What Happens When Roe Is Overturned?

The following is a prerecorded program. And you will get infused with faith, truth, and courage. You will get a dose of moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

You will get strengthened in your walk in the Lord. And if you don't believe, as I do, well, hopefully we'll present some things that'll get you thinking, that may challenge you to go deeper, and then together, let's pursue God and His truth. Welcome to the broadcast 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. The second half of the broadcast, I'm going to be speaking with Jonathan Cahn, and then with William Federer. It's going to be some very interesting interviews, I can assure you of that.

So, if you want to talk to me about anything, if you have a question on any subject under the sun that relates in any way to anything we ever talk about on the line of fire, now's a good time to call 866-348-7884. All right, I want to speak honestly, candidly, with understanding about pastoral ministry, about responsibilities to the church in the midst of the culture wars, in the midst of the moral controversies and confusion in America. How much should pastors lean into these things, be it political issues, be it cultural issues, be it moral issues? Is it only when it intersects with whatever the pastor happens to be teaching on or preaching on at a point in time? Should it be when the Holy Spirit says now's the time to warn or address or equip? Should it be based on survey the needs of the flock and getting a feel for what the people need to be strengthened?

I mean, all of the above can be true. There's relevance in each of the three things that I said. As you're teaching through the Word, you address whatever comes up, or the Holy Spirit lays it on your heart, you need to focus on this. Or, as you're interacting with your people, you realize, hey, we have some needs here.

So, I want to go to that last point first. If you're a pastor, if you're in ministry, please hear me out, because I'm a friend. I've worked in churches for 50 years. I've served in various capacities in church, from adult Sunday school teacher to elder, for a brief time pastor. One brother had to step down because of immorality in his life, and I had to fill the pulpit and help lead the body until we got the right person in, but that is absolutely not my primary calling.

But I've served churches around the world, worked with pastors from house groups to megachurches around the world. And I know that there's a lot on your plate that the average person can't understand. There's spiritual burdens you carry. There's the concern you have for the body, for people who are hurting. You're the one they call when they're struggling. You're the one that gets the call at 4 a.m. with screaming parents that they just found their teenage child dead of suicide. Oh, and it happens to be 4 a.m. Sunday morning, and you've got to get there and console them and then get ready to go preach at your church. And then when there's a budget crisis, because you've honored the Lord in a certain way and people have left, and now what are you going to do with the children's pastor that you just hired and your commitment to the food program and the inner city when the money's not there, and all this weighs on you, even if you have a team and a staff with you, as hopefully you do, and you're just doing this on your own, you have other pastors or elders, the fact is there's a lot of weight that you carry, a lot of responsibility that you have, and it can be very, very challenging. My purpose here is not to lay more weight on you or put a heavy burden on you, but rather to make an appeal on behalf of the on behalf of millions and millions of American believers. Let me be specific. Oh, I'm thinking maybe 10 years ago, a leading pastor in one large city in America with a congregation then of about 6,000, he was a board member of mine at that time, he said that he meets on a regular basis with the other megachurch pastors in his city, and he said at that time, it may have been more than 10 years ago at this point, he was the only one among them who would address the issue of homosexuality from the pulpit, even in terms of just ministering to people in the body about sexual issues. In other words, not talking about gay agenda, not talking about what was happening in society, he was the only one among them.

That's why I'm not mentioning the city because I don't want you to try to figure this was this one, you know, what about this? And we talked about the shocking pastoral lack in that because this is the world in which our kids are being raised, this is what's coming their way through media and social media and schools, this is what parents and singles are dealing with in the workplace, this is what folks are getting bombarded with in university campuses, and to not address these issues is negligence on a pastoral level. Please hear me. I am called to do a particular job. I am, quote, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

That's part of my calling. So I'm on the front lines in these issues, and I'm writing about them on a regular basis, and I'm taking heat for it, all right? We're putting out resources and others are putting out resources for you, so you don't have to do all the digging, all the research.

We're putting out new articles, new videos on a regular basis, and then other family ministries and others dealing with the culture wars, they're putting out information just like Family Research Council and other Christian conservative political organizations say, okay, here's a voter's guide, here are the different candidates, here are the issues, now go ahead and sort it out. They're doing the work for you. So I'm not expecting everyone to be expert where some of us have become experts, and I'm only expert in several areas, right? And I'm not expecting pastors, church pastors and teachers to emphasize the type of subjects that I do as much as I do. This is a matter of calling. And it wouldn't be a healthy church if you spent so much time talking about these things.

