Surrender in the Stillness

This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. I'm your host, Emily Curtis.

When life takes a drastically different turn than we had hoped or prayed for, it can be heartbreaking. Psalm 27, 13 states, I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Friends, as you listen to today's episode, my prayer for you is that you will be reminded of the unwavering goodness of the Lord throughout all circumstances in your life. and that your heart will find rest in that truth. Zoe, thank you for joining me today to share the hope that you have of Christ in you.

Thanks for having me.

So, right off the bat, what we're going to talk about is an issue that we know within the church can be somewhat controversial. And I think it's important that we talk about things that are non-salvific. controversial topics. In a non-divisive, loving, humble way, you know, where we can all learn something, we can have teachable spirits. Today, one of those topics is IVF.

And as I said, I know that that can be a controversial topic amongst Christians, partially because sometimes embryos are created and never used.

So Zoe, can you let us know what decision did you and your husband make once you guys had made the choice for IVF? Right, we had really gone back and forth between do we adopt, do we do IVF, or do we just not have kids? After not being told that there was any issue with my body, we really wanted to try IVF because that was what we the next step in our fertility journey.

So we met with our pastors and we were just counseled that. As long as we were going to be faithful to every embryo that we made and not to assume or Make too many that we could not be accountable for, that we would use them all.

So, whatever that number was that we wrestled with, and we ended up saying, okay, we'll try to fertilize seven eggs. And if all seven fertilized, that'd be crazy. We could have potentially seven kids. We don't know what life would be like, but we also saw other people in the church that had six kids. We're like, we could be like them, we could do it.

And so we just we went with seven and we knew that going into it that if all seven fertilized became little souls that we would we would be faithful to use them all to the best of our ability and doing that at a time appropriate rate.

So whatever that mapped out with my age, we would just know that I could be an older mom if all worked correctly.

So we fertilized seven and six, made it to be fertilized. One didn't fertilize at all, so it never became an embryo. And then you wait five days and see if they continue to develop to be frozen. And we're like, we were counseled with our doctor that like 20 to 30% would make it.

So, in our mind, the maximum would be six or seven, the seven that we thought, but they kind of told us you'd probably get 20%. We're like, great, well, if we got two, we'd be thrilled to even have two chances. And then the five days went by and they said all six made it. Wow. And we're like, Okay, we never thought that was going to be the answer, and so it's like, okay, we have we have six children that.

We haven't met yet, but we have six, and the Lord created all six. Yeah, and so we have just chosen to be faithful To use all six.

So that's where it can be a little bit dicey, where people will make. 20, 30 embryos, and then just they'll even test them to get the gender that they want. And we just decided we're not going to test any of them. if they don't work or if there's issues with them or if they're all boys, all girls, that that's what the Lord thought was best for us. Yeah.

I love that you had said, if they became little souls, because that's what embryos are. And as believers, that is definitely what we believe. We believe that life begins at conception. And so that's why, as you'd mentioned, like that is why this can become controversial is because people do create so many of them thinking, oh, I only have a 20 to 30% chance that they will survive. But that's not always the case, as you saw.

And so you had a much greater percentage that did survive. But also, I think for our listeners, it's important to remember what you had said: that they are little souls. And so, in that sense, A miscarriage is an absolute real loss. It's the loss of a unique child that has never been and will never be again created in the image of God. And so as the church We really want to learn how do we come alongside those families that have faced loss of a child in that sense.

and love them through it because I was thinking earlier today that the loss of a child is, it's the deep severance of a child that you've known and loved, but a miscarriage is the deep severance of a child that you loved but never got to know. And as a church, we want to understand that it is still a very real grief.

So after you had two successful IVF transfers, which resulted in two beautiful little boys, you had a third successful IVF transfer. Can you walk us through that pregnancy? Yep, so we transferred our third in November of 2022, was successful. And it's funny, but I was just thinking today, what was I reading? Was that before this one that I was reading in Psalm 16 because we had a women's conference and it was just about the lines have fallen in the places for me so that, you know, nothing is a surprise to the Lord.

So I kind of went into that pregnancy with that just being holding an open hand, thinking, wow, if we're successful three times in a row, that would still be. beating a lot of odds in the IVF world. And so we became pregnant. Everything seemed normal. We found out the gender at 14 weeks.

We did a private ultrasound because. There's not a lot of surprises with IVF, and so we wanted to find out with our family.

So, we took both of our sets of grandparents with us and found out-um, my parents and my husband's parents, and found out it was another little boy. And then we actually went to Texas for three weeks for my husband's work. And just me, and we were, it was just like our family for three weeks with really no distractions. And while we were there, I had an at-home Doppler, and I tried to listen for the heartbeat just because I was like, That's kind of fun. It's you know, I had felt him kick like two days before, I was like around 17 weeks.

