Matt Slick Live

A previously recorded Matt Slick show. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live. For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everyone.

Welcome. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick live. If you want to give me a call, wide open. Let's see, 877-207-2276. A lot of times people call towards the end of the show and it gets overbooked. We don't get to them all, but if you want to call now, that'd be a good idea.

Again, 877-207-2276. All right, so let's see, we're having the Israel trip thing and let's see, we did the video, I exposed it, not exposing, but talking about the Israel trip. Eric Johnson and I did that, so if you're interested in checking that out, you can. All you got to do is just go to karm video.

I've got too many things on my head, my mind now, karmisrael.com, karmisrael.com, and you can check it out there. All right, so what I'm doing is I am preparing a video area where I plan to start converting articles to video and then extracting the audio out of them and supplying a place along with articles and other stuff so people can just listen and or watch. It's one of the things you're hoping to be able to do and have it work out, so hopefully that'll be good and I'm going to be needing some video editors and stuff like that because I got too much to do. Oh man, I got so much to do.

Wham wham, there's a lot to do. All right, and hey, by the way, we have free schools if you're interested in checking out the schools, you want to learn theology, apologetics, and critical thinking, all you have to do is just go to karm.org forward slash schools or forward slash online hyphen schools and you'll get to be able to check it out. We charge $33 per school and if you sign up for all three you get, I think, one for free or something like that. I forgot exactly what, but we use them to help pay the bills and pay the missionaries and keep the lights on and things like that. However, if you don't have the money and you want the schools, you can't afford them, all you have to do is just email us and say, I don't have the money to pay for the schools.

I'd like to have them for free. Just like Matt said over the radio, bang, we just give it to you. We don't ask any questions.

It's okay. We want people to be educated and we trust the Lord to provide our needs and that's what we do. That is what we do. So does that sound good? I think so. It sounds muy goodo, I'd like to say.

Bad Spanish, but it's a lot of fun to talk like that sometimes. All right, I think that's about it. I can't think of anything else. So we got four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Jacob from Wisconsin. Hey, Jacob, welcome. You're on the air. In Matthew 26, 64, Jesus says to the high priest that you'll see him coming in the clouds of heaven.

How did that happen? In Matthew 26, 54, it says, put your sword back in his place, all these things. Matthew 26, 64. Oh, 64.

Okay, let me see. But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to him, I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you're Christ the Son of God. Never said to him, you have said it to yourself. Nevertheless, I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven. He's quoting the Old Testament and he's drawing allusion to his own deity by quoting Psalm 110. And he is demonstrating to them that he is God. He's attributing that return or that moment of God's work, Psalm 110, 1. The Lord says to my Lord, so it says, Yahweh says to, I believe it's Yahweh. No, it's Adonai.

I sit at my right hand until I make the enemies a footstool. So what he's doing is he's claiming his own deity and by ascribing that, that you will see this. Now, a lot of times people think when he says you will see, he means literally you will see, but he could be speaking generically to the people, generically to those who are wicked like them. You're going to see this. And it could also be that when the day of judgment occurs that they're going to die and that Jesus, when he does return, in some way, somehow, they will be witnesses to that in their place of torment. And they'll have some witness. That's one of the theories.

Okay? So we don't know exactly. I've heard in some sermons that they said that this is the partial preterist saying that it was a coming in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD. Yeah, that's a full preterist who would say that. Full preterists. No, this is a partial preterist. You said that?

Okay. I'm a partial preterist and I don't hold to that position in there, but that's okay. Yeah, the full preterist will say that Jesus returned in the armies of Jerusalem and armies of Rome and destroyed Jerusalem.

And that's what that means. But it doesn't say that. The Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power coming in the clouds of heaven. It's not the army of Rome coming into Jerusalem. But what they try and do is say, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting. They say, well, that must mean that they have to see it. Well, not necessarily. I'm not trying to make excuses, but not necessarily. Because there are exaggerations that the Jewish thought regularly spoke. Let the dead bury the dead. Truly, truly, truly denying our only Lord and Master Jesus.

A name which only Jesus knows. There are exaggerations of things that are spoken of to elevate the person or the idea. And that's what's going on here. He's elevating himself and quoting scripture to do that, knowing that they're going to accuse him of blasphemy and want to put him to death for that. Because notice what he says there.

