Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carn.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Match Lick. Or this is the Matchlick Live. Today's date is June 18th, 2025. If you want, you can give me a call.

All you have to do is dial 877-207. Two two seven six. I released an article today, and you guys can check it out on the homepage. Um. There we go, scrolling through some stuff.

And the article Is did either the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church give us the Bible? And the reason I wrote that is because what I do is I like to go out there and interact with the actual people on the actual topics. And then when I start hearing the same thing, I want to address it.

So what I've written is a commonly held position by those two churches. And so what I did was I addressed it in two ways: logical problems and biblical problems of their statement. And you can check it out. And I have a summary at the end of the article, which is at the homepage. On the homepage, you can just go there.

And it's, did either the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church give us the Bible? And the answer is no, it did not. And I can go through all kinds of stuff to support that, but no big deal. You know, there it is.

So, hey, look, if you want to give me a call, like I said, 877-8777. two zero seven. 2276. You can also email me. The number is, or the email, excuse me, is info at carm.org.

Info at C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. Put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question, and we can get to them. We often do. And so let's do this now. Let's get on the air with Joseph from Minnesota.

Joseph, welcome. You're on the air. Uh hi, Matt. Hi, how you doing, man? I'm actually very nervous.

This is my first time doing anything like this. Yeah.

Well, don't worry about it. You're just talking to me in the phone. It's no big deal. Yeah.

So we got that.

So, um Yeah, I I'm just Like since you've been um More so like a Writing about like the Eastern Orthodox right. Uh-huh. I myself have also been trying to look more into that as well. And um, you know, I keep like coming to like a dead end. At to like where the Eastern Orthodox claims to be the original church to have.

founded the Bible. And to go against the Eastern Orthodox would be to be going against The church in this was within the Bible. That's what they say. But it's a f it's a false church. The East Orthodox is a false church.

Yeah.

I can show you why go ahead. I can show you why, but it's okay, but go ahead. Right. And then um Like Oh, what I like to do is I kinda like to um debate with myself sometimes. I'm a big critical thinker and I like think of like the different um like positions as well.

Good. And so, um You know, Through that lens, right, through that presupposition of the of the Orthodox Church being the first church. Um and things like that. Um It would seem like they're framing it almost as like the Protestant. Um view is almost like a Christian atheist type of view in that um in that we can't we as Protestants cannot uh ascertained uh what the Bible actually says.

Yeah, they say that. Yeah, they do routinely do that. It's a faulty argument. You see, what they'll say is: as Protestants, we can't rightly understand the Bible. But we don't have the true church.

Right. That's what they say. And I said, okay. I said, could we test that? And this always happens like this.

I said, let's go to John 11:35. John 11.35 it says Jesus wept. And I said, I'm going to interpret it now. I say, I believe that what it means is Dead Jesus He was crying, he he wept.

So am I right or my wrong? They don't want to answer the question. If they say I'm wrong, well, that's stupid. If they say I'm right, that I'm understanding the the Bible without their authority. I'm getting it right.

It's very simple. And so, that's one point. The other point here, let me show you something.

Alright. Let's look at what Scripture says. Acts 17:11.

Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Wait a minute.

So Paul's at Berea. Paul and Silas, And they're teaching in the synagogue, and what happens? their noble-minded peop Bereans, they examined the scripture to see what Paul and Silas were saying was true. Wait a minute.

Well, that's not right, because we need an authority over us, the Church, to tell us what the Bible means. Because we can't understand it on our own, and neither can the Jews, and neither can anybody else. But for some strange reason, Luke wrote, when he wrote Acts, That they were examining the scriptures daily. They were checking it out. The implication is they were able to understand God's Word.

Here's another verse, okay? This is Romans 14.

