Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone.

Welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. Listen to Matt Slick live if you want to give me a call as usual.

The number is 877-207-2276. And you can also email me info at karm.org, info at c-a-r-m dot o-r-g. Oh, that's right. I forgot to do the rumble thing. I'll see if I can fix that.

And put in the subject line radio comment or radio question. That's all you got to do. And we can get to that. All right. All right. All right. So let me get out of this and I'll come back in.

I'll fix that. OK. So I released an article today on Eastern Orthodoxy on using icons. And it's really interesting, at least to me, you know, as I do the research, as I do these things where I try and figure out who, what, when, where and all that kind of stuff. And what I've discovered in Eastern Orthodoxy is that they have a set of, I guess, well, I don't know how to put it, because they think a certain way. They do things a certain way and they don't really, they don't hold it viable to be the final authority.

They just don't. And because of that, they will worship, I guess you could say worship, but they will have all kinds of issues with icons. And I find that, of course, to be very problematic and that they will use them, well, they use them in a worship service. And one of the things that I noticed when I was in Thessalonica, that's right, I was in Thessalonica in November, what I noticed was that they, in the church, in the Thessalonica Church, which was Eastern Orthodox, what we noticed there was the number of icons that were there, the gold and the silver, and people kissing the icons, et cetera. And they were doing this quite a bit. And so we took pictures, we took some film of it and the whole thing. And it really stuck with me because of the, well, just basically the idolatry that was involved.

It was really bad. So we also, when I was in, not Thessalonica, but Greece, went into a place where you guys had a little something to eat and there was a back room. In the back room, they had all these icons on walls and I couldn't understand what they were saying because they're all speaking in Greek. But they were bidding on icons. So an icon is a flattened kind of a representation of a saint. And so I had these questions, right, and I've been working these questions off and on for a little while, just trying to get people to, trying to get people to check these questions out.

See, here's the first question I have on the new article I released. How does the Orthodox Church avoid violating, and I have these verses, Exodus 24, Leviticus 26, Joshua 23, which forbid making images and bowing before them, especially since Orthodox believers bow before icons, and they do. They kiss the icons. They kiss the icons and they bow before them and they pray to the people that these icons represent. And my question is, why would they do that? Why would they do that?

Why would you bow before these icons and, excuse me, why would you bow before the icons and then pray to the saints that these icons represent? That is just wrong. But they say it's okay. Now there's a critical verse in the Bible, 1 Corinthians 4, 6.

What I want to do is go to it and read it to you. This is a really challenging verse for a lot of people. And it says, it says, Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other, not to exceed what's written in the word of God. Don't exceed what Scripture teaches. So let me ask you, is bowing before images exceeding Scripture when the Bible says don't do it? And I've got the verses and the questions that say don't do it.

And I have another question. If icons are merely, as they like to say, windows to the divine, they like to put these euphemistic things like pro-choice instead of killing the babies. And so people like to use euphemism, the window to the divine. In other words, it's an icon that you bow before and kiss, you can carry around and take it to your home. But it's not an idol, okay? But they pray to the ones the icons represent. But they say they're not worshiping them.

But here's the thing. In the Scriptures, worship is before God, you bow down before God, and there's a case of kissing pagan idols in Hosea and 1 Kings. And then incense to God is offered and incense to other gods is offered. And so what they'll do is they will burn incense, these Orthodox people will burn incense before these icons. And they'll bow before the icons and they'll kiss the icons. But it's not worship, it's not idolatry.

Why? Because their hearts are okay. To me, it's like, are you just that dense? Well, you know, this is what happens when you join a false religion. And you believe so many things that they just tell you. They just tell you.

And people just believe it. They don't check it with God's word. They don't do that.

Here's a third question. Can you explain why we do not see anywhere in God's inspired word in the New Testament where Jesus or the apostles used images, icons, or carvings as part of public or private worship? Well, that's important. Where does it say that they do that in the New Testament? Well, they don't.

They don't do that at all. But the Catholic Church does. The East Orthodox Church does. But they're the true church. Each one claims to be the true church.

So, which one is it? And why do they do this? Why do they exceed what's written in the word of God? Here's another question. How does the Orthodox Church guard against icons becoming practical idols where believers place their trust or emotional dependence on what the image represents rather than Christ? Now, that's critical.

