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April 29, 2021 9:40 am
From Mormon to Jesus! Real, authentic conversations among former members of the Church Of Latter-Day Saints.
Your right and what the Bible says about this human will. What does what effect does sin have on the human will and is the Bible clear on that point.
Try to find passage just came to mind is the best for if you live according to the flesh will die.
But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
So I there is a sense in which in which I think we can kind of agree with Latter Day Saints with the book of Mormon where it says that like Michael's saying earlier that there's kind of this downward path, you can go down where Satan is slowly dragging you towards him.
So, if you keep going into deeper and deeper saying that it becomes more more difficult to come back out. So I think that is true, you know, as we as we as we commit sin, and as we go deeper into Seneca become more difficult for us to turn away from Essen, but ultimately we can even repentance is a gift of God so there's we can never truly repent of our sins.
Without God's grace, but I think there is. I think there are certain degrees of of sinfulness so we can reach by regressing into our sinful ways, saw not sure that's kinda what you, the question was trying to ask how how sin affects our free will.
I think that's maybe maybe him going a different direction, but nothing I can do right will respond will Bible seems present.
The idea that the human will is in bondage to sin until God acts to free the person from the bondage and as it is next Latter Day Saints from the bad idea was so hard to accept. I didn't want to believe that a person was in bondage and that the only way out of bondage was not a choice made by the individual.
But choice made by God to draw that person into relationship with the sun and thereby save that person and I think that that is the key difference between LDS theology and Christian theology, biblical theology that is tough for Latter Day Saints to accept, but I also think that the Bible is clear on the point that a person is dead in their sins and trespasses Mike Lambert courting that passage to you. You were kinda struggling through similar concerns on your way out in a Facebook messenger conversation several years ago now and you know that dead-end person can act as you as you noted in your the argument you are making about and it was there. Is there revamped content. So yeah, I think about was pretty clear on the point. Michael absolutely I do anything to you like just as when he asked us to sin. You know, take away some of our agency to a degree I think that it can, you know you and after salvation. I think that Christians can become addicted to things and they can become a hindrance to us in life are just receiving some of God's blessings, like looking at Romans chapter 6 right now, starting in verse 15 it says what then shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace, God for bid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants need hard to whom ye obey whether sin and to death or obedience under righteousness. But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you being then made free from sin, he became the servants of righteousness and sexy when things are really like about this passage no on Mormonism you're always somewhere in between being a sinner and being righteous and usually you like to think of yourself as being closer to the righteous side of things, but in verse 18 he says, free from sin, and in verse 20 he says when you were the servants of sin were free from righteousness.
So really it's a dichotomy there's as if you were righteous or were sinners. There's no in between.
Know there is in between right because that's how people end up in the terrestrial or celestial kingdoms right well and others are not quite sinless enough to God's presence yeah will. Romans six and basically you know, if I were to summarize it. What it basically says is there is no terrestrial kingdom right side. There are some passages like that just say that that were sinful that there is no there is no third way like you said in Romans five is talking about, talks about how through one brought many condemnation upon all and through one righteousness came upon all non-doesn't mean everyone saved it just means that because of Adam's transgression. I am saying sorry and that the Mormon terminologies popping up again so through a saw.
Just quote it says, but the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many in the free gift is not like the result of that one man sin for the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification because one of the four if because of one man's trespass death reigned through that one man, so I had in there alone… That's Adam much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ, so that that again. I think that Romans five just put the nail in the coffin, along with Romans six that there is no different degrees of glory.
It's like you're either in Jesus Christ by God's grace or your under condemnation in Adam. The fact is, is that you're either in Christ you're not.
There's no there's no is nine between so I think it's kind of off-topic from the question we just asked but I want to select that passage is relevant to my closing differently. So would you think about Augustine's three analogies that Alister McGrath touched on about the effects of sin. Remind what they are the first intrigues. Sin is a hereditary disease passed down from one generation to another disease we can. The disease weakens humanity and cannot be cured by human agency.
