This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. I'm your host, Emily Curtis, and co-hosting with me today.
I'm Robbie Dilmore. I read an article this past week by Joseph Matera that said, masculinity is not incidental, but intentional. It's a calling to rise, to listen, and to lead, on God's terms, not the world's terms. My guest today has been through several trials that have challenged his masculinity from the world's perspective, but they have drastically helped shift his perspective to a biblical perspective of what it means to be a man. Today he shares his difficult journey with us, along with a renewed perspective of what it means to mourn in a manly way.
Michael, welcome to Hope in the Morning. Yeah, thank you for having me. Michael, you initially reached out to me back when we had pretty newly released the book, Hope in the Morning: A Hope-Filled Guide Through Grief, and you just had shared with me how much the poem, Tears, meant to you.
So I'm going to read that poem real quick, and then I'd love for you to just kind of walk us through what it meant to you and why.
So this is the poem, Tears. It says, Long ago there was a life I envisioned, full of light hearted joy and the pattering of little feet. But my vision was not yours, Lord, so I shed tears, and you gathered them. and place them in your bottle. I wished for a body that was able and strong, running along shores and dancing in the sunset.
but you chose to have me walk a different path, so I shed tears, and you gathered them and placed them in your bottle. My desire was to know the bond of love and live this life hand in hand with the one you created for me. but you have deemed it good for me to travel alone.
so I shed tears, and you gathered them, and placed them in your bottle. When my heart was overwhelmed with sorrow and I ached for all I hoped this life would be, when I felt unseen, and my eyes were wet and weary from my tears, you gathered them, and you placed them in your bottle. Not one change of plans has startled you, and you've never left me abandoned or without hope. You gathered all the remnants of my broken dreams, and you have replaced them with all that is good in your perfect wisdom. for I do not have a father who is distant from my grief you mourn with those who mourn, and offer mind surpassing peace.
I will trust you I will trust that your plans are for my good, and you are acquainted with me most intimately. Not a single tear has shed, has gone unseen you have gathered them, and placed them in your bottle.
So, can you tell us why that poem specifically? meant meant something to you to the point where you felt like you wanted to reach out. Yeah, the book had been given to me by my pastor right in the middle of several different trials kind of coming to a head. where I I dealt with Being single but desiring to be married for the majority of my adult life. almost 15 years.
And um Last year in March, I was diagnosed with my second round of testicular cancer. Which, although I attempted to try to preserve the ability to have children down the road, that the cancer had progressed far enough that that wasn't a possibility.
So the The possible future that I had long considered, well, maybe I won't ever find someone to marry and have children with, that became very real in regards to having children very quickly. And That trial had kind of come up quickly but Since I was maybe 10 or 11, I've also had an issue in my spine from an accident being bucked off a horse. That had gotten progressively worse over the years to where I had chronic back pain and my left leg was becoming. Essentially unusable. And so I was approaching a surgery for that to.
hopefully correct it but not necessarily fix it. And so, not only did I have that looming backdrop of I can't move like other people, I have all this chronic pain. Um I'm single and I desire to be married. And then now I have this death knoll on being able to have my own children. You know, I was in a season of grief for all of those things and struggle.
And so then walking through the book, Hope in the Morning was really beneficial because I got to see. How God was sustaining other people through their own unique trials. But coming across um tears struck me You know, I was very emotional during that time anyway, but. I I spent a lot of time in tears uh reading through that poem the first time because it it It nailed. All three of the aspects specifically of what I was going through.
So it was not. It took the book from being something that was really beneficial to me to show how God sustains people through their trials. To To speaking directly to where I was at. And that was really encouraging to me.
So There was another trial, actually it sounds like before Oh, the others with the cancer is You know, you've been praying and praying, praying for a wife. And you thought God had answered that prayer. Um But it didn't it didn't go that way, did it? Yeah. Yeah, I have been dating a girl for a time and was in the process of ring shopping when that relationship ended.
And Yeah, that that That came Sometimes I forget to mention all the different things that happened because that that occurred just before my grandfather died, and then I got my first diagnosis of cancer. And so many things happened at once that I don't even always remember them. But yeah, that that kicked off a really dark season. Uh You know. I guess it kind of showed me that I had placed too much hope in that, but uh as something that would satisfy uh But it before I came back to realize, okay, No, Christ is still satisfying whether you're married or single.
Yeah, for there there was a a really intense period of Wow, I thought this is what God had for me. This isn't.
Now all these other things in my life are. Or it felt like spiraling out of control. That was some very dark, difficult times. Yeah. Mm.
Yeah, as I w when I think about that one versus the other ones, You know, it's pretty easy to blame yourself when you got a relationship that comes apart, right? And cancer, having been a cancer survivor myself, you realize wasn't something you chose or wasn't anything that it was just something that God had for you in that season. Um As you process that, Along with the testicular cancer, how did that come after your masculinity, or how did you sense? Um that, gee, you know, am I a real man? Like every man wants to know.
Yeah, definitely. Um Yeah, and that was hard because there were some things that I had done wrong. That I could look back and say, honestly, yeah, like I could have done that better. Maybe I'm at fault for it. And it's and I don't I don't also want to just put all the blame on on the girl uh that I broke up with.
I still have a a friendship with her and have no ill feelings, but I certainly was very bitter for a time during that period. But in regards to my masculinity, it was certainly. That maybe brought to a head feelings that I felt for my whole life: why are my peers finding marriage and I'm not? What am I doing wrong? I seem to be the common denominator between.
The different women that I've had interest in and pursued and had relationships not work out. Know you could look at a hundred different things with all those, but the way that I would look at it is: well, I'm the common denominator in all these things. What's wrong with me? And yeah, I definitely felt like: do I not love Christ enough? And am I not spiritual enough?
Am I not leading well enough? Um, Am I not attractive enough? Like, what's the key that's missing that could? that I could m change. In the midst of all of that.
Yeah, that that was very difficult. And There's definitely been times where I've dealt with that better and times that I haven't dealt with that well. Yeah. You do talk at one point in your written story, which people can find on the website, hope in the Morning.org. You talk about how you did reach a point where you realized that God could actually use you very mightily in your singleness.
What was kind of like your Aha moment with that of thinking, like, okay, I'm still useful, I'm still valuable, I have manly traits to offer to the church. Yeah, you know, it it in a really weird way, I've thought that way as a possibility since I was a kid. I remember a conversation on the phone with my best friend when we were probably in like junior high school. Where we were talking about whatever crushes we had in the day and talking about what it'd be like to get married. And I remember I mentioned, I was like, Well, you know, it says that in First Corinthians 7, though, that you may not get married, God may not have that.
My friend was like, Michael, you're going to get married. Come on. I'm like, well, maybe not.
So that's been a category for me for a long time. That I go back and forth between whether I like it or not, or believe it or not. But But I love the local church. I think that's God. I think that's God's plan for.
For accomplishing his missions through the local church. Accomplishing the Great Commission. And so I've poured myself out as much as I can to serve in the church. In any way that I can. I think singleness, singleness doesn't necessarily mean that people have more time or more money or more skills.
But it does mean they have a different flexibility in using those different attributes that they have. And so I have really For me, I've tried to do To leave myself available for any opportunity to say, to never say, oh, I don't have enough time for that. Oh, I shouldn't do that. To say, no, I probably do, in ways that other people can't. And not only just the amount of things that I can do, but the different ways that I can help.
I can get there early. I can stay late. I'm not my priorities are not towards my immediate family. I don't have, I just have myself. And so I can.
Prioritize opportunities of the local church in ways that other people can't. And I've also really tried to focus on On young people, especially young men, whether that's just discipling the next generation of men that are coming behind me or. Specifically, trying to help with men who are dealing with the same trial that I am who desire to be married and are not. I think that's what 2 Corinthians 1 talks about, where Paul says he was. He was comforted by the father of all comforts so that he could comfort those with the same comfort he had received.
And so, there's, you know, I couldn't tell you how many guys that I've poured that into, and some of them are married, and some of them are not now. Uh But that I kind of have an eye for that to say I can kind of tell if someone's struggling with that. And to be able to say, yeah, I don't know if. I don't know what's exactly going to happen, but here's what God has taught me in regards to that: that hopefully you can. Use to set your own mind on Christ.
Yeah. That's an amazing thing that, um, When you win Yeah. A lot of people, or I'll I'll take myself for For years and years and years, I misunderstood that I thought, well, You know, if if A child loses his father to divorce, or he loses him, you know, because he leaves, or death, you know, that God will come in as the backup plan. That was the backup plan. Right.
That, well, God is his father. He's going to, you know, that's the backup plan. But the more I've studied that, and John Eldridge teaches on this and some other things, that God is like this. Amazing. Orchestra leader, right?
And so he is orchestrating fathers into your life. And yes, you have your biological father, but I was just thinking about Michael's situation. You know, he was praying for children, yet, how many children is he fathering? Because as we talked about before in Mark 10:30, it talks about all these relationships that God is going to give you for his sake and the sake of the gospel. That now you have a chance.
to be a father in all these opportunities. And and and God's orchestrating that. Not only it's kind of really neat when you think about it, that those guys need a mentor. They need a man to come alongside of them and show them what a man is. But at the same point in time, We all need people to mentor, right?
We all need that chance. And God gave you some extra time because these guys need some extra time. Yeah, that actually crossed my mind too, what you were saying, Robbie, is that a lot of these people, especially people that are from broken homes or their parents have passed away, like they need a man to say, you're worth my time. I'm willing to say, yes, I have the time for you. Because even just your average man now, even an actual like a biological father, oftentimes does not have much time for his kids because there's just they're working all the time.
And so there's not that amount of time.
So, what a neat opportunity that you have. You give them time for that as well. And when we come back, I'd love to talk about what gave you the courage to share your story because this is a hard share, it's a hard story to share. And so, when we come back, we're gonna talk about what gave you that courage.