That is critical. Because in Ezekiel 14, 3-5, it talks about people who set up idols in their hearts and condemns that. And so, here's the problem with having these icons. You start praying before the icons and you visualize the icon image representing who you're praying to.

And I was talking to an Eastern Orthodox guy about two weeks ago. And he said, Matt, what do you visualize when you pray to Jesus? I said, nothing. And he said, what? I said, I don't visualize anything.

I just pray to my Lord. He says, how do you do that? And it told me right there, he's so entrenched in iconography, iconodualism, which is the love of icons, that he couldn't even think of worshiping God without an image. He couldn't even think of that. It really was new to him.

I thought that was interesting. Here's another question. Since John 4-24 says, God is spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. Why are physical icons necessary for true spiritual worship, especially in light of Exodus 20 verse 4 and Leviticus 26 one, which denounced these practices, of having things that you bow before and images and stuff like that. And here's a sixth question.

I have nine questions total. Can Orthodox believers provide solid evidence from pre-Constantine period, the pre-Constantine period showing that the early church fathers used icons in worship? And I listed pre-Constantine church fathers like Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, et cetera, Justin Martyr. And then I actually provided links to go to the church father's websites, go find them, go see. And what I'm going to probably do is go to places like this and then just type in the word icon and image and just search through all the documents and see what they say. Takes a lot of work, though.

Number seven, if portraying the invisible God in physical form is what led Israel to idolatry as seen with the golden calf in Exodus 32, how does the Orthodox Church justify using visual images, slash icons of Christ or the Trinity without risking a similar slide into representing or reducing God's glory to human form? That's a good question. I always look at it this way. If you want to mess something up, you just need two things, people and time. And if you want to mess it up, just people and time. It's all you need. And you'll mess it up. And so if you have these images that you have in your home, what's to prevent you from using these images in your heart and your mind, just letting up idols in your hearts?

Here's number eight. How does the use of icons, which evokes praying to the people they represent, avoid undermining the command of Jesus to go directly to him? Jesus says, Matthew 11, 28, Come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It doesn't say go to anybody else. I've brought this up to Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. Why do you go to the saints? Why do you pray to them? There's no evidence that they can hear millions of prayers.

And why do you do that? Well, because the church says so. But Jesus has come to him. I've quoted this verse so many times, Matthew 11, 28, Come to me, all who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. That's what it says.

Come to me. And number nine. How does the use of icons, which invokes praying to the people they represent, avoid the practice of contacting the dead? Contempted scripture. In Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12, it says, There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable things, the Lord your God will drive them out before you. So, calling up the dead. Now, do they call up the dead? Do they try and conjure them to talk to them?

No, they don't do that. But the idea of contacting the dead is what they're doing. And they are, in that sense, calling up the dead.

Calling upon their names, having the attention of the dead, and then praying to them. This is called idolatry. It's idolatry. They are idolaters. Both the Roman Catholic and the East Orthodox Church promote idolatry.

I'm going to just say it again. They promote idolatry. They do. And you know what they'll say to get out of this? They'll say, Well, you see, we're not worshiping them as we worship God.

We're just bowing before them, kissing them, praying to them, but we're not calling them God. So it's okay. God says, Don't do this stuff. But they do it anyway.

Why? Because they're the true church. When you have the true church, well, the true church tells you what to believe. It tells you what's okay, because it has the authority to interpret God's word. Not you, but the church does. So what the people do is they say, Yeah, I'll drink that theological Kool-Aid.

Not a problem. Just tell me what to do, what to believe, and I'll drink it. Yeah, just give me some Kool-Aid. And for those of you who don't know what that is alluding to, it's Jim Jones, the cult that went to Guyana back in the 70s, I think it was. And he was a cult when he'd already moved everybody out of America down there. And long story short, they poisoned the Kool-Aid. And it was close to a thousand people or 900 and some odd people died from it. And there's reasons they did all this.

Not good reasons, but I mean, you know, government was looking into it and stuff like that. So it wasn't mass suicide. I think the higher ups in the group put the poison in the Kool-Aid. They all drank it ceremonially and they died. It was over 900. I'm going to see how many during the break. Anyway, it's called Drinking the Kool-Aid.

How many died in the cult? I'll get a break coming up. We'll get to that after the break. We'll figure out how many.

We'll get to Ebenezer from California. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everyone, welcome to the show.

Welcome back. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. And I found out how many people died in the gyms, the Jones, it's called Jim Jones, Jonestown mass suicide. It was November 18th, 1978, a total of 918 deaths.