Now, this is particularly verse 5. The context. is about eating and worship days. He says, One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

No, what it should say is each person must be convinced of what the church tells them to believe and what the scriptures mean. Because they can't have the authority to interpret the Scripture without the church. That's what they're saying. That's what the East Orthodox are saying. But yet it says each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

How is that possible? If we can't understand God's Word. And there's a third thing. What the EOs like to say, they're an arrogant, prideful group of people.

Okay, they are. They're arrogant or prideful. What they want to say is that we're not capable of understanding, and that God is not capable, apparently, of just giving his word to people. You know, we have to have a church. He spoke to Moses, he spoke to Nehem uh to Isaiah.

It spoke uh to the to the prophets in the Old Testament. There was no authority that any group of people had to have in order to understand what God was saying. I asked the EO, what, God's not capable of actually communicating to us? in telling us what we need to know. We have to have a church tell us?

Where'd you get this? You see? Their stuff falls apart. It falls apart when you just start thinking about it.

Okay. Huh. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yeah, okay. No, yeah, that's really nice to know. Um Especially 'cause, um Me personally, I'm only twenty right now. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so like Um I think like I think like a lot of like things that just seem To make sense, get me a lot because I'm so like young and naive. Um. I'm also Uh a Reformed Calvinist uh myself. Because um Like When I read the scriptures, that's just what I see. God chose us.

He chose us, he predestined us before the foundation of the world. We just see it in the Bible, you know? That's what it says.

So, you know. Yeah, yes, it's what it's saying. Yeah.

That's right, that's what it says. You're just here. I'm going to show you something now. This is really simple, okay?

So you're reformed.

Okay, now watch this, okay? I'm going to make a statement. I'm going to show you something. You and I are reformed. We believe in the simplicity.

of the gospel message, the simplicity of Scripture. It's simple. Check this out. John T. 10, 11.

Jesus says, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays his life down for the sheep. Who does Jesus lay his life down for? The sheep. That's simple.

But you know what they'll say? He lays his life down, but it's for everybody who would believe, but is conditioned upon their belief because the sacrifice of the cross only becomes effective through the authority of their church system. The simplicity of the Reformed faith. Yeah.

God chose us, He elected us. That's Ephesians 1, that's what it says. But what they'll say is he chooses us based upon his foreseen knowledge of what we will do in our libertarian free will. And he elects us based upon what he knows we will do eternally. Yeah.

Yeah, another verse that I also come across is Revelation seventeen: fourteen. Which is um They that are with uh The king of kings and lords of lords are called and chosen and faithful. And uh, you know, that Uh the preservation of of the saints too. Yeah, it does. And you can also go to 2 Thessalonians 2.13.

He chose us in Him from the beginning for salvation. That's what he says. Yeah, I know yeah, I know all these different verses. Yeah, it's it's It's Like like it just makes sense, you know? Like it just fits.

The whole picture just fits. It does. And theirs fits too. But see, our picture is like a photo of the scriptures. Theirs is more like abstract painting from Picasso.

It fits, but you got to look at it. Sideways, upside down, backwards. Oh, now we can see what you mean when you get all this convoluted crud that they throw into it. I debate them frequently. I debate EO people frequently.

In fact, before the show, I was walking around the block to wake myself up for the radio show, and I get online and I have my phone and I headset and I talk. And I said Uh I said the East Orthodox Priesthood is not biblical. I said, I've challenged EO and RC and Roman Catholics to show me from the New Testament economy, the New Testament covenant, after the death of Christ is when the new covenant's in. Show me. the priesthood that you guys practice in your church that you say is the proper authentic church.

Yet it's not taught your practices are not taught in the New Testament. And it's critical. Your priesthood, you have to have the authority of Christ through the apostles handed down so that you can give the Eucharist by which your sins can be forgiven and that your priest can absolve you. Show me that in the New Testament. And it is not there.

At all. They don't have a priesthood. Yeah.

That's right. Right, 'cause there's no need. Jesus is the high priest. Hey. What are you what are you being so simple for?

You're just believing what it says? Wow, that's different. Jesus is our high priest.