And I couldn't find the heartbeat, but I didn't really freak out because I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. I had just felt him kick a day or two before, so I didn't think much of it. I found, I ended up finding the placenta heartbeat. And so I thought, or the, you know, that. And so I thought I found it.

And then we got home from our trip from Texas and I went in for my 19-week ultrasound or not ultrasound, just appointment. And our doctor couldn't find the heartbeat. And right away, I had told her before, I said, something just felt a little off. I felt him kick two weeks ago, but I hadn't felt him kick again. Maybe my placenta's in front.

but I also am very aware with my body just going through the IVF process, you feel everything. And so she found the Doppler or did the Doppler and couldn't find it. She goes, Let's just do an ultrasound. And at that moment, I was alone and I was like, I.

Something's wrong. Like, I didn't, I knew that he was probably gone. And then she put him up on the ultrasound screen. And what, you know, the baby I saw at 14 weeks, who was very wild, was just still. And I called my husband right away.

I said, You need to come. And he came like right away. Of course, he didn't know anything. And I just remember looking at my doctor, and she goes, I am so sorry. I'm like, it is really okay.

Like, I just had this piece of like, he's not here. He's with the Lord. Like, I never thought it would happen, but. This is what happened, and he's not here.

So I have hope. And she just kept saying, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, it is sad, but I really am okay. Um and so we My husband showed up. We called our family while we waited in the waiting room to, or in a private room, to figure out.

Obviously, I was 19 weeks, so the baby was bigger. But based on his measurements, he was around 17 weeks.

So the day that I felt him kick, which I know I did, I think he probably would have died the next day. right around there.

So I'm like, it's a grace that I even got to film once. I'm very thankful for that. Um And because of how far along I was, I needed to have a DNE, not just a DNC.

So my doctor. didn't wasn't able to perform that and I didn't know of any other doctors.

So and I didn't realize at the time that he was gonna send me to an abortion clinic to have this done because of how far along I was. He had just said I was gonna go to a a women's clinic and I was like, great, I'll I'll probably go as soon as I can 'cause I I don't want a dead baby in my belly. And knowing that he had been dead for two weeks, I didn't want to go into labor because I've had two C-sections.

So I just, there was just a lot of complications potentially that I was thinking through: like, we have our other embryos to be faithful.

So let's. Be faithful in this process to make sure my body is okay to hopefully transfer again.

So I went home and we called. The place, and I realized at that time that it was an abortion clinic. And they said, Well, we can get you in next week. And I said, Listen, I am an IVF patient who desperately wanted a baby, and I want to be seen right away to get this fixed. And so they had me come in the next day.

Um And when I walked in, I had my Purse and my water bottle, and there was a security guard. And he was like, You can't take any of that in. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't even take my water bottle. And he said, No, you can't, just your phone. And I was like, Okay, so I went back out and my husband Parker I was like, you may as well go to work.

Like, there's nothing for you to do, and you're not just going to sit in an abortion clinic parking lot waiting for me. And we thought it was just going to, there's, they usually have two appointments.

So, one appointment to be seen, and the next appointment to have the procedure done.

So, I thought I was just being seen to. get the appointment set. And when I went in there, It was really sweet because there was one nurse who came up and she gave me a big hug right away and she was like, I'm the one who I talked to. I talked to you on the phone yesterday and I am so sorry. Just a lot of compassion.

And she took me back and she goes, We're going to try to get this done today.

So I was there at 8 a.m. and sitting in the waiting room and probably saw 30 to 50 ladies come in and out, all ranges of ages, high school to older than me. Um And then they ended up I asked them to do another ultrasound to make sure which they wouldn't show me, but it definitely looked different. Just they showed me a picture and he was definitely in demise of, you know, he's been gone for two weeks.

So I was thankful that they got me in. to do that.

So I I only had my phone so I'm sitting there thinking What am I going to do? Like, I don't have my husband. I'm sitting in a waiting room with a bunch of ladies who seem totally fine who. Who knows how far along they all are? And I'm sitting there just weeping.

But I just was amazed at how much scripture came to mind that I didn't know I knew, and songs that I didn't know I knew. Because that's the only thing I could cling to, the Lord was the only one that was physically with me.

So it was just a comfort. And I there was, I was, I had the thought the night before when I knew I was going there. I'm like, you know what? The Lord has me there for a reason, so I'm going to just evangelize as much as I can. Whatever that looks like, if I can even talk to one lady, I'd be thrilled.

And there was one lady named Tiffany that I remember sitting next to, and I. Asked her, I said, do you have other children? She goes, yeah, I have two at home and I don't really want this one. And my husband really does. And I was just like, Well, you know, having more than one or two children is such a blessing.

