Focus on the Middle East with Joel Rosenberg

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. A few more practical thoughts about our response to the pandemic, and then, we'll get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, friends, to the Line of Fire broadcast.

This is Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. At the bottom of the hour, I'm going to be speaking with best-selling author and Middle East expert, Joel Rosenberg, about his new book, Enemies and Allies. It's going to be a fascinating conversation, I assure you of that. Before we get there, though, I want to conclude some things we've been talking about for a couple of weeks now regarding our personal responses to the pandemic, about choices that we make and that we have to make that are coming away on a regular basis.

I want to do that as well, and I want to ask you a question. Here's the number to call, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-87884. What counsel would you give to someone, a Christian, who has concerns about the vaccine simply based on what they've read, studied, heard, but their job requires them to get the vaccine? If they don't get the vaccine, they lose their job. What counsel do you have for them? Or when you were faced with a similar choice and you had questions about the vaccine, what was your decision?

866-34-TRUTH. Another colleague of mine has really wrestled with this for some time when he had no way out in the state in which he lived. He either had to get the vaccine or lose his job as an educator. He chose to get the vaccine and ask God for mercy and grace if he had put anything negative or destructive in his body. Others are losing their jobs rather than doing that, and others, of course, are wholeheartedly getting vaccinated, believing it's good, safe, and the best thing to do. So, if you've been faced with that, what did you do?

How did you decide? If you're a pastor and people are coming to you for counsel, what has been your counsel to them? This woman that wrote to me earlier, I haven't been able to respond yet, but who wrote earlier asking for counsel, said her church has been standing with her not to get vaccinated. Well, if that's the case then, I don't know if the church has 10,000 people or 10 people, but if that's the case, will they stand with her financially to help her while she looks for other work? I mean, that would be a fair question, right?

Or how widely can you do that with membership and so on and so forth? So, these are practical questions that we are facing. Yesterday, we talked about Romans 14 and how to apply the principles of Romans 14 in terms of disputable matters, because these are not just matters of health and safety. These are also faith matters.

These are also questions about the temple of the Holy Spirit. These are questions about loving our neighbor. So, last night I posted a rephrased Romans 14, my application of Romans 14 to the question of masks and vaccines, not mandates, but personal choices. And here's what's interesting. I didn't look through all the comments by any means. I did scroll through some of the comments, and overwhelmingly, there's been affirmation, 1.2 thousand likes for the post so far on Facebook, which in the past was nothing, but since our flow has been greatly restricted by Facebook, that's a positive affirmation. And I glanced at responses, many in agreement and thanking me for laying this out. But the fascinating thing was you had some on each side, the pro-mask, anti-mask, pro-vaccine, anti-vaccine, post. It's not a disputable matter. It's black and white.

There's only one right choice here. Well, that's just what Paul was dealing with in Romans 14 with dietary laws and different days of worship, that those that were doing them were each convinced there's only one right way, and therefore our way is right and the other way is wrong. So, it's fascinating that people are unable to see that. I saw one gentleman comment that, basically, I've got no business commenting on this at all unless I'm qualified medically, academically, whatever. And I was wondering, was that person qualified?

Do they have the right to tell me not to talk? But all I'm doing is seeking to apply biblical principles. That I can do. That I'm qualified to do by God's grace. So, here's my application of Romans 14. Accept the one whose faith is weak without quarreling over disputable matters, such as wearing masks or getting vaccinated. Now, I'm not implying there that the one wearing the mask is weak or the one not wearing the mask is weak, or the one vaccinated is weak, or the one not vaccinated is weak.

Simply just try and apply Paul's principles. The one who was vaccinated must not treat with contempt the one who was not vaccinated. The one who was not vaccinated must not judge the one who was vaccinated, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servant, stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. One person considers it prudent and loving to wear a mask at church gatherings.

Another considers it restrictive, unhealthy, and unwise. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever wears a mask does so to the Lord, or does not wear a mask does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord for this very reason.

Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Why do you treat them with contempt? We will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written, surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before me, every tongue will acknowledge God. So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another.

Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of masks and vaccines. So, whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself but what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned, meaning self-condemned, if they act in doubt, because their actions are not from faith and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

That's my practical application of Romans 14, much of it verbatim, just reading the text. And here's the deal, we're not talking about fundamental doctrinal issues. We're not talking about matters of eternal salvation.