The second truth.
Sin is a power which holds us captive and we can't break free on our own.
The third analogy to sin is essentially judicial or forensic, namely guilt which is passed down from one generation to another. We think about those three analogies, so I had really heard those all of those analogies really before today, but guys, thinking about Amal and I actually really like them. I think their Internet analogies.
I think a good idea for us analogy would be that it's kind of like mixing M&Ms with skittles and Reese's pieces gravely agreeably with the true. The last time. Now you I posted a picture earlier that that prove total depravity by having a big bucket and they mixed instigated brand law is a skittles M&Ms and Reese's pieces on once again they mix it all up in the same the same container so that I was you had Paul sorry I was going to comment on the told you this was the holy Trinity. No, it's a modern wheat and tares story is what it is… Let's take a little bit of time to just dancing on the have a pen. Is that worse than pineapple and pizza. It's so hot out the same. I don't know. I wow you're killing me right now.
I would rather have pineapple and pizza oven. In that situation. I mean if it was just the M&Ms in the Reese's pieces it probably be okay. But the skittles, I'm a pineapple pizza only asked so yeah I was a bit afraid that your consider that and help is a ritual that sounds very legalistic to me now all her pizzas are heresies and Michael saying to KGB English national put if off the pineapple. Yeah. While there were many other toppings and if all the toppings that should have been put on the peak somewhere. I suppose the whole world could not contain the toppings that should be put the counter question to you guys though because one of things that that I kind of seen as an analogy for sin is like a debt what you guys think about that. I think that goes to the judicial or forensic concept because Paul uses a lot of very forensic terminology in Romans when he's talking about justification. My justification is a very legal very litigious term and so it's used within that concept of the courtroom where declared righteous or guilty so maybe it would fit in with that. I think this idea that were were were guilty wheat we did have weak we have a debt that we can't pay. So because of that were found guilty are made may be, are you saying that should be considered something slightly different. I almost felt like it didn't quite quite fit into those wages is a different thing which is to dad that you you can't you can't pay often and no matter how much you put into it. It doesn't moves never come close to paying it off, but then you know through through a marriage you notice somebody with eternal well it's the only thing that gets you out of the hole. You know you're really going to get into some of the various views on how you Tolman works that have been put forth by various theologians throughout the centuries. Dad and and and do Tolman being the payment of that debt is is one of them wouldn't come get into that only we tackle the atonement more Warren.what will what I thought wasn't thing about the third analogy is that as I thought about Mormon theology relative to the original sin versus Christian theology that seems to be really where maybe there's this starkest contrast is that the Mormon latter-day St. might really take issue with the idea of a person being guilty for Adam's act of partaking of the fruit right for Adam's act of disobedience which the second article of faith really tackles straightahead.
The concept of original guilt right.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, not for Adam's transgression. So there's this idea that your guilt is yours alone in Adam's guilt is his alone, and neither neither the twain shall meet.
But Matthews you reading from Romans chapter 5 verse 16… Doesn't seem to be the biblical view writing that the past is in the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass Adam sin, brought condemnation, not just for Adam right, it brought condemnation for all of humanity, but I free gift following many Trask trespasses brought justification not just for Jesus right for what he did in his obedience. But for the many who are his followers, and so, although there seems to be this this rejection of original guilt with within Mormon theology is it's hard to get away from that in Romans I and I do wonder how how Latter Day Saints would approach that passage in context. You know what else is an interesting I was just thinking about that second article of faith in this.
The wording of it is kind of a contradiction to because why would why would you be punished for Adam's transgression.
If it wasn't a sin in the first place. It's almost like they're acknowledging in that article of faith that it is punishable since we were not the ones who did it. You know she's going to be punished not just say so you're saying that the fact that they view it as a transgression is directly tied to the fact that a transgression is not were not accountable for that transgression.
