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What About Original Sin?, Pt. 1 (Articles of Faith Series)

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The Truth Network Radio
October 4, 2020 12:01 am

What About Original Sin?, Pt. 1 (Articles of Faith Series)

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October 4, 2020 12:01 am

The sons of light discuss a doctrine that often places Latter-day Saints at odds with orthodox Christians. Original Sin is the doctrine that humanity's fallen nature prohibits individuals from coming to God and salvation on their own. Mormons have a strong doctrine of free will. The questions we discuss here tease out the theological and scriptural differences.

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All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.

It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening. However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry. That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist Paul Bunyan when I was in high school and taking LBS release time or seminary classes would spend the first class. Citing Scripture mastery versus one of them was to me 5 to 25 which states Adam fell that men might be an memoir that they might have joy and noblest knowledge in this passage establishes the idea of the fortunate fall suggestion established more explicitly elsewhere in this cabin that Adam and the fruit of the knowledge was necessary to bring about the preparation of their offspring. The book of Moses is Joseph Smith's expansion of Moses encounter with God on Mount Sinai expandable Genesis material to support his theology, Moses chapter 5 is present in the saying of the fall were not for our transgression.

Never should've had seen it in membership in the joy of my redemption to eternal life, which God giveth them to all other Scripture mastery passage was Mosiah 319, which states for the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever remembered unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit component off the natural man and become at the same the atonement of Christ the Lord and become a child, submissive, make humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seen fit to inflict upon him as a child to submit to his father.

This passage supports the idea an obvious theology that humans are free to choose the second LBS article of faith is typically seen to reject the doctrine of original sin is classically described in Christian theology, it makes believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.

All of this comes together Mormonism's genetic approach to free will and historic Christian theology, and introduction Alister McGrath discusses the doctrine of original sin and the thought of Augustine wrote, quote central point which Augustine makes is that we have no control over our sinfulness is something which contaminates our lives from birth and dominates our lives. Thereafter." McGrath notes that Augustine discussed original sin using three analogies personality transcends a hereditary disease is passed down from one generation to another is because humanity and cannot be cured by human agency second analogy transcends a power which holds us captive and from whose grip we are unable to Bedford by ourselves human free will is captivated by the power of sin and may only be liberated by grace through analogy transcends essential judicial reforms, a concept guilt which is passed down from one generation to another McGrath contrast Augustine stop without a theological sparring partner Pelagius of her McGrath wrote quote for Pelagius, however, seems to be ambushed by a different light disposition toward Sam has no place in Pelagius. For Pelagius the power of self-improvement cannot be thought of as coming is been compromised" in the sense Mormonism takes a similar approach to humanity's will and choice as to plaintiff's Mormon apostle James a Talmage's articles of faith, wrote the following quote true God has given commandments and his established statutes with promises of blessings for compliance and penalties for infraction. The choice of venues manner untrammeled in this respect man was no less free than are the angels.

Except as his credit himself with the bonds of sin and forfeited his power of will and explore some soul mutual has as full measure of capability to violate the laws of help the requirements of manager in the commandments of God in matters both temporal and spiritual as he has to obey all such, seems to give credence to the idea of the bondage of the will. But then just as quickly seems to contradict himself determine Talmage Mormonism correctly, I think you have to note that what Talmage is saying here is that humans are blown free and made by the choice of same to put themselves in bondage, but they are not in bondage to sin.

From birth, but I found interesting is that this is a different approach to original sin than in finding say Robert Miller including him from proclaiming Christ, which is a Christian scholar, Pamela says, quote every man and woman who comes into mortality does quote consent.

Consent." One person's consent into a world of sin into conception becomes the means by which mortality fall and winter the flesh is transmitted to the posterior without effects of the file are inherited." So Talmage and Millicent present two very different views to original sin. Mormonism so this will talking up-to-date ability to send over some major bondage of the will or free will. That's were tackling soon as I think I think the first thing to come and tackle before jumping us is whether or not at W Stockton accurately and introduction how do you think about something about what I think that you did a really good job something summing it up as a summary, I think there's definitely some things he dive into Hustler to be doing in the podcast but as a as a basic introduction absolutely nail Melamed Hustler from what I understand I it's hard to remember that the different views in my past study the stuff.

