And The Bride Wore White | Dannah Gresh

Our kids right now have been guinea pigs in a grand gender experiment, and we're starting to see that it didn't work. But we have hearts to heal and we have truth to communicate to the next generation so that they can handle this confusion with truth. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . 25 years after its debut, author Dana Gresh returns for a conversation about her updated and revised book, and the bride wore white.

This new edition tackles one of the most debated topics in the church today. Our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us is that revised and updated book, which is subtitled, Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity No Matter Your Past. Just go to buildingrelationships.us. Gary, I think this is one of those books that came out at a pivotal time and helped a lot of people. And I'm interested to hear Dana talk about the updates and the revisions today.

Well, I'm with you, Chris. I think this is needed today more than ever.

So I'm excited about the book, and I'm also excited about having Dana on the program today. Dana Gresh is a best-selling author, sought-after speaker. She's the co-host of Revive Our Hearts, a daily podcast for women, the founder of True Girl, which provides mom-daughter connection tools, including the True Girl podcast. She's written such books as Lies Young Women Believe, co-authored with Nancy DeMas Wagamuth, and Lies Girls Believe, and many, many more. Her featured resource is the newly revised and updated and The Bride Wore White: Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity No Matter Your Past.

You can find out more about it at buildingrelationships.us.

Well Dana, welcome back to Building Relationships. Oh, it's my pleasure to be back with you, Gary. Thank you for having me. Does it feel like 25 years since you wrote uh this book? I feel like that's going to age me, that question.

So I'm going to just refuse to believe. That it's been 25 years. Time flies. I hear you. I hear you.

Take us back to that time. What was going on in the culture and what did you want to accomplish with the original book? You know, it was a really interesting time. The sexual revolution had kind of come to a screeching halt. Few people know this, but in 1983, Time magazine ran a cover article warning that sexually transmitted infections had reached, and I quote, staggering dimensions and were, quote, a serious, wholly unanticipated consequence of the sexual revolution, unquote.

So the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s just came to a halt, but it didn't stop. the sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV AIDS. And so By the time you got to the to the nineties, polit politicians, educators. Moms, dads, everyone. Their favorite word was abstinence.

So it kind of awakened a sleeping giant in the church that needed to be awakened, and that is the church finally started talking about sex.

Somebody say hallelujah, because the ones that know the designer best. should be the ones speaking about it. But it was a it was a difficult conversation. It was a clumsy conversation. As soon as you start talking about abstinence, teenagers are like, well, what can you define that?

How far is too far? And so the church stepped in Praise the Lord. And started to talk about it, but they revolved the conversation around the word purity instead of abstinence because they wanted teenagers to know. This is about whole life living. Whole life integrity.

That was the intention.

So, I guess what I would say is this. What was happening? Is that the church was finally beginning to break its silence on a sacred topic where we need discipleship? And we were learning. We were learning to have a conversation.

So we didn't do it all with perfection, that's for sure, Gary.

Well, that's true, but I agree with you. It was a it was a move in the right direction.

So now, twenty five years later, you have revised that book. What made you decide to update it?

Well, because The conversation has matured. And that's a good thing.

So the church has learned how to navigate the conversation of purity well, better. Sexual integrity is a more widely used term today. One of the things, for example, the reason I wrote the book in the first place was I Was a youth leader at the time that the the purity movement was kind of at its height. And one of the pieces of the conversation that seemed to be missing was. The redemption piece, the grace piece.

You know, I listen to a lot of great conversations. about how to live with sexual integrity and sexual purity. But Girls like me, who had messed up when they were in their teen years, didn't feel really very welcome at the table.

So, kind of as a youth leader mama bear, I looked around at the girls in my youth group and said, Not on my watch. And so, I decided I'm going to pen my story. And I'm going to tell them how beautiful The language of redemption has been in my life. How beautiful the gift of God's grace has been in my life, and that there is. A beautiful, it's not a second chance, it's not a recycled status, it's not a damaged goods status.