Yes, and we are Paul that you know I mean I'm just saying that you'll posted earlier and I agree with him that Latter Day Saints left and say that that was in the sand because they didn't have the knowledge like of what they were really doing human warehousing. It is said that was that you Matthew I cited is all blurred letters together, but that if it wasn't a sin than why are they saying that you know that we can be not then it's punishable you know that they're not saying in the Arctic article of faith that nobody will be punished for Adam's transgression. They specifically say, but for our own sins. So, so their kindest equating to a sin and that second article of faith, we will not meet punished for Adam's transgression, but for our own sins. C9 and I was understood the way that it is viewed as a transgression, and by transgression, meaning that it's not as serious as a sin not. Not that it's not still disobedience but it's not as serious as a sin and the reason why is because on Mormon theology really they were doing the will of God in partaking of the fruit right because without without having partaking of the fruit they would never had Steve humanity wouldn't have come about and so they were they were kind of tricked into bringing about God's will for them to multiply and replenish. But they still had to disobey one of his commandments to do to do so now. Never understood why that had to be the case but that that seems to be the way that it is on Mormon on Mormon teachings, I was understood that that distinction between sin and transgression to be related to that that there was the sense in which they were they were bringing about God's plan anyway so they can be punished for bringing about God's plan okay so I know I know for me at that mentioned that because of Mormonism's commitment to the concept of free will. This doctrine of original sin was one of the hardest for for me to understand and embrace. As I was studying through the Bible and Christian theology did you did you guys find that to be the case for you as well, and if so why or why not is difficult for me when I was when I was questioning I was kind had 1 foot in the door, Mormonism, and 1 foot in reformed theology has started watching James white stuff and it's like you can't get more opposite than Mormonism and archaeology like reformed theology like everything's entirely of Grayson Mormonism is like grace helps you most of the works up to you so really it really bothered me the site.
Like all the things we talked about before this idea that that many people are going to be condemned before God that there so many people have died without Christ, and that they'll be condemned before him in judgment. And so, like it was just really heavy concepts because in an LDS theology. It feels kind of like I could secure it like a like a nice fluffy blanket like as missionaries. I was always trying to push myself to try to teach as many people as I could on Mike. I got help people enough, but it wasn't heaven or hell can a situation, it was more like I need to help people be happy because if I don't teach somebody you know they'll be missionaries on the other side after death note and I don't know get their chance. Eventually, but I try my hardest to get it to them now.
While it could still benefit them and on earth, and so on. So then when you take that that kind of security that safety blanket away and you realize that, like we are born condemned and and we have the sinful nature and we need we need to accept Christ and faith, repentance to be saved. It was it was really hard for me to is a really big pill to swallow, but I think the passages we talked about, especially John six when when James white executed John six.
Those are not exegesis means it just means like drawing out of the text out of the Bible what it saying so when James, I was executing her. Her next positing John chapter 6 and he goes through it and he got to that versus is no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him which Michael quoted earlier by that really bother me.
I got stuck on that text for days or weeks as is looking at it in the Mike can't ask can't be saying what that saying in a like we we are free to choose, like like like God would not leave us in the state where where we can't use him, but is by God's grace that that like I couldn't refute it. In other text is just so clear that God has to extend grace to a student first even come to him and because of the fall we are we are in this state of guilt and an sinfulness knew it. It was very difficult at first to both understand this idea of original sin and its consequences, and to accept the biblical truth concerning for me this was probably the thing that I fought off the longest after becoming a born-again Christian really had to let go of it to be just as you just thought it kicking and screaming for for so long just holding on to that LDS view it as much as they may trample the justice of God and did do that by saying you everybody's can inherit the kingdom and everybody gets a second chance in the next life. They definitely either just doesn't feel just when you're latter-day St. for to say that you know God's punishing everybody for something that Adam did and they warning them. We weren't even alive so you think about that and just like you know that's that's just wrong you know God. God wouldn't do that really has had my mind blown by reading Romans chapter 5 and on. Mike and I go into it a lot because Stephen Matthews Artie talks a lot about it here tonight, but it's very clear when you read Romans chapter 5 that there is original sin. And it's really comparing it to you is comparing the first Adam to the second sets Adam and Jesus and and what they did really really works the same way a lot. You know by one man. We were condemned by my one man we are saved and this is this is no room to wiggle out of that.