I have two at home and I would love to have another one. And I don't know, I don't know what happened with her, but I just remember sitting there praying for each woman that I. I sat next to And so the staff was really gracious. They were really kind. There was actually one lady that said that she had lost twins through IVF and had a very similar situation to me, which was a nurse.

And she just was really kind and compassionate. Um So even though it was super hard, I... The Lord really gave me a lot of comfort that day. As we walked through that. And then, so I was there all day.

My husband didn't know what was going on because I took my phone when I went back for the procedure. And then there were some complications. And finally, he's like calling them, Are you, is she okay? And everything worked out just fine, but. very thankful that it all did because we were able to.

move forward in other transfers, but Very, very hard to think about. Yeah, for those that are listening, you can actually read Zoe's story on hope in the morning.org as well. If you go into our stories section, her story is down there on page two. And one of the things that you say in there, Zoe, is that in that abortion clinic, you were determined to be a light for Christ in the midst of darkness. And that's what we want to be.

That's what we want to be amidst all of our sufferings and our sorrows: is that we can be a light for Christ, saying, just like you did in that ultrasound room, it's going to be okay. I know that Jesus holds my baby. You know, another book resource, real quick, before we go to break that I want people to know about is Safe in the Arms of God by John MacArthur, because that does give so much peace when you know that your little one never suffered the sorrows of this world, that they went straight to the arms of Jesus. And there's an aspect of that that is a severe mercy, really, because As much as it's a heartbreak to us mothers when we lose those babies, We know where they are. They are secured in heaven for us.

So when we come back, we're gonna talk about some practical ways that the church can serve families that face miscarriage and how we can be ministers and lights amidst other people's darkness. Join us again in just a moment on Hope in the Morning. Do you have a heart to comfort the hurting? Do you want to show the world that through Jesus Christ we can have hope in all circumstances?

Well, then we welcome you to visit hopeinthemorning.org and see how you can join us in these ministry endeavors. May you be encouraged by who our God is as you continue this episode of Hope in the Morning. To learn more, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. John 13, 35 says, By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. Do you know how to best love and serve your hurting brother or sister in Christ?

Listen to Hope in the Morning and be equipped to offer the hope of Jesus to every hurting heart. To learn more or partner with our ministry, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. What do you say when a loved one faces deep loss? How do you recover joy when you find yourself in the valley of despair? Learn from honest testimonies of trials and tears, and be encouraged that in Jesus there is hope.

Po in the morning. Visit hopeinthemorning.org for grief resources or to make a donation in your loved one's honor. Welcome back to Hope in the Morning. My guest today, Zoe, found herself at an abortion clinic. for a very different reason.

Than the other mamas that were there. And it was because her little baby boy had passed away in her womb, and she went to deliver him because of COVID. She had to go by herself. And yet the Lord was near. You didn't have your husband by your side, but you had the Lord.

And the Lord was there bringing you comfort. And not only that, but laying on your heart to be praying for these other women, which I think is so beautiful. And Habakkuk 2.3 tells us that there will come a time when your tears will fall. Not because of your troubles, but because God has answered your prayers. And so at this point, you had six embryos that you guys had frozen.

You have used three of them, resulting in three precious little boys: one in the arms of Jesus and two in your arms. Can you walk us through a little bit of that subsequent pregnancy? Because I do want to say here, real quick, that I think that those that haven't experienced miscarriage might not understand the amount of anxiety that can accompany a subsequent pregnancy. pregnancy.

So can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, I I don't know if it was like this for you, but after we lost Colt, it was like, oh, you know, you're hoping that you're gonna have a baby.

So the instant I want another one. Right away is real, and then the thought of, well, will I ever be able to have another one? You know, that's not promised. Like, even our embryos were never promised to us. And so we had to wait three months to just make sure my body was fine.

And we reached out to our IBF doctor. And he was very, very compassionate. He actually called me and was like, I just heard. I'm so sorry. And I said, that's very, very kind.

We would love to transfer again.

So, what's the soonest we can do that? And so he made us wait three months. And then in July of 2023, so. It was beginning of July 5th. We transferred our fourth embryo and it worked again, which is just a Amazing to think four for four is not normal.

And again, it was another little boy, but there was a lot of fear, especially going into my 17, 18, 19-week appointment. Just knowing what had gone on. But right when I walked into my 17-week appointment, my doctor, he was like, All right, we're doing the Doppler. I know what week it is. And right away, he's like, Okay, we're just gonna take a breath, and now we can do the normal appointment.

So he just was super compassionate. They had me see high-risk doctors just to make sure that there was nothing. We didn't know that it could affect this baby, and everything came out fine. And then Based on my due date, I would have been due like middle of March. Of 2024, and I have gone three weeks early because of high blood pressure and preeclampsia with a scheduled C-section.

So my due date ended up being, or I ended up having the baby on March 1st.

So it was just amazing that a year later, not even a year later, I had a baby in my arms. And then a week after that was, you know, Colts, what would we call him this death day? Because that's when we found out.

So it's just the kindness of the Lord, but definitely a lot of anxiety to think, oh, I don't feel sick today. Oh, I do feel sick. I don't feel movement. I do. Yeah.

Did you do any of the like where you would take pregnancy tests and monitor if the line was getting darker? Was that something that you that's kind of what you do in IVF to start with? You usually find out pretty quick. You can, some people don't like to test right away, but you can know within three or four days of doing a transfer if it worked or not. And that's just the reality.

It's like within two days of after doing the transfer, the baby is either alive and implanted or it's gone.

So it's there's it's a lot of knowledge that maybe you don't want to have, but you do have. And so you have to be really careful with it. Yeah. You know, I my experience was similar to yours. I think that That's something that I hope that women that are listening who have gone through miscarriages, or maybe they're in kind of that rainbow baby pregnancy right now.

And for those that don't know what a rainbow baby is, it's a baby that is born after a loss. And maybe they are struggling with those anxieties. And I just want to encourage you: if you are in that season, give that to the Lord. Every time that you go into those ultrasounds or those doctor's appointments, just pray, Lord, please settle my heart. Give me the peace that passes understanding.

Remind yourself, just like Zoe, just like you said with Colt, remind yourself that God is still going to be good, even if. The baby doesn't have a heartbeat that day. He will sustain you, it's gonna hurt. It will. But he will sustain you.

He will be good. He will be faithful to you. And we can trust him. And I think there comes a point where we just have to realize that, and I think you had mentioned this earlier too, Zoe, is that we have to have those open hands. And that can be a very hard thing in pregnancy.

Sometimes I think we don't even realize how tightly our fists are clenched around that little baby because we love that baby. immediately. And you don't realize until the Lord is demanding, open your hands. This baby doesn't belong to you. It belongs to me.

And it's a gift, it's a good gift. You know, James tells us that every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights, and he has no shifting shadow. His character does not change just because our circumstances do.

So asking you Just in a practical sense, what are some ways that the church can serve families that have gone through a miscarriage and the loss of a baby? in in that regard. The very practical ones are meals. I mean, just physically, as I was recovering and even just emotionally, every day was different. It was really helpful just to have, I had a lot of friends just drop off meals, whether it was lunch or dinner.

And my kids were little still, three and like one and a half.

So they didn't know what was going on. And I mean, a little bit, but not a lot.

So that was just a practical thing. I know it was just my mom, but she came over a lot just to sit. And it was like, I just cried. And either it was her taking the kids outside, but I felt like that was helpful for me. Cause I'm like, it's hard to know when the grief's going to hit.

Sometimes it's random. There was times where it was in church when you're singing a song and you're like, why am I bawling my eyes out right now? I don't want to be doing this.

So just practical to help out with if there are older kids to give the mom some. time alone to even process. I remember I had a full day to myself where I was like, okay, I need to sit here and just and think, like actually process and think about it because it's easy just to not want to think about it. And that was helpful for me personally. we had we so with abortion in clinic, we had to pay out of pocket.

They don't take insurance. And so they had told us it was going to be like $1,700 to have the procedure done because the baby had measured at 17 weeks. And for us, it was like, that's an unexpected expense. And so they ended up coming down the price. But all of my friends, we had a tight group of friends that knew what was going on.

And they. Gave it ended up being like $900, and they gave us $900 cash to cover what had happened. And so. That was just a blessing.

So, you don't really think about maybe the medical expenses that go into losing a baby, whether it's hospital because you're having a DNC or.

However, it ends up happening, there are medical expenses.

So that was just a huge blessing that we never thought would happen. That same group also gave us a little gift basket of some books and devotionals and even a gift card to go on a date night and then free babysitting.

So it was. Just really thoughtful of time for my husband and I to have together um to Get away a little bit. Yeah, I think that is a good point. That people, again, if you haven't walked through a miscarriage personally, I think it's hard to understand that If you're past about six weeks, maybe seven weeks, if you're past that point, there are going to be medical expenses associated with your miscarriage, and they can be pretty high. And honestly, that ends up being sort of a Insult to injury.

You know what I mean? Because here you're getting these medical bills, but every medical bill is a reminder of the baby that you so. Wanted. You know, you so had prepared room in your heart and your family for, and yet that's not what the Lord had ordained for your life. You know, another thing for those again that are going through this, that maybe you're in the midst of a miscarriage right now.

God God will be good. He will see your weeping. It's okay to bring that before the Lord. It's okay to cry over that baby. It's okay to mourn that child.

I think for generations, for whatever reason, miscarriages were kind of a hush-hush thing. It was something that was not really spoken about. We've learned that more in our generation. it that more women had miscarriages than we realized. And it's something that when we can come alongside other women, And we can say, you know, I've been through that as well.

Even for me, like one of the things that was helpful was the night before I had my DNC was having other people who had gone through it actually message me and say, Here's what you can expect. Because you don't know what to expect, and you really can't even Google a whole lot. And even if you do, everything you're gonna Google is going to show up like as an abortion practice, which just It's gut-wrenching. when you so want this baby. And like you had said in your written story.

Satan, he is a deceiver. He is the father of all lies. And he wants to whisper things to our minds and our hearts. You know, even having that ultrasound that you had, that final ultrasound that you had before they did deliver Colt through DE. There's a reassurance in that because you can know, okay, he really is with the Lord.

I am not causing his demise, he's with the Lord. The Lord chose the length of his days. Um What would you say? You know, we talked about some of the practical ways to minister to people that have gone through miscarriage and the loss of a baby in that way. What would you say is the most painful reaction in the face of that loss?

I think that there's a few. There's some friends that would be like, well, you can just have another one. Or maybe you need to wait. You need to give your body time. And it's like, that's not what I want.

Or they just don't talk about it. I think that's probably the most hurtful, is where they would not acknowledge. I remember we had some friends over, and it was like they never said one word to us. And it was like it had been a few weeks. And it's like, are you even acknowledging what we're going through?

I love that you're here, but you also are like not in it with us. Yeah. And there are definitely some ladies who would prefer not to talk about it.

So I think that's kind of what I've learned: some ladies like to talk about it, and they like to. it helps them, but there are some that that don't, that would rather keep it more private. And that's totally okay, too.

So I think even just asking the question, Do you want to talk about it? I'm happy to talk about it. Or if you don't, we don't have to but just know that i am here if you do want to talk I completely agree with you. And I think for our listeners, that's something It's good for us to get uncomfortable.

Sometimes, to actually enter someone else's grief and to say, just as simply as you just said, Zoe, to say, I'm here if you want to talk about it. Do you want to tell me about your story? Do you want to tell me where you're at with your grief right now? Or saying, How can I pray for you? And one of the most comforting things I think that we can do as believers.

Is not just saying, How can I pray for you, but actually, like, Call them or go over to their house, bring a coffee, bring a meal to them and say, Can I pray with you? Can I pray for you right now?

So often we mean well when we say, I'll be praying for you, but then we don't, right? In the busyness of our lives, we go off and we don't. But what a beautiful thing when we can carry someone else's burdens to the throne of Christ. And that is what we are instructed to do. We're instructed to sit with each other in the ashes, to bring each other's petitions before the Lord.

That's what selfless love looks like. You know, and in John it tells us that we will be known that we are his disciples by the way that we love one another. And that's one of the ways that we can love each other. And even going back to what we had said at the beginning, is that. Each one of those embryos or every baby, every life that God creates is a soul.

It is a unique human life. It is a baby. It just is at different developmental stages. And so we need to mourn with one another As if they lost a child because you did lose a child. And that's a very heartbreaking loss to go through, and yet it can be very isolating.

because people, because they didn't actually meet that baby and hold that baby. I think they tend to feel more disconnected from it and For those of you that are listening to the radio broadcast, I would encourage you to tune in on Tuesday anywhere that you listen to podcasts. You can listen to us, or you can go to Hope in the Morning Backstage on YouTube. Click and subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. But we're going to continue this conversation, and I want to conclude the radio portion of this with something that I saw in your story, Zoe.

It was one of your favorite. Passages, and it's one of mine too. And I think any mom who is going through or has gone through a miscarriage will just see the tenderness of these words. And it's in Psalm 139, and it says, For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you, because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Your eyes saw my unformed body all the days ordained for me were written in your book, before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God How vast is the sum of them Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake I am still with you. I think that's such a beautiful passage that can be a reminder to those of us that have babies in the arms of God.

So Zoe, what are some things, if anything, that you guys do each year to remember and honor Colt? Honestly, we've just talked to our kids more about it. As they're getting older, too, it's funny how my middle child doesn't remember anything. I mean, he was too little. He's like, who is that?

But it's a great opportunity to share. No, you do have another brother and. um so we've just talked about it more as the time comes we we haven't ever done anything in particular Um for him, but I think that's just more of where we're at with it. Did you and your husband grieve the loss of Colt differently? Yeah, we did.

I remember I was very, very emotional, and I remember saying, Well, you just don't understand. And he's like, Actually, that's not true. If anything, I understand the most with you. And so that was a helpful for me: men do grieve differently. Maybe he wasn't as emotional as me, but he definitely was grieving and trying to figure out how to help me practically and just spiritually walking me through it.

So it grew him in a lot of ways, just as a leader in our home. Did it did your husband have any friends or any men in the church that came alongside him in that season? Yeah, we definitely reached out to a lot of different couples that had walked through things with us. And so he had met with a few of them and Even just asking, like, I don't really know how to help her. Yeah.

So that was helpful of just. giving me time and and asking me about it. Because it's easy to not talk about it sometimes, but we really tried to go against that grain and And talk about what the thoughts were, and even thinking through the next steps of a next baby and getting on the same page of that, because it was a real. topic of convers conversation after the loss. I think for the men that are listening, and actually we have a pretty decent amount of men that listen to our show, which is wonderful because it's the men that lead the families through the grief.

And just as you had mentioned, your husband was grieving too, just grieving in a different way. And so it's important that men remember to come alongside other men too, whether it is, you know, the loss of a wife or the loss of a child, the loss of a job, the loss of good health. It's really important that they come alongside and offer strength so that that man can go forward and be renewed and be the strength in his family as well. And You know, strength does not look like what what we think From a society. Standpoint, you know, strength can be tears.

You know, as far as men go, it can strengthen hugging your wife when she's having a hard moment and saying, I'm going to sit with you in your grief, even though I may not be feeling that at this moment. But that's what it looks like to be the body of Christ. Is to love one another, to set our own agendas aside, whether that is that we are the friend or the spouse. We want to set our own agenda aside and love each other well. I mean, that's one of the main reasons why Hope in the Morning exists, is because we want to learn how we love each other.

intentionally And how do we love each other effectively? And that's why it's important to talk about some of the things like you shared today, Zoe, about what is actually hurtful. Because some you know, some people might think Oh, I'm not gonna say anything because I might say the wrong thing. And if I say something wrong, then I'm gonna really hurt her feelings. Or I'm not going to say his name.

because then that's going to make her sad. And But for most people that have lost a loved one, Saying their name It's actually kind of a unique gift. because it acknowledges that that they were that they existed. and that they had value. And so I think in those instances, if we can With humility and grace, come alongside and say, you know, when this was said, This was not helpful.

This was hurtful. That's something that can actually edify the church and. build us up so that we are a stronger unit together.

So, you know, I will say there was, I had two friends reach out after, and what was helpful is they asked about future kids and just acknowledged, like, one in particular was like, How are you thinking through your other embryos? Like, do you feel nervous about doing that? Do you feel excited? Like, do you have a timeline? And it was pretty soon after our miscarriage, but it was like, Thank you for acknowledging that we have we do have Other embryos waiting for us to use them.

And it's not just this hidden thing. And we've been very open about our IVF situation with all of our friends, but. Just to acknowledge that there is a desire for other children was helpful because. it's a real thing that you're trying to process like. I'm sad that I lost a babe, but I want another baby, and it's okay to want another baby, it doesn't minimize that he's gone.

Right. Just the torn feelings that it's okay to process and think about the future. Yeah. Yeah. And your fourth son, which you did end up going forward and having a fourth son, does not, he doesn't replace Colt, but what, what a blessing from the Lord to yet again open your womb and allow you to have a son.

Again, and as you said, it's so rare in the IVF community to have four consecutive successful transfers. And one of the things, too, I want to plug in real quick because some people might not know this, we had talked about how. How IVF can be controversial, and you had mentioned that sometimes people will fertilize and create. 20, 30 embryos. But for those of you listening that may not know, you can actually adopt.

Embryos. You can actually adopt a baby in that way, and you can be pregnant with that child. And so, for believers out there, that maybe you are having struggles with creating your own biological family, and you're thinking, I would love to be pregnant. I would love to experience all of that, but the Lord is not allowing that in a natural way right now. We know maybe we're called to adoption.

Maybe you're called to adopt an embryo. That's an option. That is something that I think a lot of people don't know about, but it's a very viable option.

So With with that, you know, knowing that you had I guess it was what two other embryos? Three had three at that point. When you lost Colt, you had three embryos left. And so you had another one that was transferred, and you had another beautiful little boy with that. And how, we talked about some of your anxious thoughts that you had.

How did you combat some of those? And how can we encourage other people going through that subsequent pregnancy? We just decided from a very early stage of IVF, even with our first child, is when we got that first positive test, which we had never seen before, that we were just going to rejoice because that's all we knew is that there was a life inside of me. And we would do that until we knew that there wasn't. And so we've kind of gone forward with that with each pregnancy: we're going to take it day by day.

And today we know that there's a baby and we're going to rejoice. And if tomorrow we know that there's not, then the Lord knew that that was best.

So just trying to remind myself every day is. That's why we share very early of we're pregnant, you know, we've had an extra early with IVF.

So it's like, there's no surprise in it, but um we just try to rejoice every day and so just Being really, I had to be really prayerful because it was very easy to let my mind go, and even being open with my husband of like, today is really hard for me. And you know, then he was able to come alongside and ask questions of like, what made it hard? How can I pray for you? Let's pray together right now. Um and just being thoughtful about it and being open about the struggles instead of internally trying to Just just hide it and that would just make it a lot worse.

