Tuesday, April 29 | Corrupted and Infected by Sin

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I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis and today we are coming to the end of what ended up becoming a trilogy on the doctrine of Original Sin. We had one episode in mind. It was such a big doctrine, we ended up with three.

When the episode gets good, I mean sometimes you got to stretch it out. That's how you know the conversation gets good, man. You just don't want to stop talking about it and just for all of you guys who are watching, this conversation will probably end up on Discerning Doctrine.

You think Original Sin might be a good one for Discerning Doctrine? Absolutely. Where are my manners? Where are my manners, Ryan?

Where's the intro? I have not even welcomed the host with the most. Come on. He is here. He's austere. What's austere? Austere's not good, right?

No, austere's good. Yeah, like prominent, dignified. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Dr. Abidjan Shah. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for all you guys do and just let our listeners and our viewers know that we have an awesome team here at Clearview who put together our Clearview Today show day after day, five days a week and that's not counting our broadcasts on Sunday mornings and on YouTube and so many other media platforms, but every day to have a radio show, a TV show that is so good and so relevant and so informative and so uplifting. That's right. We're so grateful. Thank you guys.

Thank you for inspiring us to capture the culture and, you know, put our finger on the pulse of society and speak truth into people's lives. That's right. You know, Dr. Shah, today's verse of the day is coming to us from Romans chapter four and verse 25. A lot of Romans these past couple episodes. Coming to Romans chapter four and verse 25, it's talking about Jesus who was delivered up because of our offenses and was raised because of our justification.

That's raising some question marks in my mind. He was raised because of my justification. What in the world does that mean? Dr. Shah, for our listeners, when we say justification, referring to what Jesus has done for us, what are the ins and outs? What does that actually mean for us? When we talk about justification, we're referring to that we are declared righteous before God. And it is a status that we receive. And of course, there is a place for God beginning to work in our lives. And that is the next stage, which is more towards sanctification. But justification, I believe, is very important. This is, as Luther said, this is a doctrine on which the church stands or falls. And the imputation aspect of justification is very important, where he imputes our sins on Christ, and he imputes Christ's righteousness on us.

Now, we are a work in progress. And all that is wonderful, but that instantaneous work of imputation, I hope we never lose that part of our theology. Because truly, as Luther said, this is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls. Because if you take away the imputation, then salvation could be just, you are slowly dawning into life, or you can be saved one day and then it can be taken away from you the next day.

No. Imputation means it is done. The transfer has been made, sin on Christ, righteousness of Christ on you. That's justification. And that's a declaration by God. It's a declaration. It's a legal declaration. That's right. I love it. It's forensic.

It's forensic, my friend. Dr. Shaw, I gotta ask you a question. How much could you benefit from a million dollars right here, right now?

How much would that change your life? A lot. Well, I got good news for you, my friend.

It's time for a million dollar, what used to be Monday, but today is million dollar Tuesday. Okay. So here's what I'm going to ask you. One million dollars. And you have full authority to do this.

You have the full, if you speak the word, it will happen. You get a million dollars. You have to permanently halt production on the crazy horse monument. Oh, crazy horse monument.

Um, for one million dollars, a million dollars. Like if you show up, do you want to, do you want to tell our listeners? Well, I was thinking, I was looking through pictures of us on social media and I found where we went to the crazy horse. We were not able to get right up on it because of time. Yeah.

We did go to Mount Rushmore and our goal was to get to the crazy horse monument, which by the way, is pretty awesome. It's pretty cool. But it has been work in progress for such a long time that I don't think, even if I take the million dollars, it's going to change anything because they haven't made much progress on it. Yeah. Right.

So, but, but, but I guess what I'm saying is if you go in there and say, hi, I'm here, production is done, pack it up and go home. They will honor it. They will not make the, they will not make the monument. Could you, could you, could you, could you, could you, will not make the monument.

Could you, could you in good conscience do that? Well, I think, again, as I said, they are so slow in doing what they're doing that I don't think it'll make a difference. They're already not doing much. Exactly. So I'm going to take the million dollars.

We wouldn't see much of a difference because it's just kind of been in a, a waiting pattern. So Dr. Shah loves cowboys, like cowboys and Indians, all that stuff. Huge, huge fan. And when we went to Crazy Horse, I could tell it meant a lot to you. It was like crazy horse monument, by the way, for those who don't know, I love it. Yeah. It is, it is a cool looking monument, but you're right.