This is specialized ministry and specialized teaching and interaction that we're doing by way of radio and internet. But here's where I talk about pastoral negligence. Whenever I am asked to, whenever I'm asked to go to a church and address, can you be gang Christian or talk about human sexuality, inevitably at the end of the service or at the end, whenever we're done, Q&A, et cetera, there is a line of people still wanting to talk to me personally. So this is beyond the Q&A, and some of the Q&A is agonizing. There is a line of people waiting to talk to me personally, many of them weeping and telling me their stories.

Now, the problem is they've been there for years. They've been in that church, but somehow the issues weren't addressed until I came in. Now, credit to the pastor for saying, hey, Dr. Brown, could you come in and address these things? My joy to do it.

My joy to do it. But the concern was, what about what's going on in their daily lives? So I speak on this at a church that has really been trying to tackle these issues for years now in a loving, compassionate way, reaching out to the people with compassion, resisting the agenda with courage. I finished the last service Sunday morning, go over to the book table to greet some people, and one woman comes up to me.

And so I'm thinking, I'm just going back to talk to people, black, white, messianic Jewish background, male, female, younger, older, pretty wide range, right? A woman comes up to me. She works in special ed in a local high school. She has been there since 2006. I said to her, it's a regular high school, but she does special ed within it. I said to her, has the school changed since you've been here?

She goes, oh, completely, dramatically. She said the new principal is basically only hiring faculty and teachers for the school who are gay or lesbian, doesn't want to hear from those with a different point of view. She said he has completely transformed the school and what they put up in the walls and the halls and all this, completely transformed the school in front of her eyes.

Hmm. What happens to the kids who go there? So here, this woman maybe goes to your church, right? This educator, maybe some of the kids in your church go to that school.

Who's helping them as they're being bombarded with this? Another woman wants to talk to me. She says, local private school that they're involved with in the community, and not a private Christian school, but private school. And boy comes in to pre-K, pre-K.

So maybe he's four years old, maybe five. He comes in, he now identifies as a girl, wants to be called by a girl's name. Not only did they start calling him by a girl's name, but they now have the class reading books together. The teachers are reading books to the kids about, you know, I look like a red crayon, but I'm really a blue crayon. And then they start a blue crayon.

And she said it was going on for weeks before the parents even found out about it. Okay. Then driving in the car on my way to the pastor's house and talking to a gentleman who works with Wells Fargo. It's one of the biggest banks in America. Been there 41 years. I said to him, has it changed much since you've been there?

As he's driving, he's a mild-mannered guy, as he's driving, he puts his hands on his head like, oh my, you have no idea. And he said they are pushing out those with different views, not overtly firing, but pushing out. In other words, maybe it's June, Gay Pride Month. Okay. We want you to put these posters up or these banners up in your office. Now they're not forcing you to, but if you don't, you will be isolated, marginalized, and they will take note of that when it comes time to who are they going to give the promotion to or not. I have a friend that worked with Bank of America for years and a few years back, he said they basically squeezed me out. That's what happened. They squeezed me out. I'm speaking just another church a few months before that where they've addressed issues regularly, but this is what they're dealing with. Story after story after story after story.

I don't have time to relate them now. Last story, last night, a man comes up to me, tears in his eyes. He says, what do I do? My 17-year-old daughter now wants to be known by a boy's name. She wants to get on hormones. She wants to work towards sex change surgery. I'm not agreeing to let her do it. Her older sister has now cut me off for being hateful, won't even talk to me. Tears in his eyes, his own daughter. I said, how long has she identified like this?

He said, just the last year. He said two years ago, she was standing up with the pastor on moral and cultural issues. I'm with you, pastor.

I'm standing with you. And now this sudden and dramatic shift. Friends, this is happening in churches all across America. Kids in school are getting bombarded from pre-K up. Parents are dealing with difficult issues. Young people trying to navigate these waters.

Grandparents saying, what do we do about our grandson who wants to come over and wear dresses? It is a sacred pastoral responsibility, friends, to help those struggling, which means you've got to wade into controversial areas. You have to, for the good of the flock. It's my appeal.

We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Can I dare say that one major reason that so many people in our churches are struggling and so many families are struggling with these types of controversial, difficult sexual issues is because we have not addressed the issues sufficiently. In other words, we've been so focused on people, people, people, which is God's heart. God's focus is on people. But because we have neglected dealing with the issues with love and truth, now people are hurting and are more confused.