Next. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah, yeah. But um um Another thing that I've heard from them is that Um If Jesus bore a sin or or or or kind of like had the sins of the elect in him, then What that means, right? When she When the Father unleashes his wrath on Jesus at the cross, right? then that means that Trinitarian no then that means that a Calvinist is then anti-Trinitarianism because it then separates the Son from the Father.

That's stupid. That that is just You don't Sometimes when I talk to people and they say things like that, I go, I go, where'd you get this? You obviously don't understand the penal substitutionary atonement theory because they hold to what's called Christus Victor with a combination. of recapitulation. And and so I can I can explain all those, but I said, where do you get this?

This is you're not representing our position. We teach that the word became flesh, and the word and the flesh each have attributes. That's what I'll do. I'll tell them: I'll say, Look, let me give you a Bible lesson here. Oh, we're out of time for this break.

Hold on. And I'll come back and I'll tell you what I say to them about this issue on the Trinity and stuff like that.

Okay, be right back, folks. Please stay tuned. And we're back with Joseph from Minnesota in a little bit. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. Joseph from Minnesota. You still there?

Mm-hmm.

Alright, a little confession here. I got a little bit sidetracked by trying to look at some equipment and some audio stuff here. During the break, so I kind of forgot the train of thought I was on.

So let's take one step back and we'll go forward.

So, what was your last question?

Okay, right.

So uh frequently what what What the EO? Yeah.

Jesus bearing our sins, right, at the cross. Is that Sin separates Jesus from the Father and thus Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism is then um Whoa. then that would make our position a non-Trinitarianism. You know, like Okay, that can make sense why you're not going to be able to do that.

Yeah, yeah. So but that they that means they don't understand the penal substitutionary atonement.

So what I have to do is teach them. I say, Look, folks, let me explain the basics of of Christian faith so you can understand why you're making a mistake. I don't like it when I talk to them like that, but you know, I've been doing this for 45 years and I say, look, you just don't understand the issue. I've got to teach it to you. I've got to teach you what the truth is.

I tell them, in divine simplicity, the Trinity is one being, one essence, and it cannot be divided and cannot be broken. The Word, which we understand, became flesh. John 1:1, verse 14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8.

So the Word became flesh, and this is called the hypostatic union because it means that Jesus has two distinct natures.

Now, What's really important for them and you and everybody to understand is that there's a doctrine called the communication of the properties. The Latin phrase is communicatio idiomatum. And what it means is that the two natures Inside of the one person of Jesus, because Jesus is one person. But Jesus has a divine nature and a human nature.

So, the attributes, properties, characteristics of the divine nature, the attributes, properties, characteristics, whatever we call it, of the human nature are ascribed. to the one person So, the one person would say, I will be with you always, even to the end of the earth. That's claiming divine attribution. That one person, Jesus, says, I am thirsty. He's claiming the attributes of humanity.

the one person has attributes of divinity and humanity ascribed to him. The one person died on the cross, and the the sins were borne by Jesus in his body on the cross, first Peter two twenty four. He became sin, Second Corinthians five twenty one.

So we say that the second person of the Trinity who became flesh was in union, and still is, in union with the human nature. This union began 2,000 years ago. We call him Jesus. Jesus is the one who bore our sins. Not the Father, not the Holy Spirit, but Jesus, the incarnate state that the Word is in, has been in since then, and forever will be.

So, when they say that sin causes a separation, then they have a problem because you'd say that's not our position, that the Trinity is broken. We do not teach the Trinity is broken. We teach that the incarnate Son. bore the sin as the Bible says he did. And in Isaiah 53, 4-6, he suffered the wrath of God, as the Bible says he did.

So I say, there is no breaking of the Trinity. in it because that would be a heresy. It's not the penal substitutionary atonement theory that there was a. Divestiture of the or breaking of the nature of the divine.