It has been really slow and it's looking like in our lifetimes, it probably will. Yeah. And that's, that's a shame because they really need to get behind it, get it done. It's, it's a beautiful monument. I mean, it's a massive mountain and you get close.

He goes, oh my goodness, look at that. But they've been sitting on it for so long because the original person who, who started that work did a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah.

But even then it took like decades. Right. So, so you'd pull the plug on it for a million, but it won't mean anything. It's like, it's like, it's like when you have a lamp shade or I'm sorry, a lamp or a mixer or, or a toaster that doesn't work. If you unplug it, I'm not doing anything. It doesn't work. There's no change. There's no change.

It's like unplugging a broken appliance. What about you? I would take it guilt-free.

I might feel bad about it for a little bit, but I mean, like I said, there's, there's no, there's no progress. How about this? How about this? You can get half a million, but you don't have to go there in person. You can just send them an email saying, Hey guys, this is done.

You don't ever have to see their discipline. If I'm going for it, I'd go there for the full million. See their disappointed reaction. I probably would. And then here's what I would do. Then I'm going to put my guys in there and get the job done. Oh my goodness.

Then you become a hero. Absolutely. So you would, you would continue the monument under your leadership and that's right.

Now, now knowing you, it would probably get done within what two or three years. If that maybe a little bit longer, it's a pretty intricate monument. If you, if you see what they're trying to do, it's like he's pointing and he is on a horse, but they kind of stopped right there, which is kind of a shame.

It's crazy. And he's on a horse, which I guess means it's, there is, there's the name, right? So it does make sense. Okay. Well, thank you. I sure do appreciate that. And I, I'm going to have to get my checkbook out unfortunately.

Cause you said you're both taking it. Yeah. That's going to be, that's going to be, go and start filling that check out.

That's going to hurt. We love hearing from you guys. If you would take that million dollars, write in and let us know two, five, two, five, eight, two, five, zero, two, eight, or write in for a daily check-in. Let us know how you're doing. And Dr. Shaw gave you some daily encouragement with what's going on in your life. We're going to take a quick break and be right back with more Clearview today.

Okay. Welcome back to Clearview today with Dr. Abaddon Shaw, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Dr. Shaw, like all good trilogies, you know, I'm talking Star Wars, I'm talking Lord of the Rings, Back to the Future, all that stuff. Shrek? Eventually Shrek. Shrek has four or five movies, don't they?

That's true. It's beyond a trilogy. Rambo.

I mean, Rambo, Rocky, Rocky has more than, but all of them, all of them eventually come to their third and final chapter. And today talking about Original Sin, it's, it is crazy how this conversation has evolved. We left off yesterday talking about the copy view, which as we all know is right out. This is of Original Sin. Yes, yes. And it cannot abide, but there were two more that you sort of touched on.

Do you want to kind of just, for those who didn't get to listen yesterday on the radio, do you want to just go through the three views? Absolutely. So we're talking about Original Sin coming from Romans chapter five, verse 12, which is one of the most hotly debated passages and has been for over 1700 years.

Wow. Began with the time of Augustine of Hippo when Pelagius, this Irish monk, was pushing the idea of the copy view or the imitation view of Original Sin, which means this, we have no connection with Adam. When we are born in this world, we're born neutral. You have the choice to sin. So when you sin, it's not because Adam sinned. No, you sin. And when you sin, you're copying Adam.

No connection. And Augustine vehemently opposed that view. He vehemently opposed Pelagius because he knew the problem with that view. For one, it is not biblical. And secondly, it's not practical. All you have to do is look at people, look at children. When children are young, you have kids, our kids are grown now, but you have kids and some of you have kids who are still in diapers right now, you know, you can give them 20 toys and they can be playing with only one or two. But in walks in another kid and they will immediately get upset. That is the phase of life. You have to touch that toy.

I am firmly entrenched in that right now. That is my life. Reminding to share. We're going to share and we're not going to snatch toys back just because you saw someone else grab it. You didn't want it until the other kid came in. And it's my first one that I'm having the problem with, the one that's old enough to know better.

He is the one. So that again, Pelagius was a monk, so maybe he did not have children and was not aware of how toddlers behave. It's pretty evident you're not spending time around kids. Does it also imply that it's not necessarily true that you will commit a sin, therefore you could live a sinless life?