You know, telling people early You know, we know not everyone wants to do that. Not everybody is comfortable doing that. There is there is I would say that there's a wisdom in that because you don't know. We're not guaranteed, as you had mentioned, we are not guaranteed that those lives are going to. Come into our hands.

We don't know that. We don't know if they are going to be born into the arms of Jesus or that we are going to get to love and nurture them here on earth. But when you go through a miscarriage, You need people to come alongside you. It actually does lessen the sting to have people that come alongside you that can come help shoulder your burden. And so.

when when you've kept that to yourself and the first time that you're telling people is when you're announcing a loss, I think it's harder for people to connect with you in that loss when the first time they're learning of this pregnancy is after the loss. But if they can rejoice with you in the beginning when you first get that positive test. I think that it is more natural for them to mourn with you when when that baby does not come to be held in your arms. Um What were some of the books or resources that encouraged you during that time?

So, I listened to like the week after we had the procedure, I actually listened to The Risen Motherhood. They had just put out a thing on miscarriage because I was kind of like, I feel like I'm the only one, even though I had a friend who had had many, and she's the one who sent it to me. She goes, Whenever you feel like you can listen to it, listen to it. But I remember like, well, I got nothing else to do right now.

So, I may as well listen to it and figure out why this happened, which you still don't know. But that was one resource that was super helpful. And then another one that I, through that podcast, was the book Held by Abby Wedgworth. And so, I got it, and it was hard to read here and there because there's just stories that are sad in it. But through it, just walking through Psalm 139, and I know Psalm 139 is easy to think about, just the baby inside of you.

But I felt like for me personally, it was how does the Lord think about me? And he knows every feeling that I'm feeling. Every emotion that I'm feeling, and it's by no mistake, and it's going to make me more like him. And so that was just a really. A really big blessing to me.

So now, whenever I do hear of people that have miscarriages throughout the church, I usually send it to them and if they already have it or if they don't have it, just because I'm like, this really helped me. Read it when you can because it can, some people don't want to read it right away and it's hard, or maybe it will really help you, but it just helped me know that I wasn't alone and it is very common. Yeah, yeah. I actually have a copy of it here.

So I'm going to show it for those that are watching on YouTube just so you can see. See if I can get it straight.

So you can see what that book is. It's called Held. And it's got actually like journaling prompts and everything in it, too. And so it says it's 31 biblical reflections on God's comfort and care in the sorrow of miscarriage. And it's not a big read.

You know, it's a nice, like, it feels digestible. It doesn't feel like it's going to be overwhelming or heavy in that time. Um I believe that this was something that we were gifted as well. And another thing that I think it is a great gift. I don't know if this was something that you utilized or if it helped you, but when we had ours, the one that was farthest along, someone sent us like a really nice heating pad.

and a box of really nice tea. And You know, you would think, like, I wouldn't think to send a heating pad, but you have to, you have to heal from a DNE or a DNC as well. And it was such a thoughtful gift. And even like, even to this day, it's like every time that I drink that tea. I think about what a loving gift for somebody to send.

And I think, you know, doing gifts like that, and then along with that book that you'd recommend, held, that's a great, that's a great gift that you can send to somebody and just show them, like, you're on my mind, you're on my heart, and you're in my prayers. And, um, So you're saying that that's something that you send now when you hear that somebody has gone through a miscarriage. Do you find that now that you've been through one, that you minister differently to other women when you find that they're going through one? Yeah, I feel like before, I mean, I never thought that I would have one, and I didn't really know. How to talk to him, or even what was helpful, what unhelpful.

And I had a friend who had a very traumatic miscarriage. And I came back to her after we lost Colt and just was like, I am really sorry that I was not a better friend because. I didn't know how to help you and I know we don't live in the same state, but I I never even followed up very well.

So it just was. helpful for me to be like here There is something unique about going through a miscarriage because you really don't know until you've been in it of just how hard it is. And so. Yeah, it definitely has helped me just have more of a compassion. Like, you get it.

I had multiple friends like right around the time that I lost Cole also lose their babies and so we kind of walked through that together. Which was hard, but also very sweet to know we all get it. We get the emotions, we get physically what you're going through. Um Yeah. I think that's great.

And I think that that's a way that we can comfort others with the comfort by which we've been comforted. Whether it is sharing with them the scriptures that helped you, or the practical things of saying, oh, if you're going in for a DNE, this is what you need to prepare for, or this is what you can expect afterwards. That is such a loving thing to come alongside people in that because it's a very vulnerable time. when you're yeah when you're going through those things and You don't have control. And I think as mamas, we need to remind ourselves that, like, we don't ever have control, right?