There were 909 in the suicide that included 300 children. They drank a cyanide-laced flavored Kool-Aid. Oh, it's often misreported as Kool-Aid. Oh, okay, so it wasn't Kool-Aid. But anyway, it became a fray to drink the Kool-Aid, nevertheless. There was five people killed at the Port Kaituma airstrip, along with the U.S.

Congressman Leo Ryan, so journalists and defectors. So when people were leaving Jonestown, the people in the Jones, I ambushed them, killed them. And so anyway, it brought a total of 918 people killed. But of the drinking the Kool-Aid, 909. Anyway, that's what that is. So it became kind of an expression, just drink the Kool-Aid. Believe, what doesn't matter, don't do the thinking, just buy into it completely, and it's costly.

And that's the idea that so many are doing, particularly in Catholicism and East Orthodoxy. Let's get to it. Yeah, but these are from California. But these are welcome here on the air.

Hey, Matt, can you hear me? Yes, I can. I got you.

What do you got? Yeah. So I just I kind of need clarity on a couple of verses. First of all, James, James, James, what is it? It's 21.

What is it? No matter of fact, it's 20 through 23, right? No, no. No, no.

To do 24. James 2, 24. Justified by faith, by works, not by faith alone. Yeah, because I get that from the Orthodox a lot, especially because I was just talking to one the other day. And he because I was telling him how James was talking about how that justification between man and man to man instead of man towards God. And he was he he pointed he went all the way to 20 where it says, but are you willing to acknowledge you foolish person that faith without works is useless? And then he just because it was off the car, so he just kicked me from there.

And he didn't let me explain. So I was like, oh, what venue was this? What venue was it? Were you talking like Facebook or what? It was it was on TikTok. It looked like they do a lot of proselytizing on there. Yeah, I need to get on TikTok.

Maybe they'll go on tonight. Look, I got to figure it out. But it's just more I got to do. But yeah, I know they're proselytizing. And I'm getting more and more motivated to really expose their their their inevitable heresies because there's so many of them.

So, yeah, I've talked to them about that. And let me go through. Let me teach you a curse word. I'm going to teach you a curse word over the radio.

Ready? It's a curse word. Yeah. Context. It's a curse word.

It's easy. Context. And a lot of times what I'll do when I'm talking to them and they will quote a verse, they'll say, you know, faith that works is dead.

And two things. I'll go to Romans four, five, for example, and I'll say, for the one who does not work but believes in him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith, his credit, his righteousness. And I say, see right there, he says, the one who does not work but believes. I mean, that's faith alone.

Works are negated. And they'll say, that's not what it means. And they said, and besides, James two says. So what they'll do is they set scripture against scripture. They understand what's being said by Paul. And they go to James to contradict Paul.

They don't realize they're doing that's one thing. The other thing is the context, like I said. So let's always do, and I'll go through this with you, verse by verse.

And if you want, you can take some notes or whatever. But we'll just do it. Verse 14 of James 2. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works, can that faith save him? What kind of faith is going to save you?

True faith, not false faith. That's what's going on there. He says if a brother or sister, is that between God and man? No, your brother and your sister.

It's without clothing in need of daily food. So that's people. And one of you said to them, that's people. Verse 15 and 16 are about people in front of you. Go in peace, be warm, be filled, yet do not give them what is necessary for their body.

What use is that? Even though faith without works is dead being by itself, what's the context right there? Talk about helping your fellow person. Verse 18. Someone may well say, you have faith, I have works, show me your faith without the works, I will show you my faith by my works. That's people. It's right there, it's people.

It's horizontal. You believe that God is one, you do well, the demons also believe and shudder. So what are you saying in verse 19? You're saying, well, you guys, you don't have any works, your faith is dead. That kind of faith doesn't do anything. It doesn't help anybody, it doesn't save you. It's just false faith.

Are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, between people again? That faith without works is useless. He's saying to them, look, you say you believe, let's see it.

That's what he's saying. And he says, without Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar. Well, yeah, not before God because we know from Romans 4, 1, what shall we say that Abraham our forefather according to the flesh is found. For if Abraham has something to boast about, my works have something to boast about, but not before God.

Okay, for what does it say? The scripture says, and Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. That's a little note for you, but what they'll do in James 2, they'll say, was not Abraham our father justified by works? The context is before people, not before God. Absolutely it's not before God.