Hypothetically, yes. But he will say that when you do sin is because you're copying Adam. And again, we don't have to be taught to sin. We sin because we are sinful human beings. And the second view that we sort of touched on in the last episode was the corporate view. This is the one that Augustine espoused. And the corporate view says that we all sinned in Adam. Corporate means we're all connected. Group solidarity. So when he sinned, we also sinned.

So somebody may say, in what sense did we sin in Adam? Think about it this way. My grandmother was an RN, registered nurse in the British Army. This is World War II. And this is before my grandfather and my grandmother had my mom. Now, what if my grandmother had died in that war? Would I still exist today? No. My mom wouldn't exist.

Right. Because if my grandmother was gone before she was born, then my mom wouldn't exist. And consequently, I wouldn't exist today. So in a sense, I was in my grandmother.

Okay, that makes sense. I see, that's interesting, because I was thinking of it more like, like, if our president, current or past, does something that someone in Europe doesn't like, and someone in Europe came here, they would say, hey, you guys did this, you did this. And I would say, no, I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

They'd be like, but you're an American, you did it. But this is more like you are in Adam, spiritually speaking, but not just that he represents you. Right. But here's what I would say. That analogy sort of breaks down because we are connected, but we're not like in each other.

You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like you depend on your grandmother. Right.

I depend on her existence. Right. I am not dependent on George Washington's existence. Right.

Now I exist as an American because of George Washington. But we're not guilty as Americans. Right. There's a difference there. Gotcha. So yes, the analogy sort of works. But it breaks down at a certain point because you require a genetic connection. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. And so if we trace it back to one common ancestor, that genetic connection is there. Right.

Not a cultural or a national or even a civilization connection because now unless you are like in Europe where many countries, they're very related to each other. There's nobody else there. And if immigrants are there, they're outsiders. America is a unique country where it doesn't matter what color you are.

If you are an American, then you are an American. Gotcha. Right.

There are no layers and levels. And I see you may feel like that because maybe you grew up around prejudice or whatever. And that's wrong.

The sinful is tragic. But overall, if you're an American, you're an American. Like I'm an Indian because I grew up in India. But once I came to America and I was naturalized. You're an American. Then I'm an American.

Yes. I don't no longer I say that I am an Indian citizen. I'm not.

Mm hmm. Now I'm an Indian by birth, but I'm not an Indian citizen anymore. I'm an American citizen.

I'm very proud of this nation. Right. So in that sense, there's a difference.

The corporate view is more what you're saying I think is that the corporate view is it depends much more on you depending on Adam. You wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. So when he sinned, I sinned as well, because in a sense, I was in him.

Gotcha. Which makes sense in light of our conversation about sin being a power in the world instead of just some sort of spiritual concept. Because it's affected us genetically, not just physically. It's affected our genes through our ancestor, Adam.

And that's where the third view comes in, which is the corrupted view. And according to the corrupted view, we all sin in the sense of being inherited Adam's sinful nature. We have the germ of sin ever since Adam and Eve, we have the germ of sin inside of us. Now it's not a physical germ.

It's a spiritual germ. Of course, physically death came in because of sin. And so physically we're also dying, but spiritually we have the germ of sin. And here's where we sin individually.

So because we were in Adam, we already sinned, but because we have the nature of Adam, when we do come in this world, we sin. Yeah. Got it. Would you say the corporate view and the corrupted view are sort of linked? Yes. Corporate is I sinned past tense in Adam, so I'm guilty.

Corrupted is I sin because I have the corruption of Adam in me. Got it. And that's present. Got it. It's two halves of the same issue.

In some sense, yes. They're related. Gotcha. Gotcha. So while we don't hold to the copy view, we would hold both the corporate and corrupted views.

Absolutely. Sin and death have come into the world through Adam. People sin and die not only because of Adam's sin, but also because they sinned themselves due to Adam's nature in them. Well, I think the original check-in was this isn't fair. It's not fair that I'm being punished for Adam's choice, Adam's sin.

Why am I guilty? Because he did something. And we sort of answered that in the sense that it's not about whether it's fair or not. It's just a fact. Think about it this way. There are people with genetic diseases because of a parent's genetic makeup, they have the same sickness. Like diabetes gets into our lives.