You know like I have to accept that there is original sin and you know it's been it's been a bit of a fight for me and I'm glad to be here and be able to accept that. Yeah it's completely biblical. What are some of the objections that LDS make to the doctrine of original sin and your response to them. One thing that can come to my mind is the text from the book of Mormon minutes tomorrow night.
Chapter 8 something about how little children cannot stand because they are live Christ and part of the way it was explained to me was that they can technically send it just doesn't count on with you guys ever heard that explanation, I think there's a couple different theologies, and in Mormonism that you can take but that is that is one of them basically you know he just disappears in Christ and this this one of the things I can and will bring up to his like you know when they turn eight. You know, I guess.
I guess moments kinda do believe in original sin, but it just takes hold. When when you turn eight. Apparently so I guess it's just kind of the difference there you we we were born with it and then they believe that it just doesn't take hold for for a while if that makes sense does it assume you referring to the age of accountability as is when when a child turns 18 years old. It's why, at least in modern Mormonism that the Salt Lake City variety. Children are baptized, generally at the age of eight.
Whereas in early early Mormonism.
That was not the case. But if you think about that when you just noted that that little children are alive in Christ. What this suggests is that a person when they are born until the age of accountability is called quote unquote alive in Christ right and then there comes a point where they are no longer alive in Christ. And so it's just kind of why why why why would that be the case if a little child is alive in Christ and should should die will go to the celestial kingdom because they were alive in Christ and had reached the age of accountability.
Why is this art. Why is there this arbitrary age of accountability, where suddenly a person is no longer alive in Christ and accountable for their own stands and and susceptible to whatever affects Mormon theology the fall has upon them.
Just seems odd that if a person under the age of the is technically saved in Mormon theology. Why would they suddenly be unsaved at the age of eight.
Why would it undo that exactly and I guess the point I'm trying to make. There is that till Mormon. It doesn't make sense that there would be Original Sin. But it makes far more sense that there would be Original Sin than that we would be alive in Christ and then suddenly die afterwards eight years later and she really, really like using this analogy to cousin that that chapter it says that it is like basically heresy to even think that these children need baptism because baptism is for repentance and children do not need repentance and I love just using the whole this symbolically to me because of my click this this passage describes my condition perfectly as a stable Christian. I am a life in Christ. I do not need anything to save me.
You know it is just, waiter 10.
I guess use their own theology to kinda show them you know where I stand and and I guess part of the reason like one of the things he might kinda say to me is it like it is present at such a disadvantage, and it does you know like really takes away that agency that they hold so dear. If you can accept the doctrine of original sin within the answer to that is you know Christ you will the father draws draws the father draws us and and it's really just in Christ and his mercy.
And yeah, the odds are stacked against us with Original Sin, but man that's just nothing compared to the grace of Jesus Christ and what he is able to do for us. Matthew would you close I was thinking about all the objections at Latter Day Saints have specifically to reformed theology, but I think it applies whether reformed or not, because Arminians Armenian theology would say that they would agree that Original Sin occurs but then, then, God extends grace to basically all mankind to some extent so whether reformed or not you know they that we believe in the idea of original sin.
It's it's a it's an Orthodox Christian belief and so maybe they don't also associate two main objections.
One is that like you said, I think we ready kind of discussed it, you know, how can you look a little child and say that it's sinful, might my opinion. I kind of went as latter-day St., was that was that children neatly commit transgressions as we talked about earlier, but since they don't have the knowledge or maturity that they're not sin, though transgressions are covered in Christ atonement similar to Adam and and Eve's transgression so it's it's not that it was good. It was still breaking God's law but didn't have the knowledge it's kind of covered. It's kinda like it. It's Christ covered it for them automatically. Ask how I viewed children below the age of accountability so so when you bring up this idea Original Sin that were were were born sinners and I wanted to bring up some passages that talk about that but I wanted that one of the things that Larry sinful says what you think will. Children are sinners sinful and so then instead of trying to use my logic, I just put Scripture so once again please okay so Psalm 51 five in the English standard version says behold I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me elsewhere as I said in Ephesians 2 says at one time we all lived among them fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging his desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature children of wrath, and Psalm 58, three says the wicked are estranged from the womb. The liars go astray from birth so I think we have to admit, if we look at Scripture that says that my cause controversy because I know that there are a lot of questions that will will point to some passages as evidence of some age of accountability, but I don't think there's anything that clearly teaches that, based on Scripture were born with the sinful nature and were kind of born with this condemnation. So as a result, latter-day Saints will often point to common emotional appeal.
The say well do you think that every baby that dies is going to go to hell because of your Original Sin doctrinally think all these babies are to go to hell. And so I just respond. I don't know you know I don't I don't know what's in the mind of God regarding the salvation of infants you know if you're up to me I would you know of course I hope that all all those who die in infancy are elected and there there they receive eternal life. But I really can't say that way.
So we just have to have a true correct understanding of who God is, that he that whatever God does, it will be it will be right.
It will be just and we just have to have faith in him so and I know it's very difficult thing I have friends that lost children in childbirth, or the had children that they lost before they came to full term. And so we have to be very careful when we talk about the subject, but we but we have to be very biblical. We just have to say what God is spoken, that grace is free but you cannot force grace is passage in Romans says that the remnant was chosen by grace and not of works. Romans 11 so to the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace and if it is by grace, and it is no longer by works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace, so grace is not something that that we can demand of God or that we can work or are extracted from God. It's something that God gives willingly and freely so God could freely, willingly give grace to save all infants that's that's up to God and his choice. So that's that's one really big objection I hear from Latter Day Saints. Is this idea that we believe in all Christians believe there's always babies in hell.
But I have to say III don't assert that I don't know what happens to those guys die in infancy.
Germany going to the other one that is pretty common. I don't I take about airtime okay and the second big one is. Maybe it's more related to salvation by grace and not necessarily Original Sin but but I think that this idea that while okay here we are saved by grace, so you just believe and your good and you can sin all you want, you know like Greek. We can kinda just commit whatever sins we like but we see all throughout Scripture. All throughout the Bible that God is constantly reminding his people to come toward him to repent and turn away from sin all throughout the Old Testament we see that Israel we see them turning to false gods and idols and in the New Testament we see them falling all kind of gossip being in all kinds of sinfulness and and so God causally trying to pull us back toward him. There's few passages on it or read about that. So first Peter two 1111. I urge you, as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul.
Psalm 9710 hate you, will you love the Lord preserves the soles of his godly ones. He delivers them from the hand of the wicked first 1515 34 become sober minded as you ought to stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God, I speak this to your shame on James 121 therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness and humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. See Hebrews 313 but encourage one another, day after day as long it is. As long as it is still called today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and the entire epistle of Hebrews is constantly calling his people to faith in Christ and faithfulness and continuing in that faith.
So we don't see Original Sin as just thing like okay were sinful God saves us and them were good to go. You know were kind of just you know we we can kind of do whatever we like Original Sin.
It corrupts everything in a sale at work were completely corrupted by the sinful nature and God as to completely change our natures make us into new creations.
Second Corinthians 5 talks about is a complete changes radically changes in the some new creation, and we will not desire to do's and after that we shouldn't desired will will want to please God will want to follow Christ. So maybe that legacy. Maybe that's not directly related to Original Sin, but I mean that's just one of the big objections I see to Christian theology for sure but I think the probably the number one objection I see from Latter Day Saints is is the one Michael you cheated on the method you alluded to as well, and that is related to little children. The fair little children die and you Paul. Paul the apostle, in talking about the resurrection you have said that if Christ is not raised from the dead.