So, join us again in just a moment on Hope in the Morning. John 13, 35 says, By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Do you know how to best love and serve your hurting brother or sister in Christ? Listen to Hope in the Morning and be equipped to offer the hope of Jesus to every hurting heart. To learn more or to partner with our ministry, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org.
Have you ever struggled to comfort a grieving friend? John 11:35 says, Jesus wept. When Jesus was told by Mary and Martha that their brother Lazarus had died, Jesus wept. Today on Hope in the Morning, we invite you to learn what it looks like to weep with those who weep. Learn what it means to sit in the ashes and be encouraged that even in our morning, there's hope.
His name is Jesus. Visit hope in the morning.org to learn more. Yeah. Hope in the Mourning allows you to lean into the suffering of others and helps equip you to purposefully mourn with and meaningfully minister to those suffering in your midst. May these testimonies cause you to see our God with fresh and thankful eyes.
And may you seek to be His hands and feet to every wearying heart. Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn how you can partner with us in ministry. All right, welcome back to Hope in the Morning. You're joined today with Robbie Dilmore and Michael. He's talking to us about the trials that he has faced not only in singleness, but also with chronic pain and with his diagnosis of cancer that he faced.
Michael, what gave you the courage to say this is a story that I'm willing to share publicly? Yeah. You know, initially that that was really difficult for me. Uh after after my relationship ended, Um That was a really dark period where I was isolated from a lot of people. I was struggling to believe that.
I have people I could turn to and People that cared about me. And then I got my first cancer diagnosis. And Um told some people they were close to me and and got Kind of a difficult response. There were some people who didn't sit with me in the grieving, but rather kind of went straight to options of how to cure it. And then when I chose not to use those medical routes, there were some people that actually scoffed at me for not doing that.
And that was really off-putting of wanting to share. But The second time I was diagnosed with cancer, that really opened the floodgates: I need people, I need help, this is a breaking point. And from there. I received such an outpouring of comfort and grief and. People, believers coming alongside me in that.
That I realized how necessary it was and how beneficial it was. And from there, I just didn't stop. Um I I went from There were a lot of thoughts that had been in my head on singleness, on infertility, on suffering. That I just realized I don't really care what people think about these things. I need to share them.
I want to share them. And so there were some times where people probably said, Yeah, I can't believe you shared that. And I had just started putting it in the category of. This is the trial that God has brought me through, and I'm going to share it with people. And I'll.
I'll leave it up to them if, uh, like if they're frustrated by that, then. They're not frustrated if that's too much for them. That's okay with me. Like, I really need them to know this. This is what I'm going through.
Yeah, well I was just gonna say You know, when it comes to that I guess, idea of masculinity for some reason, and and I'm sure that a lot of us have noticed this, and John Eldridge writes about it, that it this every man wants to know he has what it takes. Right. And interestingly, Masculinity can only bestow that.
So when Jesus was baptized, you think about it, that here comes the Father down to the Son and saying, this is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased. He is Bestowing masculinity onto masculinity. And so, you know, as you have an opportunity to do that, Michael, with these men that you're working with, and you're saying, Man, you got you did that so well. You really have, you know, you've really... And you f sense yourself.
Speaking that into that fathering kind of thing where you're acknowledging they have a masculine strength and they have masculine ability. Can you speak to that? Yeah, I don't know if I fully understand the question. I'm sorry. Do you mind rephrasing it?
So when you're actually talking to young men or the people the men that you're working with, And you're Obviously trying to encourage them And speaking Essentially masculine, like, boy, you did that really well in affirming them in those ways. Essentially, do you sense? How They eat that like candy especially. I guess that's a good question. Like how much it means to them.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And Yeah, and I'm not a maybe a prototypical macho male. I don't hunt. I'm not a big outdoors guy.
You know, I don't fit those stereotypes. And so the things that I'm reinforcing as masculine aren't those things. It's It's a love for the church. It's a love for missions, sharing the gospel. It's a love for God's word.
And so, like, when I sense that other guys are picking that up, I do get really excited. And yeah, I can sense that people are saying it's not just. Especially, you know, some of the guys that I'm drawn to are probably also not the guys that fit those stereotypical categories. And there's a sense in a lot of people that I I hear There. That's not always what gets reinforced as masculine, and so yeah, that is a big encouragement to them when they sense, oh.
Yeah, this is what's important, and it's actually good for me to be pursuing this. Yeah. You know, that's the big difference, and that's one of the things we really want to draw a lot of attention to in your episode, Michael. The difference between what the world defines as masculinity, and a lot of it is wrapped up kind of in what you're saying. It's wrapped up in: are you married?
Do you have kids? Are you athletic? Those are what people view as manly from a world standpoint. But biblically speaking, it's not. A manly man is someone who looks out for the needs of others above himself.
It's someone that knows God's word and lives God's word. It's somebody that is a faithful friend. It's somebody that is a man of integrity. And as the only woman present on today's show, on a show on masculinity, I would say to the young women that are listening: that's the kind of man that you want to marry. You want to marry a man who is biblically masculine because.