I mean, what they say. He deserves death in verse 7. He deserves death in verse 8. He deserves death in verse 66. Well, what did he say that deserved death? Because death was claimed to be God or for extreme blasphemy. So why is it that they were accusing him of extreme blasphemy? Because God is the one who's going to be returning in the clouds.

They knew that. God is the one. And so you will see the Son of Man, and he's talking about himself. So yeah, they want to kill him for claiming to be the Son of Man.

Okay. The other thing I was wondering is Matthew 2434, when it says this generation shall not pass, people would say that it's a future generation. But is there any other place in scripture where that is used?

I think also in Luke 17, it talks about it. Let's see. Let's see.

Let's see. A generation. But first, he must suffer many things, be rejected by this generation, just as has happened in Noah. Shall I say you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not. So these are some of the verses the Preterists will use. And they'll say, see, what I just read you was out of Luke 21, 32 incidentally. And they'll say, see, that means that they will see his return.

They will see everything. And it doesn't necessarily mean that because it can certainly mean that the generation that then lives, because he does speak eschatologically, and he's talking about the return of Christ. With the return of Christ, they will see the Son of Man coming in on the cloud with great power, which is what it says in Matthew 24, or 26, no, 27, 66, 26, 66.

That's right. So it's not an easy one to get through. And I sometimes suspect that what God does is purposely leave things confusing, purposely, so that we won't know exactly, because if we do, it'll change how we behave and what's going on. Let's see, Son of Man sitting in the right hand of power, put a man in a cloud of power and great glory. Yeah, Luke 21, Matthew 26 are similar. So we know that Jesus is going to come back the way the angels prophesied he would come back in Acts 9-11, and he'll come back the same way he ascended into heaven. So it cannot be that it was through the armies of Jerusalem.

And most probably, there's two options. One option is that Matthew 17 is when the transfiguration occurred, and some theologians think that that is what is meant by you will see the glory of Christ coming on the clouds. Some people think that might be an illusion of that, but I don't know. And some think that it's preterist view, and some think that it's partial preterist and is to be fulfilled with the generation that is alive when these things start happening.

All right. Because I had listened to some sermons by Greg Boston, and he was taking the partial preterist view and said that it was talking about coming in judgment. Yeah, it would make sense. Absolutely. Coming in judgment. He certainly is going to be coming in judgment.

He prophesies he will, and he's going to be returning in judgment. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. One other question. Sure. I had one other question.

Some people say that the Roman Catholic Church could be called a synagogue of Satan. Is that correct? I didn't hear everything you said. We had some weird sound coming.

I don't know if you heard it or anybody else did, but I did. So could you repeat the question? I've heard some reforms people say that Roman Catholicism could be called a synagogue of Satan. Absolutely, yes. Is that a legitimate application of that? Yes.

I believe so. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is a synagogue of Satan. I believe that there are demonic forces in the Vatican teaching demonic doctrines. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the greatest gate or door of damnation of any religion on the planet. That's what I believe.

And I don't say that just to be sensationalistic. I believe it because I've studied scripture and I study what official Roman Catholic theology teaches, and it is antichrist as far as salvation goes, and it promotes idolatry in the form of Mary. And so it is a false church and they don't seem to really understand what regeneration is. It's a religion that you participate in. And salvation is not by regeneration and indwelling of God in you by being born again. It's by the quality and the attributes of the church and the authority of the church and the sacraments of the church and everything else in the church. And so they've functionally replaced the Roman Catholic Church, replaced Jesus with the Roman Catholic Church, and then have taught heresy upon heresy. And I can read them.

I can go over a list of them on the air sometime. I do it every now and then because people think I'm just whacked. How could you say that about the Catholic Church as Christian? No, it's not. It's apostate. It's a false church. And I've always said that. Once I started studying it, I realized how grotesquely bad their theology is. And then I started to say, nope, it can't be true. It's not.

It absolutely denies essentials of Christian faith. Okay? Okay, thank you. You're welcome. God bless.

