How Do We Relate To Each Other Part 1

Hey, this is Mike Zwick from If Not For God Podcast, our show.

Stories of hopelessness turned into hope. Your chosen Truth Network Podcast is starting in just seconds. Enjoy it, share it. But most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing the Truth Podcast Network. Here's our hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy. Welcome to Man Talk Radio and I'm Will Hardy. And I'm Roy Jones Jr. And Roy, we have an exciting guest today. Amen. We do, Ms. Jane Lessard. And Jane, welcome to Man Talk. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Could you just tell our listening audience a little bit about yourself?

Sure. I am married to one of the kindest men on the face of the earth, Paul Lessard. And we had two kids. Taylor is our oldest and she is a PA, a physician's assistant, and Thomas Bell and Jordan is a financial advisor here in High Point. And we presently have two grandkids that I'm just crazy over. Well, that's awesome, Jane. I've been working, I guess, a little bit of my background, 40 years doing individuals and couples and marriage counseling.

That's kind of what I do when I'm not with my family. And that's what we are here to talk about today. We're talking about the issues that men and women are facing, couples and marriage.

And we're just going to let God just take control and go in the direction that we lead us. So, Roy. Yeah, thank you, Will. And being as transparent as I am, I have no problem sharing. I know Jane professionally and personally, so I'm sitting across the mic and the table from her as one of her former clients, I guess would be the best way to put it. So, folks, counseling is good for anybody.

If you're in a struggle in your lifetime, if you're in a struggle with your marriage, if you're in a struggle with your spiritual walk, you need to get lined up with a strong, strong counselor that is a Christian. And that's what we have in Jane Lessard. So, I just want to give her kudos from the bottom of my heart and say thank you so much for what you've meant in my life personally, as well as with the men that I work with on a regular basis. So, thank you, Jane. Thank you, Roy.

So, with that, let's lead off here, Will. Jane, I'm going to just jump out here and just ask, what is the number one problem that you see with men, whether they're single or in marriages, that they struggle with? Probably the number one thing that you see, the most common denominator across all the men over the years you've seen.

If I had to name one, Roy, it'd be a fear of vulnerability. That men tend to see vulnerability as a weakness. And it's really what women are craving, is that intimate connection. But our society has made it that the heroes in the world, they don't really show feelings.

They're strong and unavailable. And so, men don't have those deep relationships, not only with their wives, but with other men. Yeah, we've talked about that quite a bit, is the need for intimacy and fellowship.

Christ had the 12 disciples, soon to become 11, but he had the 12 with him for three years. And if he modeled it with a strong level of fellowship and intimacy, that's the very thing we should be following. And Jane, how much of that do you think relates back to childhood father wounds, that they've either been hurt, or it wasn't demonstrated to them how to be open like that?

Well, Roy, I definitely think you're on to something. I think fathers typically, from the great generation down, they haven't tended to be soft, but tender, intimate, huggy. And so, men grew up thinking that not only from their fathers, but also from their fathers, but also from TV shows. And so, that's what they think a real man is, and it's so far from the truth. Jane, with the vulnerability, going back to that question, is that for all men across the board, or do you see a difference in the vulnerability of saved versus unsaved men?

I think there are some believers that get it, because they have that intimate love relationship with Christ. And I think it's hard for a man to surrender even to Christ. It's harder for a man than a woman. Women long to surrender, we long to surrender ourselves to another.

That's just, women want that. Whereas for a man, I think that surrender is harder. But when I see that in a man, like with Roy here, if a man totally surrendered to Christ, then they're going to be hugging their brothers, and being real and honest and vulnerable about their struggles, and that would play out in their marriage too. So, what would be that thing that would prevent them from surrendering to Christ? The one universal sin, pride. And that transcends into several other things, right? They want to give up control of certain parts of their life, or they don't want to have to live by a different set of rules.

That's right, Roy. Surrender is, you know, you're turning your life over to the God of the universe to do with a DC fit, which is actually the most exhilarating journey any of us could ever think of, but for some reason it's terrifying for all of us, men and women. Jayne, in all your years of counseling, we over the last year have talked a lot about pornography and distractions, and we're seeing it more and more every day. And we've talked also about it seems to be a growing number of women that are getting engaged with this, or hooked or addicted to it. Can you speak a little bit to that, to what you see, not just the obvious damage, but the collateral damage that you've seen through families and through the spouses of either side that this has caused, and how difficult it is to work through that?

But there is hope. Yeah, pornography is actually just a flight from intimacy, that you don't surrender yourself to your wife or your husband, and you take, literally, so to speak, matters into your own hands. And so the outcome of that is, whether you're a man or a woman, it takes you into isolation.

You don't need another, and there's not that surrender, there's not that vulnerability. I'll take care of my needs, you take care of yours, and intimacy goes out the window. And it is Satan's, one of Satan's greatest ploys to destroy men, women, and marriage. Men, women, and marriage. Yeah, I think I've encountered that too, Jane, in my years of counseling, where men attempt to make substitutions for the things that their wife is not submitting to them on or in. And so they look for these things outside of the marriage, and I think that's, as you stated, that's the deception that Satan wants to interject here, is that if I'm not getting what my physical needs need to be filled here at home, then I'm going to look elsewhere.