866-348-7884. I've been thinking about these things even more than normal because I'm speaking God willing to a few hundred leaders in the greater New York area this weekend, God willing, and just finished ministering at a church where the pastor was saying how his life and the life of the church was so transformed by our coming in and addressing issues with compassion and truth. We addressed the issues not just for the sake of abstract issues but for the good of the flock, for the good of the people. If you don't get my articles and videos updates on those, take a moment. I don't want you to miss anything. We're putting out resources virtually every day of the week to equip you, to help you, to strengthen you. It can be late at night and I'm thinking, I've got to get that article written and out. And we're putting out resources for free to touch as many as possible.

We don't want you to miss any of them. And especially, you just don't know which way censorship is going in social media, what we post that'll get blotted out. In fact, you know what happens all the time. Before January 6th, when Facebook and other social media outlets changed some of their algorithms, I could post an article, say from AskDrBrown.org, from our homepage or from stream.org, where I'll write exclusives and things like that.

So that's conservative Christian deals with a lot of political issues. I'd post an article from there, share it on our Facebook page, which has about 580,000 followers or fans, whatever it's called there. And if the article went viral, we could have it shared on Facebook over 100,000 times, combine shares, but any article would be shared a few thousand times.

That would just be a given. Now, because things have just been restricted on certain subjects, that same article may get shared 50 or 100 times, literally, or 200 times. So you don't even know it's there, right?

That's a different form of censorship, just suppressing data from getting out. So take a moment, go to AskDrBrown.org, A-S-K-D-R Brown.org. Take a moment, go there, send it for our emails, and then this way we'll let you know, here are our latest videos for the week, here are our latest articles, here are our special resource offers for you, AskDrBrown.org, sign up for the emails. All right, let's go to the phones. We're going to switch subjects here before our guests come on at the bottom of the hour.

We'll go over to Ryan in Yukon, Oklahoma. Welcome to the line of fire. Yes, sir. Dr. Brown, I just called several weeks ago, but I appreciate your ministry, and I discovered you about a year ago, and I just really, really enjoy listening to these one and two hour long discussions when you have the debate. I wanted to ask you if you could tell me in a nutshell how perhaps Kenneth E. Hagin's ministry may have influenced your theology one way or another. I know that he has a tremendous impact, he's had tremendous impact on the body of Christ in general, especially the Pentecostal world, the Charismatic world, and I know no single minister is right about everything or does everything perfectly, but what would you say were some takeaways from how Kenneth Hagin might have feared some of your beliefs?

Sure thing. Okay, let me make a few statements upfront so there's perfect clarity on this. I categorically reject the carnal prosperity message, and I reject the notion that we can just create realities with our words. So in other words, some of the aberrant teachings in Word of Faith camp. Having said that, and then I'm going to be as clear as I can, just because I know a call like this where you're just getting information and calling out of genuine interest will then be listened to folks with different theologies, and many of them believe that the entire Word of Faith movement is all just like a cult, like Jehovah's Witnesses, there's no one saved in it, so I don't agree with that. I've met plenty of genuine believers who are Word of Faith, and they would agree with me against the extremes.

They also would reject the extremes. In any case, when I was finishing up my doctoral work late 70s, early 80s, I've often mentioned that as much as I was active in church and active in different types of ministry and our family was living in a holistic way to help refugees and needy people, taking them in our homes, etc., and people at NYU knew me as a strong believer, I really left my first love. And it was during this time that my sister-in-law was miraculously healed at a Kenneth Copeland meeting, so I completely rejected it. I rejected the healing, whatever happened or fine, but I rejected Copeland's teaching, and when she wanted to share it in our church and say how God wants to heal all the time, we really pushed her out over that. And she ended up going to a church, a Word of Faith church, so that to me was as bad as could be, and the people there were praying for me for God to light a fire in my heart again, and God used someone who was a missionary there that had some family in the church, used that person to minister to me. And God used it to kind of reveal how far I had fallen in certain areas in terms of from my first love. That was very weird to me because I rejected his theology.

I don't mean that he wasn't saved, but a lot of his theologies, anyway. So when the Holy Spirit fell dramatically in our church, and people were dramatically touched, and my life was radically changed, and then we had to leave that church, I ended up going to this Word of Faith church, which I didn't want to go to because I differed with some of the theology very strongly. Well, the more I got to know the pastor, I said, okay, he didn't preach certain carnal prosperity things the same way, and he didn't preach that Jesus was demonized in hell and ceased to be God, or, you know, didn't preach any of that stuff. And I had free reign to speak freely where I differed.

You know, I'd be allowed to preach and speak freely where I differed. So it was at that time that I encountered the writings of Hagen, who actually gave warnings. I think he wrote the book The Midas Touch that he gave warnings to the Word of Faith camp in terms of a carnal prosperity message and don't go in this direction.

Tragically, it's been exported all around the world. And I also saw balance when I went to meetings where he taught. I saw balance on a number of issues that I was impressed with. So here, what I would say in terms of a positive influence would be the emphasis that Hagen had of who we are in him to really immerse ourselves in Scripture and to go through Paul's letters and to see what he wrote about who we are in Jesus, and to meditate on that, even to take the prayers that Paul prayed for the believers in Ephesus or Philippi or for Timothy individually, and then to pray those for ourselves. So in Ephesians 1, you know, as he's praying for the eyes of their understanding to be opened, that we may know the Lord better.

So you pray those prayers, biblical prayers for yourself. That, I believe, was a healthy contribution. And his emphasis on God as healer confirmed what I was seeing as I studied Scripture fresh and wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word for healing.

So those were positive reinforcements. And as I said, I forget what point it was that he wrote his Midas Touch book criticizing some of the extremes in the prosperity camp and said, out of all the books he wrote, he never wrote one on prosperity. And then when I went to a couple of camp meetings where he spoke and others spoke, there was theology that I absolutely differed with. I didn't hear any of the extreme heretical stuff, but theology that I absolutely differed with.

But I know that many put him in, he's the father of the Word of Faith movement, and therefore the father of the heresies, and therefore the father of the modern prosperity gospel. As far as I could tell, he did distance himself from a number of those things. As years went on, I wanted to hear more from the leaders in the Word of Faith camp saying we were wrong about this, we were wrong about this, things went in a way we never wanted them to go or intended them to go, but we take responsibility because we got it started.

I wanted to hear that and didn't hear that. At the same time, I remember Kenneth Hagin talking publicly about what happened with his grandson, I think Craig, if I'm correct, I may have the name wrong, this is decades ago. So Kenneth Hagin Jr.'s son, that he had a brain tumor, and Kenneth Hagin Sr. asked Jr., are you absolutely sure if we pray for him that he will be healed?

And Jr. said yes, but what if he's not? So Sr. said that we don't even think twice, we go the medical route and we trust God to help in the midst of it. I remember Hagin saying you never try out your faith on your children, you never experiment with your faith on your children. So there were areas where he was always trying to correct and bring balance. I've been very grieved over the years to see the direction that things ultimately went and the fruit that came from it, but there were definitely positive things that Hagin taught. Again, who we are in Jesus, renewing our mind to that, taking hold of what that means spiritually and then living it out practically, that to me was an important takeaway, and the emphasis on God's goodness. God in his goodness will bring judgment. God in his goodness will act sternly, but he is not schizophrenic.

All that he does for his people ultimately is for eternal good if we cooperate with him. Hey, Ryan, thank you for the call. Be right back with Jonathan Cahn. Something surprising I want to inform you about. And Jonathan said, hey, let's talk about it on the air.

So we will do that as soon as we come back. God bless and stay tuned. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome, friends, to The Line of Fire. I've got two special guests coming on today. First, my good friend Jonathan Cahn. I knew him before.

He was an international best-selling author. I know him after he's been an international best-selling author, and our conversations today are just what they were years ago. We talk, and we get awed in the fear of God, and we get sobered by the state of the nation, and we wonder how much more time there is for mercy. There's an exciting new announcement, and Jonathan wants to share it with each of you today. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on the broadcast. Always great to be with you, Mike.

Always. So before we get to the special announcement, what's your feel as a watchman on the wall, as many of us try to be understanding what's happening in the world and how God's people should respond? How fast is the clock ticking? Does America still have time to repent and get right with God? Well, it is accelerating. I think we all feel that.

There are things that even, you know, even five years ago were hard to imagine would become mainstream right now. As far as, you know, there always is until the Lord tells us, okay, stop praying, you know, for them. But we need to pray. Does it look like? Do I see signs of revival?

I don't. I know there are pockets of revival, but I'm also, you know, there is a pushback, and there are many people feeling more and more so, even those who are not Christian, that America is heading off in a way that they've never seen before. So there is hope, and we have to pray for that. But the culture is racing away from God, and that's one of the things that really this whole thing and the harbingers are warning of, but I've never seen anything. I don't believe any of us has seen anything like what we're seeing now. Yeah, and I agree with your perspective, literally word for word. I've said the same things.

There is a pushback. There are pockets of the Spirit breaking out, but we've never seen things in the way they are now, and it's very, very precarious. How does this tie in with your most recent book, when you were last on, talking about Harbinger II?

How does the current state of affairs tie in with that? Yeah, well, Mike, when I wrote The Harbinger, it was, you know, it's the template, for those who don't know, it's a template of biblical warning, that before a nation's judgment, there are very specific warnings that God gives, and patterns that happen more than what it looks like over and over again in the Bible. And the thing is that they are manifesting in America. That's what stunned me when it began, this whole thing began while I was standing at ground zero, and I saw this tree, and the whole thing began. But I knew at that point it wasn't the end, it was the beginning, because The Harbinger is about the first warning, and the beginning of this period that then heads to judgment or repentance. So I always knew, like, if America did not turn, I always knew there was one day I was going to, there would be a sequel, but I always held off on writing it, really, for eight years. And then when I was in 2019, I'm praying, saying, Lord, what's the next book? And I don't know how you do it, Mike, but I have, I, well, you do so many books. I have, I had three books in my mind. I said, Lord, which is it?

And it was none of them. It was time, it was going to be, you have to do the, the sequel to The Harbinger, because the next year, which is 2020, was going to be a year of great shaking. I had a very strong sense of it. And I, it was going to be the continuation of the, you know, of this, this pattern, this shaking from The Harbinger.

And I had to write, so I began writing it in January 2020. And then two and a half months later came the shakings, which we're still, we're still in. So the pattern is that the warning comes years before a nation's judgment. There's a strike, there's a wake-up call. That, that in The Harbinger begins in 9-11. Then there's a period of years that the nation has to come back. Um, that's the whole hope, that's the point. Or, or head for judgment and greater and greater shakings. And, and the thing is, I believe that's where we are right now. And, and one of the things, Mike, Michael, is that they, you know, in The Harbinger, it wasn't just about the science, you know, of, of, you know, these things are appearing. It's about the nation, what the nation does itself.

The warning is, what ancient Israel did is, when it was warned, it actually got harder, more defiant, and started racing away from God. Well, that's where we are now. So I believe it's much more dangerous, the point we're on now, as you said, precarious.

Got it, got it. So you are moving now, along with your writing, into a new, a new method of getting your message out. Tell us what's coming next.

Yeah, well, it wasn't, and we weren't, I wasn't necessarily planning it, it kind of, Lord, really just, just kind of snowballed it and opened the door. But I believe it's very important, because, because there's going to be, for the first time, I'm going to be releasing, releasing a movie, a motion picture, called The Harbingers of Things to Come. And, you know, there are many people who read books, and many people who don't read books, and there are those who won't read, if they don't know, they won't commit to it. Well, if in this form, it's, it's going to reach many other people who would not be, as well as the people who would. So it's going to, The Harbingers of Things to Come is going to be appearing throughout America, in theaters all across the country. So it's going to be really everywhere. On May 12th, it's a fathom event, so it's like a one-night event.

And they may expand it, because there's been a great demand, but it's going to be May 12th all over. And it's going to be, it's going to be revealing, it's really like going to be a prophetic explosion, that it's taking the viewer on a journey around America to parts where there are keys and signs of where things are, heading to mysterious islands where there are signs embedded. And they'll actually, not just kind of read about The Harbingers, they'll see The Harbingers, and they'll see, we discovered archival footage where they're seeing it, but it just starts with The Harbingers. Most of it is what's happened since The Harbingers, things that have been revealed afterwards, or signs that have come afterwards, where we have been, up to where we are right now, and where things are heading. And one of the things, because it's in visual form, there's something that I held back really for years, that there's a, I can just describe it as a prophetic image or sequence caught on film that I've never really believed in this way, but really warned of everything. And that's going to be there as well. So I believe it's going to be a real kind of explosion of a prophetic thing in theaters, where normally you have Hollywood, you know, I'm praying that God used it, and if it's okay, I'll just say, to find out, I mean, it's going to be that night, May 12th. But it's not just for believers, I'm praying that people bring non-believers, because it's a real wake-up call, and it's kind of hard to argue with it, it's like a trumpet call. So it's going to be a 12, and to find out more, they just have to remember the title, it's just go to the The HarbingersOfThingsToCome.com, it'll tell you where it's playing and how to do it.