It's hard to keep it keep it all straight from when Eric caught the guy was pretty accurate think. I think it's difficult like you said is is sometimes you read a passage that sounds like it goes one way and then in the same passage or else where they might sound like to go a different way so hard to get all straight and sometimes unite to come across is a lot to like in reforms and things were Latter Day Saints will say some some things sound completely different and then when you try to bring them to the table and say look like she's saying this in your saying that they will agree with each other and say oh well this is still within the scope of you know LDS doctrines of like as an umbrella. There, and as long as you're just within certain certain distance of the core doctrine is ways that they say things but we know they actually mean something different like all were saved by you know I grace and somebody else might say were saved by works, but they're actually saying the same thing that makes sense now does it. I think it's hard to reconcile Talmage's statement go with Phillips because Talmage seems to assume directly on a completely free and will write an individual has as full measure of capability to disobey, as it has to obey. And Miller is presenting a view that seems much more in line with the classical original sin that the man inherits the sin nature and effects of the fall are inherited without idea that that the effects of the fall list, at least in terms of guilt that we get to talking about the second or the second article for it seems like when I when I was LBS 10 years next year so I fix bugs seems like when I was LBS.

The idea of original sin was anathema in my mouth – there is hunting how I kinda proceeded and am putting on my apologist head here a little bit but it was my understanding there was an original sin, but that which is viewed differently from traditional Christianity, so come to earth with a clean slate, but with a fallen nature and so were going to be prone to sin a lot more but that doesn't mean we have sent and so I think that's how I would try to reconcile mobility and Talmage here because it's like yeah were conceived in sin because were conceived with a sin nature and were going to mess up at some point and that's why we need to have a Savior but but ultimately yes we still have that choice but I'm a regular talk in Sacrament meeting one time now. Something about that. We can choose our actions, but we can't choose the consequences for actions and sometimes the consequences hinder our future agency and use an example, he said at this moment I have the ability to run 2 miles and if I practice every day you noticed or train everyday. Someday I might build run 10 but if I sit on the couch and eat potato chips and ice cream every day. Well she say that my real life right now is a reflection of that. And I can't run to see my wife so that's how I viewed it that our actions either hinder or promote our agency asset that seems consistent with one statement from Talmage (angels, except us in spite of himself of the bonds of sin and forfeited his power will enforce soul so there's certainly a possibility, but to an extent. I misread misunderstood stock on original so it's all about original guilt more so than some major think it's fair to compare sin and will to those of plaintiff's I would say for my understanding of Pelagius's view is that he was. He believed that there was no such thing as original sin that that as far as we are.

We are completely free to perform good or evil so I don't think the elders she was quite think it's exactly like that because like you said, we do still inherit a sin nature in the sense that we think, how would you describe that we are more predisposed to commit sin. I think they would say were still free to do good or evil because they quickly from Rob. I believe that they believe that the atonement claims the sin of Adam's transgression, and because of that free porn passage like that right's second Nephi may be set on the unit earlier possibly might be the Lord talk about oppositional things. I think you're right to, but so they believe that that Christ there is atonement made it possible for us to do good and evil that were kind of free to make that choice that were in that we are not guilty of that transgression, and they always stress that it's that was missing was transgression because Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge yet because and taken the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So when they were transgressing God's law that enable full knowledge of what they are doing so they don't consider to be a sin so that they would say that sin requires both committing an act against God's law and it requires a certain level understanding risk for spiritual enlightenment in order to do so. So I think that also correlates to might be getting off topic but what correlates to the idea that they have of the age of accountability, where before eight years old. No children will do things that are not in accordance with God's law.

But since there without a certain level of maturity or understanding.