We're not talking about something that will damn you to hell or open the door of heaven. We're not talking about issues like this. These are disputable matters and they are not merely political issues, they are not merely scientific and medical issues, they are also personal faith issues.

Are they not? Here, why are so many people seeking religious exemptions to the vaccinations if it's not a faith issue, if it's not a religious issue? Now, one hospital in Arkansas said, okay, we accept your religious exemption if you are saying that some of the vaccines can be traced back to fetal cells from aborted babies and therefore somewhere along the chain of development and aborted babies parts were used in the developing of the vaccine based on which you cannot in good conscience get vaccinated.

They said that's fine, we just need you to sign off a form saying that you also do not take Tylenol or Benadryl or Sudafed, Ibuprofen, I don't remember everything on the list. I think there were something like 30 well-known commonly used medicines, all of which in their development, according to this report, according to this hospital, used fetal cells somewhere along the way from aborted babies. And then others have said, well, if you think that ivermectin is a good cure, you know, Joe Rogan, obviously the famous podcaster and famous for a bunch of other things, Joe Rogan got hit with COVID, used ivermectin, the liberal media went after him, you're using horse medication, what are you doing? It's veterinary medicine.

What are you talking about? This is Nobel Prize winning research going back five, six years, it was prescribed by my doctor, even challenging, you know, Rolling Stone and CNN and others that claimed that he was using horse medicine. Well, some have argued that ivermectin and other hydrochloroquine, that these also go back in their development with fetal cells from aborted babies, etc.

I'm no scientific expert, I'm simply reporting what is commonly known and out there. But the point is, if you say, I have a religious objection to this, I have a religious objection about putting certain things into my body, which I believe to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. Okay, so this, this for many, is a faith issue. Now, for some, it's a purely medical issue, purely scientific issue. For some, the whole issue is not the vaccines or the masks, but the government, the mandate. So we, most all of us agree that the government has overreached, most all of us agree that things have pushed too far in this regard, and, and most of us feel confident that once the Biden mandate is articulated, everything is put out in writing by OSHA, all of the demands of it are laid out, then instantly the lawsuits from at least 20 states will push back against this. And attorney Joe and Franco, who is very, very sober-minded, and not one given to wild speculation, when he's saying, what, 99% certainty that the Supreme Court will overthrow the mandate, we're in large-scale agreement on this as liberty-loving followers of Jesus and as liberty-loving American citizens.

We're not talking about the mandate, we're talking about personal choices. Ultimately, and I want to come back here and then switch, switch to a related but different subject in a moment about difference between faith and fear. Ultimately, you are responsible for the decisions you make before God as they affect your life and potentially those around you. Dr. James White determined he was not going to be going on flights, my, my dear friend and colleague James White, he was not going to be flying, wearing a mask, feeling that that was an unhealthy thing for him for him to do, that the mask, that environment and wearing the mask would just potentially be dangerous or negative to his health.

But he still committed to travel and minister in different settings, so he got an RV, started to make a lifestyle change, got an RV, and that's how he's going to be traveling around and speaking and ministering. So he made that choice based on his look at science, his look at the data, what he felt was safe and was not, and this was his way of responding to what he felt was government overreach as well. Ultimately, you prayerfully make decisions before the Lord, thinking of yourself, thinking of your family, thinking of the will of God, thinking of others, your co-workers, friends, co-members of your congregation, and you make that prayerful decision, this is what we would call a disputable matter.

There are arguments on different sides. Do not judge one another spiritually over these decisions that you make. I want to urge that on you. Do not judge one another spiritually about the prayerful decisions that you make in this regard. Let each one make this decision before God.

You say, I love them, but their decision affects me. Okay. We'll address that on the other side of the break. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining me today on the Line of Fire. A few more thoughts about our response to the pandemic as we've talked about it more in the last week or two because of the mandates and things that people are facing day and night in the world in which they live. Now, more travel issues, travel restrictions. I would have been in Germany, let's see, this coming weekend, I would have been in Germany for a major dedication of a new church building with my friend Yesupadam after years of here's an Indian doing missions work in Germany with incredible results and fruit. Would have been over there. Initially, I could travel with certain requirements, then those requirements changed because I didn't meet those requirements and because they now had America on the high risk list and potentially I would have had to have been quarantined for days when getting there.

I would have had to have been quarantined longer than I was staying just coming into the country. So, I had to postpone that trip. These are things we're facing. What do you do in school? What do you do when there's pressure on you as a teacher, as a student? How do we respond?

So, I just want to say this last thing about how to respond and then talk about the difference between faith and fear and look at some interesting election results, California and Canada. So, the argument could be made, all right, if you choose to eat pork and not eat pork, that's between you, God, and your own body, right? You're not imposing that on anyone else. Now, you might say if you eat something unhealthy, it will potentially shorten your lifespan and that affects others, but it doesn't affect others in terms of infecting them. In other words, they're not going to get your heart disease if you ate pork day and night. So, the argument would be if I choose not to wear a mask around others, then I am therefore potentially endangering them, right? The other issue is, though, that people push back and say, well, you're wearing a mask is psychologically damaging to others or it puts pressure on others to wear a mask and we've determined that that's unhealthy or that we have learned that there are other issues with that.

You're vaccinated, you think, okay, you're safe now, but you might be spreading it even more without even knowing it. So, you go around in circles in terms of if my decision is affecting you and your decision is affecting me and in community life, just when it came to dietary laws and observance of days and things, these were issues that were very hot, very intense, in a different level. I just urge once again, don't judge the person. This is very clear in the principle of Romans 14. If someone in a disputable matter makes a prayerful decision before the Lord to honor the Lord, don't judge them for it. If a person says, I really feel it's the will of God that I'm vaccinated, that this is a God-given thing, that the science, the wisdom that he's given to people to develop these things, we should take advantage of it.

It's a lifesaver. I feel the Lord wants me to do it for my health, the health of others. God bless you. I'm not going to judge you. You don't have enough faith. That's your problem.

You don't have enough faith. I remember early on in COVID in Virginia law, you couldn't have gatherings of more than 10 people and one pastor gathered and said, we're not afraid of COVID here. God is bigger than COVID.

Look around, we got more than 10 people here. Not long after that, he had died, according to all reports, because of COVID. And they couldn't have the funeral immediately because so many of his family members were sick with COVID. And his daughter came out afterwards and said, please take this seriously.

We made a big mistake here. So, I mean, I've seen that. I've seen the people that, yeah, you got no faith, what's the matter with you? And then they're dead, as far as we know from COVID.

And on the other hand, we've got a whole society out now bashing those, which is quite a number of Americans, quite a large number, what a hundred million plus, who have not been vaccinated, bashing them as super spreaders and unloving and so on. We've got no business doing that as followers of Jesus. That I can say with clarity. That I can say with decisiveness. As for the woman that called or that emailed, sent a note asking what my counsel was for her. Anyone in that situation, if you're going to lose your job, that's not my decision to make for you.

It really isn't. You have to do the research as she's done, make a prayerful decision, ask God for wisdom. If you feel, hey, I'm going to be vaccinated and trust God that if there's anything negative, my body won't react to it. That's one aspect of trust. Unless you're convinced that you're putting poison in your body or potential poison, then you don't do that. You don't willfully ingest poison or something destructive and pray that it won't hurt. It's one thing if you drink something and someone tries to poison you, you didn't know it. You know the Mark 16, long ending of Mark principle, that if you drink any deadly thing, it won't hurt you.

But you don't willfully drink rat poison. Say, well, praise the Lord. He's going to protect me. On the other hand, it could be faith to say, well, God's my provider and there are other jobs out there and I can live on less. And either way, I'm going to trust God for health and I'm going to trust God to preserve me doing what I know how to do and go from there. So it's a decision that must be made. I would encourage, though, if a church is actively encouraging people not to get vaccinated and as a result of that, those people lose their jobs, then I would encourage that church to do its best to stand with those people, to encourage others in the congregation, to help out while that person diligently looks for new work.

Okay, last point as we talk about faith and fear. And then we're going to go to the phones and bring in my special guest, Joel Rosenberg, to talk about his Enemies and Allies book. It was very interesting to see the results of the recall in California. Governor Newsom won his battle not to be recalled and replaced by another candidate by a little higher percentage than he was actually elected. Now, that was frankly a surprise to me.

