another case to them and think it's maybe seven or eight revelation given to him about john you know that that's written on explained what it was exactly yeah yeah but he didn't actually have it anything but that one like i just had to retreat ancient text as possible. the book of mormon translation went down in a similar way, you know specific verbiage.prewritten document or something like that.

yeah, he was a senior and that's part of the gift of this year's see things from antiquity or from whatever and so that's how i assume that rather not. i was always untranslated case yeah yeah explained that i wanted to can ask about like how if you could, you know, like yourself, and summoned in the opposite side shoes and see know why that could be seen as like you know claiming revelation from a source, a written source access to be seen as difficult to believe that you know the entire story of front and is difficult to believe you know if you're really good at taking seriously. moses parting the red sea has a difficult thing to believe joseph i think looking at ways to approach scripture, that he did it so many different ways that it's kind of fun to see discuss for the book of mormon fiasco book of moses.

yes no source of the book of abraham.

he has a source that he's going back and inked into an adding things to it so it's interesting to see the different means that he was able to bring about stuff in the overall made one of the things that i think helps bolster the testimony for a lot of the same studies is recognizing the correspondences.

joseph continues to make with ancient documents to further back, go the more we learn, the more complex he is for certain things.

that's how humans have to be the luckiest guesser in all of history to have gone so much so precisely right that's, but thoughts: yeah so in terms of the correspondences for me and a lot of goodly. he does lot of parallel or maybe the correspondences to me. don't don't rise to the level of demonstrable to the to the point where i think there there convincing benefits are debated. the debate we did with the private with dennis on the book of a job or not but i brought up the so back is mentioned in adam clark. which is it is a commentary that he had access to reporting to the historical record so it's not that kind of economic correspondence is not surprising to see.

i think i guess i would ask questions like if there were someone in the second century who produced a writing that claims to be a prophecy of themselves, would you find that convincing why or why not a lot of what the old testament is isaiah's prophecy just going to be a prophet right, but not but not not claiming to produce an ancient prophecy of their own work right all sec not saying my disfigurement is probably examples of that.

i have to look and see today. i guess that i never thought of it that way before.

it says it should be happy she would get away yes always feel like that, as well as the criticism with regards to what the seer is that definition from the book of mormon right is where there is where smith gives us that so again is it predates them. if if the book of mormon is a major record ration right but not the definition of what is fear is that the kindness given in the book of mormon to me is kind of circular say smith is a seer according to the definition of what a serious look and i'm pretty sure that's pretty common view of the proceedings. yeah, i know that the high priest your deal you something that they use in a way very similar to what joseph did all that's ever described as being seer activity or not, but i think that naturalist you do you know an end debate without brett, i thought that people have different assumptions landed in different places. the more compelling part is just the correspondences with abraham but it's the details of something you don't mind the fact that when joseph produced this later. it was absurd, and yet now we have all these other writing novels literate. he actually wrote this book, he taught astronomy. he did all these things and just as easy for us to forget that we know more now than they did back then. there's definitely some propose correspondences to like second thing that were known and joseph stay in terms of them being an astronomer that's josephus so readily and so i hear a lot of joseph you having source available to them any evidence that you actually like These things.

some things are published later but joseph was reading on 45 Joseph St. Josephus does not know there's not not historical evidence of that, and that's to be fair that's that's the critique that a lot of apologists make up of my position because there's not someone saying hey you this, or you have that but I also would argue that there probably were people in the room all the time.

That's very likely we know Emma was in and out so it's is it so here's what I want to say I don't come from a position of Joseph Smith producing what he produced by supernatural means is impossible. I don't come from that precipitous presupposition but I do come from the view that what he produced does not have any any archaeological or manuscript support prior to him.

He produces it he makes claims for what it is but nothing exists prior to him to show that it actually is what he claims some time either podcast roster discuss unit. Specifically, Mickey just how Joseph was able actually going out to variants of an ancient name or character within the next three notches while before they were ever published.


You call it the most the most testable for itself here, so let me see the good are we running so in discussing Bible translation. Matthew 522.1st contains a section of pending mistranslation you cannot say without a cause you ever hate that without cause.