Okay. All right, let's get to Dean from Raleigh, North Carolina. Dean, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. Hey, I appreciate you taking this call. Sitting here listening to the caller before me, I have a quick question about that call. What exactly is a preterist? Eschatology is the study of end times. And full preterism, we have partial and full. Some people just call it preterism and then partial preterism, but I call it full and partial for distinguishing. Full preterists will say that Jesus, everything spoken of in Matthew 23, 24, 25, that range and Luke 17, all was fulfilled by around 70 or 72 AD. The return of Jesus was accomplished in the army of Rome that came in and destroyed Jerusalem. And that's full preterism. Partial preterism will say, no, that's not the case.

But it was a partial fulfillment in Rome's destruction, but it will be completely fulfilled when Jesus returns. I have a dual. Okay there. So hold on.

I got a break. Okay, buddy. Hey folks, we have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy. Looking back to the show.

I think, let's see. Uh, we are with Dean. Hey Dean, uh, are you there?

I'm here, Matt. Thank you so much. All right. One of those small pleasures in life.

I always wanted to be the call to us, go it over during the break. So I can check that off my list now. Thank you. Okay.

This is probably a simple question for you, but I really am curious. The story of the, um, the parable of the sheep and the goats. Can you use crayons and small words and tell me what's going on in that story?

What, what is happening there? It's eschatological, which means end times. All the nations are gathered in verse 22. I mean at verse 32, uh, and he will separate them from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep and the goats. The sheep are on the right side. The goats are on the left side. Left is the side of judgment. Right is the side of salvation. In fact, when you find out that Jesus told the disciples to cast the net on the right side, they caught fish and 153 fish.

And there's some interesting stuff about that. So he says in verse 33, you put the sheep on his right, the goats on his left. And, um, he said to the king, you come, you were blessed with my father inherit the kingdom of God.

Those are on the right. So those by definition are already saved because they are sheep. Goats are not sheep, sheep. Jesus says, my sheep, hear my voice.

They follow me. Um, 10, 27, 28 goats are the ones who are on their way to hell. They're the unredeemed. And he says, now he's talking before the crucifixion. All right. He's talking to Jews who are under covenant obligation. He says, you did these things. Come to me.

Come you who are blessed with my father inherit the kingdom of God, prepare for your foundation of the world. For I was hungry. You gave me something to eat. I was thirsty.

You gave me something to drink and stranger. You invited me and naked and clothed me. And they said, well, when do we do this? I said, well, when do we do this? You know, we didn't do that to you.

When did we see you hungry? He says, when you did to a stranger, you invited me in and naked you clothe. They're following the aspect of, of loving her neighbor out of Leviticus, 1918, which Jesus recounts in Matthew 22, 39. So what he's doing is simply talking theologically covenantally, the people of Israel, you are obligated to do these things. And if you do these things in the covenant context, you're going to be fine. It doesn't mean though that they are going to be saved by their works because they're already sheep and they are sheep because we're given by the father to the son for safekeeping. Matthew 27, excuse me, Matthew, uh, I mean, John 6, 37 through 40. So that's what's going on.

I guess, I guess that's where I was, that's where I was confused. So because they're sheep, they're doing these things then, right? They're not doing these things to become sheep, but how am I trying to look at it? And what's, what's the right way to look at this? So they're, they're already saved.

There's, that's not even what's happening at that point. You think it's correct on the day of judgment, the sheep are on one side, the goats are on the other on the day of judgment. So they're already determined. You think a ghost looking around thinking I'm supposed to be a sheep because I was doing those things as well, or is it already?

Some will. In fact, in Matthew 7, 22 and 23, Jesus says, many will say to me in that day, on that day, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name, in your name, perform many miracles, your name cast off demons, get away from me, I never knew you. So they were appealing to salvation. They were appealing to salvation based on their own faith and their own works. But this is not what's happening here.

They are not appealing on it to us here. Jesus is saying, you did some good things. And obviously the reason they're doing good things is because they love the Lord. They say, Lord, when did we do these things?

They're humble about it. Their works aren't part of their salvation issue. And Jesus saying, look, you did these things. There's a reward for you. But it doesn't say the reward is for salvation.

It's reward because we have reward for works. Okay. All right. Thank you. I appreciate that.

That does clear it up for me. Okay. Well, good. All right. Well, God bless you. All right. Thanks for that.

Okay. Let's get to Daniel from Portland. Daniel, welcome. You're on the air. Hello. I called on Friday. So I, first of all, I wanted to thank you.

You're a member. So I'm, I'm doing really better, much better now. And well, this question that I wanted to ask is, some time ago I wrote a book. It's called Racing Toward Armageddon. And just talks about how world, three little religions, Judaism and Islam and Christianity help bring about like Armageddon, you know, that idea. But I, I know Christianity doesn't want the world to end. It's not. Well, do you have a question?

Yeah. My question is how would I respond to like somebody who's accusing Christianity about being violent? What you do is you say, show me where Christianity where Christianity teaches violence. Go to the New Testament.

Show it to me. Just because someone who plays a big Christian. No, that's God's judgment.

Yeah. That's God's judgment. God has the right to judge and he is the judge, but Christianity is not taught being violent. We are Christians. Christianity is our religion. We teach love and patience and kindness. What it also teaches is that the Lord God himself will execute judgment upon the wicked. And just tell them that's what the difference is. So I say, you show me how Christianity is violent. And what he means by that is that it keeps violence like we're supposed to practice it.

Like Muslim, Islam does out of surah nine, but it doesn't in the Bible. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. And if I can ask one more question. Sure. Real fast. Real.

Yeah. Like, uh, so if a Christian were to commit a suicide, do we have any, um, support that he would be saved? There's no, uh, comment in the scriptures about someone who could have been suicidal, whether they're saved or not. Suicide would be a sin. It's a self murder, but I've written an article on this and, um, you know, I hold to the teaching. I hold to the teaching that we cannot lose our salvation. It's not dependent upon our goodness or our badness, but upon Christ's faithfulness. And, uh, there's reasons for that. So if someone kills themselves, then, uh, that means that they're not in the right mind for one thing.

God will of course take this into account. I'm not saying it's okay to do that. I don't advocate that at all. Uh, don't make a short term decision with that.

That'll have, uh, eternal consequences. But, uh, you can go to the calm website and read the article on it. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I appreciate. All right. Sure. Okay.

All right. We have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, folks, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Give me a call.

Kathy from Iowa. Welcome. You're on the air. Yeah. Hi. I hope you can hear me.

Sometimes you're glitching a little bit, but I just wanted to make a comment. Sure. I heard your comments about the Catholic church and Catholicism, and I want to say thank you that I try to have conversations with people about this subject.

You know, not heavy conversations, but I teach a lot of, uh, Catholic children. Well, we get a break, so hold on. Okay. And we'll get back to you.

I don't want to hear what you have to say. Hey folks, we have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the show.

Let's we have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Let's get back to Kathy from Iowa. Kathy. Okay.

Where were we? Hi there. I was making a comment.

I'm on a show right now. Um, um, I was making a comment about what you did with what the comments that you made about the Roman Catholic church. And, um, I, I am, I am a coach. I coach a lot of Catholic children and, um, and, and they're wonderful, loving people, but you are absolutely correct in every single thing that you said.

And I wanted to say thank you for nailing that on the head. I just had that conversation today with someone about the false gods, you know, asking other people to forgive you. There's only one, one that can forgive you of your sins. And that is Jesus Christ.

You can't pray to mother Mary or anything like that. And I tried to explain the history of the Roman Catholic church, the indulgences and the practice of indulgences. And that should have been a huge red flag that there was, there was something major wrong, but I just wanted to say thank you so much for, you know, for, for saying those things and for being on the air and for, you know, for trying to let people know what the truth of God's word says. There's a lot of people out there that not that I'm any, you know, like, you know, we all stand and we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And I'm not, I'm not trying to sit in judgment of anybody because Lord knows I can't do that. But there's a lot of people out there that, that, that think that, that what, what they're, what they're doing or what they're believing in is correct.

And the Catholic church is a huge road down the wrong path. Huge. So thank you so much.

It's a damnation. Thank you so much. Hey, you're welcome. I just wanted to say thank you. Well, good.

I'm glad. Okay. Well, I appreciate that.

All right. Well, God bless. You have a wonderful day.

That's what I wanted to say. I just wanted to say that thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be said in the face of what I'm sure at times is a lot of heated feedback. And I just want to say thank you for having the courage to do this day after day. Well, thank you. Appreciate that.

Thank you so much. Bye-bye. Okay. Well, God bless. All right.

Yeah. If you've got more questions on Catholicism, I can answer them. Oh, it is so bad, folks. Catholicism is really bad.

People just don't know how bad it is. Mark for North Carolina, welcome. You are on the air. Hey, Matt.

Good to talk to you again. All right. I was reading something the other day, and I heard you talk about this, and it's Matthew 1330.

Oh, yeah. It says, you know, at the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, gather me together first the tares. And I've always, you know, you always think that the church is going to be raptured out first. And that always confused me. But when I was reading Revelations, I want to share this with you. And I'm wondering if what he's talking about there, he's talking about Revelation 16, yeah, 16, 16, and he said he gathered them together to the place called Hebrew again.

Okay. And you'll see that also in Gog and Magog at the end. But then I went back to Revelations 11, 11. And this is the two witnesses, which they're not two witnesses, I hope, I hope you and I share that same agreement on that. But it says, And after three days and a half, the spirit of life entered into them, and they stood upon their feet. And great fear fell upon them that saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying, Come up hither. See, that's the rapture to me. And they ascended up into heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Am I looking at that correctly? I wouldn't call, I mean, it might be, but I wouldn't call those two the rapture event, which is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 4, 16, and following, and, you know, we who are alive and remain shall be cut up to get amid the air. You know, a thought I've never put together is maybe that is simultaneous with the rapture, because I believe we're going through it all. Maybe that's a possibility to see and just entertain that idea. But I don't think so.

But that's a thought. But here's something to think about, too, because I'm with you on this, on Matthew 13, 30. First, Gather up the tares and bind them.

Gather the wheat into the barn. The tares are the evil. And that's what Jesus says in Matthew 13, 40, when he interprets it through following. But also what's interesting is it says, Two men are in the field.

One is taken, one is left. Well, that's the context of the wicked being taken, not the good. And that's very easily understood when we go to Matthew 24, 37, I think it is, and Luke 17, 26, or is it reversed? Matthew 27, let me just check. Matthew 24. Let's see. There we go.

37. The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. They were eating, they were drinking. Two men will be in the field when it's taken, one is left. Well, the ones who are taken are the wicked. You can verify that by going to Matthew 17, 26, when it talks about, I mean, Luke 17, 26, when it talks about the wicked. Two are taken, one is the wicked who are taken.

And where are they taken? They're taken to a place of judgment, where the body is the vultures gathered. That's what Jesus says at the end of Luke 17. Well, since you went to Revelation 16, 16, how about this for fun? Now, one's taken, one is left.

One taken, one is left, right? Every other one, like a hopping. I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, the mouth of the beast, or the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. And the spirits of demons performing signs, they gathered them for Armageddon. Could it be that there's an allusion to that?

Frogs hop, and one's taken, one's left? I don't know. But it's just fun. It's just fun to raise the question.

Oh, I agree. Have you ever, while we're talking about this, see, I think that the two witnesses are the people of God. But have you ever compared Revelation 11, starting, say, in verse 11, and compared that to Ezekiel 37, starting in verse 10 through 14?

They're almost identical. Have you ever done that? No, I haven't. I'll get that, check it out. Trust me, I want you to do that, because it may surprise you, it almost word for word, it says they stood upon their feet, they come up out of the graves, the spirit entered into them. It's almost identical to Revelation 11. Ezekiel what? Ezekiel 37, starting in verse 10, and go through 14. It talks about coming up out of the graves. And Revelation 11. I know a lot of people teach that as the, beg your pardon? And Revelation 11, right, the two witnesses. Revelation 11, starting in, yeah, I mean, when I found that, I've never heard anybody talk about it, but I thought, my gosh, it's almost saying exactly the same thing.

Well, I'll take a look. I'm always learning, and you never know what you're going to find in, well, you never, that's right. Every time I leave, I find something new. But I'll share so much with you, and I love talking to you. Well, praise God, Matt. Good stuff.

I'm going to check it out, okay? You're a blessing. Thank you, Matt. All right, well, God bless, brother.