It's called redemption, and the language is beautiful. When I entered the conversation, I think that is. Maybe a contribution I made that was helpful and.

Now here we are 25 years later, there have been so many great contributors who said, Hey, did you forget this part of the conversation? Hey, did we maybe overstate this? Truth. Hey, have we forgotten the beauty of singleness? Hey, are we maybe putting too much of an emphasis on the women's responsibility and failing to charge the men with the task of leadership in this area?

And so all of these questions inside the church merit. Revisiting the topic, but Gary, we also have. such a change in the landscape of the conversation in our country with gay marriage legalized in twenty fifteen. And it means that the complex conversation of demonstrating grace and compassion to people struggling with that issue in their life, which the Bible says is sin, we need to have the same grace and the same compassion to welcome them to the conversation. And of course, we have a lot of gender confusion that's affecting kids as young as as five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

So The conversation in the culture has changed, the conversation in the church has changed, which means that my book, as well as a lot of other resources, need to be updated for that conversation.

Well, you know, one of the main takeaways from the book is the transforming power of being vulnerable. How has sharing your own past struggles helped younger women who are navigating their own stories?

Well, I I just think it's it's it's so important for two reasons. One, James five sixteen Confess your sins one to another, and then you will be healed.

Okay, Jesus and Jesus only can. Erase our sins, forgive our sins. But the scriptures in many places, including the book of James, tell us that healing happens in community. Healing happens in the body of Christ. And so modeling vulnerability Is something that I've really made a priority in my life.

I want people to know, yeah, it's scary. But there's healing in that vulnerability, and you might even meet with somebody who doesn't know how to handle your vulnerability.

Well, then try again because there's healing in vulnerability, but also there's a testimony in it. I'll go to Revelation, it says that we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. Our testimony, my testimony. Really is the only truly useful thing I bring to the conversation of Christianity. The other stuff, You know, the studying of the scriptures and all that, it matters, it's very important.

But what has real power. in winning lost hearts for Jesus. Is my testimony, and so I just wanted to lead with my limp. I wanted to say, hey, world. Um if you've messed up I've messed up too.

Here is how I've found the redemption and the freedom of Jesus. And it includes Talking to people in our community with vulnerability and honesty, so they can kind of look you in the eye and say, I hear you, I see you, and I still love you. And you know, it doesn't feel like the love of a person when that happens. If it's happened to you, you know, it feels like the love of Jesus. being just imparted to you through somebody.

Are there other things that young women are facing today that they were not facing back then? Yeah, I I think it's it's worth Landing a little bit on this gender confusion because one of the things that's very interesting is that. Starting in 2011 or up until 2011, Gender confusion and gender dysphoria was largely a male issue. And you very rarely saw females struggling with it. Beginning in 2011, since then, it's It's you see this huge uptick.

in it becoming a female problem, and it's generally a problem that That is manifesting as what I would call late-onset gender dysphoria.

So that's happening in their tween years and in their teen years. True gender dysphoria tends to be evident in a child's life when they're very young. And so to have this huge change. Beginning in 2011, signified something. There's been some really wonderful, intellectually honest, non-Christian scholars who have pointed out that there seems to be a cultural contagion.

In other words, when you see gender dysphoria happening, it's happening in clusters.

Some call it cluster contagion. What it really is, is peer pressure. And I think that what's happening is what girl feels comfortable in her body when she's 12 or 13 or 14? You know, her body's changing, it's different. She's trying to understand that.

And body image issue has always been a part of the equation of transitioning into adulthood as a woman. But now you have the culture speaking so loudly that if you're discomforted in your body, it must be because there's something wrong with it.

Now, here's where it gets really double-minded: we tell girls all the time. When they don't like something about their body, their eyes, their skin, their face, their weight, their height, we tell them, you need to just accept yourself as you are. But when A girl is like at the age of 13 or 14, discomforted with the sexual portions of her body. Suddenly, the world's message is: you need to change yourself. That is the most double-minded, logical fallacy that I've ever heard in my life.