Because, in fact, let me do something right here. I'm typing the word God, and the only place in this pericope, that, a pericope is a section of scripture, that we've gone through so far is you believe that God is one. So it's a mental assent, it's called assentia. Assentia, A-S-C-E-N-T-I-A. And so demons have that kind of belief. It's not real. Oh, say that again.

Hold on. What type of belief do demons have? It's called assentia.

There's two kinds of faith. How do you spell that? Well, I want to do the joke, say T-H-A-T, you know, how to spell that. But it's assentia, A-S-C-E-N-T-I-A. E-N-T-I-A, assentia, okay.

But now it's also pronounced assenseus, A-S-S-E-N-S-U-S. It's a mental acknowledgement. An intellectual acknowledgement. That's what the demons have. But they don't have what's called fiducia.

Fiducia is real faith and trust in. And that's what we have in Christ. So what he's doing here, James is talking about true faith and false faith. That's what he's doing. Are you willing to recognize a foolish fellow? That faith without works is useless.

Okay, he's talking about people. Was not Abraham our father, justified by works, when he offered up Isaac, his son on the altar. Not before God, but before people. He says, you see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected. That means Abraham was tested and his faith improved.

And then verse 23, the scripture was fulfilled saying, Abraham believed God and was created in his righteousness. After the break, we'll get back and we'll continue with this and show you what's going on. Okay, buddy, because we've got a break, so hold on. Okay, folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Yeah, I'm here. All right, now before the break, we got to this place where it says, you see that faith was working with his works, and that's Abraham. Abraham had faith in God, and he worked according to his faith, because there's an adage, you behave according to what you believe.

If you believe something, you're going to behave in a manner consistent with it. And he says, as a result, the works, faith was perfected. So Abraham wasn't sure, but he trusted. And by the work of trusting, his faith was improved. Isn't there that passage in Romans where it said he was convinced into his mind?

He was convinced that he would be raised from the dead. It might be in Romans, too, but Abraham convinced God would raise Isaac. Yeah, there's a verse. I forget where it is.

Let me see if I can find it, though. Yeah, it's in Hebrews 11. That's right, Hebrews 11, 17, and 19.

All right, so here's the thing. His faith was perfected, which means he experienced a difficulty. He had to go through this, and his faith in God is even bigger and better. And then it says the Scripture was fulfilled. Abraham believed God was credited in his righteousness. What I'll do in verse 23 is I'll say, what was credited as righteousness? And they don't want to answer the question, because it says, Abraham believed God was credited in his righteousness to God.

He believed God was credited in his righteousness, but he was called the friend of God. So that reckoning of righteousness is justification. That's before God by faith, but everything else is justification before people by your works. Because if you meet somebody, you don't know if they're Christian or not.

But the way they are, you want to see their works. And that's why he says, you see, a man is justified by works, not by faith alone. The context is not justification before God, because in the previous verse, belief is what was reckoned as righteousness, not faith in works.

So verse 24, you see, a man was justified by works and not by faith alone. You see? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's the name? So this one really gets me, though. And you know what? First of all, I want to apologize, because, you know, my tongue is kind of – I got a loose tongue, you know what I'm saying, on the TikTok.

I mean, because they kind of push my buttons. Huh? Yeah, I know. You've got to watch that. It takes practice. You calm yourself down, and you get in there and you – in fact, I used to have a sign next to me, speak calmly, because you get involved. You get involved with this stuff. I mean, you just do. You forget where you're at. You're just going. So I'd look at this. Oh, that's right. You know?

Try that. Yeah, no, I mean, because it's like they cuff at me. They cuff at me. Well, they can do that. And then when they cuss, then I'd go to the Scriptures in Colossians 3, and it says – it says, Colossians 3, 12, As those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another, forgiving each other. It says, is that what you guys are doing? Yeah.

Yeah, I know. And also, Colossians 3 is really good, okay? It's 8, but now you also put them all aside, anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. It says, why are you guys not obeying God's word? And I also do this one in Colossians 4, 5, and 6.

Conduct yourself with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity to let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt. So it's telling you how to behave. And you say to them, so the Scriptures tell you not to behave like you are. That means if you behave the way you are, it means you're purposely sinning on purpose. And I ask them, is this what your Eastern Orthodox Church says it's okay to do? Yeah.

