Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed substance. and all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. These poetic words from Psalm one hundred and thirty nine speak to the care and attention the Lord takes with the unborn.
All life is created in the image of God, and all loss of life is worthy of weeping. Joining us today to talk about misunderstandings in miscarriage and how we can minister to one another is obstetrician Dr. Nicholas Schoenbachler. Thank you for joining us today, Nick. Thank you for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
So, I wanted to start with one of the questions that, you know, as someone that's had multiple miscarriages, I think. is kind of a misunderstanding, which is If you can break down for us the basics of what a chemical pregnancy is in layman's terms. When I when I hear the term chemical pregnancy, usually Um someone's referring to a pregnancy that was Very early where um If you had had an ultrasound, you wouldn't see anything. But a pregnancy test would have been positive. And then the miscarriage that follows, so maybe a week after when someone would have normally expected to have their cycle.
Um then usually that would have been referred to as a chemical pregnancy.
So very, very early miscarriage. Yeah. And in your Christian perspective, is that a legitimate loss? Yeah, I would absolutely say so. Um I think from a Christian biblical worldview, we would hold that life begins at conception.
So at the. Point of fertilization, we would say that's a life, that's a human life. Um And so Even if that Pregnancy ends. In a few days, a few hours. um a few weeks then then we would hold uh as Christians we would say that absolutely that's a a legitimate pregnancy, um Certainly.
Did you realize when you decided to become an obstetrician, did you realize the level of counseling that you would be taking on with that role? I did. I don't think Okay. Yeah. Looking back, I don't think I realized How frequent that would occur, you know, when you think about um what the studies show as far as the number or the percentage of miscarriages, it's probably 10 up to 15 percent of pregnancies that end in a miscarriage.
And so on a day-to-day basis, uh in practice you you see it more commonly than uh you would have you would have an maybe anticipated it early in my training as a medical student or something. And then that experience, I certainly didn't have any knowledge of s what that would look like. day to day and and and having that encounter with families. Um early on. And so, um yeah.
So, I know a lot of your patients, you know, you may have some that are believers and some that are unbelievers, and so. How do you prepare for your job knowing that you're going into your day-to-day work? Celebrating people's highest highs, giving birth to healthy babies and their lowest lows, you know, expecting a healthy baby and that not being the outcome. How do you prepare for that? I think.
Just zooming out, I feel like all of my days, whether I'm in the office or I mean or just spending time with my family, they they begin the same and uh with an aim of just a communion with God. And so um spending time in his word, uh reading the scriptures, uh spending time in prayer. And then If focusing my heart and mind towards heading to the office or heading to the hospital. Then I'm I'm really always just Uh I try to be mindful to ask the Lord for his help and recognizing we're all dependent on on him For all things pertaining to life and godliness and His grace. I think just asking the Lord to help me, um Prepare me for my day.
Like the Lord knows, even that past, like, He knows all of my days, so He knows the. The encounters I'll have the the situations that patients will be involved in and So I always want to be Uh approach those situations not just to clinical, but I want to be Uh kind and loving in the situation that someone's in uh Going through. Yeah. So the Word of God and prayer would be the foundation of preparing every day, certainly. Yeah, I mean, I think that that is so important, you know, to be able to have a doctor that not only prepares scripturally, but even just from a medical standpoint, being able to have somebody that has an empathetic standpoint because you know, oftentimes in our work when something can kind of become Maybe a little bit more commonplace because you're dealing with it day in and day out.
But. You know, even for my husband and I, we can speak from personal experience that you were very empathetic toward us when we went through that situation. And it makes a big difference because you feel like you're seen and you're heard, and your situation is not just another case. You know, it's another life, is what that is. And what would you say are some scriptures that you would advise people to cling to, especially believers?
What can they cling to when they're facing a miscarriage? Yeah, I think that. Uh I I would I always think about just the foundation of what I hold to. Before that event occurs in someone's life, like, what do I know about? And you read Psalm 139, which I think is a verse for everyone to store away in their heart and minds.
That God knew all of my days before there was one, that He ordered them. He knows the end from the beginning.
So this. realization that that God is sovereign over all of life. We see that in Genesis. God breathes life into Adam. He is the giver of life.