What she needs to do is figure out why she's feeling those feelings. And I believe she needs to take them through the filter of God's word to find out. why they're there. The prevailing evidence is that if she does that And her parents are actively engaged in a grace-filled way. that that dysphoria will dissipate over time.

Conversely, if she does start to transition, there's just a great move of detransitioners right now because it's not fixing the discontent, the emotional and mental unwellness that those girls are suffering with.

So I can't emphasize enough that this is one of the big reasons our kids right now have been guinea pigs. in a grand gender experiment that The wheels are falling off the track now, and we're starting to see that it didn't work. But we have hearts to pick up, we have hearts to heal, and we have truth to communicate to the next generation so that they can handle this confusion with truth. You mentioned earlier that the term the church began to use was purity culture, and it became a hot topic in the church. From your perspective, why has the conversation shifted so dramatically over the last two decades?

I think when the purity movement, I like to use the word purity movement happened because it was a movement. There were about 52 teenagers in the basement. of a church in the nineties. who were reading the headlines and hearing about People dying of AIDS. And they kind of said, hey, you know, if we lived according to the Bible standards, It would eliminate this problem.

And so these teenagers got the idea to write a contract that said, we're going to live according to the biblical standard of sexuality. And they called it their true love weights pledge. The secular news media picked up on it. People like You know, the Jonas brothers and Miley Cyrus, they're wearing purity rings. I mean, it was a freight train that nobody could stop.

Because everybody wanted to reward the decision of self-control in those kids' lives. I would say that any time that a movement happens. The conversation can get kind of clunky because it is sort of a runaway train. It has a life of its own. Three, four years down the road, those 52 teenagers were in Washington, DC, signing pledges with.

Hundreds of thousands of other teenagers.

So I think that the conversation was applauded, it was awarded. And it was received. in that time frame. But there were some problems with the conversation. For example, you know, I wasn't a virgin when I got married and so The conversation felt a little incomplete without grace, and the word purity felt sort of hurtful to me.

I call it my pain word because when I heard it, I felt so impure. And I think that there are others. Who found pain words? In that conversation, and in the last two decades. And some of those pain words are things like male or female.

Modest? Mother has become a pain word, a word that was once seen as sacred and strong.

Now it's often dismissed as limiting or unwanted. Virginity or virgin, a word that's used as a badge, a weapon, a curse, depending on who's saying it. And so What's happened is these words. have become painful for people. Because we've been talking about them.

And what I really believe is that Satan is the master of linguistic theft. He steals God's words and he twists them. And so the problem is, these words are all in the Bible. Purity is in the Bible.

So it's a good, useful, and helpful word. And what I found, Gary, was when I took my pain to the Word of God. God was a I was able to say, Lord, why does this word hurt? Why does the word virgin hurt me when I hear it? I'm asking the Lord this in my 20s.

And when you go to the Word of God, He doesn't really necessarily take the lies you've believed. They're not always, the truth isn't always the opposite. God directed me. One of the most healing moments in my life to 1 John 3:2 to 3. Let me read that to you, Gary, because this was a pivotal moment for me.

To heal the word of purity in my heart and life. And I know there are other women that need this. I read it, it said, But we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him. For we shall see him as he is, all who have this hope in him. Purify themselves just as he is pure.

Okay, so the context of this isn't. sexual purity at all.

However, When I read it, there it was in black and white. I have no ability. To be pure in and of myself. And so it erased the pressure for me. To live up to this word purity.

However, It also explained why I was so intrigued with the word. Christ is pure. And I want to be like Jesus. and so my desire to be pure Was because of his purity. And so this was the beginning of me being able to look at that word, look it in the eyes, and say, Purity Are you a word that's bigger than Jesus in my life?