That's one of those things that's been found to be a later addition, if you look at all the translation to find out about only 14 of the 60 or so I have to do in their so and I'm sure that if you look at the literary criticism we find later. That's okay will have can't be the same exact amount of truth as the 46 whatever that don't have it right because one of them has a falsehood within it is mentioned in the book of Mormon correctly does not have to that addition and so you know, even though it is in the KJV, so you know I hear a lot of Joseph copy to KJV when someone actually looks at the book of Mormon Isaiah content Matthew content versus that's in the KJV defined differences. This being one of that is at least interesting. How do you know about that particular part when he was page residence, but I guess going back to the infallibility 14 at half that are can't be considered the exact same amount of truth is the ones that talk correctly that makes any sense if you could resend the question so you mean like one with so so the transition has this later because that was added later.

It cannot be the exact same amount of true as a version that does have does not happen correctly if that makes any sense alike because this is less true than this one doesn't have is something you would agree with my just grasping at straws here. I would say that it based on textile criticism that we can demonstrate very high-level backers. The text is added that it reflects less accurately text that's kind of how he stated yes I would. So for me as a guy who's committed to the idea that God inspired the original text. I'm okay with textual criticism, leading us to areas where we find that certain phrases are not in the earliest manuscripts and I think the closer we get severely expanded Greek manuscripts the better because I would say on that thing I would say on on that on your comment on the book of Mormon, not including it is that Adam Clark on his commentary on verse 22 does very explicitly talk about the fact that that clause is not included in and is very questionable. So Joseph Smith had referenced the clerk makes a super early Bible of the song say you can't make the argument you could Joseph had the Bible somehow secretly studied it new with specific skills to do a memorized so that when he's looking into a hat, say Same person that probably not shift the needle that much, but who I find it interesting that in the years since the LDS church is published pictures of the seer stone in this kind of change the narrative on how the translation was was done in terms of looking at a rock and had not died. I'm old enough to remember that that was that was condemned as is anti-Mormon lad felt that way.

I was never taught about sex and Mormon was also having paintings and stuff.

It was conveyed in a very different way. I agree with that reference the books that I pulled off my father's self that were old phobias apologetics books they really sought to discredit the idea that Joseph Smith was brought up on on glass looking charges until Wesley Walters found a 226 court records was so I just find it interesting that, like the I'm not criticizing you. It's just something that I find interesting because people will say to me now when I'm when I say when I try to make the case love Smith might have referenced other materials. The say well, like you said Howdy reference I will never memorize it while looking at and a rock and a hat. Where's that that kind of apologetic never would've been given many years ago should change our apologetics will Make now I think it actually makes Joseph Casey's and stronger because of these copy to KJV he's memorizing it and reselling will staring into nothingness that I have some question about that right. So in essence what you have there is is Smith doing, what something more akin to automatic writing writing standing and it is there you had at the rock and he's writing is dictating what is given to them. So you have some something like the Duranty a book. I'm not sure so that that book is claimed to have been written by automatic writing as well claim for Christ affirmation about is Christ of aliens in the automatic writing that's that's what it was. So what do you have what you perceive is the difference in mechanics, but we know that just using this year so he was able to see the characters and cells for electric placement of those characters very personal accounts instead when you look at skeletons work regarding the scribal manuscripts way science is clearly the errors being made are errors that come from him reading something to describe where is as close to him say something where's you without that writing, you would've had the errors would benefit different sort that would there would've been errors that one makes when writing reading something, but is described in the same way as I can, automatic writing, someone taps into some something is there hand whenever it does that mean different nests a whole different approach would like how you go about determining the Savior Duranty a book can't be true and accurate information, but the book of Mormon can like how you know this probably a lot of truth in their rather not follow through the spirit to discern what's really good and what's best not in terms of being a truthful record. I don't know that your answer presents itself as if it is a historical records. This is a big difference between the book of Mormon and other books that person could pray to know the truth of his presents itself as an objectively verifiable actual historical record and so that's the truth claim, whereas with ranch yeah don't know that it's based on particular history so much like knowledge that has been received yet so true.

I know if you will be asked to render that book I been only a little bit of the site. Currently applying but it's interesting if nothing else but what about James J. Strang shot him. So how do you he claim to do many of the same things just right down place. The 40 plates translate the book of love, Lord produce the Scripture.