In a whether it's in a healthy pregnancy or a miscarriage or the children that God has entrusted to our care. Here, Earth said, We do not have control over them. As Psalm 139 said, their days are numbered and ordained by God, every one of them. And it's so it's so easy as moms to Cling to those things and feel like we have to do everything just right. Or sometimes, unfortunately, when we go through miscarriages.

Again, I think that lies are whispered to our minds: what did we do wrong? What did I do that could cause this? I think it's not uncommon for us women to think, what did I eat in those weeks? What did I, what exercise did I do? Was I around, would I have inhaled any chemicals?

Like, what caused this? Like, that's what we always want to. We want the answers. And sometimes God says, you know what? I'm going to prepare you for these trials.

But I'm not going to Take them from you. And you had said, even at the conference that you were at before, where you heard Psalm 16. And the Lord used that to help prepare your heart. And he does that so often. Because the trials the trials are often what make us more Christ-like.

It allows us to see his character in a way that We can't see it in the good times. You know, scripture talks about how it's more beneficial to be in a house of mourning than in a house of dancing. And part of that is because Oftentimes we are brought to our knees before the Lord.

so much more often when we're in a season of suffering. And that's where we should be at all times, but the reality is in our humanity we're not. When things are going really well, we just We feel like we've got it. But it's like when we can acknowledge, when we go through those seasons where were forced to acknowledge. that we don't have control.

it leads us to the one that we know does have control.

So, Zoe, as we wrap up here, I would just kind of love to know what your hopes are for your future, for the little boys that the Lord has entrusted to you. For Colt's testimony that you get to be a steward of? What are your hopes? You know, I I was just thinking it's His death has brought a lot of conversations with my now five and a half year old, where we've talked about it more, but I've told him many times, well, I know that I will get to meet your brother Colt. Like, I have assurance.

I know. And recently he goes, Well, how do you know that? Like, how do you, why do you know that you're saved?

So it's just, I remember one of my friends was like, you never know how your baby's death will impact your other kids and how they could even be saved because of it. And watching you guys walk through the trial.

So I hope that we are really faithful in bringing that up to them and just. You know, showing that we know that he's in heaven, we have hope and we believe the Bible, and we have assurance that we're saved, so we will get to meet him, and we pray that you will too. And so, that's you know, the hope is we're playing those little seeds in their hearts that. They can someday have assurance that they will get to meet their brother as well. Um as far as our future plans, we're we're Preparing for our next transfer to be faithful to our next little embryo.

And we have two left.

So just trying to be faithful in that. it's a it's a hard place to be in where right now just knowing we've gone four for four that's uncommon and so we don't want to just presume it's going to work again but you in my mind it's easy like well it's not going to work because it's already worked four times and so it's just holding that hand open and saying lord whatever you have is is best for us so whether that means we we don't get to meet any more of the embryos even if you know we transfer them and they don't work or we get to meet both of them yeah so just trying to hold an open palm and and being faithful uh going forward because that's what we're called to do and Also, just keep remembering that the Lord made all six with knowing that we would not meet Colt for sure, and we don't know about the other two yet, but. He makes no mistakes. And so. We're just called to be faithful.

Yeah. Well, you know, when I read your written story, which again, for those of you that are watching this or listening on the podcast, you can go to hopeinthemorning.org and you can see if you tap on what we do, down below that is, I think it's entitled Stories or Reader's Stories. And you can find her story on page two. And it's the same title as this, which is Surrender in the Stillness. But the reason why...

We titled it Surrender in the Stillness, Zoe, is because You You portray so beautifully in your written story, and I think here in your interview as well, that you desire to have those open hands, that you desire to surrender. Everything that the Lord has entrusted to you, whether it's the children that you have here or the stillness of there being no heartbeat and you being able to turn to the Lord and say, It's okay. I can surrender this to you. That's not an easy thing. It's not something that just because we are Christians.

That it's going to come naturally all the time. It doesn't come naturally all the time. And That's something that we We all want to grow in. And I think that your story is so beautiful. I would really encourage everybody to go and read your full story.

Because this is just a little sampling of your story, really, that you wrote. And I love that you say you don't know what the Lord has for those other babies, but. You know that the Lord has given you six babies. And some of them, some of them may be in the arms of Jesus and some in your arms, but. Each one is a gift.

And so I so appreciate you being willing to not only share your story so vulnerably today, but being willing to use it as a testimony that can encourage the church, but also equip those that are listening that have never walked through a miscarriage or who may never walk through a miscarriage so that they can know more readily how to be the hands and feet of Jesus to those within the church or even outside the church. How do we minister? How do we minister in a way that says we're his, we belong to him, and And we love you. And so I really appreciate you sharing your story and sharing Colt's story. And again, I would encourage all of you guys to go read her story on hope in the morning.org.

Zoe, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting, equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved one's honor. Please visit hopeinthemorning.org.

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