Hi, this is Roy Jones with ManTalk Radio Podcast. Our mission is to break down the walls of race and denomination. Your chosen Truth Radio Broadcast will be starting in just a few seconds. Thank you.
This is the Truth Network. We want to pause a moment here to thank one of our program supporters and that's High Point Financial Design over in High Point, North Carolina. Just like to say thank you to our friend Ronnie Kleinert and his son Brad Kleinert and all of the folks at High Point Financial Design for their positive feedback and encouragement of our ministry. We appreciate High Point Financial Design and their special focus on intentional planning and abundant living. Continued blessings both from and to High Point Financial Design and If Not For God with Mike Zwick. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host Mike Zwick. All right, If Not For God with Mike Zwick today. I'm so excited to be back with you.
It is January and the weather is finally getting cooler, so in other words it feels normal after our nice spring weather in the middle of winter, but glad to be back with you today. And I wanted to start off with, it was 2 Corinthians 12 and it's starting in verse 1. It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago, whether in the body I do not know or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows. Such a one was caught up to the third heaven and I know such a man whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows how he was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such a one I will boast, yet of myself I will not boast except in my infirmities.
Though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool for I will speak the truth, but I refrain lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And so what I've seen is I've seen a lot of people who have taken that particular passage in the Bible and what they say is that if anybody has had an experience with God, and we hear many of these experiences today, whether it's 23 Minutes in Hell, the story of Bill Wiese, or whether it's, I'm sure you've heard of Ian McCormick, there was a movie that came out called The Perfect Wave, and there were many other experiences where people have had where they died and when they died, I mean, the doctor said, hey, you were dead on the table for five minutes, for 10 minutes, or whatever it was, and they actually came back to life and they told the story about what happened to them. So many people will take 2 Corinthians 12, starting in verse 1, going, say, all the way to the first five, six, seven, seven verses, and what they will say is this, is they say, you see, the Bible says that that happened one time, and it only happened one time, and it can never happen again.
Well, I think, you know, to go to this point, I think a lot of people, we have to be careful. So if somebody says that they have an experience and they had an experience where they died and they came back, that we have to be careful with those experiences. And so the first thing that I look at is to take that experience and say, does that experience line up with what the Bible says?
And so, you know, one of the stories that I think of is that you have to be careful with is there was a guy named Eben Alexander, and it's a neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife. And so what happened to him was he supposedly passed away, and when he passed away, he saw all of these things when he had passed away. But, you know, I actually read part of that book years ago, and when I started to read that book, I started to realize that I don't think that this is from God. And the reason that I say that is because when I read that book and I compared it to scripture, I realized that what he was saying in that book, it contradicted scripture in many, many cases.
And a matter of fact, I was actually on a mission trip with Cross Assembly out of Raleigh. This was years ago when I was reading that book, and I felt the Lord and the Holy Spirit tell me in my spirit to just throw that book away, and I threw the book away. Because if something does not line up with scripture, then we need to be very careful not to take that in, and especially not to share it with other people, because it can be dangerous.
And so we know that all scripture is God-breathed. On the other side of it, I also want to say that, you know, in that particular passage of 2 Corinthians 12, it never says that something like what happened to that man, it never says that it's never going to happen again. It says that Paul, the Apostle Paul, he saw an experience like that of himself, and the experience that that he had from this other friend or this other guy that he knew, he hasn't heard about it again.
Doesn't say that it's never going to happen again. And so, you know, I would be careful because one of the things that we can kind of see when we look at these near-death experiences is that many of these near-death experiences, I do believe, do line up with scripture. And so if there is a near-death experience like 23 Minutes in Hell, or like The Perfect Way from Ian McCormick or whatever it is, I do believe that if those can point people to Christ, or can literally, I guess what you'd say, scare the hell out of people, or encourage people to give their lives to Christ, then we need to just take a second look at that and be careful not to say none of this none of this can be true. And so when I look at this, one of the things that I look at is where was this person before they came to Christ? And so, you know, one of the things that I see is that Ian McCormick, he was actually an atheist or an agnostic, and he grew up in the Anglican church, but he had completely walked away from God, and he said, I don't believe in any of this stuff at all. And so I'll give you this story.
I've got it written as it is right here from CBN News. It says that Ian grew up in New Zealand and from a young age shared a passion for the outdoors, all sports and particularly the ocean. He was raised as an Anglican, attended the Church of England, and was confirmed in the church at age 14. I would pray as a child and went to Sunday school in youth group, and yet I'd never really had a personal experience with God, shares Ian. His mother did not force him to come to church. However, she did tell him something that would ultimately save his life. She says, whatever you do in life, wherever you go, no matter how far that you think you've gone away from God, if you're in trouble and in need, cry out to God from your heart and he will hear you.
He will really hear you and forgive you. Ian chose not to go to church because it was basically just religion to him. After college, Ian worked and saved some money. Then at the age of 24, he set off on a two-year trip around the world, surfing all the major surf spots, including Australia, Bali, Java, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Reunion Island, and Mauritius in South Africa.
In 1982, en route back to New Zealand for his younger brother's wedding, Ian stopped in Mauritius. One evening, he went diving for lobster with some friends. He was stung by five box jellyfish whose poison can kill a person in four minutes, depending on where you are stung. Ian was taken to shore by boat and then left alongside the road.
He remembers feeling the poison pulsating and moving through his bloodstream. In a desperate search to save his own life, Ian went looking for help. He found a couple of taxi drivers at a gas station and begged them on bended knee for one of them to take him back to the hospital.
They walked away since he had no money. Finally, one came back and decided to take Ian to the hospital but changed his mind along the way and shoved Ian out of the car at a tourist hotel. There he saw a friend who called an ambulance for Ian.
When the ambulance came, Ian's body was completely paralyzed. On the way to the hospital, Ian began to see his life flash before him. He saw a vision of his mother who was a Christian praying for him.
It was as though she was speaking out those words that she had spoken so long ago. Ian, no matter how far from God you are, no matter what you've done wrong, if you cry out to God from your heart, he will hear you and he will forgive you. Ian didn't know what to pray so he cried out that if God was real, God would help him pray. Instantly, Ian showed him the Lord's Prayer. Ian prayed from his heart and gave his life to the Lord. I didn't understand it at the time but that was my prayer for salvation, shares Ian.
He says an incredible peace came over his heart and fear left him. When he arrived at the hospital, a nurse and a doctor tried to save his life by injecting anti-toxins and dextrose into his body but within a few minutes, Ian died. I knew that my spirit had left.
I had gone somewhere and yet I didn't know that I was dead, shares Ian. He found himself in complete darkness. At first he thought that he was still in the hospital so he tried to reach out to find a light switch. As he reached out, he found that he wasn't touching anything.
When he tried to touch his face, his hand would go right through it. Ian began to sense that it wasn't just a physical darkness but a spiritual darkness. He had a cold eerie feeling that there was something or someone else there and it or he was looking at Ian. From the darkness, Ian heard voices screaming at him, telling him to shut up and that he deserved to be there and that he was in hell.
He began wondering why he'd gone there because he'd prayed just before he died and asked God to forgive him of all of his sins. As he questioned why he was there, a brilliant light shone upon him and literally drew him out of the darkness. The light lifted Ian off of the ground and he began to ascend up into this brilliant white light like a speck of dust caught in a beam of sunlight. I was happy to be out of the darkness, shares Ian.
As he followed the tunnel, he found himself inside a long narrow tunnel. At the far end of the tunnel, he could see a radiant light which drew him closer at an incredible speed. This light passed through Ian and he could now feel a wave of warmth and comfort flood his soul. It wasn't just physical but it was giving off a living emotion.
One wave of light gave off peace. I had tried alcohol. I had tried education. I had tried sport.
I had tried relationships with women. I had tried drugs. I had tried everything that I could think of to find peace and contentment in my life and I had never found it. But from the top of my head to the base of my feet, I found myself totally at peace, reveals Ian. And he came out of the tunnel, Ian found himself standing in the presence of awesome light and power. He heard a voice ask him, Ian, do you wish to return? Ian was still trying to figure out where he was when he responded, I don't know where I am but if I am out of my physical body, I wish to return. The voice then said, if you wish to return, you must see in a new light. Ian asked, are you the true light? Words appeared in front of him. God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
First John 1 5. Ian had never read a Bible before in his life so he didn't know these words and came straight out of it. Ian thought, God is light. I see no darkness in here. I have just come from darkness. I see no evil, no shadows.
This is pure light. He knows my, my name and I didn't tell him. Only God could do that. He knows what I am thinking before I even speak. Only God could do that. Ian also thought that God must be able to, to see everything wrong that he had done in his life. He felt totally exposed and wanted to move away from the light as he drew back towards the darkness. A wave of light swept through him and he felt pure love flow over him. Ian found himself weeping uncontrollably in God's presence. As Ian stepped closer into the light, he could feel a presence healing his broken heart. Suddenly the light opened up and, and Ian could see Jesus moving in front of him.
His garments were shimmering, white in color and his, and his hands were outstretched as if to welcome him. Standing a few feet away from the Lord, Ian tried to see his face, but he didn't know that no man could see the face of God and live. As Ian moved his face into the radiance that surrounded his face, God moved and all his glory moved with him. Directly behind him, it opened out into a brand new world, green pastures, a crystal clear stream and rolling green hills. Ian could see the same light that he was on.
The presence of God was radiant, radiating through his entire creation, totally untouched by man, perfect creation. Ian knew that he belonged there, that God had created him to live there. And then Ian had a choice to return. God asked Ian, now that you have seen, do you wish to step in or do you wish to return? Ian thought, I don't want to return. I wish to step in. I have no one to go back to for, and no one has ever loved me.
I wish to step in. God didn't move, so Ian looked back behind him to say goodbye to his life on earth. Then standing behind him in a vision in front of a tunnel was his mother. When he saw, when he saw her, he knew that she was the one person in his life that had shown him love and prayed for him every day. He knew that it would break his mother's mother's heart if he died because she would have no way to know that God had heard his prayer in the ambulance and forgiven him of all of his sins. Ian didn't want to be selfish, so he decided to return. But God said that he must see that he must see these things in a new light. God's heavenly perspective, not his temporary earthly perspective. God also showed Ian a vision of his family and thousands of other people that would not get the chance to hear about him if Ian did not return. Ian was perplexed as to know he could possibly return back down the tunnel and back into his hospital bed. God said, son, tilt your head. Now feel the liquid drain from your eye.
Now open your eye and see. Ian was immediately back in his physical body. The doctor trying to save Ian's life had a scalpel and was prodding the base of his foot. Ian started to move, which terrified the doctor, the nurses, and the orderlies.
Ian found that he had been dead for a period of some 15 minutes. God completely healed Ian, and he walked out of the hospital the next day. Over the next six weeks, Ian read the entire Bible and has never been the same. He has shared the gospel and what God has done for him in over 60 nations and around the world. In 2009, Ian and his wife Jane felt the Lord lead them to London, United Kingdom, to plant a church.
And of course, there was the movie called The Perfect Wave, which is about Ian's death experiences, but near death experience. But it was also, uh, you know, I also saw where Ian was able to preach the gospel and share the good news of Jesus Christ to over 60 million people. And so what I, what I just ask myself is this, if that was not of God, if that was not of God, then, then why would the Lord use that to share the gospel with over 60 million people?
It just doesn't make sense. If that was not of God, and you think about it this way, because people could say, like for me, if I'm a, I'm a Christian, my name is Mike Zwick, I'm a Christian. If I were to say I'm, I die, and I have a near death experience, and I come back, and I share that experience, then what people could say was, well, you were a Christian to begin with, and you're just trying to share this because you want to share the good news of Jesus, and we may not believe it, but it could, you could just be using that to trick us.
Not the case with this guy named Ian McCormick. And the reason that I say that is Ian was a, he was a, an atheist or an avowed agnostic, so he did not believe in the gospel. He did not believe in the good news of Jesus Christ, yet when he died, and when he came back, all of a sudden, now he's sharing the good news, and because of the experience that he had, which was a gospel experience, now he's able to share that with over 60 million people.
And so I just, I can't believe when people say, hey, we can't listen to any of that stuff, especially when it, when it points people to the good news of Jesus Christ. But like I said, you also have to be careful because there are some near-death experiences that do not line up with the gospel, and the first thing that we have to see is that if they do not line up with the gospel, then we don't need to listen to them at all. You know, as far as my own experiences, I've sold life insurance for, gosh, 17, 18 years now, and when I've been out and I've talked to people, I have met people who have died and then, and then come back. People have told me they were on the operating table. I think about a, a lady named Fanny who's over in, in Burlington, North Carolina, and she's not a very, you know, may not be the most educated person, may not have a college degree or anything like that, but she told me, she said, Mike, I want to tell you about something that happened to me. She said, I died on the operating table. And she said, well, after I died, my spirit began to float away and I saw Jesus.
She said, I was not able to see his face because just like it says in that, in that scripture, that if you're able, if you see his face, then you're not going to come back, um, that no man can see God and live. But she said, I did want to tell you about this experience. And I think I remember her telling me that when she came back in her body, that she was told to tell other people about this experience. I've had some experience, I haven't been dead, but I've had some experiences myself that have pointed me to, to show, Hey, this thing, this whole thing is real.
And I want to share that with as many people as possible. Uh, but I was also reminded of another lady. She was probably in her mid to late seventies and her herself, she had died on the operating table. And by the way, this other lady named Fanny, she hasn't written any books. She's not out there trying to get any, any publicity.
She's not trying to make a name for herself. Matter of fact, her and this other lady, I don't even know how many people, these people told about this, but this other lady that I talked to, she told me that she died on the operating table. And when she did, she saw her family and she saw something called that she called a river of life. And she said that it was absolutely beautiful.
And she said that, I think somebody told her that it was not her time yet, but then she came back and she came to life. And another guy when I was in, uh, God, this was years ago, I believe he was out in Yatkinville. Uh, but he told me, he said that he died on the operating table. And I said, what did you see?
And he said, Michael, he said, it was the most beautiful thing that I've ever seen. He said there were mountains, there were lakes, there was this, that the other. And I think I remember people telling me in a way they didn't really want to come back. Um, but they came back for their family or it was not it was not their time or whatever it was, but this all points to the fact that there is a heaven. Uh, matter of fact, you know, there, there is another side there because I wish I could just stop there. Um, but the other side that, that we have to look at and, uh, what that comes to is, is, is the 23 minutes in hell, this guy named Bill Wiese.
And, and, you know, the interesting thing about Bill Wiese cause that this happened many, many years ago. Um, and, uh, he said that when it happened, I don't know if he calls it a vision or a dream or whatever it was, but he said in the middle of the night, um, he woke up and, uh, when he woke up, uh, what, what he said that happened to him is that he had been placed in hell and he was able to, God was able to show him what hell was like and that it was just awful. It was worse than anything that you could ever imagine. And you can Google it, you can go to YouTube, don't take my word for it. And you can look at this 23 minutes in hell.
Uh, look at Ian McCormick, uh, look at the perfect wave. Um, look at, there's another one, I think it was called 90 minutes in heaven, but all three of these stories, they all, they all, um, they all state, uh, that, that heaven is real and also hell is real. Uh, and you know, Bill Wiese, what he states is that he'd been a Christian since 1970, but he had never studied hell before his experiences. He said on the night of November 22nd, uh, 1998, according to his book, Wiese was then a real estate broker found himself in a cell approximately 15 feet high and 10 feet the other way, an area where, where there were, uh, foul, two foul smelling beasts, uh, personifications of evil and terror who spoke in a blasphemous language.
We said that, that the creatures had strength approximately 1000 times greater than the strength of a man. Wiese states that he heard the screams of the billions of damn people in hell. He states that he then encountered Jesus who told him to go back and to tell other people that hell is real.
Wiese states that his first experience ended with him lying on the floor in his living room and screaming in horror. And friends, I believe that these are true. I mean, because what they point to is they point to what Jesus said. Jesus said, if your, if your, if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better for you to go through life with one of your hands and to have both of your hands and to be thrown into the fire of hell. He said, if your, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.
It's better for you to have one of your eyes than to have both of your eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Jesus said in John 3 16, for God so loves the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And we all know that, but it says in John 3 36, it says, whoever has, whoever believes in the son has eternal life, but whoever does not believe in the son has been condemned already. So that tells me that if, if you have given your life to Christ, if you have been saved, if you have given your life to Jesus Christ, that whatever is going on in this world, and then I'm going to speak to somebody today, whatever is going on in this world, you don't have to worry about it. God has got your back. God has taken care of you and that no matter how bad things get, but we have to stand firm.
Okay. We have to stand firm for Jesus, but no matter how bad things get, we have a hope and we have a faith that Jesus Christ is our savior and that when we die, we don't have anything to worry about. We're going to be in heaven for all of eternity, and we need to look forward to that day. And which also tells me we don't need to be as worried as the rest of the world is. On the other hand, if you don't know Jesus, uh, that if something happens to you and you die, you apart from Christ, you are going to go to hell forever.
And there is no, no way out. Once you've died, there is nothing in the Bible that says that you will get a second chance once you've died and gone to hell. The Bible says that today is the day of salvation. So I want to tell every single one of you, if you're listening today, and if you have not given your life to Christ, give your life to Christ today, call out to Christ, ask him to be your savior, your Lord and your savior, and that you can be with him forever.
Because I've had a few experiences myself that point me to point me to know that Jesus is real. I was in Hawaii. And when I was in Hawaii, um, I had, uh, I had come down with some sort of a sickness.
It was an allergic reaction and I was on the beach. And when I was on the beach, uh, the Lord took me, it was to Psalm, uh, one Oh three. And in Psalm one Oh three, it says the Lord who heals all of our sicknesses and who heals all of our diseases. And I cried out to him and I said, Jesus helped me. Jesus said, Jesus helped me three times.
And the third time that I asked Jesus to help me, all of a sudden I felt much better. Um, I've had another experience, uh, where I was driving at the bottom of the Hill and I was listening to Charles Stanley. And when I was listening to Charles Stanley at the bottom of the Hill, I heard a voice in my ear and it says, you need to put your seatbelt on. And at that time I didn't wear my seatbelt, but I put it on because I listened to the Holy Spirit. I got to the top of the Hill and I ran straight up straight into a tree and the tree split the car right to the windshield. If it hadn't have been, been for me listening to that voice of the Holy Spirit, I wouldn't be here today.
And there was, there was another, uh, a dream that I had not too long ago where my dad, uh, came to me in a dream and he said, don't take the vaccine, don't take the vaccine. And so what I did when I woke up, I put it on social media and it got 28,000 views. Listen, whatever you're looking to today, whatever you're trusting in, I want you to trust in Jesus and surrender your life to Jesus. And we believe that he will save you right now. And we pray this in Jesus name. Amen.
If not for God. Hey, I just want to thank one of our sponsors, Greater Love World Outreach Center over in Burlington, North Carolina at 537 South Ireland Street. They have services Sunday at 10 30 in the morning and they have a Wednesday night service at seven pastor Ron Harris. He's been on the station before. Uh, we love to have him on. If you want to feel welcomed, made to feel like you're at home, go visit Greater Love World Outreach Center over in Burlington. This is the Truth Network.