How do you how do you weigh that against Satan strength Strang was wrong but Smith was right about Strang as it shows just how apartment just did would actually be excellent to his own place where he places tiny is only a couple of really crudely done and the people who saw them talk about that. Where's the book of Mormon. Everyone who saw those massive record beautifully etched sonic craftsmanship is better restrained one of his co-conspirators later came out saying I hope to make plays and you know this is that you Joseph Strang was a man who had a lot more knowledge of folders used more cuttings the right word.

He was definitely clever and clearly trying to do is copy Joseph in every possible way that he could NBC be keeping Litchfield in every possible way he could have spaces coming out against him. He has placed it on. He has visions that he admits candidates getting caught. Joseph none of that blowback ever happened.

So I actually really like to compare those two stories because Strang is one of those guys know I encounter a lot of people in your name. Still, that's okay.

And Strang was the person who attended and failed even though there were several witnesses who join his church members Joseph family because he was using the same. You know the say telegraphs the Joseph C markers, but in the end it didn't stack up in his religion died out quite quickly. Joseph switches along questions so I kind of pushed me jump into the Chicago statement. I know that you guys have a couple specific questions about okay so you asked for article 3, which you know I should've read the listeners to know what it is talking about here.

So, article 3 says, we affirm that the written word in its entirety is revelation given by God. So my first question that was how do we account for co-opted stories were vested had been added later that been taken from other cultures and sort repurposed for the Bible you noted these but my personal view is that this can be done under the direction of the spirit and that can become inspired just like the author speaking their own words could be inspired so you I believe Paul can take poetry or can take something else. Contrary to his own use and that becomes the word of God in him doing that.

But originally it wasn't on and we talked about the rich man and Lazarus parable from the New Testament, all of you guys had a chance to look into that if you had any specific questions and things to bring up about that. Yeah I mean I did look into it and when you said you I would tend to agree with you right because verbal, plenary inspiration is the idea that words used by the authors of Scripture were inspired by God breathed out by God but also that the personalities and cultures of the authors were not overtaken by God's revelation is not by like a Dictaphone type situation when when Christians talk about inerrancy and infallibility in Revelation inspiration. It's not like we talk about with automatic writing, where you know the personalities and thoughts of the authors are just completely out and whatever the hand is writing is not what's going on. The authors are writing from their own contexts and carried about by the Holy Spirit to write what God would have them write with regards to the rich man and Lazarus. The first thing I'm saving that you might get a different answer from me.

This become a biblical studies guy than you might on some from somebody else saves systematics guidebook so You can't really take graduate-level courses in biblical studies without encountering the idea that biblical authors used other literature rights in ancient near Eastern literature is found in various ways throughout the Old Testament short example of that is like that. The Genesis creation account as kind of like polemic against the other ancient near Eastern creation myths right to say hey you know Yahweh is creator and skidded and so the sky were my biblical study background takes note that with regards to the rich man and Lazarus. And I'm not fully convinced so far listeners fear the idea here is that the rich, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an older Egyptian motif that is used by Jesus in the Gospel of Luke and kind of repurposed right and so that was that was proposed by Hugo Grossman, a German scholar in 1918. I'm not fully convinced that that that's the case so the reason why is that that while there are some parallels there are some significant divergences between the two and so just adjust is like the divergences between the ancient near Eastern myths and what the Old Testament prophets right in the polemic against the myths or what are significant right because the Old Testament prophets are saying you know Yahweh is is the God Almighty right just as those divergences are important for the Old Testament record I think are important. In the parable as well so so that the Egyptian stories called set me and see Osiris.

There are some rough parallels that that Hugo Grossman proposed one that both contain the deaths of the rich man and a poor man. Both contain a reversal of those two men's fortunes in the afterlife. In the third parallel is that there's a possibility of returning from the netherworld to reveal this truth to the living.

I think the third one is especially stretched, given what the Egyptian account actually says what somebody else comes back. Not one of those who dies so that the significant points of divergence that I see are Abraham's bosom. The concept of Lazarus resting in Abraham's bosom. That's a that's something that's not found in any text prior to the gospel of Luke, which is interesting. There is no explicit reason given in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus from either fortunes are reversed. You can kind of infer that maybe it's just being rich is bad and being poor is good but there's no explicit reason reason, whereas in the Egyptian set me and see Osiris.