Are you a word that's bigger than his healing and his presence in my life? And the answer was no. But I also had to redefine the word according to the scripture. And when I did that, I found healing. But what's happening today is people are turning to TikTok to redefine the word purity.

And what they're finding is pain. They're finding Trauma. parties online rather than the freedom that I found. by looking in God's word. Yeah, yeah.

So some people have discarded purity culture entirely. But you're arguing for reconstruction rather than dismissal. What does that reconstruction look like? I think you've shared some of that just now, but other thoughts on that?

Well, you know, I think people want to discard purity culture, but I would argue that we desperately need a culture of purity in our nation right now. Our nation is marked by impurity, and I I don't mean that just in terms of sexuality. I mean that in terms of doctrinal impurity. The number of false teachers that have a mouthpiece through TikTok and YouTube and other things like that. The number of people that are sexually in pain or in confusion.

Is just so ubiquitous that we need to come to them with a healthier conversation. And I do believe that some of the critiques of purity culture have been helpful. I think many of the people that are critiquing purity culture. Are being like the Bereans, right? When we read about the Bereans and they were testing what Paul and Silas taught, is this really what God's word says?

Are you handling God's words accurately? That's always a good question. But Are the people critiquing the culture directing us back to God's word? And that's what I want to invite. I think if we're going to reconstruct the conversation, it's going to be.

with people who are using the Word of God. As the authority and as the source, because that's where the healing is. But we can't just discard words that are in the Bible. We have to use them better, we have to use them well, but we cannot discard them.

So after studying scripture and cultural trends for 30 years now. Uh what do you believe still holds true about biblical principles surrounding sexuality in the body?

Well, I think probably the most important truth is this. Our bodies, Genesis 1:26 and 27 tells us our bodies were created. In the image of God, in the image of God, He created us, male and female, He created them. You know, just you think about all of the things that are. Godlike about us and could portray God's presence could remind people of God's presence.

There's a lot. I mean, our language proficiency, our creativity, so much, our emotional capability, so much about us is Godlike. But in Genesis, God says, The maleness and the femaleness, the distinctiveness of those two things. Are very much a part of seeing my presence and my image in this world. And then you fast forward really from Genesis to Revelation, but you fast forward to Ephesians.

Ephesians 5, 31 and 32. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife. And this is a great mystery, but I'm really talking about Christ in the church.

So here you have that distinct maleness and that distinct femaleness coming together in the covenant of marriage. And the Bible says this is a picture of the love of Christ.

So I think that the most important biblical principle about our sexuality and our body. Is that we have the opportunity to Paul writes in. one of his letters to the church at Corinth to glorify or to make known or visible Who God is in our bodies. Glorify God in your body. And when we root what we understand about.

Gender and marriage and sex and relationship and love. In that truth. Not only do we have healthier More self-controlled. Lives But We also Fulfill our purpose on this earth, which is to showcase the presence of God and the love of Christ.

So you spoke earlier and you write in the book very candidly about the shame that you carried when you were younger. What really helped you move from shame to freedom? I think this is so important because the word shame is one of those words, I think, that. has been the victim of linguistic theft by the enemy. Shame, it's kind of like a knife.

Is a knife a good tool? or a destructive tool.

Well, it depends on whether it's in the hands of a surgeon or a murderer, right? In the hands of a surgeon, a knife can be a tool of healing. And in the hands of a murderer. It's a terribly destructive tool. Shame can be a little bit like that.

And when we experience shame, which all of us do, And we don't Scripture doesn't mention this emotion before sin was present on the earth.

So it is not always tied to, but sometimes tied to sinful behavior. But when you take your shame to Jesus. And you take your shame to a mentor. in the hands of someone that carries biblical truth, you can experience healing. but when you take your shame again to TikTok or social media, You're putting your hands in people that may or may not be knowing how to wield that tool, that that problem.