Furthermore, we do not understand what it means that Jesus experienced whatever it was he experienced when he said, My Father, why have you forsaken me? We don't know what that means.

Now here's another point of logic. Is that they can say that his sins separate him from God. Where does it say that in the Bible?

Now, Isaiah 59:2 says, Your sins separate you from God. But that's speaking to the people. But Jesus is God in flesh, and by logical necessity, the divine nature cannot be separated from the Trinitarian essence.

So it's not possible. It's just not possible. And we know that. We say we don't understand and no one does. What it means when Jesus says, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

which is quoting Psalm 22, verse 1.

So we're not saying that the Trinity was broken. We're not saying that sin separated him. We don't see that in the scripture. That's something they're claiming that we say, but that's not the position.

So I tell them, you need to understand two things: biblical theology and what our position actually is. Because you're not representing us properly, okay?

Okay. Okay. Um Man, I forget like um what I was gonna say too sometimes. You know, Uh things like that happen, you know, just just you just forget your train of thought. But um Yeah.

So Okay. I battle these kinds of issues. regularly with people. And so just feel free to call me and write down the more particular question. I can write an article on it.

Like right now, I've just now put it in for my notes. Jesus bore our sins, therefore he separated from the Father. That's the argument they're giving. And I'll show why that's a logical problem.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Alright, well. Thank you, Matt. Yeah.

I'll I'll I'll uh I'll definitely call Again. Sure. Fuck.

Okay now let me tell you something. The East Orthodox Church. is a non-Christian false religion. And the reason is because It teaches a false gospel, which I can prove by reading their their documents. and it teaches a false priesthood.

and it promotes idolatry. This is the case. I've written articles on them, and you can go check them out. But they are it is the case that it's a false Um Church. Not a true Christian church.

Don't be duped. by their false logic. All right. All right. Yeah.

Um okay.

Now I do remember what I was gonna uh uh tell you. Um I've been watching a lot of your videos and reading a lot of your articles over the past. Um, I think like seven months. And, um, you know, you you you've really helped me a lot, especially with like the atheists. You know, um the debate you had with like Mad De La Hante.

Yeah.

It's gravy. Yeah.

Your brain made you say that. Yeah, he he got cornered. Yeah, it was his own fault. It was his own fault. Yeah.

Then he got mad about it. Then he did a video how unfair I was. And how I threw the rule book out and everything, but no, he just got his rear handed to him. Anyway, but go ahead. Right, right.

But yeah I mean, yeah, that's just the logical necessity of his position: is that, well, your brain may just say that, because all we are is chemicals, right?

So,. That's right. That's a short time to react. No. And and I've really uh helped share you with um all my friends and things like that.

Right. Like, you know, I I I just see like these like um Like these quotes on the internet saying, oh, Carm is a breeding ground for Calvinists and it's a bad website. I'm like, hold on. Hey, hold on, Joseph. I want to hear that.

There's a break. I got to hear that. You're making me laugh.

Okay?

So, I want to hear that when you get back. Hold on. Hey, Sorry, the cough. Be right back after these. I'm already loving this.

This is great. I love it when I get stuff like that. We'll be right back. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Well, Robert, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Joseph from Minnesota. All right, Joseph. What are they saying?

I got to hear this. I love this stuff.

Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So, um So people say that that carm is a breeding ground For Calvinists. And the moment they see the word Calvinist, they just They sign off and they don't Yeah. They delete their account immediately. The moment they see Calvinism, Then Are you supporting Calvinism? Carm is not a Calvinist.

It's not a Calvinist website. I just I am a Calvinist, but we have non-Calvinists who work with us.

So Yeah, that's what they say. It this is like I don't see that.

Okay. You know, like, like, I see it as a genuinely educational website. That helps people. You know? Yeah.

Yes, cousin. Just 'cause the author of the site is a is it. I think that's what's called the genetic fallacy, right? Exactly correct. That's right.