I got one more passage. 1 Timothy 3, 15. Yeah. That the church is the household, okay. So what it says here, they're going to claim that their church is the true church, because it says, the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of truth.

And there's different ways. I'll tackle them with this. And I'll say, what? The church is the pillar and support of truth. You guys aren't doing that, so you're not the church.

Just say it. And they don't like that, because they claim they're the true church. And I'll say, well, if you're the true church, why is it you promote idolatry and you have works of righteousness for salvation?

Why is that? Now, if you go to CARM and look up Eastern Orthodoxy, you'll see I'm developing a list of questions to ask on icons. You can see what their church says about themselves. There's so much information and ammo there. I go to CARM, but some things I don't see on there, like that question that I asked you last time with regards to when was, like how did we get our 66 book canon, you know what I'm saying?

I'll develop questions on that as well and go through it and do that. That's a bit longer. What they're trying to do is say that their church is the true church, their church has the authority, their church gave us the Bible, so therefore their church can tell you what it really means. It's arrogance.

It's arrogance, and they can't even see it. Our church is a true church, and we gave you the Bible. They didn't give us the Bible. God gave us the Bible.

They don't do it. They take the place of God. I'm working on another article for Catholicism, which I'm going to adapt to Eastern Orthodoxy, that the Roman Catholic Church, and it fits in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Almost 90% of it is identical. They teach a false gospel, a false priesthood, and a false mariarch.

They promote idolatry. And so if you go to CARM, this is what you could do. You go online and you go to Google Docs or you go to Office.com because it's free Microsoft Office there. You sign up with a Microsoft account and you do that. You can create a document, an outline document. You go to CARM and you look up stuff, and you find things that you think are helpful, and you copy it and put it into your document you have online so you have quick access to the things you need.

So you can paste it in. Yeah. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you.

Of course you do. That's good. I'm so glad to hear it.

That's wonderful. So I appreciate you calling in. All right, take it easy. All right, man. All right, buddy.

These are documents, buddy. All right. All right, now let's get to the next longest-waiting caller, Chuck from Ohio. Chuck, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, man.

Chuck. Hey. How are you doing? Hey. I'm okay. How are you?

Melancholy, a little obstreperous, somewhat recalcitrant, and without any too much puerile. In the name of perseverance, I'm doing okay. Okay. I've got a question on street preaching. What do you think is the best translation to use in general?

In general? Well, I'm going to tell you which one I would not use, and that's the King James. Because if you're going to quote to people out there, if you start using 500-year-old language, you might confuse them.

For if thou wouldst will believeth, and they look at you like, what are you talking about? So the NIV is good. It's very generic. The ESV is also very generic, and you can do the ESV.

It would be, I think, a good compromise and ease of understanding and accuracy of the text. Okay. Okay.

I've got another quick one if you've got time. Sure. Go ahead. Okay.

What is your take on these? And I've got friends that do this, and I've even done it with them myself. But what do you think about people that kind of set up stations and ask unbelievers if there's anything they can pray for them about?

A good idea. Good for them. Yep.

Okay. Because I heard some people say that they should concentrate more on the gospel and less on whether they can pay their traffic ticket or not. Here's the thing. God calls different people to do different things at different times. And as Romans 14.4 says, it says, Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls on, and he will stand for the Lord is able to make him stand. I say to people, that's between God and that person.

You don't tell them what they should be doing in preaching the gospel. Okay. All right? Yeah.

There's a break, buddy. We've got to go. Yeah. All right, man. God bless. Okay.

Okay, Chuck? God bless. Okay, we'll see you. Thank you. All right. We'll be right back with Joel from Colorado after the break. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. Welcome back to the show. We have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, the last segment of the hour. Let's get on to Joel from Colorado. Joel, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, how's it going, Matt? The same girl from yesterday.

What's that? Say it again, the last part? The same girl from yesterday. Okay. All right. She remembered me. Okay, buddy.

What do you got? Hey, yeah, so there was something I was thinking about going to sleep last night because this is the stuff that occupies my mind. You said when I told you that I was a Catholic Christian and converted into the Catholic Church and came and was confirmed this last Easter, you asked me why would I leave the faith of the gospel of Jesus Christ for religion of works? And then you proceeded to list like three, I think it was like three or four sacraments, you know, how we have to do baptism and partake in the Eucharist and go to confession and you know, and all this stuff rather than just having faith in Christ. And I saw that as a false dichotomy right away because I cannot separate any of the sacraments from Christ. Those are all dispensations of his grace upon us. So, I'm not sure why there's a false dichotomy. I still have faith in the gospel of Christ. I would say you don't. But let me run something by you, okay?