It explicitly states that it's because of the rich man's evil deeds in the poor man's good deeds price of its judgment or reward is as a result of their own deeds which is absent in the loop account. One thing to note is that this parable of Jesus is the only one to actually name a character. The rest of his parables are more general, the reason that's interesting is that some scholars appointed the cell. The name Lazarus is the Greek equivalent of the Old Testament Hebrew name Eliezer Eliezer was Abraham's steward and maimed air prior to the birth of Isaac, so there's a very strong suggestion that that that parable Jesus is actually doing is this commenting on the story of Abraham and Eliezer on the other thing about that to come back the first unit is Jesus's portrayal of the afterlife and the parable has a parallel in for student 22 so this whole idea that there's a place for the fourth the righteous and the place for the wicked and the afterlife to await the judgment is paralleled in first unit 22, so this is so, maybe this time it's it's interesting right but the difference is the difference I would I would notice that in them in the first thing that there's actually four caves in the mountain. One of the caves as is for the righteous. Three of her four the unrighteous so but just that there was there was his idea that higher higher up there would be righteous and lower down the unrighteous is paralleled in first unit. I'm so just all that I think there's this really interesting suggestions and strong suggestions that it could be a story wholly within the Jewish tradition that actually fits better with the Jewish tradition like something some of the strange parallels receiver submit some motifs that they share but there significant differences in the way that it's used in Luke just shows it to be thoroughly Jewish interest is that Osiris is taking Abraham's place for the rest of the shirts or something in that which is is just as interesting to me from a book of Abraham perspective so note there are those that so it's interesting to think about.

The parable because it mentions Abraham a grandma's bosom and dimensions Lazarus writes of you thinking about along the lines of Eliezer's Lazarus Eliezer was Abraham's heir, who was a non-Israelite non-not a member of Abraham's family so not a descendent with what's interesting is that when you you might actually have.

There is, is Jesus commenting on what you see later in the New Testament where the truth originally came to the lights and then is given to the Gentiles is the last class to sell short school so we discussed that will actually so when I looked at. I went to the opposite direction. Hebrew story with Barbara Greco Romans kind of context is another story. I have the paper because I'm a perpetual student, so I have a university you want to continue this article, but I will talk and it's basically the Greco-Roman backgrounds to Luke chapter 1691 and he compares acute symbols to main sources. I think that speak of the character Steve it's a poor marginalized artisan and my sellers goes hungry from early morning to evening despair dislikes and souls and feelings of the powerful sources of summarization is also later when I saw wasn't a rich tyrant named Mick may get big appendices that they get a sponsor.

They both make the trip to Hades so they get they get these the rich man and Jesus parable summarization tried to strike a bargain to alter situation, but to no avail. Finally, on my Celeste and he will make big panties. They face red amount as the judge of the underworld. My sources just if you are a ghost gal, the blessed mega panties do so.

However, a state of corruption and he will, he is punished so hockey says that this is like a background to the parable, which minimizes so it so I would ask possibly this is dislikes this kind of story is ingrained in the culture about the Jewish culture Greco-Roman culture something. It's like easily identifiable that that you know that he had tapped into to teach the truth about you know what it means to show mercy yield the value of showing mercy. Sixes know and unmerciful, so this is possible that no and there's even debate whether this is actually parable or not, but I think in our natural event.

I think he's just using this tapping into this. You know this mythos that's already in the cultures try to teach a truth is, I thought.

Have I sought that's not what I would say there is that you and Matthews right there right as I same see the same kind of thing with baby Matt engineer Eastern myths in the Old Testament the way that the Old Testament prophets, interact with and make use of them, and then ultimately say Yahweh is greater than God's right this this parable. If it is a parable is Jesus doing something very similar with with the story and theme of the motif.

It seems to have been within the culture more broadly right and he he makes use of it for for his purpose and that places Jesus very squarely in the tradition of Old Testament prophet by which prophet priest king is one of his roles.

Prophet could take you know something is not scriptural related to something that the cultural knows about this floating around up there and use that and it becomes inspired Scripture in his use of that inaccurate guy when I was a that's acting as they carried along by the Holy Spirit.

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