For more than 25 years, Monica suffered from an addiction to drugs and alcohol, fueled in part by her painful and shameful past. The thought would come to my mind that I had had these abortions.
I would not want to think about it because the pain was just too real. Thankfully, God healed Monica's heart and today she supports Focus on the Family's pro-life ministry. I want to support a ministry that can help change the trajectory of people's lives that are contemplating abortion. I can't go back in time and change my life and change my decisions, but I can support a ministry that can help possibly change someone else's.
I'm Jim Daly. Let's save babies and give families hope today. Donate and your gift will be doubled.
Call 800-AFAMILY or visit FocusOnTheFamily.com slash gift. I think vulnerability in marriage is saying things to your spouse that you don't even really want to admit maybe to yourself, but sharing that anyway. Sharing fears and stuff about yourself that maybe is uncomfortable. I think vulnerability and transparency means just being honest about everything. I think it means you just don't keep secrets. Regarding vulnerability, it's easier for me than him. I wonder if those comments describe your marriage. I wonder if you feel like you can be open and transparent. No secrets with your spouse.
Welcome to another Best of 2024 episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Today we'll review how husbands and wives can experience greater vulnerability and intimacy and greater love in marriage. I can already hear people say, feelings?
Oh no, run! Honestly, this is not one of my favorite topics. This has been an issue in our marriage. I think growing up as an orphan, you compartmentalize that emotional area because it's painful. It's safer. So you put it away.
You just put it away. I think over the years of our marriage, Jean has gently been trying to pull that out. We're further down the road, but probably have a lot more work to do. I think the best line she ever shared with me was, I got your head, but I need your heart. And man, I get it. Men in general, I think, are more closed off for all those reasons. We can highly compartmentalize those emotions. And that's why we can go to war, kind of put it away and never talk about it again.
It's kind of the wiring that we have. But not healthy when it comes to intimacy, emotional intimacy in marriage. Yeah, and so we're going to have tips for men and women today. We're coming back to a great conversation we enjoyed earlier this year with Dave and Ashley Willis. They're authors and speakers and host the Naked Marriage podcast. They've written a number of books, and the one we're going to hear more about today is a wife's edition and a husband's edition of Seven Days to a Naked Marriage. And you can learn more about that bundle of books and Dave and Ashley's ministry at our website.
And the link is in the show notes. Well, Jim, here's how you began this best of conversation with Dave and Ashley Willis on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Let's start with your love story. It's always fun to do that.
You guys are so vulnerable and so open with both the highlights of that and the lowlights of that. How did you meet and when did you know you were going to get married? Was it like love at first sight? Well, it kind of was for me. I don't know. Maybe it took her longer.
I don't know. It was pretty quick. When she walked in, it was her very first day of college. And I was a junior.
I was a couple years ahead. And she walked into class one day and I don't even know if she saw me or knew I existed, but she was laughing and talking and just lit up the room. And I thought, I've got to get to know her. Now, why were you there in this particular room? Were you a junior that was looking at the freshness?
What was going on there? You're making me sound really terrible. You had a function I would assume? Orientation or something? Right.
Yeah. Let me help. Let me help the new freshmen find their way around. It was a class I'd kind of put off. It was actually an acting class randomly. We were communication majors and in communication at our little liberal arts school, a little Christian school where we went, they threw acting in as one of the classes you could take. And I'd kind of put it off because I'm like, I don't want to do that. But I put it off. I took it my junior year.
She took it as a freshman and it was just so fun. And of course, I looked for every excuse to do acting scenes together. Like, oh, you know, we would work well together.
Especially the kissing scene. I know. You really did try.
We never got paired though. I don't know why in that class. But you said you noticed me because I was wearing a hat. I'm a big time hat person.
I noticed a lot more than the hat. But I was wearing this like fisherman's hat that's really popular in the late 90s, early 2000s. And we chatted it up that whole semester. We were just kind of acquaintances, kind of friends. And then you ended up asking me to your fraternity formal. And we went to each other's like we went to some dances together and really got to know each other.
And very quickly, I mean, we we really I just felt like we both we started talking marriage pretty quickly. You say that's good, though. Yeah. Well, I knew I had to like I had to seal this deal before she realized how much better she could do.
Oh, my gosh. I've got to make sure that you are a wise man playing here. So true.
Just knew. I mean, we we did. We knew like we wanted to be together. And of course, we had a lot to learn, but we knew we wanted to figure it out together. We wanted to we wanted to be husband and wife. And so we we got engaged pretty quickly. And it's always a little bit of an awkward moment when that can be. And, you know, you don't want to make the assumption because that's not good. And then you want to get the point across that, man, I'm really interested.
So it's always that struggle of where is that line? Jean and I had that. I mean, we knew both of us, I think knew. But it took us. This is kind of funny.