Jane Taylor Correct. And this is the great battle between men and women. A woman wants to be loved and known, and a man truly wants intimacy too, but isn't as aware of how to get it because of his father wounds and our societal norms.

And so a woman says, I won't let you have me unless I know you love me. And then a man, they go down these creeping separate roads, and a man will turn to pornography, and a woman will have an affair, or marriage begins to separate. Darrell Bock That's one thing too, and the affair piece is, men will often think about it being a physical interaction or a physical affair, but Jane speak back to the need to feel loved, and this could even go back to the wounds of the father for the daughter, is that if there's a void there, and then the husband's not filling the void, then they immediately look outside the marriage for that fulfillment and create an emotional affair, if you will.

Is that right, Jane? Jane That's right, that's correct, and that's actually much more threatening to the marriage than a physical affair. A physical affair can easily be broken, but when a man or a woman leave the marriage for that deeper emotional connection and find it, it's harder to make the marriage work again. Darrell Bock Wow. And that's something that I've seen where if a man or a woman look for physical or financial affection or satisfaction outside the marriage, one thing that I've seen is that those marriages typically do not last very long. Jane A wrap. Darrell Bock So when they get out of the marriage looking for a way of escape, and then they get into another relationship, then they begin to find out that some of the same things that they may have been encountering with their marriage, now they're encountering with this individual whom they have the affair with.

Darrell Bock Well, that's the one thing I never have understood. People leave somebody for someone else, and then they think, well, how would you ever trust the other person? I mean, in totality, right? In the full heart. How would you ever trust each other? Because you both have left the situation to join each other.

To your point, Will, once that becomes old and worn down, then you're off to doing the same thing. Folks, we'll be right back in just a moment. We're out for a break here. Jane, we're so excited to have you. Great topic. Good start for the show. We'll be back in just a moment.

You guys have a great day. TAWCMM would love to have you join their community of men for breakfast every first and third Friday of every month. They have Bible discussions and fellowship after the best breakfast in town. The meeting location is at their gracious host church, First Christian Church in Kernersville, 1130 North Main Street in Kernersville.

They have a hard start at seven o'clock and a hard stop at eight o'clock. First time visitors eat for free. Join your hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy. Affordable chiropractic in High Point. As you might tell from their name, affordable chiropractic, even for the cash patient. Dr. Jeff Fricke has been caring for patients in High Point for 34 years. Physical therapy such as ultrasound and spinal decompression for disc conditions such as herniation, comprehensive care for auto accident injury patients with no out-of-pocket expense. Remember, affordable chiropractic on West Lexington Avenue in High Point.

Call 336-885-1987. Welcome back to Man Talk Radio. Jane, we're so glad to have you back with us. Thank you for taking the break there for just a moment. And I'm happy to be here too. Well, you know, Will, you know, Will, that's a good point. It's important that I tell you, Will, you know, I love you, Will. You know, I am so glad that, you know, it thrills me that at least through this pandemic, I get to see you every two weeks or so every week or so, but that's a good thing. And that smile and face does me good.

Plus your hair makes me jealous. Oh, okay. Okay. So, Jane, right before break, we were talking about the whole emotional thing, how dangerous that is. If a spouse develops an emotional relationship or affair with another person, that that's even harder to overcome and break through because they've had that deep level connection. So, and we were talking about that the trust factor then, even if, and I guess folks, if you're listening to the program and you're in the middle of a situation, or you're thinking about getting in the middle of a situation, be mindful of what you're hearing from this professional and this lady that loves the Lord.

She knows after 40 years of seeing it, and the success is much lower recovery if you've done something like that than it is anywhere. You shouldn't do anything. Let me just be very clear. You shouldn't be doing anything outside your vows, but listen, listen, do not allow yourself to go down this path. Don't allow Satan to take you off this journey onto this particular path because he is the king of distractions.

Amen. So, Jane, what is the percentage of men that you counsel, just individual men that you counsel, that's followers of Christ versus those who are not? My practice is really a mixture of believers and unbelievers. I'd say probably 50% are believers and 50% are unbelievers.

Wow. And do you see in those percentages, do you see differences with respect to the problems that they bring you? Oh, good question. Born again versus not? That's a great question. And, you know, honestly, well, I can't say that I do.

I'd say they're pretty similar. The one thing that I do see Christian men bring to counseling is what does it mean to be a spiritual leader of mine. There's a lot of confusion around that for Christian men, not knowing what it looks like.