The source of the information is bad, therefore the information is bad. That's the genetic fallacy.

So I'm reformed in my theology. I wrote this stuff, so therefore what I wrote can't be true. Yeah.

It's a fallacy of logic. It just shows you how bad their thinking is. What they're doing is looking for an excuse. Just to not engage with the arguments. In fact, in my chat rooms, when I go in, I go to my website and read the article on such and such.

No, we're not going to your website. I say, well, why not? I've written the article. There's the information, there's all the stuff. You can check it out.

We're not going there, it's a bad site.

Well, it teaches the Trinity. In the deity of Christ, hypostatic union, communication of the properties, inseparable operations, are those also false? You don't And then I say to them, I actually do this: I say, you know, I get tired of just shooting fish on a barrel. This is too easy. Come on, guys.

You're not thinking. Come on. You can do better.

Okay, don't commit the genetic fallacy. You need to go in and say, Matt wrote articles that are false, and this is why. Why is it people don't do that? Because they're biblical. That's what I say to them.

Is that why? Is that why you guys haven't written any refutations of the articles?

So Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't see any uh refutations on about your site. That's right. There have been a few people, I will just tell you over the years, who have written reputations, a few articles. When I find them, I say, do you mind if I copy your article? and reproduce it on my site and respond to it.

And they always say yes, go ahead. and I do and I destroy their arguments as best I can. Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah. Um so yeah, I I I've also been um Like, not that like you have to be a Calvinist in order to receive Uh That's right, you don't Like I've shared um reform theology with my uh friends and my family and they They agree with Philip. They agree with this because it It is biblically supported. You don't have to do that.

Okay. In 1953, it says that he will justify the many. Everyone in the world, the many. That's right. And in Hebrew, I tell you what, I'll tell you what.

We got another caller waiting. I'll tell you what, I want you to do something. I want you to call me or email me. and asked for my Calvinist notes. And I'll send them to you.

Okay. Okay. They are long. There's a lot of stuff there. And um And let's see how long it's like 140 pages or something like that.

I'll send them to you, okay. Just don't send them out.

Okay. Um yeah, yeah. Just info at email. Info at chrom.org. Yeah.

Ad corn Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's 119 pages. That's what how that's how long.

Sorry. 8f by 11 in Word. I've given them out to people occasionally and they love them. And it's a work in process.

So you'll see triple X's. That's just my way of saying I need to finish that section or that issue. But you'll see. There's a lot. I work on a lot of things, so I got a lot of stuff to do.

Anyway, go ahead.

Okay. Yeah.

Um. You know what's the longest book in the uh Bible? Long's book. Uh there's a joke in there someplace. Um Well, it's Psalms, but what's the joke?

Okay, go ahead. What's the longest time in the Bible? Yeah, Psalms 19. You're. The amount of pages you have is nineteen.

Yes, sir. The one A long list of notes. Yeah, that's oh, I get it. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

And what's interesting about it, well, I can tell you stuff. But anyway, we've got to go. But yeah, send me the email, okay, buddy? All right?

So you want those notes. I got it. And I'll help you out. I'll give you stuff. Oh, you're going to love them.

You're going to love those notes. You're going to go, yeah.

Okay. Uh I think All right, buddy. God bless, man. God bless. Yeah.

All right. That was Joseph from Minnesota. I like talking to guys like that. He's all right. Hey folks, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276.

Let's get to this infrequent caller. Jermaine from the People's Republic of California. Go ahead, buddy. Hey, man. Hey, well, yeah, I was enjoying that call.

Hold on, man. Yeah.

A lot of insights, but Yeah. Actually it it kind of connects to where I wanted to talk about.

So Acts chapter 2 verse 38. I hear a lot of people bring that up as as an action you have to do as far as repent and be baptized. And I see a lot of street preachers and other folks out there in your telling people to repent, which I agree people need to repent, but Is it necessary for salvation? Because that seems to go counter to what much of the New Testament is actually preaching as far as. grace and God's sovereignty.