Let me run something by you. This is Galatians 5. This is where the Judaizers were seeking to have people circumcised to be saved, part of the law. And Paul says, you know, if you receive circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law. Now circumcision is a ceremony. It's a ceremony. It's not, you don't do it yourself, normally speaking, but it's done to you.

Just like baptism is a ceremony done to you. And so you receive it. You sit there and you receive it.

Okay, you don't do anything. And he says if you receive it, you're under obligation to keep the whole law. Receiving it, just by doing, just by that passive action, is actually considered part of the law.

Now you're under obligation to keep the whole law. So, the sacramental system are things that you receive. And they're a means by which, in Catholicism, grace is infused into the soul. That's paragraph 1999 in the catechism.

So, let me explain. Initial justification in Catholicism occurs at baptism. All your sins are up to that point or wiped out. If you die right there, you go to heaven. But if you commit a venial sin, you know, the next day or two, whatever, now if you were to die, you go to a holding place, purgatory, and you have to be purified and suffer a little bit. There are different theories about that, even within Catholicism. And after you have been cleansed enough, then you can go be with God. But in the meantime, people can offer masses for you and you can merit grace to be applied to you.

They can do that. So that grace is like a substance that can be transferred. This is the false teaching. Grace is not like a subset because it says it's actually infused into the soul.

Ephesians 1, I mean, excuse me, paragraph 1999 in the catechism of the Catholic Church. It's infused into the soul. When you commit, it's like when you get baptized, you have 100% filled up with grace. But if you commit a venial sin, a little bit's lost. You know, 1%.

I'm not saying those are actual numbers. I'm just using my illustrations. So you lose a little bit of grace. Now you've got to go get some more grace. So you go to the church. You confess your sin. You're absolved by the authority of the priest. You do a penance sacrament. And then you get that grace re-infused, you know, filled up again. And this continues for the rest of your life in the Catholic Church. That's your salvation.

Okay. And how is that contrary to the gospel of Christ? No place in the Bible does it teach grace is infused into the soul. No place does it say through sacraments, grace is given to you. Nothing in scripture says that.

It's not there. Well, I mean, what about baptism? Baptism's pretty clearly taught as regenerative.

Where does it say that? Uh, Romans 6. Romans 6, are you sure? I am sure. We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death.

Okay. So verse 4, therefore, you've been buried with him through baptism into death. So you're buried with him. You're buried with Jesus when he was crucified. That was 2,000 years ago.

Okay. We'll go to verse 6 and 8 here in a little bit. You're buried with him through baptism into death. So what baptism is a symbol of is that which replaces the covenant of circumcision. Well, I don't see what it says. It's a symbol. I don't see it saying it's a symbol, though.

Well, you didn't let me finish, though. Paul relates baptism and circumcision. He says, you've been circumcised with a circumcision, made without hands, having been buried with him in baptism. That's in Colossians 2, 11, and 12. So he relates baptism and circumcision.

All right. Now, when you go to Romans 4, 11, Paul also said this about circumcision. He says, you receive the sign of circumcision, and they seal the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised.

So it's a seal. So if baptism is related to circumcision, it also is a seal. But what Paul says, but nevertheless, buried with him through baptism so that as Christ was raised from the dead, the glory of you also might walk in newness of life. Where does it say baptism forgives you of your sins or regenerates you in that verse?

In that verse specifically? Not that one. I mean, you could refer to other ones. Well, you brought up this one. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

You brought up this one. We'll do it one at a time so this verse doesn't say what you were saying, right? It says, in order that we were buried with him by baptism, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. So it's showing that we're going from a state of spiritual death into a state of spiritual life. That's the definition of regeneration.

Well, that one I'll grant you. See, now you're looking at Scripture and you're using logic, and that's not a problem. Buried with him through baptism into death. So let me show you something.

This is not as simple as you might want to make it. 1 Corinthians 10. It says, I don't want you to be unaware, brethren, that our forefathers passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in a cloud in the sea.