You're not guaranteed athleticism throughout your life. You're not even guaranteed that the man that you are attracted to is going to remain physically attractive your whole life. But when a man has character and a man has integrity and he strives after the heart of God, he actually will become more and more masculine As you age with him. And so those are the characters that we as women want to be looking for and placing value on. If you're a godly woman, that is what it looks like to seek after a masculine man.
Right. And I, you know, but it's interesting that, you know, it's almost like when you use the word masculine, it distracts people. And they're like, they're thinking you're talking about hunting and fishing. Yeah. But, you know, one of the most masculine characters in the Bible is Daniel.
He was a eunuch. Yeah. Right. I mean, he obviously was never going to have a family and all those things. But talk about somebody that stood up with character and integrity, stood for God.
You know, he stood up against the lions, I might point out. He didn't hunt them, but at this point in time, he was in the den with them. But still, looking after, Nebuchadnezzar was a horrible guy. I mean, he burned out the king of Israel's children's eye. He kicked out the king of Israel's eyes after he murdered their children.
I mean, this was horrible stuff. And yet. He ministered to him. You think about that. And you think about the picture of masculinity.
And so I really... Yeah, it's a distraction. Like we could use a different word perhaps. But unfortunately, so many men get caught up in that. Wow, I don't.
No, no, it's not. It's not. Although I love to hunt and fish personally, but that's not the issue.
Well, even I mean, you see the example of Jesus himself, and he was not married and he did not have children. Michael, how are those examples of men throughout the Bible, how do those encourage you? Yeah, I think the example of Christ more than any of them, although Paul and Daniel as other single men are encouraging to me, but Christ has really helped redefine masculinity to me in general Um to your point Masculine or masculinity can kind of be buzzwords, but truly the Bible talks about masculinity. It talks about manliness. And I think it's more that it just defines those differently, and it defines them by Christ.
You know, Christ is the ultimate man, he takes Adam's place in what men were supposed to be. What humanity is supposed to be, but also what men are supposed to be. And he does that in some ways that fit some of our stereotypes. He was outdoorsy, but he also. He also was very good at leading, taking the initiative.
But Jesus, I think, was. was more defined by his love. Than by anything else, even in his leadership. I think his leadership was an aspect of his love. But I think that's what's most forward.
And Jesus for me is such an encouragement because Jesus didn't marry, he didn't have children. And I know there's. A little bit other things going on theologically there, but If Jesus defines what it is to be a human, what it is to be a male, even. I think better than anyone else does. That means that those things are important to a lot of men, but they're incidental.
They don't define at the grainiest level what it is. Um but Jesus Is defined by his love for people and in a lot of ways his really his gentleness, which included his strength, it wasn't passivity. Um but he was meek, he was gentle, he was kind, and Those are That's a little bit more how my personality is postured. That I'm just a little bit more gentler. I'm not the big go-getter type A personality.
And so, to be able to look to Christ and say, you know, that isn't what it means to be a man, but being Christ-like is, and in any way that it is to be Christ-like. That's what I can pursue. Um And To have a goal for Christian men of, okay, how do I become a biblical man?
Well, I need to go in Christ-likeness. Like, that's an attainable goal for any man, and that's encouraging. Yeah. You know, and we we've titled your episode Manly Morning and with just the short time that we have left, I would love to have you talk. I mean, we have more time that we're going to talk on the podcast, but with what we have for the radio programming here, what would you say to encourage men in what it looks like to grieve what you hoped would be?
In a manly way, before the Lord, in an honest manly way. Yeah. Yeah, I primarily um Grieve. I I try to grieve biblically. And the songs is really what helped me do that the most.
And in the Psalms, you have example after example. You know, we don't know the authorship of every Psalm, but a lot of the Psalms we know were written by men. And these are men who are describing their emotional turmoil and their grief. Their tears, they're weeping, they're sobbing through the night. Like, those are masculine responses of grief, and those are biblically.
Uh Authenticated, like it's good to grieve in this way. And so when I look to scripture, I don't see. Oh man, we got some really wimpy men who just can't take it. I see, oh, this is how God wants me. to be able to be honest with him.
Um And you also see that with Jesus. Jesus was like with Martha and Mary, he grieved with them with weeping. And so that doesn't mean that every man has to be really sobby and weepy. But I think scripture endorses and allows us to be honest and encourages us to be honest with him, but also with others. To be able to receive that kind of support, that may be one piece that's difficult for men.
is letting other people in. and needing like getting help from other people. I'm very independent, partially 'cause I have to be. I don't have anyone in my immediate circle like a family would to be able to share the load of certain things. And so I'm just very self sufficient.
And I have to grow in that in general, but I really had to grow in that in my trial to say: okay, my church is coming around me to see how they can help.
Well, I usually do all these things myself. I don't really need that help, right? but learning no. Right now, I need help. And even if there's ways that I don't think that I need it, it's going to be really good for me to let people in, let them serve me in similar ways that I've done for them in the past, too.