They don't consider it to be sin, so I think it's kind of the same concept. So yes I don't think it's entirely like Pelagius you it's I think from promptly pointing like Pelagius believed that where were completely free to do good or evil. We we don't have were not burdened by were not burdened to go more one-way than the other way.

Maybe I misunderstood. Maybe I'm not quite assessing acquire it would. What do you both think something about you know what I experience those in the church so I think you you got it signified 227 is one of thinking of were four men are free. According to the flesh, and all things are given them which are expedient unto men and they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all men or to choose captivity and death. According to the captivity captivity and power of the devil for easy get that all men might be miserable like unto himself. That's when I was thinking of so I still have them memorized. How sad is that I disclosed where I was picking out the commonality between Pelagius and Talmage says this is one of the graphs is different. Pelagius the power of self-improvement cannot be thought of as being compromised and Talmage says although God's commandments promised blessings for compliance and penalties for infraction. The choice and mentor untrammeled so I will boost your statements no power of self-improvement is not been compromised, being the same thing as saying that their choices untrammeled trampled the choice one is going to trample the choice to sing mature in some sense, is the choice trampled but say in response, I pointed out that Talmage seems to say one thing that seems to contradict the statement was that was kind of my understanding of the posterior friend will writers that were describing not guilty was paid for by the atonement of Christ and of course we will make mistakes to choose evil, and my understanding of anthropology is that at least a theoretical level is possible for someone to completely different, so I didn't think it used to think that yes, it is possible to be completely obedient. Justin was really not likely to be near impossible to know because of that sin nature and that it was just gonna pull us down, but you I'm really discussing about how our choices really aren't your trampled by by what we do, by sin, and I think this kind of a paradox in Mormonism because on one hand you got like that Scripture in the book of Mormon… You know Satan. He likes to wind us up with his his flaxen cord, and then he binds us with strong chords and he seals his leg.

It's like yes there is a point where it becomes too late because you are complacent, but then also see a lot of these apologists will all talk about sin and how none of us are perfect and and then I'll start yellow to make it personal. Like while you telling me that you're perfect and I'm assuming no bugs interesting. Is there not slowed down by their own sandal and on time. They just they just excuse it really easily enlisting lime on the path as long as I'm on the path by confines.

It's a lot more about learning than it is about actually being cleaned. Like all work here to learn to be gods and images they hate the idea that God would just give salvation away for free because we haven't gotten anybody's.

We haven't gotten out battle scars and and you have to do something and so that is just a paradox that I've seen in the church that on one hand, it absolutely slows us down and binds us in another sense it doesn't seem like it's a big deal of the D sense of the case seems for all of LDS theology and timing to report your article and publish this McMichael so theoretical level consists have free will as consent up by Mormon theology for the field article level someone. Completely center their lives, then we wouldn't need a Savior and soft systems as well. Okay that's not really possible. Right now it's not – the question of what Jesus did on Mormon theology because same species. So what will Jesus to do it that were either matching couldn't do it right. But Babcock ties into the point you were making the first point in the article. This McMichael about God is good fall from God, which is the office, the opposite side of the coin. If someone just by their own will.

Talking on on August theology were all the same species on some can justify their own will and perfectly obedient one. Why would God not to. This is just the opposite side of the sampling seems to be a major problem for LDS Christology that the topic of Christology.I guess one thing the that jumped in my head is the also have a lot more going on. Mormon was a lot more layers to the seriousness of difference in you know the name. It's like slick Catholicism where you got like some penal stands and cheat.

That's what enabled me to take the sacrament most Sundays because you're not supposed to take it in the church. If you are unworthy and every time a train would come around like what I definitely did some things wrong this week. But no, it wasn't a major sins so that I would still partaken consider myself to be more than because I just I wasn't counting about with what you're saying.

It's like, yeah, theoretically we be totally obedient and not need Jesus on the other hand, for saying that all of us have sinned and fallen short while some of us might not really need Jesus that much mainly just need him to make up an inch that we fell short, and that's a big difference between Mormonism and Christianity has in Christianity you recognize that you are wretched sinner and you have made it that and he's gotta make up the whole thing, tease out the difference between humans was alluding to write where Adams active is active is not as a sentence is a transgression right is not as serious. It's not billing to God about really connection is up I think is a difference in the way that is viewed. It's interesting that LDS lovableness is there coming out of Mormon faith will react very strongly against shame and guilt that they felt within Mormon culture, whether it's know in relation to traditional news or whether it's in relation to having felt judged by members of the reward for coming home from a mission or having sex out of wedlock or who knows what one man been but there's this sense that they have that they felt that amount of guilt and shame within Mormon community.

Blessings, something us talk about quite a bit on to some of the boards where evangelicals LDS discuss things from my experience that I think all evangelicals tend to portray a much more strong view of seriousness of sin, but less guilt and shame to find that case as well and I think that's correct. I think it's it seems like the guilt that at least in my experience that I ask that I had while is the LDS church was that the was the fact that like so there's this tension were taught both that we need to strive to live in such a way that we can attain exaltation because Ron become like our heavenly father.

So we want to strive to retain his perfection.

So there's this this grinding kind of tension in that was in my heart and my mind saying like, okay, I need to work like I really needed to be pleasing to God like I can even get upset people. I can even now say a word that's insulting someone or even in my head so I'll be constantly checking the things I did wrong that day. But in terms of like the seriousness of just cried. I don't think I really truly understood when when I came out of the discharge he realized just like just how completely offensive.

Our sin is to God. It's it's not merely just like oh we didn't reach perfection, you know like we got try better tomorrow and they will get will be closer.

It's like the chasm between God's holiness and our sinfulness, according to God's word in the Bible is just so vast just fine out there like it's such a huge gaping wide chasm between us and God that it's like it's not it's there's no Matt there's no quantity of perfectionism or works or effort that can help you get anywhere close to God, so would you realize that and you really understand. Okay like I can't do it. That's when you really just at least for me.

That's when it when God just collect empty myself and maybe realize that it's not up to it. I really do need a Savior, not just someone who gives me the ability to do what I need to do to reach God's like he has to actually pick me up and carry me the whole way.

Nothing I can do can even contribute to it and I wanted back something your talk about earlier where Mike is on the same topic where no Mormons are really thin, and Mormonism.

We were really taught really, really understand the full significance of our sin against God, and I think it makes sense when you think about your theology as a whole. Like James White mentioned in one of his videos for your talk with Jeff Durbin about Mormonism and he said that the whole reason that they do have a such a lower view of sin, and in God's holiness is the fact that when they see God.

They see a man just like them. Someone who went through the same trials that we do every day.

So when you see that you look at God you don't really see sin is that big of a deal. It's it's kind like when you watch a little kid stumble or fall off his bike. We going to ride the bike, so you help them pick himself back up and get on the bike and then he keeps trying like as an LDS view of sin that's kinda how we saw is just like a little a little stumbling block. But you get back up and keep trying, thing. So when we only have the incorrect view of who God is, that if we see God is someone like us. Someone who overcame the same trials as we do, then you will have a correspondingly incorrect or distorted view of what sin is so Buddhist I often see Joan." In discussing this topic with Mormons that most bill appeal to experience, to support their belief in Original Sin room, and often, Mexican chocolates once a little so an evangelical will point out like if you don't Original Sin just looked at the toddler seat C on the boards get so incensed about suggestion right because you know that as you pointed out, Matthew Latter Day Saints, as the guilt of samples was paid for by the atonement of Christ. So when a child is born.

It's it's simple blank slate, and so this tension sometimes between evangelicals Latter Day Saints over this topic.

Original Sin does does lived experience playing a part in your position on the Stockton mall and if so how, so I don't remember you talking about, like beyond being eight years old were you talk about when I was a located just exceeds his precise the fortress. I guess what I mean is when you when you look at humanity actually play a part now in position on the Stockton community definitely does mean is just cool to you learn something in the Bible, but then you see it all around you everywhere you just constantly thinking like Rosalie yes my thought was, and what is basically good but more good than evil Ellen in the small things make me so angry. Evangelical Christians believe God's will for like 99% of his creation and how it's like, what about Mother Teresa and what about the southern good person and these nice atheists and and I thought people were just just good analogy. I look at the world is everybody & Matt, how can people be so evil is like I couldn't see it before analysis as plain as day, but that I think when things really started to get me out of the church was was actually starting to see in myself to and being an Institute Monday and the instructor was saying he's courting that passage in the D&C, and since he sins against the greater light receives the greater condemnation and I pose this question and I said are we doing people a disservice by bringing them into the church and giving them that greater light because you were were setting the bar higher and were making that judgment stricter on that person is alleges caused you off of firestorm in that Institute class.

It was pretty crazy.

Like the first time that I stir the pot you know and look at me now you just become a seed in myself because people nematodes would ask me like you think you going to the celestial kingdom like well know, like fact I'll be lucky if I make it to the celestial kingdom element so you it's just love the stuff started to shatter my view that managers are naturally good, we have a natural leaning towards God, and we look that's definitely not true at all. So when it comes to so I think there's. There are several aspects to Original Sin. Part of it comes down to the fact that because Adam send all all of sin. Maybe we'll talk little bit about that, as it says in Romans five so there's that aspect where where I believe the Adam meal because Adam send, where all kind of complicit in that sin, even though we went there in the garden. He represented all humanity. That's collector the reformed view of of Adams federal headship that he represented humanity. So when he rejected God and his and his commandment than all of mankind fell with them all kind of in that same boat so there's that aspect within if you're talking specifically about the fact that were born and were kind of born sinful by nature and I think it does play a part, but I think it it wasn't made most clear to me until like Michael said when you read Scripture and you read what it says about the nature of man and then once you really understand that that man is sinful by nature that we are you know that, but it's not our choices that make us evil. You know what were kind of born sinners. Calvin said that our heart is a factory of idols were just by nature were just really good at creating idols out of everything and and doing what is pleasing to us versus God, and I think this is most evident. You can look at the world around us and you can see evidence of that, but I think my view of that was based in Scripture. But as Michael said when you read that you understand Scripture receipt everywhere. I mean you look at all the other religions of the world. All of them revolve around some concept of okay you are in the state to achieve some kind of higher state, you have to follow X, Y, and Z and if you follow this path or perform these rituals or do these good works, then you will achieve some higher state or some kind of higher steel existence. So when you look at Christianity. It's it's the exact opposite is not about what we do to achieve salvation.

It's what God has done for us is condescension giving his life in the sun so so it really is has to be based in Scripture. When we when we are on where coming when were trying to decide what is true and what is false, but I think that the world around us does confirm what Scripture teaches.

There's attention, proceed with the morning technology on this point. So not too long ago I post one of our groups on Facebook, reverence, plan back to Mosiah three 1900 quarterly financial for the natural man is to God and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever and the schedule sanitizes of the Holy Spirit off the natural man, the same for the atonement of Christ the Lord. So I asked the question of letters, things will point off the natural man is because the passage seems to imply that the doctors the stature right business is natural man but that has a signature and as a result of God. The changes that is the atonement of Christ, but how is this doctrine of free will and so the question becomes how does how does a person accepting atonement of Christ by state of being a natural man and God, into a state of the same in this passage, Mosiah 319 says that the person must yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit off the natural which seems to imply the requirement of having food will yield the Holy Spirit, and yet there is no application in the first line that the natural man is an enemy to God, so the passage seems contradictory and kind of stuck tension within Mormonism. Where, lipservice lipservice to the site that we have assumed miniature war in heaven was fought over Fred will so that will is, all bound up in this question. In this doctrine of Original Sin. So the next question.