Effectively, I took my shame to the word of God. And Gary, I did not want to tell my story. I Was sexually active when I was 15 years old, and I never told anyone until I was 25 years old. Because why? Shame.

Shame But I found James 5:16 and it said, Deanna, confess your sins one to another, and then you will be healed. And I was like, Do I believe this book? Do I believe this book is true? Do I believe this book is powerful and effective and alive? And I I had to overcome my fear.

I was driving down the highway listening to a program like this. And I heard two questions, a question and an answer, two sentences. One, What's the number one question on a teenage girl's mind? when she's talking to her mom about sex. And the answer.

A woman's voice said The number one question is, Mom, did you wait?

Well, Gary, I gotta tell you, I was driving down the highway with my six-month-old baby girl in the back seat of my car. and I had to pull the side of the road. And I was like, wait, this shame? I can carry it my whole life. But do you mean I have to get rid of it and heal to be able to talk openly and honestly for my baby girl?

Well, this mama bear was willing to do for her what it wasn't willing to do for me. And I drove home that night and I confessed to my husband. And I don't Gary, I don't know how to explain to you, but in his arms I felt The healing of Christ. And with his words of forgiveness and affirmation, I heard the voice of Christ, and I was a different person night and day. It was like I had been reborn.

My mom said, It's like you've been reborn. I soon confessed to her. She's like, It's like you've been reborn. I wasn't. I was born again when I was a little girl, but I was revived.

By the words of scripture calling me into authentic transparency, and it erased shame from my life.

Well This is the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . We're talking with Dana Gresh about her updated and revised edition of the book And the Bride Wore White, Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity No Matter Your Past. Go to buildingrelationships.us or fivelovelanguages.com to find out more.

Well, Dana, as you were describing... your own experience, liberating experience. of confessing your past. and response of your husband and the response of God. I'm sure that if there are young listeners out there today who have experienced that.

Tears probably came to their eyes. And I hope God will use what you shared here verbally and what you share in the book. to help other young girls. come to realize they don't have to live with shame all their lives. But they do have to be willing to deal with it.

So that's just that's just super powerful. Thank you, Gary.

Now in the past, many parents have left this whole topic of sexuality. Uh to the church. Let those who lead the young people in the church, let them talk about this and this whole idea of sexual purity and so forth. Was that a good idea or a bad idea? That's always a bad idea.

I'll tell you why. Any area of moral development. That assignment has been given to mom and dad. God Spells it out real clearly for the Israelites in the Old Testament in Deuteronomy 6, where you know he says, You know, obey my commandments, and then listen, I want you to tell your children, and I want you to tell your children when you stand, when you sit, when you walk, when you lie down, because what is what's communicating there is repeat these boundaries that God's given to your children. again and again in your home.

Talk about them. all day long.

So a youth leader can't be there 24-7. When a child has been exposed to something on TikTok and they need to process that, they can't be there when mom or dad are noticing how. their child is looking in the eye and seeming to see looking in the mirror and seeing themselves differently. This task of moral development has been given to mom and dad, and it's an all-encompassing life conversation. It's not a one-time conversation, and it's not a once-a-year conversation with the youth pastor.

It's not a conversation that should be given over to the educational system, especially these days, because so much of that is unbiblical. It's a conversation for mom and dad. And so we have to step into the driver's seat of our child's moral development. Whether it's demonstrating kindness to people, whether it's self-control in the area of what they put in their bodies, or whether it's self-control and respect of other people when it comes to sexuality, this is our job as parents. And God's given us everything.

In the word of God for us to disciple them.

So what do you say to parents who feel that they're just unprepared in dealing with some of these sensitive issues? Maybe their parents never dealt with them, never talked with them about it. What do you say to those parents?