Right. And it's not because we ate gobs of sugar. Some of that is because you are just genetically built that way.

Certain diseases that people struggle with is because cancer and things like that is because it's just part of your genetic makeup. It's not fair. I know it's not fair. It's still a fact.

It's still a fact. That perfectly works here when it comes to original sin. It's not fair.

Who is saying it's fair? Right. But here's the problem. When people say that they fail to understand that God understands that it's not fair. Right. That's why God sent his son into this world. Right from the get-go, from that judgment, that curse that was pronounced on the serpent, who was really Satan. The gospel was already given right from the beginning.

Yeah. God would not have done that unless there was another way. And I think what people, maybe this is me speaking out of turn, but I think what people misunderstand is that they think God, because he's all powerful, he can contradict himself. So he can sweep it under the rug. He can forgive it. He can snap his fingers and the wish is granted.

No more sin. But God, I think they have problems with thinking, okay, there are things that God can't do. He can't contradict himself. He can't become unjust and not punish sin. And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. Because what I typically hear is, well, he's the one doing all this.

He's pulling all the strings. And then if you say, no, he's not the one creating this, they say, so are you saying that sin is more powerful than God? And it's not that sin is more powerful than God, but God has to work with what humans did because he created them. He can't become unjust. Well, he's also holy. The primary attribute of God is that he is holy.

For God to compromise his holiness, would to compromise his very existence. And if his existence, his being, his essence is compromised, the entire universe not explodes, it implodes. It goes away. It can't exist.

It cannot exist. Yeah. When I was in high school, I did pretty well across the board in subjects in math. One of the one of the maths that I struggled with the most was geometry. And the part of geometry I struggled with the most was not the angles I did fine with that. But it was the proofs.

Like, here's this, here's this statement, here's this statement, here's this statement, if these are true, then this. I had a hard time. I was like, can I just show my work?

I just I'll do better if I have the math problem. But that is one of my most favorite proofs that I've ever heard. If God backs away from his holiness, he backs away from his existence as God. And if he backs away from his existence, then the universe ceases to exist. And we are no more.

Right. And we're we're so bound by language too, because I would, as a non believer, I would say, so God is trapped. God is trapped in being he's, he's got all these different conditions. And now he's trapped. But that's even then that's just a prison of our own language, because God has so orchestrated the universe to be this way, because it is good.

Right. It's not trapped, because this is who God is. This is not something that God has to endure.

This is his very being. Holiness is not a burden. Holiness is not something bad. We've made it bad because we're sinful. Right. And we want to do what we want to do. Right.

We've made it bad because we'd rather listen to the world, the flesh and the enemy, rather than the goodness that God offered. The essence of God, we think is love because we like that feeling of love because love, you can have so called love, even if it's impure and evil, but it's a feeling of I'm attracted to this person or this thing or whatever. So we like that part of God, because it's something that we can selfishly use for our own benefit. Right. But holiness is very hard to use for our own benefit, at least tangibly. Right.

I agree. So we prefer the love of God or even wisdom. We're okay with wisdom because, oh, I can make some wise choices and benefit myself. And still benefit.

Yeah. So holiness, how did that benefit me? Well, it really doesn't benefit me. It actually takes away all the fun of life.

So I don't want that. Yeah. That's such an interesting concept. I never thought of it like that, but that's true. Absolutely.

We like those. And that's why people are all about God is love, man. God is love. And then even quote for us, John, God is love. And he who loves is of God, love, love, love.

And it's like, yes, yes, yes. Desserts are very good. Steak is wonderful, but there are also other things that are fundamentally important for us. Vegetables. There's some veggies on your plate.

Yeah. People don't like veggies until the doctor says, okay, so your sugar is just like way high and has been for some time. We're going to have to start you on insulin. What do you mean? Wait a minute.

What do you mean? No, I've been eating right. I really like the desserts. You need those vegetables. Holiness is kind of like that, I would say in a sense, but even that is a very faulty example because unlike vegetables that I have to endure, holiness actually is good. That's right.

That's right. Once you begin to live that holy life, you realize, so I was willing to go into sin and enjoy sin because I thought that is, that is fun. Well, it is just like eating vegetables in a way, because at first it does, it does. But once you start eating vegetables and once you, not that I know, but once you start eating vegetables, you do start to feel better. I mean, you've been eating, you've been eating like a lot more vegetables here lately and you feel better and you look better, you know? And I think it, it, it ends up benefiting you in the long run.