It took us like six months to get to the point of going. Do you think. Do you think. Right. And you don't have to fill in the blank. She knows exactly what I mean, telling her I love her for the first time was one of the most awkward moments of my life because I was so nervous.
Right. And so she was like, what do you think? And I wanted to say it, but I couldn't get it out. I'm like, I was just you know, I was I was thinking like, you know, like I was just thinking and that I am.
He literally did this. I was like a TV show. It was just smile and wait for it. I was like, I love you know, I you didn't even say I really I think that I love. And before I could even get out, she said, I love you, too. I did. Oh, she rescued me. She rescued me.
I said, sweetie, I love you, too. Well, you know, it's like there's so much in that transaction because, guys, we do not like to fail. And we don't want to go out on the limb unless we have an assurance that we're going to win. So that's why I think guys hesitate. Like, I'm not quite sure I'm getting the right vibe from you. So that's why you got to finish the sentence for. Thank you. Thank you.
You think she's been rescuing me ever since? Let me ask you about this. You have a quote that you like and it says love is not enough for a marriage to work. I mean, I understand it, but come on. Isn't love enough? Well, I mean, love in the world's definition, like is the world's definition of love is really so superficial.
You know, it's kind of this something we derive from love songs and Hallmark movies. And it's this picture of love where it's always going to be easy. If you marry the right person, you're always going to have these feelings. You're never going to struggle.
It's never going to take real work. But but real marriage takes a lot more than that. I mean, it takes a commitment to each other, even on the days when maybe you struggle to like each other in that moment, because you're so committed to each other and it's rooted in action. And that's that's the way God God loves us with a committed love that's rooted in action. And and we've got to love each other that way. So I think we've got to just break free from the world's very shallow definition of love to what God has in store and in mind for marriage, which is it's selfless, it's sacrificial at times.
It's going to take work, but it's so worth it. I was thinking about the transactional nature of that. You think of the world and now, you know, psychology has shown that basically love defined by the world is that infatuation. Yes, it lasts about two years and it's kind of like God's sense of humor to say, I'm going to give you a dose of dopamine in your brain.
It's going to give you you're going to have this infatuation because if you didn't, it probably would. We'd never have children. I mean, I'm thinking, OK, Lord, what are you thinking? And but that's true. I mean, he does in the way he created us. He gives us this like you could do nothing wrong and then that wears off. Yeah.
And then the hard work of marriage starts. Sure. No, you're doing everything wrong. Well, I didn't think it was me. I thought it was you. You know how that how that all goes. We mentioned your books, Seven Days to a Naked Marriage. And I guess the question is, hey, how did you come up with that title?
Everyone's going, did I just hear that correctly? And then, you know, it's it's talking about a bouquet of intimacy, if I could say it that way. Emotional. That's going to be our next book. But first, OK, of intimacy for some of those folks that are going, what, what, what they use the word naked. God uses the word naked. What? Yeah, I know. Hey, Genesis.
OK, give it to me. Well, in Genesis two, it talks about Adam and Eve, the very first married couple being naked and unashamed. And that's really where having a naked marriage comes from. It's being naked.
Yes, physically. That's a part of it. That's an awesome part of it. But that's not the only part. We've got to be naked physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And basically it means being vulnerable, being vulnerable, you know, showing everything, really being known and fully knowing your spouse. I mean, that's really the goal.
Yeah. And that's when you get that grit that you're talking about that we don't tend to have, you know, in those first two years where we're going off the dopamine we had from the infatuation. But when, you know, everything really gets, you know, the reality hits that like, oh, my gosh, we're imperfect people and we have to work things out.
And I don't like every little thing you do. Like, there's things that annoy me and I need to work through that. You know, that's where we have to get that grit to work through all those things. And we get that by being honest and by loving through those hard times and not letting it be this conditional kind of willy nilly.
If I'm not feeling it, I'm not going to be here for you kind of love. Well, I think even, you know, we're kind of giggling and laughing about the title and all that. But there is a deep problem in the church.
I mean, even some people listening and I get it, everybody. There's a certain I don't know if it's false prudishness about it, but that the Lord created us. Right. Yes. Naked and unashamed like we were just there. We didn't know any better. Right. Adam and Eve, this is who we are. You made us.
Everything's good. And then sin enters into humanity and all of a sudden we're covered and ashamed. Yeah. And we still live that way. Even if I can say it, even in the Christian community, marriages live in that place of cover up and shame.
Yeah. But they don't have to is the good news. Like we get back to God's original design and by his grace. And we can get back to that place of being naked and unashamed where, yeah, we still have flaws.
Nakedness is that picture of vulnerability where whether it's physical or emotional, it says like, this is me. I've got a warts and all scars and all. And I see you and your scars, too. But I accept you just the way you are.