Okay, isn't this the state of parenthood that you just get whatever? You finally figure out a stage of life with your kids, and suddenly they're in the next phase of life, and you're like, I'm unprepared. I don't know how to do this phase. I mean, I'm still doing that with my adult children. And so I think what we have to realize is that.

though we may feel it in a different way when it comes to talking to our kids about sex, it is pretty much the norm of parenthood to feel that way. I would also say that generally it's not that we don't know how to talk to our kids. It is that there's still some shame we haven't resolved in our heart and our life. Maybe it's a pornography issue that we still haven't overcome. Maybe it's an abortion that happened in the past and you're still suffering in the silence of that pain and that shame and you've never talked about it.

Maybe it's that you and your spouse were sexually active before marriage and you're like, what am I going to do if my kid asked me that question? And I would say, I've said for years, Gary, That the first point for you is to work on the healing in your heart and life. You know, you need to go to someone, go to someone. older and wiser, who can handle the word of god accurately. Help you triage.

Is this a healing that I can do? With a friend in the church? Or is this a healing where I need some, you know, biblically informed clinical care? To get through this, maybe there's a pro-life clinic near you that you can join a Bible study that helps you walk through. you know, post abortion healing with other men or women who have been through that experience, but I know that there's healing for you.

And I think you'll find that once you break through the healing, the conversation does not terrify you nearly as much. Mm.

So what guidance can you offer about these conversations when you have children of different ages? Yeah, I would say the one big thing is Be prepared to talk about it sooner than you think. The world is talking about it pretty loudly. And our silence can become sort of a megaphone. the world lies.

If we aren't engaging in the conversation. And you know, Gary, I'm a grandma now, so they call me Nana Dana. Not not Dana. Not Nana or not Dana. It's Nana Dana.

One word, Nana Dana. And you know, I started with my grandbabies. When they're three or four, I'll say, you know what? It's so great that you're a girl. God chose for you to be a girl.

What isn't that amazing thing that God? made that decision about you. I'm so glad you're a girl because I'm a girl and I think it's great to be a girl. And for my grandson, I'm like, it is awesome that you're a boy. And then he usually makes loud noises and thinks it's great to be a boy.

But like, that is a theological conversation. To affirm. That God before the creation of The earth. God determined. Who you would be, how you would be.

And He chose for you to be male or female as an image bearer. Of his. And so, you know, that kind of conversation can be had when they're three, four, five years old. And then just watching for the readiness when the questions start to come. and answering them with honesty and integrity, not oversharing, being age appropriate, but it really is a lifelong conversation.

And the average child is exposed to pornography sometime between the ages of nine and 11.

So we've got to beat that conversation. And we've got to prepare them when they see pictures online that make them feel uncomfortable. They need to come. to mom and dad with those questions. Um because the likelihood is that it will happen.

Yeah.

So what are some of the biggest mistakes that well-meaning adults make and how can they avoid those mistakes? I really think the biggest mistake is is Just not engaging in the conversation. I see that regret. I hear that regret. Moms write to me all the time.

I wish I'd started this conversation sooner. I like to say there's a reset button in motherhood. There's a reset button for dads, too. That when you hear a conversation like this, And you're like, oh. My child's 12, and I haven't really done this very well yet.

Okay, all the grace. push the reset button. Get online. Find some biblical tools that you can trust. and begin the conversation of discipling.

Your son or your daughter in the area of their sexuality and their gender. I think that's the biggest mistake. The other mistake that I see parents make is. You know, your children are not your place of healing. When the Bible says confess your sins to another, we have to be very careful.

that were age appropriate. And appropriate in how we converse with our kids. I told my son Robbie. when he was in eighth grade. You know, I had written in the Bridewar White.

Some of his classmates were reading it. I thought I really need to be honest with him. But What I did is I took him out for a hot fudge Sunday. And I said, Robbie, I want to tell you why I love Jesus so much. And he said, why?