It's being sold out where we are, but, you know, it's The HarbingersOfThingsToCome.com. Got it. All right, so I'm assuming, based on your ethic behind this and other things you've put out, that this is going to be done in a high-quality, compelling way.

In other words, if you're bringing friends along, they're not going to think, oh, what kind of shoddy production is this, that it's going to be compelling in terms of video format. Yes, I believe so. The one who did it is actually an Emmy Award-winning guy, you know, a believer. So yeah, he did a wonderful job.

It's, you know, you can see the tribute, go on the web, you can see the trailer of it, you'll get a taste of it, but it's very much so that that's the point, not only for, again, believers, and we all need to be awake, we all need to be ready, we all need to know we need to be prophetic people, but for non-believers, it's something that, you know, I'm inviting family, you know, my family's going, you know, but that non-believers go because this is the time, and I believe sometimes we need something very strong between what's happening with the culture, we need to be like Washington, we need to have trumpet calls, and so this is a very piercing thing, and yeah, he did a great job with it. I mean, and that was, that I had nothing to do with. And for those who falsely and wrongly accuse you of sensationalism, what would you say to them? Well, I don't, you know, the first thing is that that I don't, I don't think you can sensationalize warning of judgment, and I don't think you can sensationalize the signs of the Lord, they are there.

I mean, you can argue with what you want, but they're there. And I also, and you know, you know, we've known each other for many years, you know, and you know me, and I was never even planning on anything like this, it just happened, and it unfolded, and then people said, and I just shared that with Israel, where we are in New Jersey at the congregation, and the people said, this has to go out, this has to go out, and the Lord literally forced it out. I'm talking about starting with a harbinger, but you can't, you know, it's like, it's like, don't, you know, it's like sensationalizing when God judged Egypt.

I mean, how do you do that? Or when Jeremiah's warning of what's coming on Israel, you can't do that, because it's like trying to exaggerate God. Yeah, you know, when I've had you on before, I've had physical books of yours, sometimes I've had an e-manuscript, but I decided to listen to the harbinger on audio. This was probably last year, and as it was getting into things, I had to stop it for a bit, because it's very devastating stuff, you know, it's heavy stuff we're talking about, it's people's lives, it's people who die, and like you say, how can you sensationalize the reality of judgment and the shaking that it brings, and that's what I said at the outset, when you and I talk privately, it's the same thing, the fear of the Lord is there, because we know the intensity of things we're speaking of. I spoke at a church over this weekend, and I've been there for years now, and they've always wanted me to address controversial issues, but I started one message by saying, look, here's what I wrote 10 years ago, and this was based on things I was saying even before that, and it laid out so many of the major crises that we're facing in America today, I said, look, I wrote this 10 years ago, sound of the alarm, will you listen to me now? And that's really what you're doing with this movie, right, saying, look, we warned you, we told you this was coming, here it is, will you now listen to us for the rest? Yes, yeah, and I believe the Lord confirms that, you know, and these are, and most of the things, as you know, I mean, we are, both of us are, you know, we are preaching the Gospel of Messiah regardless, no matter what, day in and day out, that's our calling, and the things that, when God gives signs, I mean, that just is to confirm, these are things that we are, I think any believer who is awake to the Lord is, has the sense of what's happening to America, but the thing is, it's not just a sense, it's real, and God is real, and He's not silent, He does give warnings, they're all there to look at, you know, someone to look, I'll just give a quick example of this, um, and you know, from the harbinger, one of the things is that, that the day after 9-11, this ancient scripture is proclaimed from Capitol Hill, which is the Harvard description, by the way, when I wrote the Harvard description, I had no idea until the end that it actually was proclaimed, I already led to that scripture, and it's the scripture that happened when ancient Israel was warned, and instead of following God, they defied Him, well, Tom Daschle proclaims it, having no idea what he's doing, he's proclaiming Isaiah 9-10, this harbinger scripture from Capitol Hill, but it was prophetic, because at the end of it, he says it, and then at the end of it, his Capitol Hill speech, he says, this is what we will do, and he's referring to Isaiah 9-10, and so, and what we will do at day 9-10 is that we're gonna, we're heartening ourselves, we're going to defy Him, and that's exactly where we are now, and it, if we thought we were falling away from God, you know, around the time of 9-11, we couldn't imagine where we are now, so it's all, it's all unfolding, and it's all going according to this template. All right, last time, where can people go to find out about this movie on May 12th? Yeah, it's, okay, it's, it's The Harbingers, remember the title, The Harbingers of Things to Come, it is, just go, it's May 12th, just go to TheHarbingersOfThingsToCome.com, and you'll find out where, it's everywhere.