So I would say to grief biblically. Let that be the guide for what emotions are okay and that you should have, and what types of things you can do. But also um Let your guard down to let other believers in and let them help you, that you don't have to solve every problem. I think that's a great takeaway for this episode is just that There is a real manliness to being vulnerable and not only not only. Offering help and advice and wisdom, but being willing to eagerly receive that from other people as well.
And Michael, this is not the only trial that you have faced. In fact, these are not even the most intense trials that you have faced.
So, Michael, going forward, you know, as we mentioned, like, That was not even the hardest thing that you have faced. And yet, you know, most men are going to hear your testimony and be like, How could that not be the hardest thing that you faced? And What has been your newest and hardest trial that you've gone through? Yeah, so in June of last year, it's. Just been a week or two since the anniversary of that being one year old.
I had a surgery to repair the lining around my spinal cord. That I like I mentioned, I got bucked off a horse when I was a kid. and have grown up with Really intense back pain, and my left leg just started to deteriorate more and more. Um After years, maybe like 10, maybe in my 20s at some point, I realized I was having trouble walking. Uh just with a a little bit of a lamp.
And then a couple years ago, I realized I can't really run anymore. I'm off balance enough that I can't run. And then in the last, Year or two, started to have difficulty even walking around. My leg would start to spasm. Um significantly enough that I was having trouble getting to sleep.
And found out just last year that it was because that the coating of my spinal. column was torn and had a surgery to repair that. And woke up out of the surgery and didn't have any strength below my waist. Couldn't move my toes, my legs, my waist. And that was unexpected.
The surgeons weren't, they knew that that was technically a possibility, but they didn't anticipate that happening. And I spent three months in really Um intensive daily rehab and therapy and was able to regain strength. I can walk around now, but I have chronic pain in my back that is just consistent, kind of like what it was before my surgery, but in new and different ways now. And um Have a pronounced limp that I still take a lot of medication for. I use a cane.
Um that will probably never come back. Um I'm hopeful that it won't get worse. That was the point of the surgery, but That's kind of the the new normal for me now. Yeah. Hmm.
So so there's no further surgery options that you have for that pain? Um for the pain, I don't think so. Um I My back surgeon sent me away with a clean bill of health, or, you know, hey, this is as far as I can help you with. The way that I have kind of thought about it is: I have 15 years of neurological deterioration from when the accident happened to when I got it addressed. Um and My therapy has gotten a lot of the neurological pieces back that I had lost due to the surgery.
But at some point You know, you're just not going to get some things back, and with that lung deterioration and damage Um My leg is probably never going to be. As strong as my right leg and be able to walk around normally. The back pain, that's muscular. And so I might be able to deal with that with. with further therapy, with chiropractic, with different types of things, that, you know.
Some days it's worse than others, but I don't anticipate I kind of look at it where I have the back of a 60 or 70 year old and you know it At some point that's just reality. Yeah. I just got mine a lot earlier.
So You know, we've talked to a couple different people, not a lot actually, especially younger ones that deal with chronic pain. How are there like what are some spe some specific Tangible ways that people within the church can come alongside those that have chronic pain that are going to experience that for the majority of their life, if not all of their life. Yeah, that's a good question.
Some of it is Or just being willing to help, you know, there's different things that. I have to struggle with my own embarrassment of asking for help for, asking for accommodations with. You know, I just helped lead a VBS training for some volunteers we have today. And I was, by God's grace, I was able to stand up throughout it. But I was considering: do I need to sit down for this?
to teach it.
So, part of it is just like not judging that and being like, no, this is okay. I want to look out for people if they need help with stuff like that. But also just I think that it can be helpful to be creative and proactive in ways of like, how can I? First, keep these types of people at the front of my mind because though chronic illnesses tend to People tend to do a pretty good job of covering them up and not letting them know. You know, we can operate with them kind of at a low level.
So, just thinking about other people, I have to remind myself of that as well. There's lots of people in my church that deal with it that I'm like, I always forget about this person, and they're dealing with the same thing I am. But then there's a creativity there of like, I wonder what I could do to help them. And maybe that's asking them, but maybe it's just like, hey. I know I know that this person likes this, they like this meal, or they go get massages.
Like, I'm just going to do that without even asking and try to bless them with it.
So. I think that's good. I think also, kind of, what you were saying is keep them on the forefront of your mind because. It's easy in the hustle and bustle and busyness of our lives to just kind of focus on whatever that new prayer request is that pops up in your church. And you're like, oh, so-and-so's family member passed away, or so-and-so just got diagnosed with cancer.
That's what we keep on the forefront. And we might send a meal or you might send a card and then whoop, goes to the back of your mind, you know? And but with people with chronic pain, Especially, you know, we had a young woman on here. She was one of our first guests actually that we had on, and she's dealt with ulcerative colitis. For much of her, actually much of her Mothering life.
And so she got diagnosed with it, like, I think with her third or fourth child. And here she is raising this brood of boys with, you know, this intense pain. And. Anyway, it's one of those things like you're saying that I think Sometimes when you deal with chronic pain, you almost feel like you need to Try and suppress it as best you can because you don't want to be the person that always needs help. You don't want that to be your identity either.