I'm trying to eat my vegetables. I appreciated that moment of honesty. Not that I know. If I can suggest a couple of books that people may find interesting in their study of not just original sin, but sin itself. And I've always been, uh, partial to, to not to sin, but to, uh, cross way publishers, because most of the time I would say when it comes to sin, original sin, they are right on. If not all the time, because their works on original sin take a more biblical, a good exegetical theological view. Of course, there's a lot we can learn from other systems of theology or people with different views, but these have to be fundamental. If sin, if we get sin wrong, my goodness, we got the wrong theology.

So we got to get sin right. And I have always been, uh, benefited by crossway publishers, uh, their works on sin. So there are three I want to recommend today and maybe two, if we have time to mention, the first one is Thomas McCall's against God in nature, the doctrine of sin. This is part of their foundations of evangelical theology series. And, um, it has been recommended by a lot of people, but it's a great work. I have used it time to time.

It came out in 2019. So it's pretty up to date. If you talk about references, but it talks about sin, according to scripture, just looking at the table of contents, the origin of sin, original sin, the doctrine of original sin, the sin nature and the nature of sin, the wages of sin, uh, where sin abounded sin and grace, all of that.

So great work. I wholeheartedly recommend against God in nature. Um, so that's what we have here against God in nature. Great, great, great book. The second one I would say is, uh, uh, called fallen. Let me go there first and then I'll talk about the big book. That's a voluptuous tome right there.

Yeah. This one is called fallen again by crossway publishers fallen and a theology of sin edited by Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson. Great book.

Again, this one came out in 2013, so it is a little older than this one by McCall. And unlike McCall's book, this one has different authors on different chapters. So you have, um, sin in the law by Paul house. You have sin in the gospels and acts in Hebrews to revelation by Robert Yarbrough.

Uh, you have sin and Paul by Douglas move. So different authors. So it's a good same view overall, the same gotcha.

Yes. So that's a good work to have on your shelf. And the third one came out in 2024. It's called ruined sinners to reclaim sin and depravity in historical, biblical, theological, and pastoral perspective. Oh, I was going to say the title was pretty cool. The title was like a callback to the hymn, the subtitle. Uh, yeah, I wish, uh, I wish they'd truncated that a little bit, but still a good book.

2024. It came out and it's a great work. A lot of chapters here, sin and depravity in church history. Uh, let's see if I can turn our page over here. Sin and depravity in the Bible, sin and depravity and theological perspective, sin and depravity and pastoral perspective. And under each of those headings, there are tons of chapters. Uh, one chapter like here would be sin in the Jonah and literature sin in the Paul and epistles by Jonathan Gibson. So if you want to really dig into the doctrine of sin, I'd wholeheartedly recommend these three works.

And I will put those, we will put those in the show notes so that you guys can get them on Amazon. There is one book I want to mention in passing. This is called so great salvation. Now this has, uh, is very different. This is about the ministry or the history and message of the Keswick convention. This is about the, you know, the life in Christ kind of movement. I'm not like wholeheartedly sold out to this view, but, but it has a lot to commend. Right.

And they do a great job. This is a book that came out, I believe in, uh, 1952. Wow. Written by Steven Barabas. And, um, it has a chapter on sin, the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Great chapter. And I have over the years appreciated it. So just, just a side note, very good one to have.

Love it. So helpful. And this conversation has been incredibly helpful in reframing our understanding of sin, what it is.

There's so much depth there, but when we truly understand the doctrine of sin, we can better understand the doctrine of salvation. That's right. A hundred percent. So good guys, make sure you join us for tomorrow's episode. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the clear view today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And you can always support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes. If you want to re-listen or you can support us financially at clearviewtodayshow.com.

John, what do you want to plug as we close? Just definitely want to say you'll be hearing all of this again over on discerning doctrine. That is exclusive series on pray.com. Make sure you go subscribe right now to Dr. Shah's page. Thank you to everybody who has already subscribed and is giving to the ministry. We appreciate your support. And we're just going to keep making content for you guys to make, help you have a clear view on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear View Today. So this episode of Clear View Today is brought to you by Mighty Muscadine. If you're looking for a natural way to boost your health, Mighty Muscadine has you covered from a hundred percent muscadine grape juice to premium healthy supplements.

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