And I said, Robbie, I love Jesus so much. Because you know how I talk about sexual integrity. And I talk to teenage girls and try to help disciple them in that area. He said, yeah. I said, It's because I didn't do things God's way.

and I felt a lot of pain because of that. And I Until I really received the forgiveness of Jesus. It was really hard for me to talk about that. And that's one of the reasons why I love Jesus so much. And he's sitting there eating his hotch fudge Sunday, not saying anything like an eighth-grade boy, you know, would.

And I'm thinking, I need to know what he's thinking, what he's feeling.

So say, Robbie, what do you think about that? And he looked at me and he said, Mom, I think that's why Jesus died for you. And what a beautiful moment. I mean, what a beautiful moment. But I didn't share any details with my son.

I didn't get into the details. I was thinking about how do I disciple him? We've got to stay in that mindset when we talk to our kids and not overshare. and we're also being vulnerable. Dana, there are those who.

Because of teachings in the church about sexual purity and so forth. They've eventually left the church because they felt condemned. How can the church acknowledge pain while still communicating hope and purpose. and God's plans in this part of life. Yeah, wow, this is so important.

And I want to reaffirm the fact that You know, I was a woman. Who felt pain when I heard some of the Purity teachings. And I had to Um Look at that and decide what I would do with it. And again, I ran to the scriptures and I found healing there. But I think one of the things that we really need to recognize is whether or not.

It is the fault of the church. The pain is real. And is our goal to defend? a movement or defend a word. Or is our goal to minister to a heart and bring them closer to Jesus?

And so we do have to acknowledge What we could have done better? And we have to acknowledge our mistakes. And we have to welcome the conversation. This conversation that's happening. is important.

And it gives us the opportunity to identify things.

Now, then from there, we have to figure out what is a real Critique worthy of Talking about what is a perceived critique. One of the perceived critiques, and I don't know if it's perceived, I'm wrestling with this one, but you know, one of the things they say is that. All the responsibility was on women. To be Sexually pure. There was no responsibility on men.

But as I've looked through the historic teaching. of the purity movement. I really don't see that message communicated. Directly or overtly, and the majority of the speakers were men. And they were speaking to men and women.

I'm one of the voices for women that rose up because I felt like the needs of women were different. I do believe that sexual sin hurts women. in a way that it doesn't hurt men. Men can't get pregnant. Women are more susceptible to sexually transmitted diseases, and women are more susceptible to emotional pain.

And so I felt like stepping into the conversation. For some of the unique needs of women, was important. But when I've asked women who which specific teacher or what specific book told you? That it was the responsibility of women because when I look in scripture I find more evidence that it may be more the responsibility of men. And I haven't heard that.

And you know what? There's never been a woman who's been able to identify a specific teacher or book. That has said that outright.

However, it's still a real pain. It's still a real hurt, and it is a perceived message. That we need to be responsible to address.

So it's messy. I think what I really want to say to the pastors. and women's leaders listening. Let's go into this messy space and rescue some hearts. Dana, you spent decades mentoring young women.

What patterns or questions do you see emerging most often in today's world? You know, I think a lot of the questions are the same. They're generations old. You know, how far is too far? You know, what does the Bible say no to?

And what does the Bible say yes to? These are questions that have always been around. And honestly, as I was rewriting the book, one of the big critiques and really one of the criticisms of my teaching is that I. I invite girls to sit down. And kind of Write down what their boundaries are.

You know, how far is too far? What is your standard in dating? And I've been criticized for this, but I've really wrestled through it, and the Bible is a book of boundaries. God shows up in the Garden of Eden and says, Hey, Adam and Eve, I love you so much. Also, don't eat that tree.

That's my boundary. And the Ten Commandments. Israelites, you're my chosen people. You're my special people. You're my treasured possession.

And here are our 10 rules I want you to follow: 10 commandments. And, you know, so it is important for us to understand that. A love relationship with Jesus. Does not Preclude us from communicating to our children boundaries. And that's kind of the way the argument goes: is you know, if we just teach our kids to love Jesus, their behavior will line up with loving him.