Yeah.

And so one of the things I I asked them To for clarification, I say Is it the repentance the that gets you saved. And sometimes people say yes. And I said, no, let's look at this. Repentance is compliance with the law.

So if you are lying and the Bible says do not lie and you stop lying, then you are complying with the law. Are you saying that by your complying with the law in your repentance, that's how you get saved? If they say yes, then I need to teach them the gospel. If they say, oh no, that's not what I mean. You know, we got to believe, but we also got to stop our sins and repent.

And you go, True, you do. But you see what I'm doing? I'm trying to see what. what they're getting to. Yeah.

Makes sense. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Um, do you think what's going on is a lot of people tend to conflate. Be repentance and being baptized in the name of Jesus versus. It seems like they're kind of adding to what you need to do to be saved and Maybe kind of changing the gospel.

And, you know, I've seen a lot of people who have genuine hearts, but. there I think some people just come up in that system and that's just that they were taught to do so. Right. And so that's why I asked the questions. I asked the diagnostic questions.

Because someone might say something that's heretical, but it's not what they mean to say, because they're not. astutely familiar with some of the phraseology and implications of certain terms. And so, you know, I don't accuse them, I just say, hey, well, what do you mean by that? And then I'll tell, if they say, yeah, you have to repent in order to be saved, I say, so does your repentance, your stopping your sin, is that what gets you saved? And I've had people say, well, yes.

And I say, well, then. Uh isn't that then compliance with the law? And then they start thinking about it and they go, you see. If we could get saved by compliance with the law, then Jesus died needlessly. Galatians two twenty one.

It's not our complying to the law that saves us, but our faith. And I show in the verses, you know, Romans 3.20, 3.28, Romans 4.5, 5.1, Galatians 2.16, verses about justification by faith. And I show them the verses. And I just try and teach 'em. Just try and get them to understand what they're saying and what they're thinking.

And that's what I do with them. But if they insist that repentance is necessary to obtain salvation, and then they mean that it's the compliance of the law, that the Old Testament don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, all these things, that's what gets you saved. Then I tell them, well, that's not. The way of Scripture.

Well then they'll say Acts 238. And then they they misunderstand Act 238. Repent. And each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And there's a lot in here.

And I'll say, repent is a command. You're to do that. You are to repent. You should. You should repent.

And you should be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Now in the name of Jesus Is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because the name of Jesus is the authority by which something is done. And that's Acts 4:7. In what name are you doing these things? And they said, In the name of Jesus, we're doing these things. It means the authority, like stop in the name of the law.

So you're baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. For the forgiveness of your sins.

So the word for the forgiveness of your sins is aes office in namertium. And it's used in Mark 1.5, I think Luke 1.5, and where John the Baptist baptized for the remission of sins. But does that mean then that they got forgiveness by that?

Well, obviously not, because the blood of Christ hadn't been. Sacrificed yet. And I'll get back after the break. I'll tell you some more about this. Please stay tuned, folks.

Be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show.

Let's get back on with Jermaine. You still there, buddy? Oh, yes, sir.

Alright. So, anyway, back to Acts 2:38. There's so much we could teach on it, but um Here's one of the things that really throws a lot of people in it, just so you can have this in your back pocket. It says you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. What is the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The gift of the Holy Spirit is a charismatic gift. If you read the context of Acts 2 and Acts 10, 44 through 4. through uh forty four through And fifty fifty, I think it is. 44 through 48. If you read those, you'll see the gift of the Holy Spirit was the charismatic movement.

That's what's going on in the context. is not salvation. Anyway, I forgot your original question. I'll just give it a lot of info. No, that's great.