God bless. All right, that was Mark from North Carolina. Let's get over to Ryan from Utah. Hey, Ryan, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, how you doing?

Just a continuation call from yesterday to finish up, or I guess, well, probably won't finish up. But we were talking a little bit, my question initially was kind of asking you, for people who profess to follow truth and to be happy to read and, I guess, read multiple or any books by Christian authors or non-Christian authors, whatever, that are written about Jesus Christ, why is it then that people will just completely throw out the Book of Mormon? Because ultimately, I was thinking about it, it comes down to the fact that because of a fundamental difference of opinion with a very important doctrine, you're not willing to even, it's like you're reading the Book of Mormon from the beginning, being decided that it's wrong. Do you have a question?

Yeah, my question is why? Why are you so decided beforehand that the Book of Mormon is still wrong? And where do you get your authority from? Because, hold on one at a time, the Book of Mormon is false. The Book of Mormon is false because Joseph Smith was a false prophet. I disagree. He taught a false god.

Let me finish, I'll let you ask yourself. I disagree. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is the guy taught there's many, many gods and you can become a god. That doesn't take away the fact that god will only be my god.

Hey, hey, hey, look, I understand what you mean, but you've got to understand something. The Bible says god doesn't even know of any other gods, there will be no god formed after him, he doesn't even know of any other gods. And you say, Mormonism says yes, there are other gods. So it contradicts this question. Well, that's your interpretation. Well, that's your interpretation. I just quoted it to you. I just quoted it. Here, you just, you just hold on a sec.

I'll bet you if you open up the scripture. Hold on, hold on. Well, Matt, you like to move, you like to make a point and then move on before. Okay, I have to keep him quiet because he's one of those kind of guys who doesn't listen.

So this is what I did. I quoted him scripture before me, there was no god formed, there'll be none after me. That's Isaiah 4310. There's no god formed before, there'll be none after. He said, that's your interpretation. I didn't, I just quoted it, which means he understood it and rejected it. He rejected the word of God, flat out.

This is the point I wanted to make, but he's given over to the spirit of Mormonism, doesn't understand the truth. Be right back, maybe he'll still be on the air afterwards. Let's see it for the break. We'll be right back, folks. Give me a call for the open lines, 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Just want to let you guys know out there in radio land, if you're checking out the website, karm.org, we're doing an experiment. All articles on the site are now open for comments. So if you want to get in there and comment, you can do that.

And we're going to be checking through how it's going to be working, and we might leave it like that, so people can comment. All right, let's get back to Ryan. Ryan, are you still there? Okay.

Yeah, I'm still here. So that picture was Isaiah 4310. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

Sorry. Ryan, I quoted you a verse, I didn't interpret it, and you rejected it. I said, God says before me there was no good for him, there'll be none after me. That's what God says, Isaiah 4310. Do you accept that, or do you reject that verse?

Well, I need to look at a King James version set of scriptures and see if you haven't... A lot of times what happens in Christianity is... I'll read the King James. I'll read the King James.

I'll read the King James. Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Okay. Fair enough. Why would there be a God formed that would replace God?

You're absolutely right. It doesn't say replace God. That's one thing that I wanted to clarify is that... Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, it doesn't say replace God. You change the word of God and make it fit. It says there was no God formed... Well, so do you, sir.

Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Okay. So... Right.

I totally support that. But you have to open up to the greater understanding... The greater understanding. The greater understanding that a lot of scripture is speaking about things specifically to that chapter. I mean, I haven't read the whole chapter or even that specific thing they're trying to teach in that moment. Well, let me ask you this.

Let me ask you this. This is out of the King James, okay? Now, Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father. You want to know why we don't believe the Book of Mormon?

Because we don't trust Joseph Smith. Okay? Well, you never knew him. You don't care to.

You can read. If you want, if you want, Ryan, you can go to Carm and look up Mormonism Unveiled, written in 1834. Oh, I have, yeah. And it is eyewitness accounts of people who knew Joseph Smith, sworn before judges and magistrates, and they knew him to be a con artist. Now, let's go to the... Every single situation has been completely debunked. No, it hasn't.

That's what it says. So you're trusting in the arm of flesh... Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. ...for people that you don't know... Hey, hey, hey, get your own radio show. Get your own radio show.