Why? Because what I'm hearing from California is people who've had it with the double standards there, who've had it with the restrictions, who've had it with, you know, court cases where the courts are now siding consistently, say, with churches against Governor Newsom because of restrictive regulations. And, you know, all the restrictive things, kids and school and so on and so forth, and then coupled with the high cost of living and other issues that have driven whole major companies out of California. And it's true that 61% of the voters, according to exit polls, said that the cost of living was unmanageable. And yes, it's true that there was a very strong Democrat turnout. Interestingly, though, the recall went in Newsom's favor, and the number one issue with people was the pandemic. And the great majority of the people favored the way Governor Newsom had handled things and favored the requirement for kids to wear masks at school, et cetera.

Now, what would produce this? And then in Canada, Prime Minister Trudeau with elections there, and his Liberal Party remains in power, and Canada's crackdowns are much more severe across the country as a whole with COVID than in America. And there are protests on the street and he's being cursed to his face for his restrictions and things like that, and yet remains in power, which would obviously mean that the majority of the people, pandemic being so high on the list of issues, that the majority of the people are standing with him in his handling of the pandemic.

So what does that tell you? Why would people embrace these restrictions? Why would people be so positive on things that are so life restricting, life inhibiting, freedom restricting?

Why? To me, there is one answer, fear. They genuinely fear that without these things, that people will be dropping dead in the streets, so to say. In other words, that the pandemic would be much more severe, that there'd be many, many more sick people, that the hospitals would be completely overloaded, that there'd be many more people dying, and that this is the good and right thing to do. Otherwise, why on earth would you accept so many restrictions? It would indicate to me also that the voices that I'm hearing from day and night who have had it, who are pushing back, who are thinking of getting out of Canada because things are so restrictive, moving to America, that those that are so upset in California, that they do not represent the majority.

Otherwise, Trudeau would have been voted out, and Newsom would have been recalled. I've got an article, let's just see, hang on. I wrote it earlier today before radio. Let's see if it's up on our website yet.

Maybe a little quick to get up, but sometimes to get it up. Here it is. It's there.

It's there on my website. So go to AskDrBrown.org, AskDrBrown.org, and check out my new article, Analyzing the Election Results in California and Canada, and the Attitude of Faith vs. Fear. By the way, when people say, you can't trust the votes, I don't trust any votes, the votes went in California the way all the different polls were indicating they would go right up to the vote. So for those saying the whole thing was stolen there, the votes were in accordance with the polls. The votes were in accordance with the polls.

There was no major shock there. It got really close for a while, but then the days leading up, whatever, it was attacks on Larry Elder, it was demonizing of Republicans, it was fear tactics, whatever it was, the votes ended up being very similar to what the polling said. So without looking at data beyond that, it would seem to have gone the way it was expected. But as I note in this article, Twitter poll that I did on September 20th, look at this. When I asked, what's your current state of mind? Are you fearful, frustrated, or angry, excited about what God is doing, or something else? Please explain.

Look at this. Only 7.8% of those responding to my Twitter poll said they were fearful, followed by 24.9% who said they were frustrated or angry. 28.9% responded with something else, and look at this, 38.4%, by far the strongest response, said they were excited about what God was doing. So I'm seeing, among many people who are in our similar camp as conservative Jesus followers, Bible believers, I'm seeing a spirit of faith rising, and that faith is going to drive out fear. We'll be right back with Joe Roesenberg. Thanks so much for joining us on The Line of Fire. This is Michael Brown. Although it's Wednesday, it's not our Thoroughly Jewish Thursday focus, this was the slot where we could get in New York Times best-selling author Joe Roesenberg to talk about his brand new book, Enemies and Allies, eye-opening, behind-the-scenes information, personal interviews with some of the most significant world leaders in and around the Middle East. And Joel, I've got to be candid with you, reading this book on a certain level almost felt like one of your novels, because it's so crazy to see the doors that God's opened up for you. Hey Michael, it's great to be with you, and that's true.

In many ways it feels like I've stepped into one of my own political thrillers, okay? And you know, it's the power of prayer. I've been praying as an Israeli citizen for my neighbors, praying for the people of Jordan, the leaders of Jordan, the people of Egypt, the leaders of Egypt, and so on and so forth through the region. And I even asked, Lord, I would really love to meet these leaders and understand them, because they seem to be going in a very different direction, very positive, from what I've known and read about for the last 75 years of Arab-Israeli relation, what is happening, and God opened some crazy, wonderful, fascinating doors. Now I'm just going to tell you this one bit of background information. I messaged you privately about it, but I want to say for everyone to hear, I had you on a few months back when your latest novel had come out, and I thought, you know what, I do sometimes long exercising and I need something just to keep my attention or distract me, so I'm going to download that novel. I thought, you know, let me start at the beginning of the series. Well, I got completely engrossed. I've gone through, I think, six of your books on audio since then, seriously.

And I mean, I have guests on all the time, right? So obviously, I can't be constantly doing this, but what I also felt like the last war during, you know, with Hamas and Gaza, you know, I feel like I'm reading the news in the novel. So this really got me interested. I'm well through your book now on audio, Enemies and Allies. So tell us what's unique about this book.

It's not just you're offering your opinions as someone that's been involved, a follower of Jesus, Jewish follower of Jesus, now a Jewish American Israeli citizen, but what would you say makes this book somewhat unique? Well, Michael, the core of this book is looking at the Middle East 20 years after 9-11, right? We're trying to assess who are our enemies today. 20 years ago, it was Al-Qaeda, but today, it's clearly the regime in Iran and how close they are to nuclear weapons.

So that's one trend line. The radical Islamists seem to be more emboldened than ever, and Iran is so dangerously close, not just from acquiring nuclear weapons, but what do they really want? As I described in Enemies and Allies, they want to bring about a second Holocaust, you know, destroy Israel, wipe her off the map, because Israel, in their view, is the little Satan. But what they really want to do is create a nuclear 9-11 in the United States, where they're not just taking out American towers, but American cities.

That's one trend line. The other trend line, which is entirely 180 degrees opposite, is that Arabs want to make peace with Israel. And so that's an interesting story to tell, but what makes Enemies and Allies unique, and literally there's not a single book on the market like this, is I get to sit down with the kings and the crown princes, the presidents and the prime ministers in the Arab world, at the highest possible levels, and Israel, and go into the Oval Office and take my readers with me as we have on-the-record conversations. How do they see the threat from Iran? How do they see the threat in the region, and why are their attitudes changing?

Why are they moving towards peace with Israel? And far more important than what I think is my opportunity that God gave me to hear what these leaders think, from Netanyahu to Mohammed bin Salman, arguably the most controversial ally that the United States has in the Middle East. He, of course, is the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. Yeah, so you gave the first-hand discussion.

It must have been fascinating. I can't imagine, I try to imagine, being in some of these palaces and getting behind the scenes tours in the Muslim world, places where many of us would never get to step foot. So in your view, someone like King Abdullah of Jordan, is he masquerading the real intent of Islam to destroy and subjugate the world, and presenting himself as a man of peace and a moderate just to win outsiders like you, or from sitting with him and being in Jordan? Do you think he's the real deal? I believe King Abdullah is the real deal, and you know, Jesus tells us how to assess people.

You know them by their fruits, okay? So King Abdullah does give some wonderful speeches that are very moderate, but that's not as interesting to me as what he's actually doing. King Abdullah, as I described in several chapters in the book, I think is the most moderate of the Arab allies, and has been the most faithful for the longest period of time, right? He is a former special forces commander in Jordan, and he has been actively moving his forces into battle, like, with ISIS, with al-Qaeda, with radical Islamists, King Abdullah of Jordan protects the Christians. Christians are probably safer in Jordan than any Arab Muslim country in the world. He once gave an entire swath of land to create a national park for the churches of Jordan, right along the Jordan River, to celebrate and honor the baptismal fight of Jesus.

Like, that's pretty amazing. And yet his people, the Jordanian people, are not as moderate as he is, and so he navigates being very moderate and very friendly towards Christians and Jews and Israel, and maintaining a peace treaty with Israel, even though the Jordanian people are pretty much moving the other direction. They don't want a war with Israel, but they are not happy with the peace treaty. All right, somehow we just lost Joel there, so let's get him back on the line, find out what happened. I'm sure our team will reconnect.