I think we should tackle and this is one where you could see how well you did your homework. What does the Bible say about human will over talking or talking post fall. Obviously, I think most of us reformed confessions of admit that Adam and Eve in the garden. They were they had no sin nature. They were, in a state of innocence in the sense that so we would agree in that sense with with Latter Day Saints where they were free to choose both good and evil. They were not compelled to one direction of the other. But now, after the fall we see that there is no true freedom meet and I'm saying is I received from a more reformed perspective, but I'm not saying it is because you know I want to call myself reformed and you and I want to jump on the bandwagon, but one is really starting us out.

I think it's really clear in Scripture that we do not have a truly libertarian autonomous free will and some passages you can point to demonstrate this are Romans eight so I'll read a little bit here from the English standard version says for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit for to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So it is says that those who are not in Christ have not been born again have not been changed by nature we are enemies to God and we we cannot even submit to God's law. We we don't even have truly the desire to to submit to God's law. So this is also confirmed in special-purpose up already, but Ephesians 2. So Paul speaking here is convinced continued from Ephesians 1 race is a speaking of all these blessings that the true believers have in Christ. So Ephesians 2 verse one says and you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. So I think these two passages are sufficient enough to show two things. One, that by nature.

As a result of the fall we follow after the lust of the flesh revived people and so that is just what we do, that's what we desire. We we we desire. After the sinful things and to that we we do not desire to follow God.

We do not desire to submit to God and and we are not even capable of submitting to God. Colossians 21 also says that it's Bob split up China misquoted so Colossians 2 verse 13 and you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcised never flesh, God made alive together with him for giving us, having forgiven us all our trespasses, so he says of the former state before salvation and of the state after salvation. The former state. They said they were dead in their trespasses and on circumcision of your flesh so were spiritually dead where incapable of doing what's pleasing to God now dismisses this goes back this is this is an old view. This is something that just count John Calvin, but this is this goes all the way back to Augustine when he was going against Pelagius. He affirmed the doctrine of original sin and he affirmed the need of God's grace and salvation and that that we are completely in bondage to our sinful desires without God's grace. So when you when you see those two contrasted Augustine. He said they were born with a sinful nature we cannot please God. We cannot come to him without grace and Pelagius who said that were born, basically with a with a neutral nature are not willing no where were capable of doing good and evil, you see that with those contrasting views really see that that was why they were so different and why the church opposed Pelagius. So I think I think personally think that the Scripture is clear that truly free will to do good or to please God is not possible.

Apart from God's grace in men really like that that the statement that we are dead in our trespasses because you just might LBS perspective you and you think about legwork from the dead.

Somebody has to go and do that work for the dead person because a dead person cannot go and get baptized are really doing anything you know and all of you guys ever tried to teach her a dead corpse, like how to drive her you know how to work anything but it's impossible. And if you do 99% of the work there never ever to pick it up so it just definitely shows that we couldn't do anything where my completely helpless and have the free will just be saying and this is the same thing in the in the book of John, Jesus says no man can come to me except the Father that sent me should draw him so God's got a God's gotta make that move. You know, we don't have that that ability when I do think there's some some some agency in our lives. Blessings just so minimal like I can decide what to have for breakfast. You know one thing I'm thinking about little bit to use just all the prophecies in the Old Testament talking about how Christ would be crucified and what would happen if the Jews at that time.

It just, you know said you know what light was just as our agency and that's not it's not crucify him you know if those policies hadn't had happened it would make God a liar and yet you know those prophecies were made and noticed God's knew exactly everything that was going to happen and we were powerless to stop any of his plans that I was listening to his earlier this one was closed and I was distancing James White's the forgotten Trinity on audible and once she was looking for some some biblical passages and just struck me as I was listening. I thought you all know I'm working through the various universes reformed positions on the question of free will for a while now is constructing the thought that no, at least in my own life. I before I really knew Jesus love God and I just cut the thought struck. No one comes to no one who loves God on their own, presents this default position that we all will come of this blank slate and and one intent.