Um, just it just is The people that were that are preaching repentance. as a part of Salvation. I I just kind of see people conflating things and I take a lot of them mean well. You know, can't speak for everyone, but a lot of them mean well, but they think that's the message they're supposed to be out there. preaching and I know I got into a debate with her.

a dispensationalist friend of mine and I said repentance is a part of uh uh the Christian life. And he took the other extreme of, as far as I understood it, of like maybe repentance is a necessary At all. And I just don't see that in scripture. I don't know anyone who's been. convicted that hasn't at least struggled with some sin that they were they knew they were not supposed to be involved in.

if you can commit sins without struggle, without conscience, then I I just wonder if you were ever saved.

So you know, we're I just think repentance is it's more of a lifestyle thing. I don't see anybody who can willingly just go back without some crisis of contents. At least there's a struggle there. Right. Yeah, um That's what, like I said earlier, it's just necessary to.

ask questions to see what it is they're saying. And You know, even on the radio, I'm very direct because, you know, it's it's a little entertaining and um. try and get uh just get to the issues quickly and get other callers. People are often surprised Not often, but sometimes surprised that when they meet me and they talk and ask questions, that they thought I'd be a lot more. direct and demanding.

And I say, No, you you're not hearing. uh really everything I'm saying. you know that like this is a good example. That I'll say to people, Well, what do you mean by that? And I'm not condemning them, I'm asking for clarification.

Because I presuppose initially that they may not just understand the issues. And that's okay. Let's work on fixing that and making things better and getting to some good doctrine. And so I asked questions. And I've discovered that, you know, just a better way.

You gather. More uh More flies with honey than a hammer. And I try and teach people what the Word of God.

so that they can hopefully get a clarification. of what their position is compared to scripture. And uh Most of the time I'm finding people not that interested in it. It's really interesting. Most of the time they're not.

They they they have an opinion, that opinion is a truth.

So I have to ask questions a lot of times and and just say, Well, have you thought this through on this particular issue? And uh And you know, sometimes it goes well, but most of the time it doesn't. It's really weird.

So that's what I do, and that's what I think. And I know you're a pretty gentle guy. You could do the same thing. You know, and then the dispys. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but the dispys will often um get anchored in a certain theological presuppositional base.

And it's it takes a logical biblical crowbar sometimes to move them a little bit. And it takes time.

Meanwhile, yeah. Yeah.

All right. Yeah, I think that's good. And and I think if anybody wants an honest, healthy discourse and they want to learn, then yeah, they'll use the method you just described.

So Long year. can't be closed minded to the fact that we might be wrong.

So No, I think uh I think that method is solid. Amen, brother. I totally agree with that. I think it is. All right.

All right, well thank you, man. Have a good day and uh Okay. Lord willing. We'll talk tomorrow. God bless you.

Lord willing. God bless, man. God bless. Well, that's Jermaine from California and I always enjoy his his conversations. You know, just to kind of play off what our last conversation was there, when.

When I'm talking to somebody and they think I'm wrong about something. What I'll often do is just ask them, you know, and I don't assume I'm right, unless I know it and I know the Trinity is true and the deity of Christ, he rose from the dead, and they disagree, I know they're wrong. That that's that's uh That's a gimmick.

Sometimes people will say to me, You know, I disagree with you. I think you don't understand this position. And immediately, As long as it's not one of the essentials, I'll say, okay. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm always open, even after all these years.

Just teach me. Because I'm not infallible. I don't have all the answers. And there are times when people come up and they'll say things like, that's a very good point. I never thought of that.

That's a good point. And I don't mind um being corrected. Honestly, I don't because I have to answer to my Lord. And if he's going to use the the the body of Christ To correct me, that's exactly how it's supposed to be. And I just verify it out of scripture.

And I'm always appreciative of that. I think it's a general idea of how it is that we're supposed to deal with people. is you know a lot of times when I uh when I I deal with them. Uh I always I like to ask questions. And a lot of times they get very defensive.