You see that with Jacob and Rachel, that he opens the womb. He's the one who closes the womb. Um So in in his Providence, then he orders a pregnancy and and to to whatever end, um That he has designed it for. And so I think that that's the most important foundation when I can. trust in that I can um believe and hoping that that that is true for all of life.
every every trial, every situation, but especially in pregnancy as well. Um but then I also think about Familiar passages like Romans 8:28, that he's using all things for our good. that we might be uh conformed to the image of his son and so Even in the despair of a loss of pregnancy, that for the Christian, he's using that in his mysterious ways for my good. Yeah. Uh in that it's in du it's in producing a um Christ-likeness in my life.
Um Another passage I think about is in in Second Corinthians four where Paul says this What he says is, and I would caution someone if they're going to encourage someone to share this verse because it can come off as. Callous, but when he says, uh this light momentary affliction is preparing for us. an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. As we look not to things that are seen, but to things that are unseen. And so It doesn't, you know, Paul's not saying there is that your trial is small or that the the suffering is light in that sense, but But when I compare My situation Yeah.
glory being in the presence of God, uh with them forever and all eternity. Then compared to that, then things are light.
So I think just Those would be two several verses that come to my mind. Just um Just to have deep and some stored up in someone's mind and heart that they can just rest upon. It doesn't make the grief less. It doesn't make the the morning less. But I can hope in God and what He has said.
Yeah. You know, one of the passages that we clung to the most in our miscarriages was Psalm 139. And one of the things I love about it is oftentimes we think, oh, their life was cut short. But in reality, they lived the fullness of their days. It just was that that was how many days the Lord ordained for them.
And it doesn't mean that their life didn't have a purpose, even with it being such a short life. But Also going back to the passage in 2 Corinthians that you mentioned, You know, we We believe that our babies are with the Lord. And so What a beautiful thing that the Lord has secured those children for us. And I think that that is such an encouraging thing for people that have gone through miscarriage. Having been in this in this practice now for was it about ten years?
Uh I've been practic uh Counting training as well will be ten years as long as six years. out of training. What would you say are some ways that you have seen husbands encourage their wives along the way? Yeah, I think um I think w uh one, most importantly, We can all Pray for our spouses more, pray for our wives more. I think, especially in that, that a husband should pray for his wife that he goes before the Lord to bring her name to the Lord's remembrance.
And to do that frequently and often, I think about my own self as a husband, and probably all men feel this way. we by nature when something's Seems to be off, we just want to fix it.
So you could insert any. Any situation you're working through as a family or anything around the home. We just want to fix it. Even a loss. It's like, well, there's grief, there's something going on, let's just make it better.
And so sometimes that's probably not the most helpful thing. I know I've. Uh In my own marriage, I dealt with that where it's like, I just wanted to resolve whatever's going on, where really. I could have just listened more or allow the tears to just flow more and just let time work its course because oftentimes that's what. Um Where's in the situation of a loss or a miscarriage, then certainly like There just needs to be time to heal.
And so I think a husband can help by listening and just being supportive in that regard, but most importantly, praying for. That's why. Yeah. What are some of the attributes of God that you would counsel a couple facing miscarriage to focus on? Yeah.
I would think first that, and I mentioned it earlier, it's just God's providence. And so, wrapped up in that is His omniscience, His. Omnipotence is It's omnipresence, that he's just He knows all, he is all-powerful, he is In all places, all times, and so that's the first.
So knowing that this hasn't happened. Outside of the ordering of a sovereign God. That's the first I think of. Uh the second I would would think of is is God's love. Um You know, I think of in that as Is the the clearest picture of that's his grace towards us in Christ.
The verse comes to mind where he says, He who did not spare his own son, how will he not also? with him graciously give us all things. And and the example is he's He did not spare his son. Like, he he gave his very son. that we might be counted righteous.
So certainly in this This suffering, this time, like he will supply what is needful. Yeah. Um And then secondly, just his just his goodness, his kindness. Just remembering that he is a he is a good Imperfect. Kind God, a loving Father to us.
Um And and even in the darkest of times, that It is true that he is good and he does good. Yeah. And he does not do wrong. He does not do evil. And so those would be some of the attributes I think of.
That's wonderful. When we return, we're going to talk about some misunderstandings in miscarriage and how we can uniquely minister to those around us that are suffering the miscarriage. Do you have a testimony of hope? Perhaps you've walked through depression or addiction. Maybe you were diagnosed with a serious illness or have suffered the life-altering death of a loved one.