All right, friends, go there and bring a friend to the movie. Jonathan, look forward to talking again soon, God bless. Thank you, Mike. God bless. Bye-bye. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. There was an article published by The New York Times just a few days ago. I saw it, and it makes some strong charges against evangelical Christians and pastors who seem to be focusing on the question of election fraud now, almost two years, or a year and a half out from the elections. And the article starts off talking about William Federer. If you don't know William Federer, he is a nationally known speaker, best-selling author, president of AmeriSearch, which publishes books dealing with American history. And he's known for his teaching on that, teaching about Islam and Islamic history. So the article starts off saying this. It's titled, A Crusade to Challenge the 2020 Election, Blessed by Church Leaders. Some evangelical pastors are hosting events dedicated to Trump's election falsehoods and promoting the cause to their congregations. And it opens up talking about this guest, William Federer, speaking at Pastor Mark Cowards Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Well, on the air with me now to respond to this article is the man himself, William Federer. Thanks so much for joining us today. Great to have you back.

Great to be with you. So let me ask the larger question first. How is it that you got involved in this whole question of election fraud in the first place?

Why is this important to you? Well, I ran for Congress three times, 98, 2000, and then in 2004, twice against Dick Gebhardt. He was the House Minority Leader. He was the Nancy Pelosi before Nancy Pelosi.

Okay. He was the number one Democrat in all the United States of America. And we had a big race. We had the president's uncle, Bucky Bush, chair my finance committee.

We raised three and a half million dollars. But on election day, we had people calling our office saying my name was left off the ballot in five wards in the city of St. Louis. And we called them and they said, well, we'll just have the polls be open until midnight, tell everybody to come back and vote again. It's like, okay, how are you going to know if they voted or not? And then the next year on the day of election, there was somebody named Mr. Odom who said his name was left off the registered voter list and he sues to keep the polls open till midnight. And the judge says, okay, keep the polls open.

The next day we found out that this Mr. Odom had died two years earlier. The whole thing was a fraud. Yet the election results stood. And then we had calls coming in from the Jefferson County Board of Elections. All the electricity goes off in the whole building at 10 o'clock at night.

And when they reboot everything, we go from being ahead to behind. And then we had people calling us, my volunteer, Janet McMillan, who was at the board of election, and she's checking off all the precincts and she says they can't find the box of ballots from Guffey Elementary School, which was the largest precinct in the county that I personally stood in front of for eight hours that day. And I'm saying, what? Who's in charge down there? Well, some 80-year-old lady, she went home two hours ago.

Well, who else is in charge? We make a big enough sink to where somebody goes into the basement and pulls it up on a cart in the elevator. The law says that every box of ballots is supposed to be in full view of a Democrat and Republican election judge until it's counted. Here, there's one person bringing it off the elevator, not two people.

And in the middle of all this, my opponent gets on TV and announces that he won. And so we personally experience, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what happened. And so you have Dinesh D'Souza coming out with a movie, Two Thousand Mules, where they have the video cameras of them stuffing ballot boxes. You have another movie called Rig that shows how Zuckerberg was funneling millions of dollars into these, you know, political machines for all this purpose. And for the average, there's two types of people. One believes the government, and the other is skeptical of the government. And because I ran for Congress three times and I personally experienced this, I am skeptical of the government. You know, there's a quote from a Lord Acton.

He was a British statesman in the 1800s. He says, official truth is not actual truth. So anything that's officially being given out, my antennas immediately go up. And so that's sort of a setting for what you're talking about. But you know, a bigger issue is here they are. There are people in America that are not thrilled with Disney pushing its transgendered agenda, wanting to have 50 LGBTQ characters and indoctrinating little innocent children. There are people that are not happy with that. And there are people that are not happy that California has a bill that's a post-birth abortion bill. They want to be able to kill a baby 28 days after birth. And there are people that think that it's wrong to have public schools push a transgendered, even reassignment surgery on children who have not yet been through puberty. And there are people that are having a problem with a biological male, a person with male body parts named Leah Thomas, competing in female athletic events and just getting all the gold medals. There are people that have a hesitancy toward endorsing that, right?