This is what it says, the fathers passed through the sea. They're baptized into Moses. So here, baptism into death. So baptism into death is the identification with, because we know baptized into Moses is identification with Moses. Baptism is a public covenant sign that identifies you with what's going on. So you are being associated with the death of Christ by the baptism. That's what is going on there, because we know that Paul the Apostle who wrote both Corinthians and Romans uses the phraseology as identification, because he says you've been baptized into Moses in the cloud of the sea. That's identification with Moses.

All right? Well, I think on some level it's identification, but I think there's an actual substantial conferral of grace also happening, like an actual transfer of grace. So now grace is a substance that gets moved into you? Well, not in substance in the platonic sense, but substance in terms of there's actually a real true conferral of grace, not just purely a waving of the flag.

Okay. So the phrase baptized into occurs five times in the Bible. You should look at the phrase. Baptized into Moses in the cloud in 1 Corinthians 10.2. Baptized into one body, that's 1 Corinthians 12.13.

How does God use the term as the point? Look at Romans 6.3, which in that verse is baptized into is twice. Baptized into Christ has been baptized into his death, because now baptized into identifies with Christ and then also identifies with his death.

If you're going to say baptized into is a conference of grace, baptized into Christ has been baptized into his death means grace is infused into your soul, then you're saying grace is a substance that's moved into your being. Well, you would agree that faith is a substance, yes? No, in Hebrews 11.1, it's just a metaphorical way of describing something. Faith is an abstraction.

You know about platonic norms. You know what an abstract entity is, right? Yes, but I still think we can refer to faith as a substantial type of thing.

Well, you see, now you just moved away from what you originally said. You said it was a substance, as though it has some form to it that could be then transferred, but that's not what faith is. It's an abstract entity.

It doesn't have any dimensionality, mass, or anything. Form is a separate category from substance, though. Yes, but we're talking about abstract entities. It's an abstraction. Faith is an abstraction, like love is an abstraction.

Intention, compassion. You don't agree that love is substantial? No, you're not listening. You're not hearing. You're not hearing. No, I am.

I think faith, hope, and love and grace are all substances. Okay. Look. Oh, darn it, I hit the wrong button. There we go. It's static. Come on. Darn it.

Oh, man, hope it goes away. No, I'm talking about the issue of what an abstract entity is, and I don't think you're getting that. The idea of faith is great. I understand what an abstraction is. No, you don't. I do understand that. An abstraction? Well, I believe I do. Then define it.

That's why I'm... Define it. Define an abstract entity. Okay, it would be sort of like an ideological or a conceptualization type of... Good. I'm trying to use synonyms here because I'm thinking on the spot.

That's good. It's not a substantial type of thing. Okay. Does a concept have mass?

No. Does it have any mass, so therefore it has no weight? Does it have dimensionality? Well, yeah, you're correct, but the substance does not have to have a mass. Okay, so the concept, the intention, the action of belief is an abstract entity.

It does not have dimensionality, mass, or any substantial form. It isn't a transfer of essence. I think we might be confusing substance with material. Material is not the same thing as substance. Substance is just something that has a quality to it, has a... That's fine. Quality. Yeah.

Okay, that's good. So then what we're talking about is the ontological nature of the abstract entity is non-coporeal, non-mass, non-dimensioned. And so it's not a... Therefore, it isn't something that is transferred because things that are transferred have those properties and characteristics of an object being transferred to a location. Would you mind if I zoomed out real quick again because I think we did get into the philosophical weeds there a little bit.

Yeah. My main contention was that if you were to grant that baptism was a conferral of a substance of grace, or the Eucharist was a dispensation of the grace of Christ's atoning work on the cross by eating his flesh and drinking his blood, or that confession was going to Christ through the priest in persona Christi and having your sins absolved, I don't see how that is not having faith in Christ given that those are all defined such a way. I'm not saying you're not having faith in Christ. I'm saying that the Roman Catholic Church... Well, that's what you said yesterday. What I'm saying is that the Roman Catholic Church puts obstacles to your faith in Christ. You can have a faith in Christ.

But those are not obstacles. Well, dude, dude, you've got to let me finish, okay? You keep interrupting a lot and we're out of time. So I'll tell you what. Call back tomorrow.

Call back earlier. We have a little discussion on Catholicism. And I'll show you why it's so very bad.

Because there's no hope of salvation. See, there you go again. You keep interrupting.

You keep interrupting, okay? So call back tomorrow. We're out of time, folks. And Jermaine from California, call back tomorrow. Hey, folks, we're out of time. God bless. Talk to you tomorrow. Bye.