Get your own radio show. Maybe I will. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question.

Okay. This is out of King James, 1 Timothy 6, 15 and 16. Which in his time he shall shew, who is the blessed and only potent, take the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto whom no man hath seen nor can see to him beyond her power everlasting. Amen. Now that's talking about, obviously, God the Father, because they've seen Jesus.

Right. So this says that God the Father, stop talking of him, which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen nor can see. Did Joseph Smith see the Father? Did Stephen see the Father and Jesus standing on the right hand of God? Yes, he did. Hey, Ryan, Ryan, I asked you a specific question, didn't answer it, but incidentally it says Stephen had a vision of the glory of God.

It didn't say he saw God with the glory of. Okay. That's what it says. That's your interpretation. I'm going to ask you a question.

You both know what it means. I'm going to ask you a question. Did Joseph Smith see the Father when the Bible says the Father can't be seen? Absolutely, he saw him. Okay.

He conversed with them, both individual beings. Ryan, you deny the word of God. And the reason you deny the word of God. John, does it work?

Because I'm driving. No man hath seen the Father. Jesus says in John 6.36. Three or four chapters later says, and lest he be a man of God. It doesn't say that.

Ryan, you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. You don't know how to look at scripture. Well, I'm driving. You don't know. The only time I can, the only time I can call you is when I'm driving. So I'm trying to multitask. And so not, not only that, but I'm just not as polished of an orator as you are.

Well, you need to study the word of God. Do you live out in Salt Lake City area? I do, sir.

I do. Do you live in Salt Lake City area? Um, yeah, I live here for about five years. Are you near Sandy, Utah? Yes, I am. I work in Sandy, yeah.

Oh, good. I have good friends in Sandy. Eric Johnson and Bill McKeever, they are world-class experts on Mormonism. They would be glad to have lunch with you and discussed, uh, all kinds of stuff. I think one of them already contacted me for my last call that I had, but ultimately I do appreciate the work, the effort you try to have.

I don't like listening to your radio station, your show, because it's, uh, makes me think. And every time I go back to my scriptures, I'm always. Ryan, I've got a question for you. I'm always supported in my own faith every single time.

I've got a question for you. So does Jesus have all authority in heaven and earth? Of course he does. Does he forgive sins? Of course he does. Can you pray to Jesus?

Sure. You've asked me this before. Can you pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins? I have multiple times, almost on maybe a daily basis.

I try to. You pray to Jesus, not to God, not God, the father, not the holy spirit, but to Jesus. You prayed to him? Uh, I guess, uh, you know, personally, I don't know if it matters.

I would say yes, I definitely have. Um, I usually address heavenly father first, just like Jesus did when he taught us to pray. I asked you something here. Okay. I asked you if you pray to Christ and if you go to Jesus to forgive you, Jesus is the one who opens the mind to understand scripture. Okay.

He's the one who does that. Luke 24. So you need to trust in Christ. The book of Mormon is not true. It's been changed thousands and thousands of times. It's been altered. Still is the Bible. No, it hasn't. Yeah, it still is the Bible. No, it hasn't. You have no idea.

So it has, so every translation, so King James had a perfect translation from language to language, huh? Look, you don't understand the differences. You don't understand the disparity. Now, Joseph Smith said he saw God, the father, and he said that, um, uh, that God gave him these golden plates that he carried that would have weighed way too much for him to carry. And he was chased by people, ran miles, three miles with a limp, and he was able to outrun people. He's supposed to be able to carry all this stuff. He couldn't have done that.

He could not have done that. The, all of these, all of, I totally respect that you're trying to look deeper into it as have I. And when you look at the facts that from church history or just history itself, it's, I feel supported. So you feel, why do you believe Joseph Smith is true? Well, because God himself is at a pattern throughout all of the six plus thousand years of this earth of calling prophets. And I understand that the Bible says the end of the prophet, the Bible says the law and the prophets were until John, John, the Baptist, no more of those kinds of prophets. That's what Jesus said. You have to reject Christ's words yet again in order to hold on to Joseph Smith. So that's not a good reason. He claimed to be a prophet. Okay.