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Now, if you've lost a loved one, you can donate in their honor. Simply put their name in the memo portion of your donation. And we'll read these names on future episodes of Hope in the Morning. And may you be reminded of the goodness and faithfulness of God as you continue this episode of Hope in the Morning. This is a poem that I wrote after my most recent miscarriage, and it's called In His Keeping.
I have a secret sorrow Deep within my soul, For I have loved a little one that no one else will ever know. I was the only home That ever held your frame, As you were woven in the secret place And only Jesus knew your name. Though never held against my chest while I hummed a lullaby, I offered countless prayers for you in the stillness of the night. My heart will always wonder why your heart could not keep beating. and it will always bring a sober thought that each precious life is fleeting.
So with open hands that longed for you, I'll praise them through my weeping, And in my sorrow offer praise, For you are in His keeping. Hmm. What are some common Misunderstandings and miscarriage. Yeah, I I think that um The the two most common things that come up will be first, um A mom will often ask, Is there anything I did to cause the miscarriage? And outside of Exchange.
Extreme circumstances like drug abuse or something, then the vast majority of miscarriages are. Or could, or nothing that a mom did to cause that. That comes up very regularly as a question. The second would be what what could we have done to prevent it? And and unfortunately in in the vast majority of those pregnancies as well, there's there's not anything you you can intervene uh to prevent that loss.
Um And so those are probably the two biggest misconceptions I see. Did I cause it? And then what could we have done to prevent that? Yeah. Which is, you know, it's hard.
It's like you go back to wanting to. Fix something. You want to be able to intervene to do something. Yeah, and I think it's almost like a two-sided coin because it's like, on the one hand, like you're saying, you want there to be some sort of answer of like, how could I fix this? How could I prevent this from happening in the future?
But on the other hand, there's a comfort in knowing that, like, you you likely didn't do anything that caused it. And you know, even You know, you hear the statistics now that are pretty pretty prevalent around that miscarriages happen to one in four. And that's that's what a lot of people say. I think Prior to the last couple of years, where miscarriage became more of a topic that was openly discussed. A lot of people didn't realize how common miscarriages are.
Yeah, and I think to that point, you know, often people ask me, it seems like a very common question in practice: is someone says, was it okay to tell my family or my friends and I I usually err on the side of you should probably tell someone as soon as you find out you're pregnant.
So, because you know, no, it's just different for everybody, and I. would answer that question. In a general sense to guide him. But I do think it's important, especially from a a Christian perspective, that people in your life know and so that.
However, the pregnancy whatever happens to the pregnancy, there's people who can can Um Love on you and speak into your life the word of God and to pray for you. And so I usually are on the side of saying maybe you should tell people sooner than later. Yeah. For that reason. I think that's really good advice because I think whether it's going through a healthy first trimester, which is rough for a lot of women, just with nausea and exhaustion and maybe balancing other children and other household tasks as well.
Or if you lose a baby during that time, you do, you need that support system. And you know, along with that, I would ask you, What are some ways that you have maybe witnessed people uniquely minister to tan intangible ways to people who have gone through miscarriage? Mm. Um I think, um I think within the church that there's always a Um The church seems to serve families well, whether it's you know, you see it most frequently on the when someone's had a baby, they'll come around and provide meals, but but on the other hand, it's like people, you know, it's an it's an it's a sweet way to serve a family, bringing them a meal, but it allows you to have an interaction with them or pray for them or. To speak to them.
But that's probably one of the most tangible ways I see a church through a family. Um And and just it and observing people just Give someone a hug, you know, and and let them know you're praying for 'em and uh to give that encouragement. Those are just practical, tangible things I see people do. I think that's great. And you know, again, as someone that's gone through miscarriage, I'll throw in there like if they did name the baby.
Saying their name, I think, is is a helpful thing because it it gives It gives validation to the fact that that was a life, you know, and even I know not everybody names their miscarried babies. My husband and I chose to name all of ours. And part of that was because we felt like that gave Validity and dignity to their life, no matter how long it was. You know, we've had miscarriages that ranged from seven weeks to. twelve and a half weeks and um You know, for us, that almost puts a little bit of a, I don't want to say closure, but it kind of gives like, Okay, there's a comfort in that, especially as a mom.