Matter of fact, lots of people. And so when they see us getting involved, wanting to push our mainstream traditional American values, they want to accuse us of what they're guilty of. So they're the ones that are intolerant, yet they're willing to blame their intolerance on us. They're the ones that have infiltrated all these institutions, but they're wanting to blame us for wanting to get involved. And it's actually something called psychological projection. Sigmund Freud coined the term, a psychologist, where rude people deny in themselves a negative quality, but attribute that very quality to someone they don't like. Little kids do it. I'm not the one who started the fight.

You did. And so this has gotten into politics, where you have candidates that do corrupt things, blaming their opponents for doing the exact corrupt thing that they're guilty of. So David Axelrod was the campaign manager for a previous previous president, and he was on NPR radio in April of 2010. And he says, in Chicago politics, we have a tradition where you throw a brick through your own campaign office window and then call a press conference to accuse your opponent. In other words, let's say there's a candidate running for president who's colluding with Russia, giving away a fifth of the U.S. uranium to Russia in exchange for $145 million in exchange for $145 million contribution to her foundation. She wants to pay for a steel dossier to accuse her opponent of colluding with Russia. His name gets smeared with it in the media.

People make a mental connection where there's smoke, there's fire. And if it ever gets pointed back at her, by that time, the water's muddy. The public doesn't know who to trust. And she gets slapped with $113,000 fine. And she pays it and she's off the hook. Where they were wanting to impeach the president. Let's say there's another candidate who's extorting Ukraine, saying, stop investigating my son, Hunter, or I'm going to hold back billions of dollars in U.S. aid. You want to accuse your opponent of extorting Ukraine. You accuse them of the exact crime you're guilty of because then their name gets associated with the media and the public's mind gets confused.

And if it gets pointed back at them by that time, the water's muddy and they get a pass. Yeah, just to jump in, and that was quite an answer, I appreciate it. And we're just about out of time, but New York Times references your 2020 book, Socialism, the Real History from Plato to the Present, How the Deep State Capitalizes on Crises to Consolidate Control. Bill, because our time is short, will that book, Socialism, the Real History from Plato to the President by Bill Frederer, that's F-E-D-E-R-E-R, will that book help our listeners better understand what you're talking about?

Oh, definitely. I mean, I go through how democracies and republics, our efforts to take the power of the king, give it to the people. But what if the king went to the power back? Does he just ask for it?

No. So there's two methods. One, if people get in fear, they will panic and knee-jerk reactions surrender their freedoms for security.

And the second is free stuff. You get people dependent on the state and they incrementally give up their freedom in exchange for the state, and the state usurps power and gets in control of their life. And so when you read this through history, whether it's Machiavelli and Hegel and Karl Marx and Saul Linsky, their attitude is you create or capitalize on a crisis to consolidate control. And anyway, I spell it all out in the book. I go through the French Revolution. I go through, you know, the Nazis. I go through, you know, Stalin's Soviet Union, what happened in Cuba, Venezuela, all these different places.

But it pulls away, like the Wizard of Oz, pulls away the curtain and you get to see that socialism is a bait and switch for dictatorship. Got it. Hey, thank you for joining with us and sharing your side of the story that our listeners need to hear. Much appreciated. Thanks so much. Thank you. All right. All right, friends, we are virtually out of time.

I just want to say this last thing. My official position about election fraud has been I do not know what happened. I have heard very powerful arguments for it, against it. The Dinesh D'Souza movie coming out, we're going to have someone who's really really delved into this a lot talking about it on Monday, God willing. So it's going to be an eye opening broadcast and we'll take calls as well. My own position has been there has been massive prayer for the election and that if Joe Biden ended up in president by hook or crook or honest results, then God put him there, whether it's to judge us or to bless us.

I see more judgment than blessing in it, but either way, I recognize him as our president. And my position has always been if there's been fraud, it will come out. Now, I was hoping it would come out through the courts if it was there. Perhaps it will come out through this documentary or other ways. That's not my focus.

It's not the main thing that we talk about. However, can we all agree that what we want is truth and what we want is fair elections? Can we all agree on that? That the truth needs to come out? If we've already gotten the truth, let it be reinforced. If there's more that needs to come out, whatever the consequences, let it be. Can we all agree on that regardless of our political backgrounds? Lord, let all the truth about the 2020 elections come out and give us fair and just elections for the future. Can we agree on that? Forward we go. Another program powered by the Truth Network.