I don't know that that. Is what we read in the Bible. I think the Bible is pretty clear about boundaries.

So I think their question: how far is too far? It's the question you probably asked when you were a teenager. I asked when I was a teenager. And we need to take them to what God's word says, what He forbids. Let me give you a really relevant cultural example.

One of the things happening today is there's a fan-only website, right? You app. And on this, OnlyFans. App People are basically paying. for sexual content.

And so Kids need to know that one of the things forbidden in scripture very clearly is prostitution. What is prostitution? It is when there is a a payment or a transaction. for sexual engagement. And OnlyFans is exactly that.

It's prostitution.

So, like, prostitution isn't something that you're like, oh, our kids are never going to fall for that. No, they are falling for it. They're falling for it every day on their screens. on OnlyFans. And so we need to teach these boundaries So that when they get to that invitation or that place, there's some clarity in their hearts and minds.

This is one of God's boundaries, and I need to be observant of that. I need to obey him. Because Jesus said: if you love me, you'll obey me.

So when you look at the cultural messages surrounding this whole concept of sexual identity, relationships and so forth, what concerns you the most and what encourages you the most? Oh, I would love to talk about what encourages me the most because I do, I see revival happening in Gen Z. I see it on It's not coming in like a tidal wave. But it's coming in waves of of behavior modification because of an encounter with Christ, a love of Christ, an overwhelming sense of the presence of God in their lives. And we're seeing it in less partying, less drinking, more controlled sexual behavior.

More kindness to one another. We're seeing something good happening right now. There is a cultural moment. that's happening that we need to shepherd. And we need to encourage those.

Those young people in our churches who are experiencing that. But in terms of what most concerns me, the word identity that you just said, Gary, that's the word, identity. identity what what I was talking about this. You know, Genesis says our identity should be as image-bearers. of God.

As either female image bearers of God or male image bearers of God. But still, our identity is. In God, in Christ, if we are believers. And the world today is saying your identity is in something very fluid, and it's how you feel. About your sexuality or your gender.

This is where the epicenter of the conversation is today, right now, is helping children understand their true identity in Christ.

So, as we come near the end of our time together today, Dana, if you could offer one takeaway for parents. For ministry leaders. Or for young women navigating today's hyper-connected world, what would it be? Oh, you know, the hyper-connected world is lonelier than it's ever been. Teenagers are lonelier than they've ever been.

They're experiencing more anxiety and depression. Than they have in ever. And we're seeing such an increase in suicidal ideation. And the thing is, they're on their phones all day being. Hyper-connected, but they're lonely.

So I would say the key takeaway for parents and ministry leaders is. Get them away from their phones and get yourself away from your phone. I'm speaking to myself now. I'm preaching to myself. And really look them in the eye.

And get to know them. Hear their hearts. Hear their dreams, hear their hopes, share yours. And I believe that's the greatest thing that we can do to fight. The impurity and the brokenness, the sexual brokenness, and the gender confusion in our culture.

For years, for 25 years, I've been saying parent-child connectedness. Is the number one risk reducer. God created you to be connected to your child. Connect today. Get the screens out of the way.

and go face to face.

Well, Dad, I want to thank you for being with us today on Building Relationships and thank you for the new material in this revision of your book. And this is an area that's so important, and we need voices like yours.

So, thank you for what you are doing, both in your writing and in your speaking. And I hope our listeners, as parents and church leaders, will join us in prayer that God will help us and parents to take seriously what we've discussed today.

So, again, thank you for being with us. My pleasure. Thank you, Gary.

Well, we hope Dana's vulnerability here today has encouraged you. We've been talking with Dana Gresh. The featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us is her updated and revised edition of And the Bride Wore White, Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity No Matter Your Past. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, you know him from his best-selling book, Boundaries.

Now he's offering glimpses of his life journey with God. Don't miss Dr. Henry Cloud in one week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.