This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. Liberty has never been just a word to we Americans. It has guided every one of our endeavors for the past 250 years, and now it takes form in a new way. The 2026 Semi-Quincentennial Coin and Metal Program from the United States Mint.
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I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. If we got clear facts, maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting.
Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. What's up y'all? Summer's got a different temper.
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The public. Was outraged and irritated because the cameras. eliminated the human element. And there are a bunch more reasons why all of us as taxpayers were annoyed and irritated by the red light camera ticket. You Eastwood and Beavis Shock decided to do something about it.
They're civil rights lawyers in St. Louis, and they filed three separate cases. all three of which were heard by the Missouri Supreme Court in one big morning argument. Here's Beavis Shock. and new eastward.
to tell their story. I got into civil rights law 25 years ago, early in my practice. I ended up working on a civil rights case on a referral. I felt great about it. I won my first civil rights trial.
And I decided that I would vastly focus on that in my practice, which I have done.
So the red light camera tickets cranked up and when they first started It was just a little small program and the alderman I don't think when they passed it, they had any idea what it would turn into. But in St. Louis they were issuing these tickets left and right. And I thought that this idea of giving people tickets for running through a red light by a tenth of a second, which a cop would have just ignored. shortening the yellows, which they were doing to increase the revenue.
Early morning, people coming home from coffee or going to coffee. No right on red. There's nobody within two miles, right? The intersection is completely. Unattended, so the person goes ahead and goes right on red, even though it's a no-ride-on-red, and here comes a red light camera ticket.
No officer would bother with anybody, or if the officer did bother. Might pull the person over and say, Hey, you know you're not supposed to do that. I'm not going to give you a ticket. There's nobody around. It took the human judgment part out of it, which I didn't like.
And it and then um What happened was a radio personality named Charlie Brennan. got one of these tickets. And he He called me during a break in the show. and briefly explained and I said, I will do it. on the condition that we do the entire representation on the air.
And He said, okay. I stayed pulled over. We did the first interview right there, and every single interview I did with Charlie started with the same Question. Charlie, you have a right to a confidential relationship with your attorney. Would you like to waive that today?
Because there are hundreds of thousands of people listening. This is the number one station in St. Louis, the Mighty Mox, KMOX, the blowtorch of the Midwest. And he said, yes, I would be this. I'd like to give up my right to confidentiality.
And then we discussed right there. Like he was a brand new client, and I agreed to represent him in the case. Because I didn't like the way it smelled. At the end of the day, it was my nose that told me this is wrong and it's bad. And then we ended up with three or four clients.
And we ended up with um three cases at the Supreme Court of Missouri and we won them all after about four years. I'd say that It struck me as fundamentally unfair. And That was a sentiment I noticed a lot of people Having. when we would go on the radio. with our client.
Who's a radio host? The Switchboard would light up when this topic came up. And I think it just struck a chord. That this was wrong, it was unfair, and it offended a lot of our fundamental notions. of how the relationship between the community and the police should be.
and also how our court system should work. And remember, most people only interact with the court system. In municipal court on a traffic ticket. I mean, most people aren't getting arrested for serious crimes, which is a good thing. Most people aren't being hauled into court and being sued on some complicated theory, which again is a good thing.
So most people don't have much litigation in their life. And if they have a negative interaction with the government, it's going to be for something pretty minor. They're going to get a ticket and have to go to municipal court.
So it's really important. for the relationship between the government and the community. for that process to be seen as fair. and also for it to be seen as pursuing justice. Rather than for-profit motive.
And so There's a phrase which is not mine, which is taxation by citation. And that was what was going on here. And we knew that this was a revenue grab. Because one of the arguments the cities had in these cases is that we need this money. And that's what struck me as unfair.
This wasn't about a legitimate exercise of the police power to promote traffic safety. In fact, if it was about traffic safety, they would care about who the driver was, after all. Here they didn't care. We're just going to go after the owner. One of the things in the red light camera cases was that.
people who were not driving. We're getting tickets. for running a red light. It was that it was the owner would get the ticket, the owner of the car, because it was done by license plate. And then who owned that car?
That violates some basic principles of how our criminal law works. Many of the criminal rights, but not all of them, are in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. Your right to remain silent, right to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation against you, the right to be confronted with the witnesses against you. These are all in those amendments. But interestingly, the right to be presumed innocent is not in those amendments.
But it's deeply ingrained in our case law and our system of jurisprudence from the common law of England. We felt that One of the effects of these cases was to help make those rights further enshrined in the law. We had cases from different cities in our region. Two of the cases we were in a defensive posture, right? Defending someone who owned a car.
From a red light ticket, or from a in Charlie Brennan's case, a speeding ticket detected with a camera. The other case, we were offensive. We were seeking to get an injunction. to shut down the city of St. Louis camera program.