These things do happen with phones. So having been in the book right now, Enemies and Allies, I can tell you it's a fascinating read. Like I said, it reads like one of the Joe Rosenberg novels, because they are contemporary historical novels. In other words, they will bring in real players, they will bring in real historical events, they will bring in real conflicts and crises within the Middle East, and then play out all kinds of different scenarios. And many times, scenarios that is written about actually come to pass. And if they're not actually coming to pass, they're very, very close to historical reality or contemporary reality.

So yeah, good to reconnect with you, Joel. So you were saying that King Abdullah has to navigate between himself being more moderate than the people as a whole, many of whom are not happy with the Israeli peace treaty. Let's switch over to another player, again, that you get to meet and speak with face-to-face, the President of Egypt, President al-Sisi. To go back a little while, did the Obama administration make a mistake in embracing Mohamed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood? Oh, it was a tragic and terrible mistake, an inexcusable mistake for President Obama and then Vice President Biden to have embraced the Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamic terrorist organization that is really the original radical Islamic terrorist organization in the Middle East, started in Egypt in the early 1920s. And when Mohamed Morsi came to power, he was a train wreck. And Christians were in danger, and moderate Muslims were in danger, and the U.S.-Egyptian alliance was in danger, and the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty was in danger.

And I describe this in detail in the book. But how many countries can you think of where Arab Muslims rise up and remove a terrorist regime from power? But this is exactly what Abdel Fassa al-Sisi did, a devout Muslim, so devout that he was the defense minister in the Morsi government, because Morsi, the head of the Muslim Brotherhood, was so convinced that if you're that devout of a Muslim, you must be part of the Muslim Brotherhood.

But he wasn't. And when he saw what was happening, he and his forces moved and liberated a hundred million Egyptians from the reign of terror of the Brotherhood. And then, as I describe in Enemies and Allies, al-Sisi went on to rebuild at government expense every church that had been damaged or destroyed or burned down by the Brotherhood, and even built the largest church in the history of the Middle East, and gave it as a gift to the Egyptian Christians on Christmas Eve. I was there at his request to witness this, really quite extraordinary, and you will not hear this in the media because they're just not interested. Now, I had read with great interest the transcript of his speech a few years back, calling for reform in Islam as a devout Muslim, and surrounded by leaders from al-Azhar University, a hundred thousand students from the Harvard of Egypt, as you say, and thousand-year-old school surrounded by leading clerics and speaking out against terrorism. I thought that's a courageous thing to do.

I wonder what the men on the platform are thinking. But you in Enemies and Allies, Joel, you talk about actual reforms that are being carried out, even firing with 55,000 Muslim clerics in one year for being radical, so you see some teeth to what he's trying to do. Yeah, in many ways, President el-Sisi in Egypt is the next in line after King Abdullah, right, not just speaking in a moderate way, and in that speech, as you mentioned, it was the most extraordinary speech I've ever heard. He literally told the leaders of the Islamic academia, if you don't reform what you're doing, you're going to face the judgment of Allah in hell.

I'm like, oh my gosh, who is this guy? I want to meet him. And you'll see the reforms that he's making, and I document them in great detail.

I've met with President el-Sisi five times now. Look, I have criticisms of him also, and you'll see that in the book. Overreaching on putting too many people in jail, but I understand why he's doing it. I still think he's doing too much. He feels like he's in America 1860 in the Civil War, and of course, President Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and put reporters in prison and so forth, because the highest objective at that point was save the union. If you don't save the state, you can't have individual freedom. I think the objective is correct.

I think he's overdoing it, but overall, I think Sisi is the greatest thing that has happened to Egypt in Moses. Amazing. All right, stay right there, Joel. I know you've got a strict cut off about four and a half minutes from now. I've got one more question for you on the other side of the break. The new book by Joel Rosenberg, by Joel Rosenberg, nonfiction, enemies, and allies. We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us, friends. Just found out to my delight that Joel can stay with us right to the top of the hour here. So I've got a bunch more questions for him. His book, Enemies and Allies, talks about face-to-face meetings with President Trump, Mike Pence, former Vice President Mike Pence, with Prime Minister Netanyahu, former Prime Minister... I should say former President Trump, lest you think I'm in conspiracy theory here.

But anyway, okay, back to you, Joel. There's a funny story you tell where you were invited to hear Prime Minister Netanyahu in the States, and he's giving a speech, and you've got a guy next to you wanting to talk to you during the speech. Just tell us the story.

It is a funny story I try to tell in Enemies and Allies. So Prime Minister Netanyahu came to Washington to address a joint session of Congress, and really to take on directly, respectfully but directly, his view that President Obama and Vice President Biden's Iran nuclear deal was very, very dangerous for Israel and for the United States and for our Arab allies. And he was really giving quite a stem winder of a speech. And I was sitting in the gallery, and this guy who I did not know kept tapping me, like jabbing me in the ribs during the speech. He goes, this is amazing. This speech is so fascinating.

The stakes are so high in this showdown with Iran. It feels like one of Joel Rosenberg's novels. Have you ever heard of him?

Doesn't it seem like that? And I'm like, shh, we'll talk about it later. And a few minutes later, he would do it again. And he had no idea who I was. And I was mortified that Netanyahu, who I actually worked for 20-some years ago, would stop in the middle of the speech on live television and say, are you two done?

I can wait. Oh, my gosh. Did you ever get to talk to the guy afterwards and tell him that you were he? He actually, at the end of the speech, I said, well, thank you. It was great to meet you. And he looked at me because he hadn't really been looking at me eye to eye. Oh, my gosh.

I'm so embarrassed. You're Joel Rosenberg. So anyway, that was that was funny.

All right. So you get to meet with the man known as MBS, as you say, the most enigmatic leader that you've dealt with in terms of the Middle East. So even to be in a setting like that or to go into Saudi Arabia in general, if someone did that as an Israeli citizen, as a Jew, as a follower of Jesus, those were a few strikes against you.

What was it like to to be in this kind of environment? Well, yeah, it was fascinating. And a senior Israeli official told me when I got back to Israel, where we live, he said, Joel, do you realize that you're the only Israeli citizen who isn't, you know, a senior, you know, intelligence official who's ever met the crown prince of Saudi Arabia? And in your case, Joel, you were on the front page of every paper in Saudi Arabia in doing it.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And I told the crown prince, well, first of all, we were also the first Christian delegation in the history of the 300 years that the Saud family has controlled so much of the Arabian Peninsula that had ever been invited into the palace. The Saud family just literally does not meet with Christian leaders and certainly not in their home until their invitation to me. And I said to the crown prince, listen, I'm very honored. We have a lot of things we want to talk about, including why they're not a single church, you know, on Saudi territory.

We want that to change and we want to talk to you about these issues. But let me start by saying thank you for inviting me, a dual US Israeli citizen. You could have thrown a dart out the window in America and chosen one of the other 60 million evangelicals who aren't Zionists, who aren't Israeli citizens, who don't have two sons who served in the Israeli army to come and visit you.

But thank you. And in some small way, I got to say, Michael, it's part of the signaling that they are actually considering should they and when and when should they make peace with Israel? Yeah, the whole scenario is extraordinary, going back to President Trump and the Abraham Accords and how you can do that with radical Islam or Islam in general. Can Islam accept Israel in what was previously Muslim land?

I mean, all the theological issues with it. But yet you're very careful to draw a clear line of distinction between, say, King Abdullah in Jordan and the Islam of Tehran, of Iran, and you call it apocalyptic Islam. So what's the difference between radical Islam in general, as dangerous as that is, and apocalyptic Islam? Well, the short version would be I'm not concerned about 1.8 billion Muslims. They're not the vast, vast majority are not dangerous. They're not violent. Obviously, I disagree with them theologically, you know, they need the gospel and they need to understand the divinity of Christ, not see him merely as a prophet.

So obviously, theologically, we disagree. But then there's the radical Islamists. And this is the group that says that we want to use violence, we believe in violence to achieve our religious and political objective. So that's al Qaeda. That's the Taliban. That's Hamas. That's, you know, Islamic Jihad. That's the Muslim Brotherhood.

That's bad, right? But it's not as bad even as apocalyptic Islamism. And that's what's held by the Supreme Leader of Iran and his inner circle, where they believe that they want to commit genocide against the epicenter of Judaism, Israel, and the epicenter of Christendom, the United States.