It's like, oh, that's the person that always needs a chair. That's the person that they can't run or whatever. Like, that's not your identity. But It can be hard to allow yourself to accept help over extended periods of time. In the same way that it can be hard for the church to understand that people that have chronic illnesses.
They need us to step in and comfort them, to encourage them, whether that's tangibly or write them a text message saying, Hey, I'm praying for you today. I'm praying that you get good sleep tonight. That can be a huge one. when you have chronic pain. Ha have you struggled at all with A willingness to accept help from people over an extended period of time.
Yeah. Um And and I I struggle with how much to push myself in trying to recover more. And yeah, how much help do I need to accept? Um Yeah, like I said, I'm very self-sufficient just because that's my normal lifestyle. There's a couple of guys that wrench from me at my house that I kind of have an immediate safety net, but I don't have.
The same type of family unit where it's like, okay, we can. a little bit to distribute the responsibilities. Um, and so then to have my you know, my small group and my church and my family that uh lives a town over. you know to have them all wanting to hey how can we help what can we do Or or even like, hey, I want to help you in this way. Can I do that?
There's a little bit that pushes against my pride. That I'm like, no, I can do this. That I've had to realize, no, this is really good. Even if it's not always the ways that I would want to be helped. Uh, this is really good because this is the church in action, this is giving them opportunities to serve.
And most of the time, I look back on it and I say, okay, that actually was really beneficial. I needed that. That was good. Maybe I didn't see it in the moment, but that was a really beneficial thing.
So I try to look out for myself in a lot of situations, like, okay. I need to have a clear path to the bathroom. I need to have a comfortable chair that I could sit in for a while. But I don't always think about those things. And so, when other people kind of proactively say, Hey, do you want to switch these with me?
Or is this okay? That's actually really beneficial because sometimes I miss something that would have been really bad. And even if it's not something that I need in the moment, it shows that they really care about me. And that's encouraging.
So in Isaiah 66 at the beginning, which it's kind of interesting, I don't know if you ever noticed it, that there's 66 books in the Bible and the last one's Revelation. And if you look at chapter 66 of Isaiah, it's kind of the revelation of Isaiah. It's a similar end of time kind of thing. But at the very beginning of it, God identifies... who it is that he's going to listen to.
And the first, he says, is the poor. Um which In Hebrew is an eye, which is very uh much what Jesus was describing in You know, the fifth chapter of Matthew, right? And the Sermon on the Mount. But the second group. was fascinating because Jesus one of the groups that he cured all the time was the lame.
Yeah. And so the second group that he mentions that he is going to take regard to, like he gave regard to Abel's, um sacrifice. is the lame. And the more I've studied that, deeply in Hebrew because I love it. I I I realized we are all lame.
And the only difference between Folks that know that they're lame, and there's other folks like me that have really never considered how lame. I actually am. Uh that there's a sense of longing to be able to do stuff. Um Two years in a wheelchair.
So I have some sense of. I learned something new about Robbie every episode, I will say, because it's like, oh my goodness, he was tailor-made for this show, honestly. I was crushed by a Jeep right after I finished my chemotherapy for cancer. Actually, the same we went to celebrate my chemotherapy, and there was a horrible Jeep accident where this Jeep crushed me on my left leg.
So I was in a wheelchair for two years. And so I have a limited sense of what you're describing, Michael. But I had a great sense of what God's describing to all of us. Like. That h that hunger That huge desire for some relief, whether that's chronic pain or that's the inability to get to the bathroom.
Or if you got ulcerative colitis or whatever the situation may be. And What appears to be this horrible thing, like Blindness Actually, to some extent, right, we're all in that group. And so it's kind of interesting to me, Michael, as I listen to your story. Um it pushed you to the where the real comfort was gonna be, right? See if it Yeah.
Yeah, all of those all of the things that I Um maybe lost, so to speak, or didn't have. Um I I think they're good things that That God desires for his people, you know, marriage, children, health. Those are good things that a lot of people have in different capacities, but. None of those things are ultimate. And even for the people that enjoy those things, that isn't ultimate.
And so for me to have those stripped away, it was very Uh focused way to help me realize that, but it was very sweet. And I do think, yeah, to your point about God blessing the lame and the poor and. You know, Isaiah 54 and 56 were really encouraging to me, speaking to the barren woman, to the eunuch. Having blessings that were greater than to those who could have children. It's not just that Christ Fills up what was lacking because you don't have those things, but that he super abounds something more.
Which I think is really a deeper experience of himself, you know, that he suffered where we suffered. And in a weird way, from our perspective, Those who suffer in those really unique ways actually get a deeper experience of Christ. Than it's possible if you have the earthly blessing, because you get to know Christ. As he suffered in those ways. And so that.
Just totally flips the way that you think about it, that is truly deeply comforting. And and I think that's where where peop so many people say, Yeah, I wouldn't trade this for anything. It's because they're getting to know Christ more deeply. They don't like going through those things, but you get to know Christ more deeply and that that makes it worth it. There was this missionary.