So give me another reason. He also claimed that there would be a falling away where ravenous wolves would come in, sparing not the flock. I mean, you mean what the Bible says, so he just quoted scripture and that's what that means. So he, he said what this Bible already says, okay, that doesn't work because he just copied scripture. Give me something. No, no, I'm just, that was me. That was me just going off on my memory, um, from the new Testament, basically referring to the falling away of the original and any type of continuation of authority.

Um, I mean, we, we both know the world itself all through the dark ages had a heck of a lot of difficult times. Give me another one. What's another one. Okay. Two out of two have failed.

Give me a third one. What do you mean? Why do you believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Why do you believe it? When he contradicts scripture, when he says there's multiple gods, the Bible says there's only one. You can become gods. The Bible says you can't. He said he saw the father. The Bible says you can't. So why do you trust that he's true?

Give me the reason. Okay. You said he's a prophet, but the Bible says no more prophets. So ultimately I believe that Joseph Smith was in fact a true prophet and that there have been continued prophets because through all of my studies of the Bible, what's that? Even though Jesus has a lot of prophets were until John, the old Testament law and the prophets, that's the whole completion of the old Testament. That was until John, the prophets were in the Testament. There's no more prophets. Because the savior, the savior fulfilled that law and after the apostles, obviously they were all killed. There was a time of darkness, as you well know.

No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't say as you well know, you don't know what I know or believe. So it's not a good tactic for you. Give me a third reason. The next call or give me a third reason why you believe Joseph Smith was true. Well, ultimately you're probably getting me to try to testify because of my feelings or beliefs.

I don't know what you're going to do. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. I have personally had experiences that I cannot explain otherwise that I believe came from God that totally these things were true. Not a vision. I'll tell you what. What's that? I'll tell you what.

Okay. Not that my testimony is better than yours, but I had a testimony at 17 years old, the very presence of the Holy Spirit came upon me with such incredible power that all I could do was throw my face and my body to the ground and moan out in agonizing, weeping tears of repentance in the presence of incredible holiness. And then the Lord Jesus was next to me. Couldn't see him or couldn't touch him. I was aware of his presence. I remember him looking at me. I remember his concern for me. I remember the presence and the incredible power of his looking and staring and exalting it just in me, upon me, through me. I remember it. I'm 64.

That happened on 17. I've calmed down. Now that testimony right there, I'm not making it up and I'm not even telling you how intense it was because it was far more intense than the day that carried the body of my son to the grave and the weeping and the agony that I went through in that presence of incredible holiness before I was forgiven. My sin was made very clear and the presence of Jesus and his great forgiveness moved in and upon me when I was saved. Now that testimony left me before Mormons. And I'll tell you, because I've met, I've encountered, I know that true living Jesus and I know for a fact that Joseph Smith, who said God is in the still small voice and all these affidavits and all these indictments and all the devil, all the corruption, you false swears, all hell boil over your burning mountains, roll down your lava at last. For I will come out on top at last.

I have more to both than ever any man had. I've done more to keep a church together since the days of Adam, neither John, Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did such a work as I. I mean, that's who he said has history of the church volume six, page 408, 409. That's what he said.

This is who you're following. And when I learned about Joseph Smith, that quote, because of my encounter by Lord, the Savior, Jesus, because of the testimony I'd had who he really was. When I read that quote, that started me, that very quote started me studying all apologetics 41 years ago.

41 years. Well, listen, I would never, I would never try to downplay all your testimony. That sounds amazing. Amazing. My testimony. I'm glad for you. My testimony contradicts yours and is far more powerful.

Okay. You have some feeling about Joseph Smith. You must be right.

And I must be wrong. You have a false prophet. He said he saw God the father. When the Bible says you can't, it says you become God's. The Bible says you can't. You don't need secret handshakes to become a God.

You don't need a new name and secret handshakes in a temple that you pay money to get into. And why is it? The bottom line is you don't understand these things. Your eyes have been glazed over. Your eyes have been glazed.

The judgment of God is on you because you believe the lie, Joseph Smith. Look, call back tomorrow. We're out of time, brother. Okay. Call back.

And Kelton from Iowa and Adrian from North Carolina and Hedda Hadessa from Canada. Call back tomorrow. God bless everybody. We'll see you. Bye.