And Everyone showed up, including the private camera company. They have their own lawyers. Very good lawyers, lawyers that I respect, very talented, skillful, well-paid lawyers. The debt collectors who were trying to chase people down for these tickets, they had their own lawyers. Everyone was there.
There were a lot of lawyers in the courtroom. But yes. That this was not about money. This was not a class action. This was really shutting down a system.
And We were able to do that. I I will say in candor that uh We were a little nervous because After This wonderful, unprecedented experience of having three Missouri Supreme Court opinions issue on one day, all in your favor. We thought, I mean, that's about as good as it gets. We had some n nerves. Because we read a kind of narrow path for these cities to come back and have another bite at the apple with these red-light camera programs.
And so we kinda thought it might be like whack-a-mole. But so far in the St. Louis region, that has not been the case. Let me add that that I think we knew. When we were going through those several years, that if we won, it would help our business.
Help our business more than all the advertising in the world. In fact, being on the Charlie Brennan show, this radio show. uh that has a huge following. You really can't pay for advertising like that. No, you can't pay for publicity like that or advertising like that.
When we come back, more of this not merely amusing piece, because it's making us all smile listening to it, but it gets you a bit angry too. And this is where our great legal system comes into play. And great lawyers like you, Eastwood, and Beavis Shock. Their stories continue the Red Light Traffic Caper. Here on Our American Stories.
Liberty has never been just a word to we Americans. It has guided every one of our endeavors for the past 250 years. And now it takes form in a new way. The 2026 Semi-Quincentennial Coin and Metal Program from the United States Mint. It celebrates the founding ideals that have long shaped our coinage.
Available one year only, this historic collection features new coin designs, limited edition releases, and reissues. Shop new official coins at usmint.gov forward slash semi-q. That's usmint.gov/slash S-E-M-I-Q. This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party, hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't-miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
Experience music performances from major artists, patriotic tributes, and the kickoff to Giving Forth, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark celebration at America250.org. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.
It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. If we got clear facts, maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts.
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Goodbye. And we continue with our American stories and the story of the two men who ended red light traffic cameras in their state and took it to the state's highest court. Their argument about why these red light traffic tickets were against the law. and an abuse of power. Let's return to Beavishock.
and you eastward. More of their story. One good favorable article in the paper. about a news story, about a win. does more than all the buses and all the billboards in the world.
Because it helps. not only get one's name in the public eye so people call for help. But when one walks into a judge's courtroom, And the judge knows. Hey, this guy got me out of my red light camera ticket. That helps.
And it doesn't mean the judge isn't going to follow the law. rule as he or she sees fit. But it does mean that our papers will be read with care.
So we got something out of it. And to this day, People walk up to me on the street. and say, aren't you Beavis shocked? Didn't you do that red black camera thing? Yes.
Thank you so much. That's such a good thing you did for this community. That's a big deal. And the problem with the whole system, of course, is that usually the fines were around $100, sometimes a little more. And the problem is, it's just not worth it for most people to fight, to take time off from their jobs or their lives.
Over $100. That can be a lot of money to some people, but it's not enough money to mount a serious legal defense. And so there was this very clever thing that the red light camera companies, which were for-profit companies, were doing, which was. pitching These very cynical strategies to municipalities as a way to raise money. And we knew these companies were corrupt.
Because In one of the companies called RedFlex, Had executives go to prison. They also had officials in Chicago and other places get investigated by the. federal DOJ and go to prison.
So there was something that was really offensive about this. The other thing is it was really a I guess what you could call a cross-ideological uh sense of outrage Most people driving around living their lives Thought that this was unfair and that it was wrong. And we know from policing that When policing works, it's because the police have trust with the community. And that usually involves old-fashioned things like going out and being a regular beat cop in the community. It could be running traffic.
I suspect people don't like getting speeding tickets or traffic tickets. But at the same time, if this person is actually in the community. and is someone who is building trust with the community, that's policing that works. And so There really wasn't any evidence that red light cameras were having much of a traffic safety function. A lot or the ev only evidence was city officials saying You know what?
Yep, in our view. They promote traffic safety, which we just thought was cynical. In one of these cases, we actually went on. To have a civil trial against the city, and when the jury saw the revenue that the city was making, the spike in revenue in association with, in fact, issuing warrants. They found in favor of our client and gave her $100,000.
So I guess the final thing, it was an opportunity to go all the way to the Missouri Supreme Court. And at the time, as a newer lawyer, this was a great case to work on. And I also knew that if I really Just fouled this whole thing up and really did a terrible job for my client, which was not my goal, but at least the worst case, my client would only be out $100.
So if my that was about the limit of my malpractice exposure as a young lawyer. Uh I would add that It was perverse that People who were trying to be good citizens suffered more than scoff laws. And the reason for that was that if people didn't pay, all they got were a few letters saying pay. Nothing happened to them. There was no warrant for their arrest.
There was nothing on the driver's license. Nothing happened.
So most citizens really believe in the rule of law. that we all understand once that disappears. a lot of our liberties will disappear. Again. Good citizens therefore paid the hundred dollars.
And the bad citizens didn't, and nothing happened to them.
So bad conduct was rewarded. and the working class person. with good intentions, who understands the importance of the rule of law, is dramatically affected, and the scoff law schmuck neighbor gets the ticket and doesn't care. And that contributes to a decay in our community's ability to live together in a civil manner. And that was a part of it that really bothered me.
I would also say And we got into this in our case involving the city of St. Peter's, this excerpt. of St. Louis. The cynicism I think Of the city's arguments in favor for these programs was detected.
By the jury, and the city's arguments were rejected.
So, for example, The city said, Well, this is how we pay for seniors to have transportation. This idea being that if somehow you shut down this red light camera program, you're going to leave impoverished grandmothers on the side of the road, unable to travel. That which is Polony. Guess what? Those programs existed before, like Canvas, and they exist today.
I suppose there's political support for them, and it provides a service to members of the community, and that's a legitimate government function. But the point is, is don't act like we're attacking grandmothers. The cynicisms of the arguments in favor of these programs. I think is what helped doom them. There really was not political support for these.
It was taxation by citation, which is an improper use. of the police power. You should not be renting tickets to people or or issuing fines to generate revenue. And so What that Judgement does Its force Not just St. Louis County, but cities and counties throughout the state of Missouri, and perhaps nationally, because it's applying the First Amendment.
First Amendment doesn't uh change but you cross the state line. What it does is force them to go through their books, examine their laws, and rewrite that. And I know that Beabus knows firsthand from a conversation he had. uh with a lawyer who practices uh On the government side, that's exactly what they're doing, and that's a good thing. I mean the idea that you'd ever mix For-profit business and criminal law enforcement or traffic enforcement is nuts, right?
Because the incentives are all perverse. An interesting question is what will happen in other states? Does this radio broadcast effective. any decisions by lawyers to do this. attack these systems.
One of the things that might happen is people might listen to this, and some lawyer, and it needs to be a lawyer with some experience in appellate work, who's argued at a Supreme Court of the state before, who's ready to go. It's got to be somebody, and the big law firms will never do it, right? Because they are part of the establishment. They love that money coming into the government because they've got government contracts. to write up the law on bond deals for for municipal buildings and things.
So It takes a certain level of craziness. to want to do something like this. Uh when we think about America John Maynard Kinch said we're all dead in the long run.
Well, my kids aren't going to be dead, and their kids aren't going to be dead, and their kids' kids aren't going to be dead. They're going to be alive. And what a raw deal. Would we give to our descendants. If we let America Go if we let the delicate balances of the Constitution and the principles of the Declaration.
Be set aside because they're not convenient right now, or because people fail to recognize how well they work and what they mean. And I understand that the war never ends. But to be able to work on a case like the red light camera cases. is an opportunity to live in to those beliefs that we have a duty to our descendants who we don't know yet, and both my own Gene Poole, my own kids and their kids, but everybody else's kids too. George Washington didn't have any kids.
That didn't matter to him. It doesn't matter whether you do or not. We're part of a larger community here. And great job on that piece by Greg Hengler. And a special thanks to you, Eastwood, and to Beavis Shock.
What a great story. Those two guys are both civil rights lawyers in St. Louis. And look, they're right. I mean, in the end, the country is formed because of those general warrants and writs of assistance that allowed British troops to just come in and search away in American homes.
was literally the founding reason and the impetus. For the Declaration and for everything else that happened in the Constitution. And this was, as the lawyer said, taxation by citation. Government is here to serve us. We're not here to serve the government.
Great work. By both you, Eastwood, and Beavis Shock, for all the lawyer jokes that you've heard. This is a nation of laws, and when you need one, you want a good lawyer to defend your civil rights. A great story about the rule of law. and so much more here on Our American Stories.
Liberty has never been just a word to we Americans. It has guided every one of our endeavors for the past 250 years. And now it takes form in a new way. The 2026 Semi-Quincentennial Coin and Metal Program from the United States Mint. It celebrates the founding ideals that have long shaped our coinage.
Available one year only, this historic collection features new coin designs, limited edition releases, and reissues. Shop new official coins at usmint.gov forward slash semi-q. That's usmint.gov/slash S-E-M-I-Q. This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party, hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't-miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
Experience music performances from major artists, patriotic tributes, and the kickoff to Giving Forth, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark celebration at America250.org. I'm U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy.
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