This is a great story, and I always think about it. And and the same point that that you're making, Michael, that He was a missionary in in a In an island where there were cannibals. But there were some friendly tribe people, too, that he was ministering to. But he really wanted to get to the cannibals, right? And so he went out there and made his lodge with the cannibals and all that.
And, you know, they decided this was dinner, essentially. Like, here, you know. And so the good ones came and told him, Look, dude, they're coming to kill you tonight. You need to find a good place to hide. And so he spent.
And on the day trying to figure out exactly, he found the tree that he wanted, he climbed up in this tree, and then he watched the cannibals come in. and look all over for him. They were all night climbing trees. They burned his house down. And he has got nobody but God that night.
And of course, he's in this place of, you can imagine, complete, intense prayer. And what he would say afterwards, to Michael's point, is, you know, that was the absolute worst moment of my life. the most scary, but it pushed me into God. The fellowship was so sweet that if I had to go through that experience again, I would if I could be that close to God again. Michael, what were your prayers like during some of those hardest seasons?
Like, When you found out that you had certain infertility, what were your prayers like around that time? Yeah, there was there were a lot of prayers of why. Um There was wrestling with You know, whether God would work certain miracles. You know, there was. From the From the time that I was diagnosed with my second round of testicular cancer, which brought up like, hey, this is your last chance to preserve any sperm.
I got the news that, hey, this isn't going to be possible. But the surgery that was going to remove my testicle, the surgeon said, hey, I'm going to try a look for any possible things in a. A different method than normal sperm banking.
So in that time, there was a lot of prayer of, like, okay, God, maybe you're going to work a miracle and preserve it. And he did not. And even looking through scripture, you know, seeing so many barren women and barren couples be gifted children beyond what was normal. You know, just there were a lot of prayers wrestling through you. You know, God, could you still do that in my body?
Is that something that I could be praying for? That kind of miracle. A lot of why and things like that. through through infertility And and now In this new trial with all of my neurological issues, there's been a lot of prayer just for endurance to get to the next day. And learning that that's not a bad prayer, that Yeah.
The Response to a trial isn't just like. Victory of like, am I doing this well enough? Am I doing a good enough job at enduring this trial? But more of a past fail: like, am I enduring? Am I hanging on?
And that's been some of the most desperate prayer of like. God, this is beyond me. This is too much. This is, you know, too much. Heart pain, this is too much.
Physical pain, I don't like I'm worn out. How can I keep doing this? Uh even You know, children, my own biological children are off the table, but marriage isn't, and they're wrestling with that, praying for that, like just. Grappling with, you know, God, this even feels like an impossibility. for marriage And so a lot of those prayers are just asking God.
Okay, help me endure, help me hang on, give me the strength I need for right now. Um, and so they're that's been really sweet to say, okay, I don't need to think too big picture, I just need to be to ask God for grace for today, yeah. You know, I know a lot of people that struggle with infertility. Like, our go-to advice basically is to say, well, you could always foster or you could always adopt. in your opinion as someone that has has faced that reality How does that remark?
Miss the mark.
Well put, yeah. Yeah, it's That one's really unique, and I think this probably applies to a lot of different types of trials where. That is really true. And I've desired, I've thought about it, desired adopting, you know, kind of similar to marriage since I was a kid. I was like, I would love to do that.
I want to do that.
So that's been on my mind for a long time. And as I have, as I realized that, okay, there's no fertility treatment that I can use in my own body to have children. I learned about embryo adoption and the unique way that that can be a blessing to families. Like, that's something I would love to do if I ever get married someday. Like, so those things are good.
Um but In the moment where someone is grieving their infertility. If you suggest adoption or remind people of that, or the different options that they have, fostering and other things. It it can move away from grieving and into problem solving. And there's a time for problem solving and looking at options, but A lot of times you need to grieve first and do the portion that Job's friends did and sit with them and grieve with them and mourn and say, Yeah, this is. This is wrong and this is bad.
Yeah, that's Christ with Mary and Martha grieving with them before he said, Hey, I got the solution. You know, he didn't start there. Yeah, and so it's a true thing and it's a good thing. but it's not always the timely thing.
So when it's done not in a timely manner, I guess to sum that up, would you say that it sort of minimizes? what you're going through. Yeah, it Regardless of how someone brings it up, it can sound. And there were times where it did sound to me like, well, at least you can adopt, you know, as it's like, it's the second. Is the second best thing.
And that might even be something in my head that's like, yes, I still desire that, but. Right now, this is not the time to talk about it. Yeah. You know, people make comments like that too. Like after miscarriage, they'll say things like, well, you can still have another baby, or even, even when, like, A person is widowed or widowered at a young age.
Well, you're still young, you can get remarried. And it's like, like you're saying, a Word that is spoken not in a timely season can actually be like salt to a wound. And part of with hope in the morning. Is that People do remember. They remember those things.
