S05 Ep12 Are Small Groups a Good Fit For You w/ Guest Ken Klein

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Now here's your hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr. Welcome everyone to Man Talk. We're glad that you are joining us today.

I just have a question for you. Do you find yourself more amped to understand things in a small group, or are you amped to understand things in a larger context, in a larger audience? Well, today we're going to be talking about tabletop discussions in that smaller group.

And today with me we have Pastor Ken Cline, lead pastor of Christ Wesleyan Church, 2400 North South Holden Road in Greensboro. So Ken, it's been a while since we had you on the show. So when we talk about these tabletop conversations, and we're going to be talking about it in two contexts. First one is the process on how to get people to that table to talk. And then on the next show, we're going to talk about how to keep them there, talking to these tabletop conversations. So in your experience as lead pastor at Christ Wesleyan, you have found more now that people are more apt to be engaged in that smaller group.

That's right. It seems like these last few years, even pre-pandemic, there was so much emphasis on what do we have to do with discipleship? What's not working? How do we make it better?

How do we grow it? How do we get everyone engaged in that? And there was just a big push to find out the magic to discipleship in the church. I went to discipleship conferences. Even on man talk, we had some conversations about how do we really get our guys engaged in regular learning and developing.

It just seemed like we were always looking. We were always trying conferences, camps, everything. It just kind of stumbled into it, but I realized in doing one of my reports for my church this last year, I do my annual report. I had ten local church board meetings, and I had so many staff meetings. I had individual staff meetings, and then I had other. In the other category, I had 129 meetings that I had documented. I thought back, what were all those meetings? They were with people in the church, but they were also with fellow pastors, friends, and people that needed to talk, wanted to talk, welcome to talk.

People in front of me, people behind me, people that were young, mentors, best mentors. Can we get together? Can we hang out? In those conversations, I realized some of the deeper things that we were getting to that just kind of evolved in those conversations. Once we peeled away the layers of, how you doing? How's your family?

Are you okay? Some things begin to come from those conversations that really led to some great conversations, which led me to believe, is that something that would work with my own people? To get away from the pew, and to get away from the Sunday school classroom, the cinder block room, to actually, can we just go sit down somewhere and one-on-one, just have a conversation. Some amazing things started coming forth from these table conversations. I realized I was getting deeper with people at those table conversations, whether it be a cup of coffee at a coffee shop, or a lunch, or just meeting up after work. More was being done, more was happening, more transformation was taking place at those tables than I really felt. I think my new slogan has been, more life changes happening today at the table than in the temple. I just thought, not that I found the magic formula of discipleship, but I found that that's my passion, is I just want to pursue the table. I'm asking my congregants the same thing. Would you be willing to engage in conversations with one another, with neighbors, with coworkers, with friends, with family members? Could you just invite them to the table for breakfast, for lunch, for coffee?

Just get together. That's where all this kind of stemmed from over the course of the last two years, probably. Well, and see, the thing about that, being a pastor myself, I found also that when you talk to someone about the conversation of basically anything, of what they're going through or some of the issues that they're having, in today's time, it seems to me perhaps that the pandemic was driving a lot of what you started experiencing and then getting together and having those conversations with people. I think it's those things that they saw on the outside.

I know I certainly experienced it as well. Things on the outside that was media driven, and what is truth versus what's not. Then you have the social media platform. You have all these different things that folks are engaged in, and it's very difficult for them to see what it is that I actually need because I have to filter through so much of the noise in order to get down to the heart of the matter. As a process, how do you view bringing someone to that process apart from some outside experience that they may be engaged in?

I know it's not to over spiritualize it, but a lot like Jesus because I realized that many times in scripture it says while he was reclined at the table more than while he was preaching in the temple. It actually became a pretty natural thing to say, man, you want to get together? Could we get together and just get caught up? I miss you. I haven't seen you in a while.

It was a pretty easy process, the invite. I realized too that like you were saying with the post-pandemic stuff that I think people were longing for, I wish there was someone I could share some stuff with. Maybe they don't even realize that at first, but again, in those conversations, things were beginning to come to the surface that actually surprised me that they would share that with me. Friends, wow, I didn't expect that in my mind.

I didn't really expect that from you. You just seem like everything's going so well, but the invite was pretty simple if it's somebody in the church. Any chance we could just get together and hang out for the purpose of hanging out? I love sometimes to just sit down at a table and hear you. I was shocked at the immediate, yeah, that would be great. I would love that. I found myself saying the same thing when a friend or a fellow pastor called and said, it's been a while. Can we get together and get caught up?

My immediate feeling was, man, I would really like that. I really need that because I was keeping a lot in as I was pushing through a lot of the aftermath of, again, coming off that pandemic where we were a little more isolated, stayed inside a lot more, experienced a lot of things, not just my church, but 35,000 other church pastors and leaders experienced. It's different. We did lose 40% of the people. We did lose youth group, children's ministry, worship team, and a lot of these things like that that I was processing like, what happened?

What do I need to do? Those were some of my own pastoral questions, but I didn't really know who to talk to about those things. It was just neat to get caught up with guys and say, well, I'll tell you something we did. A lot of it was just making the effort to pick up the phone or send the text and say, how busy are you? You got some time. Roy has been a great example of that for me because Roy is very relational, as we know.

He won't let too much time go by before he starts saying, hey man, let's get together. Can you do lunch and stuff? I value that.

It's intentional, more these days than it was before. Now I realize if that's going to be part of my new way, then when I take my little break that's coming up, my little sabbatical, I've asked my team to be very intentional to purposely invite three or four, at least three or four times a week to reach out to somebody they normally haven't had conversations with and invite them to a time of just hanging out. Let's resolve something.

I got an issue. Tell them why you want to meet. You just want to meet and enjoy some time of fellowship. A lot of those conversations and a lot of the exposure that people have had.

Of course, we were in the middle of the presidential elections and stuff going on back then and all that. All these ideals, they just came creeping in because I think it's very difficult for folks to just separate this when you come through the doors of the House of Fellowship. When you walk through there, your mind and heart needs to be on Jesus, but they want to talk about who should I vote for?

Why is this person saying this or why is this person saying this? Then with all of the things that were happening with the unrest that was going on across the nation and all these other things, people wanted answers. I think that's when it was an ideal time for people to just come and say, yes, I want to talk about these, but I don't want to talk about them in a large- Yeah, Sunday school class or group gathering.

Yeah. The reason why I don't want to do that is because I don't want anybody just to say to me, if you're swinging one way or another way with respect to a political party, then I don't want to be around you or I don't want to accept you for this. It can cause even more division sometimes. With regards to the worship service, it's still the hour of power. Some people find significance in that, but I really feel like what you just said, as a lot of people are saying, but I want to talk about some real life things.

As we get into our next segment, what are those things? You can bring the personal, spiritual, bring Jesus into the equation, but invite him to the table first to just have some general conversation. Exactly. If you don't bring him to the table, then I think there's no truth that's injected in the conversation because without the word of God, there is an absolute truth with respect to what we're saying. We know truth in the general sense. General sense, truth is the sun comes up, it goes down.

One plus one is two. When you start talking about absolute truth, which most people don't really want to accept, and just because they don't believe it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not true. That's what the word of God tells us. What if some don't believe? Would they make the word of God of none effect? Let God be true but every man a liar. That I think puts the stamp on the fact that if anyone comes and they really want to understand a lot of things that's going around them, they have to start with the word of God. They have to. Table is a great place to ease into that and to have those discussions.

It's a safe place. When a person talks about a process, and process to me says, okay, you pick up the phone, you invite a person to lunch, you invite them to dinner, or you say, come on, let's catch up with this, that, or the other thing. Then they end up coming, but we don't know what they're coming with obviously until they start talking. That's correct.

Once they start talking, then we can gauge where they are and then where God perhaps want us to be. That's right. I think that process start with, as you stated, picking up the phone, going out, having lunch, but deep within, if the person have a conviction, and Roy and I were talking about this last week, you got to have a conviction. Conviction is good. Condemnation is not.

That's correct. If you're born again, then you're not condemned, but conviction keeps us on the right path. It keeps us in that straight and narrow. A lot of times, folks don't really want to hear the Word sometimes because the Word convicts.

That's what it does. They come to the table, they sit down and talk, and then you say, well, this is what the Word of God says. Oh no, here they go again, talking about the Word of God, talking about the Bible.

Without it, we have nothing to stand on. I can't stand on how God bless you. I can rejoice with you, but I can't stand on what God took you through, what God has taken that church member through, or that mother through, or that choir director through. I can't stand on that, but what I can do is rejoice with you in that.

I can come in line with prayer with you. That's part of that process, saying that when you're coming and when we sit down and we start talking about these things, then that gives me, as well as you, the opportunity to just open up and pour out their heart. You really know if a person is really open and wanting to seek an answer to this overarching question. I see it almost every time I have those conversations. Without fail, we go into deeper things. You mentioned the word process a few times. The process of shifting from the way I used to lead a church to where I am today has changed a lot. I realize that one-third of my working hours in a week is at the table now, and that's a lot.

It is. That's a lot of getting up and going and coming, but that's where the significance seems to be really happening in those deeper conversations. We're safe, but it's okay once you take a few layers away. I like the fact that we're going to have a few how-to questions coming up in our next segment, because I think that's important to what are some leads into allowing a person to feel safe with those deeper things. But I think we all have some questions. We don't have all the answers, but it's great to have a healthy conversation with another person.

A lot of those conversations for me have been like, hmm, yeah, I see what you're saying. That's interesting. I had a conversation two days ago, and I thought I had never heard that before. I had never even looked at that angle before of church planting type of thing. It was just a conversation with a friend of mine, and he asked me a question about some of the churches that we've planted and have they sent anyone back.

I was like, I've never even thought about it before, never seen that angle of it before. I'm learning from those conversations as much as I'm able to give some input and lead as well. I think the biggest thing that a person must understand is the element of trust, especially when they're coming to a leader. I think we're put in that position for, as men, to carry God's word, but not only to carry God's word, but to also say within ourselves that this individual here, God has called them to be put in front of me at this point, at this time, and I have to be open to His Spirit in order to give them some counsel, some instruction, some direction, whatever it needs to be because they're hungering for that. As feeders, and that's what a pastor is, a feeder, feeder of the flock, that we have to understand within ourselves that that's what God wants us to do and then be prepared. It's just like over there, I think it's 1 Peter 3 and 15 where it talks about being open to everyone and being prepared to give an answer to every man for the hope that lieth within you with fear and trembling. You got to do it.

The reason why you have to do it is because God had placed us in that position to say, right here, right now, it's on you. Just lean on me and I'll speak through you and do whatever it takes in order to get that individual that answer and they're hungering. They are, and I am. I realize most of the time that I go out to the car to go home or go back to the church or wherever it is from that table conversation that I really enjoy, most of the time I feel like I get in the car and go, wow, that's usually my first word.

Wow, that was really good. I mean, it's joy. I get a sense of joy that that was a healthy conversation.

So, yeah. And through all of the process of getting that person to the table and then having that understanding about what it means to get an answer, that they're going to be open to the Spirit of God, especially those individuals who have that desire to want to do that. Seems like we all do. We do have that desire to be heard or to have the conversations that we really feel like, you know, I wish we could have that. I think that's the wow factor that I just mentioned is I'm glad we had that talk. I'm glad he heard me. I'm glad he relates to what I'm feeling and I'm glad I could help in some cases. I'm glad I feel like I was able to be a blessing.

I feel like God used me to, you know, lift him up or lift that spirit up. And I think the process is easy. Yeah. Yeah.

It is so much more than people think it is. But keeping them there. That's right. And we're going to touch a little bit on that and on our next show. But yeah, picking up the phone and say, hey, you know, let's go. Let's do this. Let's let's go fishing. That's right. You know, let's throw the Frisbee around. The table takes a lot of shapes.

It does. Yeah. And I think finding that place where the person is and, you know, where God wants to direct them to be is I think the difficult thing because, you know, there was a young man who God was blessing me to counsel. And he was just, he had his lawn mower.

He was going around mowing the lawn. And then all of a sudden, you know, God just led me to have a conversation with him. And so at the time we were doing a series of men books, you know, in the ministry. And I invited him to him and another young man to come in and let's let's talk about the book to the table. And he said, yes, I'm willing to do that. And the thing, he kept coming back.

His friend only came once. Yeah. So, and I think you're going to have that.

And it's not for us to be discouraged. You know, the fact that I invited two guys, one hung in there, one, you know, everywhere Jesus went, he had the same issue. There were some who believed, there were some who didn't. There were some who called him son of God.

There was some who said he was Beelzebub. You know, so, you know, we're always going to have that. We're not going to have that 100% everybody say, amen, praise the Lord, to whatever it is you got to say.