We are of all men most miserable in the point he's making areas that the resurrection did not happen then Christians are miserable because they believed in the false hope and I think that there's there's nothing more, nothing more pernicious than giving someone a false hope for them emotionally and spiritually and in as I think about some of the doctrines of Mormonism related to salvation for the bad and the definitive little children not I can't help but think that you know in some ways it's it's false hope, especially when you know the history of how those doctrines within Mormonism came to be the degree that Joseph Smith and Emma Smith must've felt at the death of their the best of the children and you can't help but sympathize with them, but to develop doctrines out of out of emotional situations seems to be a dangerous way to go.
And so when one of the things that is of as I become a Christian and studied that I've been really trying to do and I talked about before is is make sure that my theology just is grounded in the word of God because of primitive roots know anything about God is going to be his revealed word about himself and so I guess where I'm going with all of that is that I don't want to give anyone a false hope, and in Matthew, you were right to call out the reason we have to be careful talking about this because people have painful situations I have painful situations in my life that I think about when I think about these doctrines but like I was saying about listening to James White's book the forgotten Trinity while I was raking leaves and the thought that struck me the related thought that came with what I mentioned earlier was that I I didn't bring myself into existence. Humanity did not bring itself into existence and so we know our very existence to our creator and just like I didn't have anything to do with my first creation. I also am not responsible for my creation in Christ Jesus told Nicodemus when he came to on that one cannot see the kingdom of God unless unless the person is born again and I did not become born-again on my own, as was Michael. You said earlier in him being born is is the something that happens to you.
It's not the not something to burn about on your own and so in relation to the doctrine of doctrine of original sin. Yesterday, we do have to be careful about time I think we also had to be grounded in and the word of God and what it says that we touched on that fairly adequately here in this this episode, I think you said earlier Michael that when you when you have a biblical understanding Original Sin that really allows us to have a greater understanding and appreciation for the tone of Christ because if we don't think we're that bad to start off with. Then we really don't need that much help to become good or if we assume were already born good then then you know why. Do we really need a Savior, anything at the point then you really need to be driven home is that if we understand just how cell phone. We are just how helpless we were dead in our trespasses and sins were not were not sick or not, you know hurting were were dead and it's like, and I think that the instance of Jesus with Lazarus is the perfect example to demonstrate that he waited.
He could've come earlier and healed. And while you still alive, but he waited specifically to make sure that he would have died and he came to visit and then asked him why oh why did you come earlier you know, if you came earlier you could've saved them. And so it to demonstrate God's God's grace and God's power. He rose Lazarus from the debt from the dead and see came, he commanded him to rise up and to walk out of the tomb, and he did and I think that's Christ was trying to teach us something there. He's trying to say that this physical raising of the dead of Lazarus from the dead is analogical to God's raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life and if we were never spiritually dead in the first place. Then we don't really need to be brought to spiritual life. So I think once we have to understand those two things how they juxtapose each other. Spiritual death and spiritual life and how just completely incapable. We incapable we are of coming to God in faith without his grace. So once we understand that then we can truly appreciate him and and no just how gracious God is yeah I like that to you. Your talk about how Lazarus was was dead in Christ, back in just because Judaism was snarky person thinking general like the thought became my mind was all he was. He was only mostly dead, you know, and I think is a letter as a Latter Day Saints kind of how you you view your your situation. Even when you're in the grossest sin.
It's like I'm only mostly dad, but if you just mostly dad than that means the atonement of Christ is only mostly amazing.
You know the worse your situation is worse mankind situation is the more amazing the atonement of Christ actually is and Mormonism was its doctrine that that man is good that her man is the same species of God and all that does is it diminishes Christ, and it diminishes his atonement and what he did because it just really wasn't that spectacular absolutely.
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