And that's why I'm so excited y'all are doing what you're doing. Praise God. You know, that's an alarming response, isn't it, if you think about it, that there's not really a lot of difference between the secular and those that are Christ followers, with the exception of what does it mean to be a spiritual leader of my household? Well, you know, the thing that I have seen in counseling Christian men versus non-Christian men, that with the non-Christian men, and again, I haven't been doing this as long as Jane, but the thing that I have seen is that the non-Christian men, you have to really filter through more lies that they will tell in reference to their situation when they're coming because they are the most resistant. And it goes back to what Jane talked about, that pride thing. So pride is keeping them from really opening up and telling the truth. So it's like, now you have to sort of like dive down through the weeds and filter out those things that you believe what they're saying is true based on additional questions that you ask, you know, versus non-Christian men. And that's not to say, however, that Christian men don't lie, they do. But I think that's the one thing that I see. So you're saying that Christian men are more likely to be deceptive to tell you what the situation is coming in, and then you have to uncover it, than the secular person is?

Am I hearing you right? Vice versa. Okay, so you're saying the secular person is more likely to mask the situations. And Jane, do you find that to be the case as well? I do, but I also think the curse has caused us to lose sight of the real battle.

We all tend to chase the American dream, comfort, accumulation, image. Whereas Christ says, like, and John says, this is life, that you might know me, the only true God. That's life at its essence.

And so the curse has really caused believers even to lose sight, that we are in a battle. And it's not about being comfortable. Well, you're exactly right, Jane, and that's what comes to mind is dying to self and taking up the cross. Exactly. And I think, especially as men, if we really look at the essence of it, we're supposed to love our wives unconditionally, like Christ loved the church, and he gave himself up for the church.

So if that's what our role model is as it relates to the family unit, then everything in our family should be more important than we are as men. Yeah, and see, and that's like we were talking about just a minute earlier. You almost, as a counselor, and again, this is my experience, you almost have to be like an attorney. You have to have follow-up questions to eventually sort of hone in or target what that underlying issue that the individual is hiding. And they don't want you to know, they just want to give you enough, but not really shine the light on them because of this element of what we call shame. So if they reveal something and it's like, wow, is he going to think, how can you do this, you know, and sit here with a straight face, that type thing. Right. So have you had that experience also, Jane?

Absolutely. I think pride and shame keep us hiding our true self. I think Christ calls us to take off our grave clothes and come out into the light and be vulnerable.

And so you're right. We find ourselves trying to dig through the mask and all the ways that we hide. And that's really what therapy is all about, is bringing it into the light. Well, that's a great parallel because I had never thought of it because Christ was vulnerable the whole time, right? You know, the three years that we track in scripture, he was vulnerable the whole time. He was walking, he was traveling, he was in mass crowds and he was serving.

He was never being served. It was always serving others. And, you know, the beauty about Christ and the ministry that he had is that God let him do all that he needed to do before it was time for him to go to the cross. So it's like, you know, that example I think should be a beaming one in particular to the born again believers is that God has us here for a specific time. And each one of us have different journeys that we're on.

But, you know, we think in terms of, I'm here until my time is up. So I need to be redeeming that time as the scriptures say, because the days are evil. You know, I'm just saying if every man were to model himself after that whole thing of being a servant and being totally vulnerable, and then also if that man would take the mindset that if I let my family down, it's no different than, you know, when the separation occurred on the cross, when God had to turn his back on all the sin. If you think of love in that context, that Christ had to be separated from the Father, that every time you're doing something against your family, that you're breaking that connection and that communion together and that union.

That's a great picture, Roy. And that's what we do. We do break fellowship with God when we sin. And that fellowship is once again restored once we repent of that thing that we are guilty of and come back and restore fellowship. And now we become reconnected back to God.

So now we can start listening to his voice clearly and, you know, begin to carry out his plan for our lives. And I think Jane would say that most people recognize that, right? But they don't, and I would guess if Jane had a moment to share with us here, is that men and women both get used to each other. So they don't think of that break. Would that be a fair statement, Jane?

They don't think of that break. That's very fair, Roy. So and how, you know, we've got another moment or two for this session here, Jane, but what would be the one thing you would want to say to every man that's listening today? If you were to give them a couple things or a couple things of advice to help them in a preventive measure in their life and to be the most proactive spiritual leader of their homes, what would you say to them? I would say that Christ has called you to this magnanimous battle so that you can lead your family, your wife and your children, into an intimate relationship with Christ, and that that's done not through, you know, physical strength or bringing in thousands of dollars or having even great ministry or being a great golfer or whatever, whatever you tend, it is by sacrificially loving in an intimate way, your wife, your kids, your friends, and pointing them to Christ. That's really good, Jane. Well, folks, if you've enjoyed this show, join us again next week.

Jane's going to be back with us for another round of question and answer time and sharing. And we just want to remind you that, you know, God loved you enough to send his son to die for you. And all you've got to do is recognize that he died for you, repent of your sins, ask him into your heart and start following Christ.

And he will promise you and does give you eternal salvation if you'll just do those things. And remember, folks, we're not guaranteed tomorrow and tomorrow may never come. Jane, it's been a pleasure having you. We'll look forward to having you back with us next week.

Will? I just want to say God is good and Satan is alive. So we joined us again next week.

And we're hearing a bunch of them these days. Amen. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry is building a community of men that are Christ followers with the desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk.