Justice or Racial Profiling?

This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Man Talk, brought to you by TAWCMM, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where they're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination, and challenging men to take their God-assigned role. Here's our hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy.

Welcome once again to Man Talk Radio. I'm Will Hardy, the black guy. And I'm Roy Jones, the white guy. And Roy, you know, we were talking earlier today in reference to a story that came out. It actually happened back in February. And, you know, it's now sort of like hit the wires pretty heavy about an incident that happened down in Georgia.

So talk a little bit about that. Well, to me, it's amazing that it's taken two months for it to get out, to be quite honest. I mean, if it was anywhere in the news back in February or the first of March, I didn't hear about it. I don't know if you had it either. Most people that I've spoken with have not heard about it until just last week or so.

Exactly. And so I was watching the video earlier this week, early morning, just picked it up off the web and said, you know, two men shoot young man jogging, you know, so then I said, what is this all about? And so then I started looking, it was two white men had shot a black man, and under the auspices that they thought he might have been somebody who had been doing break-ins within the neighborhood. But you know, I was just shocked, Will.

I mean, I'll be very, very candid here. Disappointed, shocked in this time of unrest, because of what we're dealing with, you know, across the world, and just so many different facets, you know, with COVID-19 and just the lack of, I guess, value of life, I would put it across the board. And then just to see what I saw on the video, just it set me back on my heels, to be quite honest. And you know, Roy, when I looked at the video as well, and when I saw what I saw, you know, there was a lot more questions, I think, than answers.

Probably you had the same thought. But this thing happened down in Brunswick, Georgia, and I have in my hands, just an excerpt from an Associated Press story that was aired on in Jacksonville, Florida. And what it stated is that this guy, Ahmaud Arbery, he was jogging, but this story, I'm just going to read it verbatim. And he said, Ahmaud Arbery's mother, Wanda Cooper, is asking for justice in her son's death. The police report states on Sunday, February 23, at about 1pm, police responded to an incident of shots fired at the intersection of Satilla and Holmes Drive.

When Glen County police arrived, they found Arbery 25 dead on the scene. An officer began speaking with Gregory Michael, named as a witness to the incident. Gregory McMichael, excuse me, McMichael, who worked several years for the Brunswick Police Department, before working as a investigator in the Brunswick District Attorney's Office, told police there were several break-ins in the neighborhood. McMichael told police he saw Arbery running down Satilla Drive. He then ran inside his home and asked his son, Travis McMichael, to help him confront Arbery. McMichael and his son got a shotgun and a handgun because they said they didn't know if Arbery was armed or not.

The police report says the father and son got into their truck and drove down Satilla Drive toward Burlord Drive. Gregory McMichael stated when they arrived at the intersection of Satilla Drive and Holmes Drive, they saw Arbery running down Burfon Road. In the report, McMichael says they attempted to cut off Arbery, but he turned around and began running back in the other direction. McMichael and his son continued to follow Arbery.

They shouted, stop, stop, we want to talk to you. McMichael pulled up next to Arbery. Travis McMichael got out of the truck with the shotgun. According to statements, that's when McMichael says Arbery attacked his son and the two men started fighting over the gun, at which point Travis McMichael fired a shot.

A second shot later, there was another. Arbery fell down on the pavement and then his mother says, I'm feeling very discouraged at this point. And she told this to First Coast News, which again, this article that I'm reading from is from Florida, Jacksonville.

I just think about how they could, how they could allow these two men to kill my son and not be arrested. That's what I can't understand, Cooper added. Arbery was a football player, a graduate from Brunswick High School in 2012. He went on to attend South Georgia Technical College.

Cooper said her son was pursuing a career as an electrician. Lee Merritt, Cooper's attorney, tells the First Coast News they are concerned about this case due to McMichael ties to law enforcement community. And then Merritt says McMichael and his son are using a citizen's arrest statute in Georgia to justify the shooting. The statute states, and again, I'm quoting this from the, from the paper or reporter and not the actual statute as it appeared in Georgia. The statute states that a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in the presence or within his immediate knowledge. We repeat that again.

We want the listeners to hear that again. The statute states that a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in the presence or within his immediate knowledge. We have no reason to believe that either actor here, Travis or Gregory, observed a crime Merritt said. So that's, that's basically, and it had, it had a few more other things in there. But I think the question here, Roy, is it's several fold question. Number one, they didn't see him actually committing a crime. So it was, it was suspected because they had reports within the neighborhood that break-ins were occurring. And then in another story, they said that he met the description. Right.

Which meant what? A young black guy that's lean, that's the description. So he's running down the road.

So this, is there a probable candidate? So, I mean, it's, you know, it's obvious racial profiling or whatever you want to call it. You know, they just took a stereotype said, okay, this must be our guy. And so why not just call the police? Say, Hey, there's a guy running through neighborhood.

We have some break-ins come check it out for us. If you wouldn't know if there's anything instead, you know, being a former police officer, I assume he felt empowered to some degree to go do what he did, but, you know, they said two shots, I think in the article you just read, but when I watched the video, there were three shots and looking at the video, there was a shot fired before there was ever any engagement before, before there was ever any engagement with, um, um, well, you know, that's what happens when live shows, when you have your telephone, sorry about that listeners. That was my ringtone, but, uh, uh, that that's, um, back to the point, there were three shots fired according to the video. And it appeared that one of them was when he was coming around the truck, there was no, there was no altercation. There was no physical contact at that point.

He was trying to run around the truck. That's when the first shot was fired, at least from my vantage point and watching the video. Then that's when they get into the fight over the gun. He comes back around and I don't know if the young young man had been hit at that point. And that's why he started fighting. Cause that's one, what one would have to question was he hit when he came around the corner when that first shot went off and that was fired from the top of the person up in the top of the pickup truck. Right.

Right. That was where that was fired. And then watching that, you know, you would have been fighting with somebody with a gun as well. I mean, it's, it's fight or flight at that point, you know, he's already been shot at. So he's, he comes around the front of the truck and there's another person with a gun. I mean, that's that, to me, that's a natural reaction to go to try to get the, to do that person, take the gun away because, you know, you're trying to defend yourself. You're being shot at and you haven't done anything. Exactly. So, and then when he starts to run away, there's another, I think maybe one shot goes off while they're together. And then another one goes when he starts to go away.

So I believe there were three shots, if I remember correctly, I think you watched it as well. I just don't know, Will. It just breaks my heart to be honest with you. I couldn't imagine I saw the lady being interviewed, what she's going through and how she's feeling and, you know, loss of her son.

It's so, so tragic and just senseless. You know, and, and I think when with the ministry, you know, that, that talk them has, and, you know, we are breaking down the walls of race and denomination. This is one of the reasons why we're talking about the subject today, of course, you know, because it's a subject that's always on the minds of people. And even in the midst of all the COVID-19 and the things that's going on, you know, crime still doesn't stop, but you have to, you know, you have to ask yourself a question. If these things, you know, if, if you suspected someone of something, and then you're using the law to justify what you're doing, then that in and of itself is, is a question, you know?

So, so you're trying to justify your actions by, by using the law and yet they didn't see him commit a crime based on, you know, based on what the law states in reference to a citizen's arrests. Well, there's one thing that will, that for sure will come out of this. And I think that the local NAACP leader in that area said, look, you know, we still need unity in this community. So, but I think one thing that can be said without a doubt is that this, this, this situation has got to be illuminated to, you know, to the whole nation to say, look, folks, it's time that, you know, we don't make rash judgments or don't jump out of the gates with, with these types of judgments on people when you're not even involved, you know, and it would have been so much easier to make a phone call. But the other piece of that is that these men will live with this the rest of their life.

That's right. They will live with this the rest of their life and there'll be no getting past that. But we're coming up on a break right now. Stay with us, with ManTalk Radio, and we will continue this conversation when we return. is at their gracious Host Church, First Christian Church in Kernersville, 1130 North Main Street in Kernersville.

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Call 336-885-1987. Welcome back to ManTalk Radio. And we've been talking about an incident that happened back in February of this year. And now it's began to come on the radar of many people because it's been caught on all of the network news. And you know, I think Roy, what really propelled this is the fact that when the people started protesting, you know, I think I think that gave it some visibility and awareness. Exactly. And started moving, you know, that momentum forward in reference to this. But, you know, we can't have vigilante justice.

Not at all. And, you know, you mentioned that it was the protest that got the momentum started, then it got the illumination, I guess, in the newspapers. I mentioned to my wife when I first saw it this way, I said, what if that had been two black men in the truck and a white man running down for a jog? What would have been the outcry? What would have been the reaction? And in my heart of hearts, I know that it would have been a different reaction. It would have been immediate response. It would have been immediate investigation, immediate, you know, probably holding until further, at least taking the custody until they got to the bottom of it. Here, it's two months later, and they've not been taken into custody. And now this video, I don't know how long this video has been out because that video just surfaced the other car that we, the video we were watching. So I don't know, I don't know who was following that situation or if it just happened to be somebody driving up in the neighborhood at the time. And I, yeah, I don't know either, but I think it was just recently released, the video.

I don't think it was released, you know, before it made this national news. Right. So, you know, there's, but again, you know, it still leaves that question that there's, there's more questions than answers. And that's about the situation, but I think it's a systemic problem.

Right. And I think this goes back to generationally. I think there's still, and I hate to put it this way, but there's that hardwired stuff from people early on in life, you know, back in the sixties and seventies when things were just starting to shift and still yet today, there's still areas of struggles we see.

So I don't know if it's going to be another generational thing until we get past this generation that these millennials and all this group XGen and all this group have a different look, a different view of everything than what their parents, grandparents, and all those people had. And, and, you know, it's, it's just really sad, Will. It's just really sad.

I don't know other words for it. It is. And, you know, you start getting you know, a lot of celebrities, you know, started chiming in too, you know, of on this. And I saw where LeBron James had made the comment about said, we're literally being hunted. And that's, that's what he said. In fact, that's the, that's the quote here that I got. And again, this is from the Associated Press and he, he had heavens, he said, heavens above to your family.

And this was LeBron James on Twitter. And he actually did this on May the sixth, according to the article. But yeah, that's what, that's what he stated here. And he joined for cause of justice, that the two men be arrested and held until, you know, an investigation is completed. That's what he was calling for, for them to be arrested and held.

That's what he was calling for, according to your article here. So, you know, there's again, you know, this, this age old mentality that's really has compelled the mind of people. And, you know, when we as children of God, when we sit from the outside and we're looking in, you know, at situations like this, it, you know, it moves me in a sense to say that I thank God that we're doing what we're doing in order to combat some of this mentality that's out there. Yeah. I mean, that's what this whole ministry is about, right?

Is that we want to break down the walls of race and denomination. And, you know, I guess what goes back to this particular situation in my heart, Will, is that if the, if the dad had just led the way and just said, Hey, there's a guy running through the neighborhood might be, might be the person of interest. We just need to call the police. And, you know, if you want to go following around the neighborhood, you know, so be it, you know, you can say, Hey, I'm following the young man that we think might be, you know, associated with these, these break-ins and don't do anything, you know, and, and don't go armed. Now I know a lot of people carry it concealed, you know, many, many of our friends, we've talked about this and, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm true blue on that one, as far as, you know, I support gun ownership and, uh, but I also support control. I support training. I support, uh, the right people doing that. Not, not just everybody doing that just because it's the thing to do. And having a concealed carry doesn't mean you're ready.

You're ready to be in these kinds of situations at all. And see that, but that's, I think, again, that's that mentality, you know, because when people get that, you know, steel in their hands, you know, they feel empowered, even though no one is really giving them the authority to do it. They they're doing it because they say, I have the right to carry this gun and I have, I suspect that this is happening.

So they go out and start doing these things on a whim. Yeah. And if the dad had led the way, he said, is this a wise decision? If he had just asked himself and asked his son, is this a wise decision for us to be going out here? Well, the, the, the natural answer and the obvious answer would have been no. Right? Exactly. So, and then they should have, if he had just paused, hit the pause button for a moment and then say, okay, let's just call the police and let them handle this. And okay, let's just go ride around the neighborhood and just see where he's at. And we'll just tell the police where we're at, where we're at, if you really felt that convicted, but, you know, it goes back to that was all suspicion and profiling, right?

Because they didn't see if there were not immediate witness or immediate knowledge of him breaking into any of the homes. You know, I'm reminded of, uh, I've sat in, um, years ago, just sat in, in the court and listened to attorneys, you know, argue cases and, uh, years ago. And when an attorney knows he's going to, um, you know, get a rejection in reference to a statement that he is making, he knows he's going to, someone's going to object. I know they're going to object when I'm going to say this, but his ideology is to put the thought in the mind of the juror, right?

Plant the seed, you know? And, and so when it comes to things like this, I think we have to really be careful because what it does is if we listen to so much social media and we start looking at all these comments and we start reading them, we say, wow, this individual here, oh, he has no idea of the deal of the facts of what he's talking about. He's just making an opinion. And see, this is, this is, again, we start getting into the opinions rather than the facts. And of course we, we are not stating the truth, general truth in reference to something because we're, we're responding emotionally more than likely to someone else's comment. Well, you know, the opinion, like you're talking about, there was two people that recused themselves, right?

Exactly. I think maybe one was an attorney and then maybe another law enforcement officer or something, but they recused themselves or said, look, I don't see anything wrong with this, but because of the relationship, I'm stepping aside and that they'd made the comment. There was nothing to pursue, you know, which I think is very interesting because to your point will they took the word of these two gentlemen without doing any due diligence, at least from the indications we've got until now, they said, okay, you know, you're right.

You were, you were justified in what you did and your behavior, right? So therefore we're not going to investigate. So until the protest started until the illumination came on the event, and now it's going to be taken before grand jury, from what I understand is what everybody's pushing for. And I think even some of the local authorities there have agreed that the grand jury will decide whether it moves forward or not. And, you know, I think just from what I've read and without reacting, you know, that there's, there's enough suspicion with their actions and what they did in order to say, let's move this forward, you know, but I'm sure that they're going to, or they have already questioned these men and, you know, cause they got statements from them, you know, after it occurred and the investigation obviously is ongoing. And we hope that when that evidence is presented, then things will begin to become a lot clearer as to what their intentions were, because if, you know, from, from what I've read so far, there's no justification, you know, in, in what they did.

No. And the statement that you read will, from what I could tell, didn't line up with the video, because they, the way the statement read, or at least with the description, it sounded like they said he started fighting with the sun 40 shots were fired, which is contradictory to what the video, what we could see on the video, I should say, because there's no way that he could have been fighting when he's the young man was on the other corner. The young man was on the other corner of the vehicle. Right.

And so this young man came from the right side, the passenger side, and the other guy was up in the bed of the truck, which I think you said was the father. So, um, you know, just bizarre and folks, the whole point of this conversation is to let you know, we don't accept it. It's not a behavior that any of us accept. We've got to love one another Christ commands us. That's the greatest command of all to love your neighbors yourself. Right. And, and, and second greatest command, I guess.

But yeah, we know what the first one is. The point being in our worldly day that, that love your neighbors yourself. And if this had just taken place, if this had just happened, then, then this would never have happened.

If they had just shown love and grace, cause grace, you know, it's not like he's killed somebody as a breaking into a house. Possessions is a life really worth it is a young man being taken out and a family destroyed worth and opinion, like you mentioned earlier, it was their opinion. And that's what's happened here. And folks, this is wrong.

This is wrong. And this is what our show's about bringing us together. And we were going to continue this conversation next week when we talk about man talk. And because this is something that's on my heart, but we're going to wind this thing down and showing and saying exactly what we should be doing as men and how we should put Jesus Christ in our life. Yeah. And we've seen some situations just in the COVID-19 physical separation that have had some concerns, right?

Related to how particular groups are treated and others not. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back with you next week.

God bless. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM talking and walking Christian men's ministry is building a community of men that are Christ followers with a desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk.