This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. I'm your host, Emerald Furtz.
Some stories ask us to slow down. Today's conversation is one of those stories. I'm joined by two close friends, faithful parents whose baby daughter, little Faith, lived for about six beautiful months with Trisomy 18. Her life was marked by fragility, but also deep love, intentional presence, and the nearness of God. This episode is not meant to rush past sorrow or offer any easy answers.
It's an invitation to sit in the tension of grief and faith. to acknowledge the pain of death while clinging to the hope that we have in Jesus Christ. If you're listening while carrying loss of your own, my prayer is that this conversation would remind you that God is not distant from your suffering and that even here, his grace is sufficient, his promises are sure, and his love holds fast. John and Jillian, thank you for joining me today on Hope in the Morning. You're welcome.
I was looking forward to having you guys come in today because. You know, there's a lot of history in the friendship here. I mean, I've known you guys for 20 years. over 20 years, you know, and And really, what a beautiful thing to have gotten to meet Faith and walked you guys, like walked with you guys a little bit through that. And I remember being 16 years old and singing in choirs with you guys.
And Jillian, you were someone that I admired right away. That I was like, I love Jillian, I want to be like Jillian. Oh, brother. You know, and granted, you're not very much older than me. You're just you were in a different life phase because you were already married and and you were expecting little faith at that point.
Um, can you walk us through what was the day like when you found out that you were pregnant with faith? One of surprise, we at the time we had been married, I don't even think, a year. And so. To be honest, it was a little bit of a disappointment.
Okay. You know, I think I, especially from me, like, I had just all these thoughts and plans, and I was 20 years old at that point. And so, just young, and I thought we were going to have all these years and travel and do all these things. And so, There was a little bit of shock and just like, oh, I just didn't, I didn't want this right now. John probably had a different.
Take. No, I was just excited. I was very happy.
Okay. Happy every time. Yeah.
So when you found out, when you got the diagnosis that she had trisomy 18. What did that look like for you? And at what point in your pregnancy was that?
So, around nine, ten weeks, I don't know if they still do this. I'm kind of out of the pregnancy loop, but they used to do these blood tests that would tell, just check for different kinds of markers, cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome, just different things that may be off. They suggested it to me at the doctor, and I didn't know any different.
So, I was like, sure, we'll do that. They didn't tell me at the time that it comes back with like an extremely high false positive rate.
So, it came back positive, but they said, Oh, don't worry, we're just gonna send you for an ultrasound. Most of the time, it doesn't mean anything.
So, We went and we did an ultrasound and that's really- Was that your first ultrasound ever with her? I believe it was, yes. And so then they, you know, test little things and do little measurements here and there. And then they noticed that there were things called soft markers. And that just means like these things aren't looking normal, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's like a positive diagnosis.
So once you get certain things on those ultrasounds that indicate a soft marker, then they suggest that you go and have an amniocentesis. We thought about it, prayed about it, and we thought, well, yeah, I mean, it doesn't change the outcome of how we're going to treat this pregnancy, but it would be good to know.
So we were scheduled with a specialist. We did the immunocytesis, and then we just had to wait for the results of that. That was a horrible day, the the finding out the results. There's like certain if you go back, like there's certain days you just remember like every vivid detail. That's one of those days.
Um, they called us into this office. And the lady was like running late, and she was very frazzled. And, you know, I figured that they wouldn't tell me the results over the phone. And so I figured something's up.
Okay. So they called her a genetic counselor. Yeah.
Okay. Genetic counselor. She wasn't like the specialist. She was just this counselor. And like, she comes in, she's like, oh, I'm sorry I'm running late, especially on a day like today.
And I was like, Okay, so you just basically told me this is bad news. In not a gentle way. No. In fact, we actually ended up walking out of her office because she said, Well, you have two options. And John stopped her right away and he said, There's one option, and we're going to be keeping our baby.
And We left. Like, I just didn't want to hear any more of what she had to say. Did you have to fight any more for Faith's life like that throughout the duration of your pregnancy? No. Thankfully, we had a believing doctor who attended Grace Community.
He was kind of the Grace Community doctor, Dr. Greels. Yes. Several of our friends and their children have been delivered by him. And so, no, that was one of the most gracious things that the Lord could have given us: a believing doctor.
doctor who just encouraged us the entire time. Because I don't know what we would have done. If we had not had a Christian doctor, Jillian, you were young. You were only 20 years old. That's young.
And here, you know, you weren't really. Desiring to start a family yet. You wanted a little more time just as husband and wife, which totally makes sense. And yet, here the Lord allows you to get pregnant. And then you find out that your child has a condition where they may not survive at all.
And if they do, it will be probably a very short life. How did you kind of How did you wrestle with the Lord over that? Did you feel like it was unfair? What did that look like for you? Well, I felt guilty because of my first reaction to it.
I did struggle, especially when we would, you know, I would go to baby stores and things like that because, you know, I did plan for her to be born statistically. Um, 60% of babies that have trisomy 18 die in the utero, so they you usually miscarry them.
Okay, um, of that 40% that don't die in utero, um, 90% of them die before they're one, and their average lifespan is three days. Wow, so it's a very, very short window. But I wanted to prepare for her to be, you know, born, and so I would go to baby stores and back when they had babies RS. That was my fun place to go. And I really struggled with moms or women there who were pregnant, and you could kind of tell, like.
Either they weren't married or they were teenagers or their kids were running amok. And it was just like, but Lord, I'm going to, we're going to raise her to know you. And, and, and, and then, you know. To teach her the gospel and all those things.
So I struggled with that, especially being so young. Like, I felt like I was doing it the right way. Yeah.
Um, Well, it's similar to In In the Psalms, several Psalms David gives are him essentially complaining to God why do the Wicked get blessing, and I have to suffer. Yeah.
And it's that same kind of struggle is. Is I'm trying to do everything right. I'm praying, I'm depending on you, I'm having faith. But I get the bad end of the stick here, and everybody else. Who has who doesn't care about you is being blessed?
Why is that? Yeah, that was hard. Yeah, we had a guest on here, and I thought she put it so well. She's actually the author of a book called Singing Through Fire. She talks about how, as Christians, we often expect this basic bag of blessings, right?
Because, and because of that, we think, Lord, I'm following you, I would raise this child in the fear and admiration of the Lord. Why would you grant me this pregnancy when we weren't even looking to add a child to our family? And yet, You've given and you've taken away, like, there's really I think that's a struggle with anybody that loses a child or has a miscarriage. John, how old were you at the time? I was 25, I think.
25, yeah.
So, I mean, that's a really big thing for you guys to walk through together. Who did you guys have, either in your families or in the church, that you felt really kind of just put their arm around you and said, I'm going to walk this journey with you?
Well, definitely our pastor at the time, Carrie Hardy, and his wife, Pam, they were our Sunday school teachers at the time. And they really did walk us through that. They had us over to their home and talked us through different things, even just simple things like, If you have a funeral, this is how these things might go. Then there was our Bible study leaders, the Doherty's. They were really.
Just stood by us, especially the Bible study as a whole. They gave me a shower, you know, just they made everything just. Loving and as normal as possible. No one walked around with, like, you know, just this utter grief about them. Everybody was just.
Joyous and prayed for us. We were in the choir, so everybody in the choir was praying for us. Um everyone just treated us With love and grace and encouragement, but not this. Sense of like dread, or oh, I don't want to talk to you about it. I don't know.
It was just, we felt very supportive. Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that that's that's great. I remember, you know, especially being with you in one of the choirs, Jillian, I remember talking with you about your pregnancy with with Faith. And actually, you were going to name her something different before. You were going to name her Ariabella. Aria.
Arya.
Okay. Aria. And I remember. You telling me that you decided to change her name. And did that name change come right after her diagnosis?
Like, what was the, how did that occur? I believe we were driving home. Pretty soon after and I Either John said it or I said it, and it was just like, I don't. I don't feel like that's. her name.
Like I just don't feel like that's what her name should be. And He's actually the one that came up with it, and he said, What about faith? And I was like, I love that. Just It's a test of our faith. Um, he has always been faithful, he will be faithful, yeah.
Um And he did, he proved it. That's a big challenge in a young marriage, too. You know, you mentioned you'd only been married for a year, right? That's a big challenge to face. Had you guys faced any kind of a big trial before that together?
No. No. So, this is your first big one. Were you guys? Did you find that immediately it brought you closer to one another, or did you have any sort of Communication disconnections during the time that you were actually carrying faith?
No, I think that it brought us we didn't have It brought us together. I remember at the hospital, some nurses thought there was something wrong with us, like we didn't quite understand what was happening because we could still be joyful. And have a good relationship when My guess is that when a lot of people, especially out in the world, go through something like this, they. They break apart because they can't handle the situation or how to grieve together. Yeah.
They pulled my parents aside actually and said, Do they, do they, you know, they're young, do they really fully understand this? And My mom was like, Yes, they understand. They're just enjoying this time that they have with their daughter. And this is when you went to the hospital to deliver her. Yeah, okay.
Yeah, they had never seen anything like it. I had flowers covering my room, people were coming in. I mean, I had visitor after visitor after visitor, and everybody was just joyful and happy and so excited. And they had never seen anything like it, and so they just kept going. I don't think they're understanding.
And it's like, no, we are understanding. We have the hope of Christ. And We're just so thankful for her life and that she's here.
Well no, I mean that's That's 1 Peter 3:15, lived out, right? Always being ready to give a defense for the hope that is in you, and with all respect and gentleness. I witnessed firsthand you guys both doing that. I was actually in different singing groups with each of you. And you guys never, you never wavered in your joy.
And that was, I mean, that was something that I continually admired about you, Jillian. Like, I just, I really. I admired the fact that you were this bubbly personality, that you trusted the Lord, but I've always loved the fact that you are a very tell-it-how-it-is person. Like, I love that because I mean, I'm similar, but I love being around people that are just, this is real life, there's no sugarcoating it. And yet, you still had this radiant joy and I just think that that's a beautiful thing.
And I remember after you had faith, which we're going to go into that in just a moment, but I will never forget the fact that you allowed people to hold her. I remember sitting on the church patio, and you know, here she had these wires connected to her and different things. Did she have a feeding tube? She had a feeding. And you just let me hold her.
And I loved getting to hold her. And I loved the fact that you. You didn't seem like this anxious mom, knowing that her days were numbered. You weren't. Toarding her in a sense where it's like, don't touch her.
She's, you know, she's fragile. It wasn't. You were just, it was so beautiful how you were just like, oh, you want to love on her too? You can hold her. And I love that.
And I think that you made a lot of people really love faith because they felt connected to her. They felt like, They got to hold her and pray for her and love her alongside you.
So, when we come back, we're going to talk about when you delivered faith and what those six months looked like.
So, join us again in a moment on Hope in the Morning. Do you have a testimony of hope? Perhaps you've walked through depression or addiction. Maybe you were diagnosed with a serious illness or have suffered the life-altering death of a loved one. If you want to encourage others with your testimony and share the light of Jesus, visit hopeinthemorning.org and submit your story.
Your story might be just what someone else needs to hear to find hope in their mourning. Do you have a heart to comfort the hurting? Do you want to show the world that through Jesus Christ we can have hope in all circumstances?
Well, then we welcome you to visit hopeinthemorning.org and see how you can join us in these ministry endeavors. May you be encouraged by who our God is as you continue this episode of Hope in the Morning. To learn more, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. Have you ever struggled to comfort a grieving friend? John 11, 35 says, Jesus wept.
When Jesus was told by Mary and Martha that their brother Lazarus had died, Jesus wept. Today on Hope in the Morning, we invite you to learn what it looks like to weep with those who weep. Learn what it means to sit in the ashes and be encouraged that even in our morning, there's hope. His name is Jesus. Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn more.
Welcome back to Hope in the Morning. In our book, Hope in the Morning, Jillian writes this. It was my 21st birthday. 21st birthdays are to be celebrated with much joy and zest for life. Mine was different.
Of course, my family tried to make the day as special as they could, considering the circumstances. As I sat trying to enjoy lunch at the very expensive restaurant that my father graciously took us to, all I could think about was the precious life growing inside of me. During my 21st year of life, I was being tasked by my Heavenly Father to carry something beautifully, wonderfully, life-changing, and gut-wrenchingly painful. The task of bringing Faith Isabella into this world Caring for her in a short but sweet life on this earth. and releasing her into the safe arms of God.
Jillian, you did such a beautiful job writing your story in here and Can you tell us what it was like to actually live? That story. Yeah.
It's interesting because When you're in it. It's just kind of like Like you said earlier, just, oh, you let people hold her. I didn't think anything else. Like, I just treated her just as a mom would treat any baby. And We wanted to share her.
Yeah.
Like her life was precious. And we, I just remember just deciding. I'm going to make life as normal as possible. And so. She's still our daughter, and we're just going to do all of the things.
Every day was I'm one day closer. To her not being here. And when is what is that going to be like? I think that for me was the most. Difficult thing was, I didn't know when.
I didn't know how long. And I didn't know if it was going to be some sickness, and then she didn't come out of that, or if it was going to be. Um she passed away in her sleep, and that's what I always prayed for. But I didn't, there was always this unknown and then how am I going to handle it? Did that bring any like anxiety for you at all during that time?
Not that I can like overlaid think through. I mean, there was absolutely definitely anxiety, especially in regards to her feeding and things like that. She was, you know, underweight and she had ended up having to have a surgery. And so there was definitely just an anxiety, but I think anxiety any mom would have just about their child in general, if they were sick or unwell.
So, you didn't feel like overly protective of keeping her healthy or having to monitor her every second while she was sleeping.
Okay. Not, I love that. Not too much. No. And I think that that was a grace of yeah, absolutely.
I mean, that's why I say that I love that is because I think that that again is a demonstration of like. The peace that only God can give. Because I think all of us moms struggle with that to some extent, right? It's like that first time your baby sleeps that long stretch, you're like, oh my goodness, are they alive? Yes.
Because we just. And I absolutely had that feeling. I remember, you know, checking on her. Yeah, we would both. We would both do that.
But I don't remember that as like the overarching theme of her life is that I was constantly anxious and fearful. Yeah.
And I and I just, the only way I can attribute that is to the grace and peace of Christ. Were there unique memories that, John, are there unique memories that you remember making with faith during during those six months of her life? I remember waking and I I would generally feed her at night because um I had the most experience with the G-Tube and how that whole thing worked. And she used to. When she was awake and she was in her bassinet, she would stick her hand straight up and have her little, she had a hook finger, and it just.
That just reminds me of her. Yeah.
Are there things that you did to kind of make some memories with her? One of my favorite memories is she was just so tiny.
So when she passed away, she was barely 10 pounds.
So when she was born, she was three pounds, two ounces. And so she was just tiny. And I remember we had her in these like micro-preemie clothes, and my sister had. These, I don't know if it's dolls or stuffed animals. I mean, like, put her on the bed, and it was like, find faith because she was just so small, surrounded by all these little animals.
And that's one of my favorite memories. She survived like two car accidents. Wow. Like, there's just a surgery. And a surgery.
Yeah.
Like, all these things. But we just tried to just do fun things. I mean, we took her to, you know, different places. I feel like we went to the zoo and always she always did, you know, like Christmas concerts and she had like a little Santa dress. Yeah, I just remember that.
Yeah, just I just tried to make her, you know, she went to a ladies' tea with me.
So I just. Just treated her like I would any of my other children. I didn't know any different. She was my first child, and I didn't, I didn't think, oh, she's different. It was just, she's my, my baby, and I'm gonna, this is how I'm going to treat her.
Yeah.
And there's a sense of the Lord's grace, perhaps, in that, too. We didn't have any children beforehand, so we didn't know what was normal.
Okay. Yeah.
And so. Like when we had Owen and Asher and the others. It was like, oh, this is way different than what we did. We did see the differences. Yeah.
But that came later. Yeah.
Yeah.
So. We didn't have like this feeling like oh She is not growing up like Owen did, kind of, if Owen happened to be the first one.
So there's a sense in which we were protected from that. You had mentioned that only 40% of children with tristomy 18 live to have a live birth. Correct. And that most of those babies, you said 90%, 90 for three days. Correct.
So were you guys just kind of in awe as like month one? Month two. Yes. Month three. In fact, the genetic ultrasound, I don't remember exactly what they call him, but we went to him with subsequent pregnancies just because they wanted to, you know, check and make sure everything was good.
But he said he'd never seen a baby with tries to be 18 live that long ever in his entire career. He was a. Very well-known doctor at UCLA. And he'd never seen that. And so, yes, every day it was just like, we know that this is something that the Lord is being gracious.
With and I expected her honestly to be born, either still born or to be born and live a few minutes. Like, that's what I went into the delivery room preparing myself for.
So do you feel like that was such Such a beautiful gift from the Lord to give you six months with her. Absolutely. It was actually seven. Seven. Yeah, seven.
Yeah.
And people have often asked, like, you know, what's the hardest thing you've gone through? And, you know, would you do it again? And absolutely.
So, yeah. I mean, you love her. It does not change your love for her or the status of who she is as your daughter. When that time did come and the Lord called her home, what was that day like? And in the weeks and months, and honestly, years.
After that, for the two of you in your marriage, what was that? What was that like for you guys? Again, I don't I don't I never Felt that there was a struggle with the two of us. If anything, it just brought us closer together. It just felt like we were doing it together.
And maybe that was because we were young. But did you guys grieve similarly, or did you grieve in different ways, but it ended up being like complementary? Or what did that? I think it was definitely different. If anybody knows us, they know that I'm the.
more extroverted. Life of the party, boisterous. John's reserved, but very steady. And the day she died. We actually reversed roles, and it was very interesting.
It was such a definite like I've I've never Experienced just the peace of God that way before ever in my life. And, you know, John was the one that was more emotive and, Panicking isn't the right word, but he was just more concerned. And I was like, it's okay. She's she's gone. Which is so not like us in Dave today.
He's always the one telling me it's okay. And so I was telling him it was okay. And it was just this almost outer body. Experience that I can only attribute to the grace of God. And He just gave us both just the grace to just walk through the day.
Um, and do each thing, you know. But it was a hard it was a hard day. Were there things that you guys feel like you had done in preparation, knowing that her days here on earth would be short? Were there books that you had read or sermons you specifically listened to or even just things that you two discussed ahead of time that you felt I guess my question in that. is for parents that are facing this right now.
is that a helpful thing for them to have different tools to help prepare? their heart for that. Yes, I definitely think, you know, this was 2005, and then kind of into 2006, there were not a lot of resources. It was not talked about as much as it is today. Just even, you know, just infant death and loss or miscarriage.