And yes, there's obviously an aspect of forgiveness. I'm sure you've had to deal with that, with comments that people have made. Unintentional, like they're not intended to hurt your feelings or intended to harm in any way. But they're just not they're not spoken in a in a timely manner. They may not be spoken with compassion.
And so it becomes salt to a wound. When you're in a state of woundedness, I think that you remember what people say for better or for worse. You know, you remember those that come alongside you and that really ministered compassion to you. And you remember those that come alongside you and you're like, ooh, that was... Not the best thing to say.
And that's part of what we want to do: help people understand what is good to say, what is not. Another thing that people remember, and I had this dear friend who lost his daughter, Um And he came back after the funeral and he said this to me. He said, You know, maybe this was two years later or something. He said, you know, Robbie, I can't tell you everybody who came to the funeral. But I can tell you everybody who didn't.
And that one has always stuck down into my stomach. Like when somebody's, you know, and I go, yeah. I don't want to be on that person's list as somebody that should have been there. You know, I mean, that's for any trial, though. I mean, whether it's, you know, you're in the hospital recovering from your cancer surgery or your back surgery, and you remember the people who did or did not text message you, that matters.
And, you know, they have said on another episode before, but my mom, since becoming a widow, she has had a pastor from California that text messages her every single day. And all he says is, I'm praying for you. I'm praying for you. I'm praying for you. And a couple months ago, he added me to that.
And he just, both of us, every day, I'm praying for you, praying for you. Such a small thing, and yet, wow, what a big thing, especially when you are having a hard day, which we all have faced those hard days, to just see that, wow, somebody else is taking the time out of their day to pray for me, and they don't even know what a hard day I'm having today. Like my mom, my mom will never forget that. You know, she tells everybody about it and Even on our show, we're donor sponsored. And so we say that people can give donations to our ministry in honor of a loved one or in memory of somebody.
And my mom this month, she was like, I want to donate, and I want to donate in that pastor's honor. I want his picture at the end of the month to be up there as someone that has blessed me.
So richly with just two words, praying for you, or three words. There you go. It helps the back and count, but you know. Praying for you. Yeah.
That is awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Those things, everyone, every one of them matters. Yeah. That you cared if you sincerely cared.
It's invaluable because that's the picture that John described of a real man. Is Jesus and the love that he showed, man or woman, actually. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And we're so thankful for people like you, Michael, that come on the show and are willing to share such Poignant testimonies with such vulnerability because it takes a lot of humility to share your testimony and to even share just the struggles that you have had in your own heart and mind about what it means to be manly. And, you know, I mean, I've had the privilege of getting to message back and forth with you a little bit here and there through email for a couple of years now.
And I can attest the fact that you seem to have just a very genuinely sweet and humble heart and a mindset that is geared toward honoring the Lord with what He has put you through and not. Um Okay. cursing him for all the trials he's put you through. you can see where the Lord is redeeming those. even though it's not it's not a pain-free process.
I appreciate that. One of the one of the things that I think has become more clear to me is. You know, because that's a sentiment that a lot of people have shared both within my church through the medical field, all sorts of people have just how are you? You know, and I not that I've always had the right attitude, but As I've sought to still glorify God and say, no, this is. This isn't what I want, but this is good.
This is right. God is going to use this. I I realized that um I owe a lot to my family and to my church growing up to teach me good doctrine. Because I think there is a theology of suffering that is really, really painful to learn if you're learning it in the midst of a trial. And yet I had a.
A strong foundation that says, no, God is sovereign. He works in all ways. He has a plan. His plan is good and right. And and he is um Like he doesn't make mistakes.
And so I've had that robust foundation that has been waiting for a trial to get put upon it, I guess, to test it out. But that's something that was, I guess, kind of my default in as these things came up, where I didn't always like it. But I knew the right answers. And that saved me, I think, a lot of heartache. I still wrestled with the wise, but at the end of the day, I knew the answer.
And I knew that God was still good in the midst of that. And so I knew. I had my North Star, I guess you could say. There's a lot of people that have to learn that in the midst of trial, and that's God's plan. But If we can understand and come to grips with who God is before that, Um Man, that meant a lot to me.
Yeah, it's like the difference between studying for the test before you take the test and all of a sudden pop quiz, you know, like a big, a big difference. And I mean, we, that's that, again, is part of what we want to do with this ministry too, is help us equip each other and be equipped, whether it's through scripture or through theology that we find through hymns or through the hope that we find through other people's testimonies. We want to be equipped for the suffering that will inevitably come our way so that we can look at it as this is going to be a refining moment and not something that is going to crush us.
So I so appreciate you being willing to come on Hope in the morning. It was really a pleasure to get to speak with you. Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great to meet you guys, not in person, but over video. Yeah, to talk with you.
So, thank you for having me. Yeah, we really appreciate it. And join us again next week for another episode of Hope in the Morning. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting. equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ.
to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved ones honor. please visit hopeinthemorning.org. Your donation helps keep these stories of hope on the air. and helps tangibly meet the needs of the herding.