I found a comfort in that. And so, you know, as with any loss. I would say, don't hesitate to say their name, whether they're a husband, or a wife, or a child that was six when they passed away, or someone that was unborn. that that's important in those in those instances. What are some things that What are some ways that you have seen husbands grieve that maybe peop people aren't aware of?
Yeah. I I think that, you know, in the in the unique Position that the Lord allows me to be in people's life. And you alluded to this earlier by saying the Uh uh Yeah. of a of an expected pregnancy. That's what people were generally coming in to the office on the day when they find out they're having a miscarriage is is they're expecting to see a heartbeat and they're expecting to see something there.
And so the high of that Compared to the love of that of that moment in time. Um It's a great golf. I mean, it's vast. And so I think that. To see husbands weep and you see them mourn and grieve, and I think that's.
what I see the most and You know, people were very unguarded, most of the time, unguarded in that situation. And also, just. The truth that whether you know that we hold to as Christians, which you talk about, like. that they're every pregnancy, every human being in the womb is a is an image bearer. We believe that and hold to that, but From the world from the would say it doesn't.
But it in reality when they face a miscarriage, you see that Oh, they did hold. You do actually believe deep down that every life in the womb is a is a child. And so you see that. That becomes starkly clear when someone's encountered with that. I think that's a really interesting perspective that you just said because.
deep down, you know, even um a mere Christianity. C. S. Lewis, he talks about how we have this intrinsic knowledge within us of who we are in Christ. And we suppress that truth and unrighteousness, as Scripture says, but At the core, we know that we are created in God's image and that every baby, every human being is a unique.
And one of a kind human being, never to happen again. And so in that, in that. sense, I would also love to transition to the fact um that you know what's considered a rainbow baby. Can you explain what a rainbow baby is? Um there's If I'm right, it's the the trout after a miscarriage.
Yeah, yes. Yeah, they call it that because they say the miscarriage is like a time of storm. And then you have this rainbow that comes after the storm. But I think there's also a misunderstanding that once you have a rainbow baby, The pain of your miscarriage goes away, that you forget about that because now you have this joyful thing, which is true. What has been your experience with that, with people having pregnancies after?
I think that certainly there is a joy. In And The Success of a pregnancy that is new. But generally, there's always a It's it's I can you would say that it's a it's a Uh a loss uh but uh A child has occurred in someone's life. And they would always hold to that. I think that there's a.
that when brought to remembrance there's a s a sadness that comes back even in a new pregnancy um And I think that's a natural response to you know, w what ultimately you see and in in a miscarriage and pregnancy loss and I'm sure you've we've talked you've talked about on your shows before that that this is the effects of the fall. Sin has affected everything. Uh on earth. And And so when we experience that, we're We're seeing the effect of Sin upon the earth, and the appropriate response is to mourn and to grieve and to. For the Christian to set our minds towards heaven.
I was thinking about just in Isaiah 65 when Talking about the new heavens and the new earth. The verse that says No more shall there be in the In it, an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days. Um It's that there is a day coming where all wrongs will be made right, and even in Revelation, where there's no more mourning, there's no more tears, there's no more suffering, and all things. or made new in its final state. And so it makes us ultimately as Christians look towards heaven and and May we live heavenly minded is ultimately.
Yeah, I I love that. I think that when when you have had a loss as well and you go on to have another pregnancy, there are fears that you have to combat. It's gonna make me cry now because There's a fear that comes in every time that you go for an ultrasound. You're waiting for there not to be a heartbeat. Because you've experienced that.
Um But it gives us an opportunity to lay it before the Lord and say, Lord, this is not. You know, I didn't bring this life to be. It's in the Lord's hands, and it can be so hard to hold our hands. openly before the Lord and say this is not It's not my will, but your will. Yeah.
And so with that, you know, if we keep a a heavenly perspective And we know that The pains that we experience in this world are passing, but the Lord. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted. The Lord sees our tears. The Lord cares about those things. The Lord cared about those lives.
He's not indifferent. And I think that that's so important. And Um, you know, I just not only do I want to thank you for coming on today, but but thank you for the care that you have shown Brent and I in our seasons and um You know, just we're praying for your ministry as well because I truly believe that's what it is. I think that as a believer, you're walking alongside people. What a wonderful way that you can show the love of the Lord to people, whether it's on their greatest day.
Or when they're really when their ta when their faith is being tested.
So okay. Thank you for having me with. I really appreciate it.
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