It just wasn't a topic that you heard about, especially for someone as young as I was. You know, usually trisomy babies, you're in your 40s. Like it's like statistically, we were just not the type of people that would have a baby with a chromosomal abnormality. And so it was very difficult to. To find resources.
I mean, if again, early 2000s, so it wasn't like there was the internet or blogs to like you could go and read. Safe in the Arms of God by John MacArthur was one book that. I think we both really clung to. We both read that, and it was just.
So comforting to know that we knew where she would be and that we would see her again. Um Other things to do that was more for me was, you know, I did buy her baby clothes and I did, um, You know, have little like animals. Um, we have like a bear that we did, we took her to build a bear, and so we still have that bear that she made. Um, you know, just things like that. We had a sweet woman in the choir, she did a watercolor painting of faith.
It's like that's one of my most treasured possessions.
So, just remembering her life in that way with little things to. To even have and to show our children now, even though, I mean, not some of them are adults and obviously they didn't meet her, but we talk about her and they can kind of understand and see her life through those things. Yeah.
I actually didn't know with your guys' story, I did not know that Carrie was your pastor back there. I did not know that. And so, again, for those listening, the three of us grew up really at the same church, basically. It's so neat that here you guys are in North Carolina, where he pastors. We actually just had him on because he's on our panel of pastors for the ministry here.
Um And That's just such a neat thing that the Lord would do that because I I would assume that there's something There's like a special comfort when people knew her. And so it's kind of like there's a lot of people that, as you've gotten older, as you mentioned, you have some kids that are grown. And I will, John, how many kids do you have now?
Well, we have Six. Yeah, five boys and one girl. Yeah, six in faith. And which again, it's like you, so you had this precious little girl. And then the Lord gave you how many boys, Jillian?
Five. Five in a row. Yeah, five. Five in a row. Yes.
So then the Lord gave you another precious little girl. Yes. And what did you name that precious little girl? She named her Aria. Aria.
And did you feel like that was. Lord, almost putting not a not a bow on your suffering, but kind of like almost the rainbow that you saw at the end, like that you got to have this other little girl. Yes, and she kind of always been the bow, the rainbow, all of it. Yeah, um, and we just We couldn't not name her Aria. It just seems so fitting.
Our girls are our bookends. And so. I did wait a very long time. I love my boys, but That was another, I guess, way that I did have to work through is like. Again, if anybody knows me, I'm very girly and I love all the girly things.
And so then to have these five boys, I was like, what?
Okay, the Lord's testing me in another way to take my daughter home, you know, and then to give me sons who. I felt a little bit out of my element. And then to just be like, just wait, you know, and then you know, to give this Arya, who is also extremely girly. Yes. And she Has always loved faith and you know, just like that's her sister, and so it's very sweet.
But the Lord is very, very gracious. I've always thought of Aria as that gift that the Lord has given to us. It's just extra special. Are there ways that, even though your other children didn't have an opportunity to meet faith in person, you know, Lord willing, they will meet her in heaven as they come to know the Lord as well. But are there ways that you guys remember faith?
As a family.
Well, we have the painting, which we've had, you know, hung in our home. Obviously, they all know her birthday and the day that she passed away. She's buried in California.
So unfortunately, it's not like we can go as a family to put flowers. But we have a friend back home who often on bigger birthdays will put flowers at her grave and send us a picture.
So we've just honestly, there's nothing special necessarily that we've done over the years, but The thing that we have done is talk about her, answer questions that they may have, what that looks like. Our second oldest son, Asher, he's actually just started a nursing program. And so he's asked us some things just about, because he's going into nursing, just about trisomy 18 and what that looks like medically. And, you know, he actually told us that he. Maybe would like to do something like NICU or specialized things because of faith and that what we've gone through and he could be an encouragement to those parents.
Did that kind of touch your heart? It did. Yeah, I really was really thankful for that. What a sweet thing. And for those of you that don't know, that are listening on the radio, this is also a podcast program and a YouTube program.
And you get the full show if you listen to the podcast.
So this is just half of it, what you hear on the radio.
So tune in to Hope in the Morning anywhere you listen to podcasts, or you can go to YouTube at Hope in the Morning Backstage and watch our interviews. But I would highly recommend that you go and listen to our podcast for the remainder of the story because we're going to talk about what you can do to serve people and what things are actually hurtful to say.
So join us in a moment on Hope in the Morning. All right, so going back to the fact that you said that she is buried in California. And that you have a friend that goes, and on important dates, she will go and put flowers there. What does that mean to you? It's very special.
In fact, there's a couple of friends that actually. Um, always remember to text me either on her birthday or on the day that she died, and it's been 20 years this last January 1st, and the fact that. We don't even talk all the time. She lives completely across the country. We weren't even at the same church.