And in so doing, they will usher in the end of days, and the global Islamic caliphate or kingdom run by their so-called Savior and Messiah. So that is what's so dangerous. And that's what we're up against in Iran.

This is why it's interesting. Even the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia understands it. I'm not sure Biden does. And the Crown Prince said to me on the record that he regards the Supreme Leader of Iran as, quote, the new Hitler, unquote. Suddenly, the Saudis are sounding a lot more like Netanyahu and the Israelis. And President Biden is surrendering to the Taliban and undermining any confidence that people in the Middle East have that he'll know how to deal with Tehran. Yeah, even some of the Biden administration calling for the Taliban to be inclusive in their government leadership and to incorporate women.

Obviously, they are missing the ideologies that they're dealing with by a wide, wide margin. So, Joel, again, friends, get the book Enemies and Allies to get all the details, to get all the interviews, some of the backstories, fascinating personal anecdotes, some of the very touching as well, the one with your son and the note with the King of Jordan. I'll let readers find out about that. Go ahead.

One minute. There's one more anecdote. OK, so I had lunch with Vice President Mike Pence at one point to brief him on the nuances of these delegations that I was leading to meet with all these Arab leaders. And the Trump administration was forming their Middle East peace strategy, which of course became enormously successful. But Pence and I have been longtime friends and I describe this in the book. But at the end of our lunch, he said, have you ever met the president? I said, you know, Mr. Vice President, you know, I was a never Trumper in 16.

You know, obviously I've changed my views, but no. So he takes me into the Oval Office and Trump says, great, let's sit down. Let's talk.

I want to hear your story. And then and then as Pence is introducing me, President Trump gets very quizzical and he says, wait, you're saying that Joel is an evangelical? Is that what you're saying, Mike? He says that Pence and the vice president says, yes, Mr. President. And Trump turns to me, he says, Joel, you're an evangelical? I said, yes, Mr. President. He says, but your name is Rosenberg. Isn't that Jewish?

And I said, yes, Mr. President. My father's side is Jewish and my mom's not. And I'm an Israeli dual U.S. citizen. And just wait, wait, wait, I don't understand. How can you be Jewish and believe in Jesus? Now, Mike, I have never, I've never been in the Oval Office till that point. And I'm saying to the Lord at that moment, you're telling me, Lord, that the first substantive conversation I've ever had in this room is about being Jewish and believing in Jesus and explaining it to the president of the United States.

Get out. I mean, come on. I tell that story in the book and God has got a sense of humor, doesn't he? Yeah. And what's also amazing to me is that up to that point, President Trump didn't know that, didn't, you know, still hadn't understood, gotten that, OK, if I get the one minute version, how is it that Saudi Arabia could potentially even countenance peace with Israel, given that the Jews now occupy what was historic Muslim land? What justification can they come up with? Again, full story in the book, but short story here.

Yeah. So the short version is the threat from Iran is fundamentally transforming every Arab leader's view of who is my friend and who is my foe. For 75 years, the Saudis saw Israel, Zionists, Jews as the enemy. And now they're like, wait a minute. I don't think that's true. I think they're our friends.

And I think we need to trend towards them. Iran is the existential threat and the Israelis get it. And we're not going to agree on Zionism, but maybe we ought to work closely together. That is a fascinating story the media is not telling you. And this book is the only one that does. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

That's that's the way it's working out. And they realize the level of intentions, the potential murderous intentions, the potential worldwide war intentions of the leaders in in Iran. So friends, the book, the new book by Joe Rosenberg, Enemies and Allies. If you haven't read his novels, just pick any one of them and start there. You'll be blown away.

You'll be pulled in like I have been. Then go to his website, Joel Rosenberg dot com. You can find out about great news services, all Israel news, all Arab news.

I go there regularly to get updates as well. So, Joel, much success to you. Thanks for doing what you're doing, being who you are. I appreciate it. Great to be with you. Thank you so much.

My joy. All right, friends, we are out of time. Joel Rosenberg, Enemies and Allies. And I kid you not, I think I've listened to at least six of his novels in the last few months. I just got drawn in. So I've got a long drive. If I'm done praying, flip that in or on the treadmill or rowing. So check these out. Another program powered by the Truth Network.