I will ask if um Well, you understand this position or that doctrine or what these words mean. Or I'll ask, well, what do you mean by this term? What do you mean by that? And I'll often tell them, I'm asking because I want to know what you know, what you think, so that I can interact with what you're you actually mean, because sometimes we might use the same words but have different meanings. And I just I talk to them like that.

And uh for the most part we can have uh good conversations and I'm hoping to continue to have good conversations with people. Which reminds me, if you want to call me up and have a conversation, you can. The number is 877-2072. And if you do not want to call me right now, I can get to some of the questions uh that uh I've got in my queue, which I think I will get to right about now. Let's see.

How about this? Uh Look, it's a big one. That's a long one. I can't get to that one. Two of them in all these long one.

There we go, there's a shorter one.

Okay, Matthew 24, 1 through 3. The disciples came to him and said, Show the buildings, temple. There were not left one stone upon another, So my question is, have you ever considered that the Wailing Wall is the actual western wall of the ancient temple? and it's still standing.

Alright, so let's go look at this. Let's take a look. I've been to Jerusalem and seen those. Those um those fallen stones. It's really interesting.

They're huge too. Jesus came to the temple, is going away when the disciples came at point he says, Do you see these things? Not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.

So the question is he came out from the temple, was going away. What was he looking at? Was was he pointing to? That's the question I would ask. Was he pointing to the temple and saying every stone of the temple will be thrown down?

Because uh Not one will be left upon another, which will be torn down. Because, and I'm just thinking logically, I've been to Israel and we did a tour where you actually go underground and touch the wall. It's the whaling wall, and it goes down. And so. I don't know archaeologically to what extent stones are underneath.

He says, which will be torn down, which implies. that the stones above them. or the stones stacked up from where they could see. And it's worn down.

Now, if the whaling wall is part of the temple, was he then saying all of that? Wailing wall and all the walls, or what? And since we don't know what he was talking about, he could have been looking and pointing to one section and said, These will all be torn down. I don't know. And I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm just saying this is an issue of logic.

And since we don't know exactly what he was referring to, we can't answer the question exactly. That's all I'm saying.

Okay. Alright, let's see. In Genesis 12, God tells Adam, excuse me, Abraham, I will bless those who bless you. Yes, he does. Many use this to say we should stand with Israel today.

I agree, we should. Because of that verse. I'm a little stumped as to how to apply this. It seems this could be used in three ways: all of Abraham's descendants, including the Ishmael and Esau. Hehehehe only apply to those receiving the blessing of the firstborn.

It wouldn't include the other tribes, Abraham only.

Now that's a really good question. And Those who bless you.

Now, generally speaking, in federal headship, Abraham represented the descendants of his people. And generally speaking, the people were understood to be associated with the nation of Israel because they were in that geographical area.

So what we can understand is that it's a basic issue of the location. And I would say, therefore, the nation of Israel. And I would say that we are to bless the nation of Israel. That doesn't mean we have to agree with everything it does. But we overall we should be in support of Israel.

And that's what I believe.

Alright, let's get to another question. I'm listening to your podcast and just heard you say that John the Baptist did no miracles. Is there anything in Scripture that back this up? I thought all prophets worked miracles or gave short-term prophecies to demonstrate that they were, in fact, sent by God. Um.

So I don't know of any miracles. A fact uh I think there's a verse uh I'm trying to remember the verse. To no miracle. I'm not sure if it's there or not. And so.

That's right, that's right, that's right, there is. John 10, 41. John, let me get to it. John 10, 41. I think this is it.

So many came to him and saying, While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true.

So that's a reference to John the Baptist.

So he performed no sign. He didn't do any miracles. That's the verse that basically is said. And all prophets either worked miracles or gave short-term prophecies. I don't know if they all did.

But uh g but But um John the Baptist did say that he is the one, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

So that would be a prophecy. That is a declaration of who he is and what he would be doing.

Okay. Alright, let's see. We've got another time for mu another short one. Let's see. Maybe, maybe not.

Um Okay, well so we don't have time to get into that.

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