Like, we grew up together. She's one of my childhood friends, and she remembers faithfully every year. It just means that she's not forgotten. Yeah.
And just. That her life, even though it was so small and so short, it had an impact on people. And our Bible study leaders and other people, they were, I remember, they were able, you know, to say, Hey, like, I'm going to this funeral and share with people Just this testimony of her little life. And I truly believe that because of her, the Lord saved people. Yeah, I do, I believe that He used her.
Yeah, I was going to ask you guys that question too, and John, I'll direct this one to you: is what In what way do you hope that faith's life will point other people to Christ?
Okay. So, I think one of the ways why she has been so impactful in our lives and the people around us. is that we were willing to share her with others. That we didn't just go in a corner and just silently suffer together. And you That's how we get to share the grace of God in our lives is.
suffering with people and showing them what we're going through and the difficulties. But that there's still hope.
So I think that's really what it comes down to: the grace of God and sharing that with other people. And this is just a. And a way of making that happen. Mm. I think you guys were so gracious to share your testimony in the book, Hope in the Morning.
And I would assume that that's not the only place that you've been asked to share about Faith's life. Um And It really is a testimony when you see people be able to be honest about the grief they face. I think that that's a huge thing as Christians. There's a strength in our weakness, right? There's not a strength when we pretend like we have it all together because we don't.
And I think that can be disconcerting for people who are struggling with things. If you're constantly looking at people who appear to have it all together, then you start to think, okay, well, maybe this is just me. And then you, you honest. Maybe even one. Like, go inward more because you feel like you can't be vulnerable and you can't share those things.
And so I just wanted to be very open. It was like, I am struggling. This is hard. You know, one of the hardest things I have is when someone at church or anywhere else is like, how are you? I'm like, do you really wanna know?
If I'm really going through something difficult, do we really want to know how other people are? And are we willing to walk through whatever it is with them? Like, it can be messy and painful. We're not alone. We're not the only ones struggling.
And so, if you don't, if you're not willing to be open and vulnerable and let people know, hey, I'm struggling with this. No one's going to know, and no one's going to be willing to do that. And it's I feel like where people meet one another is where you say, Hey, look, I'm struggling with this. And then you find, hey, I am too. And you can walk through that and encourage one another together.
Yeah, and that's humility, right? And that's what, that's how we should be: humble toward one another. What would you guys say toward a mother or a father that either is preparing to lose a child? or has recently lost a child if they are really struggling with things like anger. What would you say to them?
Find someone you can connect with. Don't do it alone. Like I said earlier, the sharing aspect I think made it easier for us because. We had so much support, people who loved us. and went through it with us.
to do that alone sounds terrifying. I remember I was um I ended up becoming pregnant with our oldest son, Owen. He's going to be 20 in May.
So they are very close in age, 11 months. And I remember being pregnant with him, and everything was fine. And Wrestling with why was the Lord allowing this child, but not going to allow faith to live? And you know, that was a very, very hard thing for me at 21 years of age. And talking to people with, like, it's not that I don't love this child, I do, but why can't I have both?
And just being able to talk through that, and the Psalms are a great place to go for that. Um, David did ask questions of God, and he did say, I don't like this, I'm struggling, I'm fearful, I'm angry. Pray. Talk to it. Talk to people about it.
Yeah.
But then. Go back to what you know to be true: is that God is sovereign and God is always good. Yeah.
Because if you can't do that, you're not going to be able to get through it. What role did your church and your Bible studies and stuff play in kind of. Anchoring your feet in those moments, especially when you were pregnant with Owen, when you were kind of wrestling with that, which I would assume is a very normal thing with women in subsequent pregnancies. What role of importance would you say your church and your Bible study had in helping anchor you to truth in those moments?
Well, I think definitely church was just good, solid Bible teaching, reminding us who we are in Christ, what Christ has done for us. And that no matter what situation that we are in, we can have hope. And God's sovereignty, or our doctor was the same way, just reminding us of. We know who's in control of this. We don't know the outcome, you know.
But I remember I was having a C-section, and he was like, We don't know the outcome. I'm going to do my earthly job of making sure that I can get her out quickly, but we know who holds her in his hands. We need to rest in that. Um, so that was anchoring, and then I think just. Being the hands and feet of Christ, bringing meals, making blankets, you know, how can I pray for you?
Books. I remember one of them gave me a journal so that I could write my prayers. Just being loving and thoughtful. And again, not treating me like I was some death. You know, just this body of death.
Yeah.
But, but having joy through it. And that was a big thing, a big thing for us is we wanted, I didn't want to look back on her life and. saw think that we lived it with drudgery. Yeah.
Or or just this Head hanging grief. Yeah.
And I don't think that we did. I think that there was just joy every day was, oh, she's still here and she was precious. And the book of Job. is so key in grounding through suffering. Because he went through some far worse than anything we've experienced.
And God used him simply as a test to prove to Satan. Essentially that The work of God in someone's heart is steadfast, and Satan can't ruin it.
So, yeah. We have a verse on her gravestone, right? It's the end of Job. The Lord hath, you know, the Lord gave the Lord gave, the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
And that's. That's what we want. You know, and it's one thing to say those words, and it's a whole other thing to live them out, right? Yep. When it's your precious daughter, like.
Yeah, I mean you so you had mentioned that Yeah. it was helpful to not have people treat you like you were just this walking despair basically. What are some other things that people should be mindful to avoid saying or doing to people that have received a life-altering diagnosis for their child? Yeah.
Um, everybody's different, but for me it was A lot of people don't want to talk about it. I did.
So it's like. Don't not ask me about her. I want to talk about her. This is while you were pregnant with her and after her. And after she died, yeah.
Another thing was: I remember, you know, after she passed away, our Bible study leader purposely left her as part of our family. Like, you know, you have like a little directory and it was like the names of your kids and their birth dates. Yeah.
She didn't take that away. Because it was like You know, you don't She still was there. She still had a life. Yes, she died, but she's not. Not a part of our family, um, that was encouraging to me.
Um, I think too, allowing people There were Grief is not linear. It's definitely this roller coaster. And so there were some days I was more joyful, and I would reach out, and people would text me, and I would, or. It was probably not a text. It was probably more like an email or a phone call, but you know, letter in the mail.
Yeah, something they would reach out, and I was willing to receive that. And other times, I wasn't. And so, especially, you know, this day and age, it's lots of texting. If someone doesn't text you back when they're grieving, don't take that as a personal offense. But also, don't take that as ignore them.
Right. And just meet people where they're at. It's going to be. difficult and it's going to be different each time and just be gracious with them. Um Big one was don't Ask them, like, just, or don't tell them, like, let me know if you need something.
In that moment of grief, I didn't know what I needed. And I didn't have the wherewithal to be like, hey, can you do this for me? Just do it, just bring a meal. And say, hey, you can put this in the freezer. I remember that our Bible study they brought over groceries and just filled our fridge, they brought over meals.
Um, they were like, you know, just here's this, here's that. They just did, and I didn't have to think about that, yeah, and it took that. weight off of me. Yeah.
I've seen more and more since doing this program and having this ministry that it's dawned on me more that we all have the same spirit dwelling within us, right? And so there might be a brother or sister in Christ who is crying silent tears at night. not telling anybody else what they're going through and yet You might feel a nudging, like, I wonder about so-and-so. I wonder how they're doing, and just out of the blue, they're on your heart. And one of the things I have started learning, even just to put into application in my own heart, in my own life, is when I feel that nudging, like reach out to them, say, Hey, I'm praying for you.
Can I pray something specific for you? Or I've just been thinking about you. Because oftentimes That that is like single-handedly what people feel. Like, okay, the Lord heard me. The Lord sees me.
And because we all have that same spirit indwelling in us. I mean, it was literally just a couple of months ago where I just saw that the beauty of the fact the Lord can see what you're facing. And the Lord can stir the spirit within me and say, Check on Jillian. Yeah.
And But don't ignore that. And we've talked here on the show multiple times about how love and hurry. don't go hand in hand. And we live in such a hurried society. That rarely are we willing to just slow down, yeah, and rarely are we willing to slow down and suffer with somebody else.
But that's what God calls us to do, right? And not just that, but be long-suffering, yes. And just like you're saying with your friend, that's a long-suffering friend who remembers continually. And 20 years later, because you're you guys are still missing her. I'm sure that that doesn't go away.
You think about her, you think about oh, Faith would have been graduating this year. I wonder if Faith would be dating someone this year. I wonder if she'd be getting married. You know, she's the age that you were when you were pregnant. with her.
So what does grief look like for you guys now? I think it comes in just bits and pieces. It's not a day-to-day, like, I don't, we're not sitting just mournful. Obviously, we've raised our kids.
Some are younger, but one actually just, you know, flew the nest.
So It's definitely like you said, more in like Things that would be happening.
So on her birthday in June, she would be 21. And I was 21 when I had her. And just so thinking through those things, seeing other, you know, young women that age that we know from church and just be like, oh, I bet they would be friends. And what would she be experiencing and Just And it's not a, it's not this like overwhelmingly sad grief. It's more just like.
Mm. A missing and a longing to see her again. But That is one of the greatest hopes that I've had as a mother is Until my children profess Christ, which some of them have, and I'm thankful for that. But I have a guarantee of living with faith in eternity. And having our other children, I didn't have that guarantee until they made that profession of faith for themselves.
But I am confident that Faith and the two other children that I've lost. Are there and that is a great comfort as a mom? Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I just want to say your little miscarried babies' names because I think I love the names. You guys picked it's a Providence and Requiem, right? And that's something that I encourage on this show in other episodes and I've done as well is naming those babies because no matter where you were at gestationally, you loved those babies. You know, the second you see those two pink lines, even if it's not what you were expecting, you know, even I'm sure that even as you saw those two lines, pink or blue, whatever they were on that test, that maybe your heart was saying, oh man, this is not the time, but you loved her in that moment. Instantly.
So excited. Yes. And you change everything. You know, you stop eating sushi, which is like, that's a big sacrifice, right? But.
Yeah.
but I think that it gives not only worth to those children, like. Just acknowledging the worth they already have. Yes. But it also, I found it to be quite a comfort as a parent. And even for Brent, for my husband, I think that there was a comfort.
In that, and even like having that discussion as the mom and the dad, what do we want to name this child? And you know, I mean, we named all of our children, Living and those that have passed away, they all have Hebrew names. But our last one, we named Kina because it means lament. And there's such a truth in that. When you lose children, there is a lament.
And it doesn't matter what, it doesn't matter how old they were. I mean, if you were to lose a child now at 18, 20. There's a loss. You know, you see these, these. Women and fathers who are in their 70s and they lose a child.
There's a huge lament in that. They're part of us, you know? And so we want to come alongside one another. And I think that you have given us some beautiful demonstrations of what that looks like in practical form. Have you guys found that as parents that have gone through not only the loss of baby faith, but also the loss of Requiem and Providence?
Do you guys feel uniquely equipped to comfort others in those situations. Yeah, I think there's a sense in which, yeah, that we've walked through it, especially with those who maybe have a trisomy specific baby. Trisomy 18 is quite rare.
So it's not like I've come along across a lot of people that have had those babies. Um But yeah, I definitely think that the Lord has given us an ability to to help. Those who are grieving in that way, because it's a It's a very unique type of grief. And until you've gone through it, you know, you can't really. understand it.
And just like I can't understand You know, someone who's lost an adult child. I mean, that's a whole different set of painful. Circumstances that I have not experienced. And so I think that. the Lord uses that in our lives too.
Just grow us and to and to help. the people that he brings in our path. Yeah.
Would you say the same thing, John, that you have you had men come to you and talk to you when they find out that their child has a diagnosis or that they have had a miscarriage? I have not specifically known. It's usually been women who've suffered. That Jillian has had interactions with. But yeah, I haven't had the opportunity at this point.
I think that it's interesting because, like you guys mentioned earlier, especially when you were pregnant with faith, there weren't a lot of resources out there to help, especially with men. Right, I think that that's that's an even more rarely spoken about thing. I still think it is. I agree, I completely agree. I think that people just they naturally assume to come alongside the wife, right?
But the husband, the husband suffers too differently, but he suffers too. And he has to be the leader of the family, and so it's a different kind of support that a husband needs. And I think that that's important. We actually have quite a few men that listen to this program, and I think it's important for men that are listening to hear that if you, if you, whether you're an older man and you hear of a younger man whose wife had a miscarriage, or maybe you're a younger man and you haven't gone through that, or you have, and you can speak into that. Don't be afraid to reach out to those men too and say, Hey, can I take you to lunch?
Can I just take you out for a burger and just kind of talk about it? How are you doing? How are you handling all this right now? And how are you navigating leading your wife through this? And something else that I think people, you know, just for a moment to touch on the miscarriage.
is people don't understand the physical side that happens with a miscarriage. And so a husband is caring for a wife going through really The after effects of giving birth, yeah, you know, and But it's all done largely in silence. Yeah, it is. And that's something that I think. We can help do a better job as a church coming alongside one another.
I so appreciate you guys sharing your testimony today. And just to reiterate that I think that both of you have been such a faithful example of what it looks like to. Face the trials that God gives you, but you don't do it without hope. And I think that you guys have had very generous, joyful spirits all along the way. I'm so thankful that the Lord brought you guys here.
And, you know, now we've gotten to serve two different churches together. And that's really been a blessing. And I would say that if you, if you, are listening today and You're grieving, especially if you're carrying the loss of a child, either the eminent loss of a child or the recent loss of a child. Grief doesn't mean that you lack faith. It doesn't mean that.
And your tears don't disqualify the hope that you have in Christ. And sorrow doesn't mean that God has stepped away from you. The Lord can work in that sorrow as well. And our hope is, it's not found in understanding why suffering comes, but in knowing who holds us in it.
So thank you so much for joining me today, John McGillian on Sunday. Thank you. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting. equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved one's honor.
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