Yep. It's been interesting. I mentioned to you about the stats and the report that I did. And I listed the number of salvation's that I've been part of this year. Only two of those salvation's of nearly 100 this year with myself and my team were in the sanctuary on a Sunday morning. That's why I say more transformation's taking place at the table than the temple. But we saw 101 outside the church. And one of them was at a picnic table behind the church on Hope Tuesday with a homeless woman sitting at that table and asking her some questions that she just, she allowed me in. And it was just interesting to me as I went back to the church that afternoon, I said, another table thing. Why does this table thing keep coming up? So that's why I've gotten so passionate about it.

It seems to be out there in these 101 type of things. That doesn't mean anything's wrong. We're not doing anything. It's just that the church is changing. We've got to learn how to do it like they did it in the early church.

So they continue meeting together in their homes daily. Not just once a week in the hour of power in the temple. We've got to come back to that again.

You know, what you said there was really interesting too because, you know, with the 101. And it's, I had an instance with an individual and I was talking to him about some things and because the ministry is a men's ministry and if Satan can get the men, then he'll break down the household because God have clearly established the position, you know, and he didn't, he did not establish that man, man, listen to me now. I know you're listening. Listen to me now.

You are not a dictator in the home, but God have placed you there to be the head of the household, but you also have to understand that you have a head. And so with that said, if men venture out of their, the zone in which God had put them in with respect to their responsibilities, now they have a tendency to act on their own. You know, because what you're doing is you're leaving the covering. That's what the woman did. She left the covering of the man, you know, and so if we can do the same thing, we can leave our covering, take it away and say, God, you know, I got this thing, you know, just when I need you again, I'll just call on you.

And that's the wrong attitude to take. And as a result, of course, the individual can expect themselves to encounter great difficulty because, you know, they're putting themselves in the place of God. My wife has a gift of discernment. I'm not sure that's been my greatest thing, but she tends to notice people in the church on Sunday and I don't because there's a lot of moving parts we've got to get through today. But at the table it's different. And that's where I do feel like I can look at one or two people while we're having these conversations and get a true feel and understanding where I can't get that again and I can't get that in the middle of a church service or a big activity or something going on in the church.

That works for me as a man better if I'm in a conversation like you and I are having. I get a much better feel where you are and what you're thinking and feeling than I would if we were just passing each other on Sunday morning. Hey, Will, how you doing? It's good to see you. Everything good? Yeah, everything's great, Ken.

Everything's perfect. And it's easy to put that facade on, but if we can get away and get to the table, are you okay? You know, we'll ask some of those questions in our next segment. How do we lead into that? But that's where men who typically aren't emotionally driven can get a better understanding and feel the heart and the, you know, how you really are on the inside. You know, I've been motivated here.

My daughter sent me a couple of things from, she sent me a couple of things from, you know, that was happening on the social media. And these guys would go around and say, okay, there's like two or three or four or five things we want to talk about with respect to the Lord. So we can go into that too on the second half. But as we're winding down right now, Pastor Ken, and, you know, I think our process is pretty much set.

You get on the phone, you call someone over, you invite them to lunch, you invite them to dinner, you get them there, text them, you know, or you go to the house and say, hey, you know, pick them up. So with that said, I think when we start getting into the second show, then we're going to be talking about some of those how-tos and how to keep the person at the table. And then some of those discussions and conversations that we'll be having with respect around Jesus.

Absolutely. So as we wind it down, why don't you give us a word of prayer, sir, to all of our audience and we'll wrap it up. I'd love to. Father God, thank you for the afternoon and the evening here, hanging out with one of my best friends and somebody that I've come to love and know well. Lord, I thank you for the day. I thank you for the opportunity to talk about what you've led me to, something that's just a great passion in my life.

And that's helping. It's helping people where we are to get to a deeper place and to bring them to that love in you. And so we praise you for it. We thank you for it.

I thank you for the opportunity to come together and learn more and grow more in you. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen, brother. Hi, folks. This is Johnny, TOCOM's producer for ManTalk Radio Podcast. Join us every second Saturday of the month at 8 a.m. for Bold, becoming obedient-led disciples out at the Singet Union Cross Campus, located at 1650 Pecan Lane, Carnesville, North Carolina, 27284. And grab a biscuit for your body and some fellowship for your spirit.