People are generally good and I know it's fixed as a fullest position that while people are to awaken people enable right time to human interactions with most people just by members % right, but it's the biblical position that no one comes to nonconstitutional the love of God on their own. God works first in their life and the thought struck me as I was originally that's LBS wound us into that position presented to the turn in this way and asked them how do you know what what what you two God might LBS person was had God work in their lives, because I believe there are LBS people who are born again of how God work in our lives know this person has had God work in their lives. They will say they will talk about how God works in their lives and I just think that's interesting that lived experience. In my opinion, shows that no one comes to God on their own mill. There are there are technologies like domestic knowledge and that asserts that the that would happen, and they may countered by pointing to that passage, I can as I three that says that we have to yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit. So I think they would probably say that God is calling all of us that he's draw. He's trying to clean out to eat. He's trying to entice us trying to call us to him. You know, give everybody the opportunity to come to him and then it's up to us to kind of accept that call and end there are and are Christians a kind of have that perspective that it's like you know the that may accept the fact that there is original sin. And there were sinful but that God is is trying to entice everyone by different ways and that it's up to us to choose God, but I don't think it has to be much more than that because when we look at those passages it's not just a simple, you know, making a simple choice to go down the correct path. It's like we're just so corrupt by nature that even if we see the right path. We don't want it.

That's not what we want. We love sin by nature. We we just want to jump straight into sin even if we know it hurts us know it is like going through up through a garden of roses is like we just love those roses so much and will get pricked and will bleed all over the place. We just love it so much. We just can't get enough of it and it's not until God actually does something to us to change us, so that the wheel actually want to come to God and and another problem to you is that there may be those who say they want God or they want peace, but as I said you know we were so good at coming up with their own understanding of who God is. We we, if were not changed by God himself will invent a God that we prefer will choose a God that that is more enticing to us.

That is more palatable.

So we are always finding different ways to to kind of appease our gilts or to appease our consciences are to reach some some kind of status of peace, but until God actually works in our hearts, we won't actually be able to grasp onto that salvation was that that was the point that James White was talking about on the audible book. I was listening to was just that – humanities proneness to God of our own choosing right and no one no one comes to the true God comes to the Godman field in the Bible on their own.

They are drawn and no one comes to love that God is revealed in the Bible on their own.

They are drawn into that love by God himself, and I thought… Just just struck me as important at that center that will do a lived experience. So many people may say no will will I I'm good person and I will and I love people and I and I and I think there may be to God, but not not that God that's in the Bible.

And so the thought just struck me another moment, so that true faith on the realm is not just as Michael John six is not just the Bible says that it's it's a lived experience of talking to people and people there in their quest for faith and to the point and goes to Messiah through. That was exactly what I was trying to tease out the question I post blogs is that at one point does a latter-day St., not because a lot of the same theology posits that someone can fall from salvation benefit is held responsible for those sins. If they don't repent of those sins. And so can fall from salvation. So I was asking the question. You know I will point you no longer an enemy to God's natural man is prone to some fall from salvation by summing a bump of the planet life no longer can God and no one will touch the question at all, but I was the plan of the past. I was trying to turn accountings out there. I actually asked a question kind of like yours and Wiley's forms one time is trying to ask them if the church ever does many baptisms for the dead. Like, what are you talking about what will they still have their agency right thinking. Choose to be baptized in the spirit world and certainly some of them choose to imposter signs right and and didn't like that at all. The music will meet you know we don't know.

But the thing is like building a theology you never say until you've endured in the Emden and if there still agency in the next life, then you still not reached the end. And so you're constantly in the state of peril and anything constantly. Following is not something we ever think about you and they would attempt this work for the dead and witnessing okay in the works but Don, like happy endings all around the site. While that person still has their agency so you don't know that but just go along with what you say into just really like this verse and now first John chapter 4 verse 10 point says Karen is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins, the first got part to my article on why I still love God covers my first encounter with that passage. While I was on my mission so for the game but but she's kind interesting here because I think Mormon theology kinda says that when we love God. He reciprocates that while to us but but Christianity is none of us love God and and he gives us undeserved love and grace. And that's what opens the door for us to love him back.

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