You accept me just the way that I am. And there's such a an intimate connection that happens when you can be fully known and fully loved by someone. And God fully knows us and fully loves us. So he went first.
I mean, he went first with showing us what that looks like. But in marriage, we can get back to that place. So it's it's heartbreaking for us. And we see couples that are hiding from each other, hiding certain things, because they're robbing themselves of that deep, wonderful, intimate connection that God designed them to have.
You you did premarital counseling, by the way. That is critically important. Again, we lean on a lot of research here.
Focus. I think that's one reason. Hopefully you trust what we have to say, the resources that we produce, et cetera. But the minimum number of hours, if you can receive 10 hours of premarital counseling, your likelihood of staying together is quite high. It's in the I think the 90 something percentile range for 10 hours of counseling. Now, we were we Jean and I, we saw that we had probably 12 couples in our premarital counseling. I think three walked out saying, yeah, we're not ready for this. That's good. But that's a good that's a good thing.
I mean, that they were it caught their attention. We are not either meant for each other or, you know, we need to do some work. So how was your premarital counseling? And did you guys go in going? We are so much alike. Yeah, we know we got it.
We get a discount on our wedding license if we check this off the box. But oh, my goodness. No, but we learned a lot and it challenged us and it was a wake up call. It helped us.
We're not nearly as good as we think. So you were in there and you realize that. Oh, yeah. I wasn't that smart. No, we did, especially in the area of communication. We went in very prideful because both of us have degrees in communication. My parents are right. It was a dumb major. No, it's not. We've used it. How are you going to feed yourself with that major?
I don't want to go. They honestly did ask that. Really, they did.
Here you are. No, but we really did. We thought even with like relationships, like we were like, oh, even in marriage, like we got this. Like we majored in communication, like we got this. And they did this exercise with us where basically they had us each say something and the other could not talk.
When the other was telling a story and it was like in a minute or something. And we're supposed to listen intently. And then when they're finished, we're supposed to say what I hearing you say is. And then we would say what we thought we were hearing them say. And we both did this.
And we both really got it wrong. Like, because I think what we were doing, instead of actually listening, we were thinking about how good we are at this and what we were going to say back. And we were assuming we knew what they were going to say, because that's what we tend to do.
Like, well, I hear the beginning of this and I'm just assuming I know the rest of the story. And right then and there, it was like it was a wake up call to us, like, man, we have a lot of work to do in this communication thing and that it's not something that you just arrive at, like in life. It's a journey. Like you're always learning about each other.
You always need to be a good listener and not just think about your response, like really listen to your spouse. And so we've we've worked on that, you know, for 22 years. We're you know, we're still learning. It's always learning. Yeah, it's it's a lot better than it was. Better than it was. I'm a work in progress. It's good to let her answer that question. That was excellent. How do you feel like it's going?
I concur. Now, I have that problem where I finish, you know, people are going to go, you are kidding me. But I'll tend to if Jean's kind of taken a little while to put the noun at the end of the sentence, I'll offer three or four. You're like a Google auto changer. She's so good. She likes she'll look at me and say, can I finish my sentence? I'm still doing it.
We've been married 37 years. I think it's a little lower volume, but it's like this thing I can't get rid of. And that's what you're talking about. That's not. See, I interpret good listening skills as finishing someone's sentence. I'm really listening to you.
In fact, so intently, I can finish what you're going to say. Right. They don't think so. Exactly. Exactly.
No. And I've done that for Dave. Like there's been several times where I'm like, I'll insert something. And he's like, no, that is not.
Yeah. Like I'm going to go get a sandwich. Go for one.
Go to love. No, no. I'm going to go to take a shower. Multiple choice. Yes.
Let me say it. Exactly. Exactly. That's the benefit of premarital counseling is to learn. Oh, we have a tendency maybe to do that.
Yes. And I'm glad you're listening to focus on the family today with Jim Daly because we're talking about marriage. And some of the foibles, some of the challenges we all experience.
Dave and Ashley Willis are our guests. And they have written and spoken about marriage a lot. And they're sharing a lot of their own personal experiences with us today. They've captured a lot of the content that we're talking about in a couple of books. There's a wife's edition and a husband's edition of seven days to a naked marriage. This is a great day by day guide to developing intimacy. And we've got this bundle of books for you.
The show notes have all the details. Dave, one obstacle to the vulnerability of marriage is something you call emotional sunburn. Now, being a fair skinned Irish guy, I'm connecting with you. I have had plenty of sunburns in my life. And now I go to the dermatologist quite regularly.
But what does that mean? Emotional sunburn? Yeah. So like when our family would go to the beach, we noticed that none of us were applying sunscreen effectively and we were all pretty fair skinned. And so by the time we get back home at the end of the night, everybody was sore, needing aloe and just in a bad mood.
Why did we go there? That was horrible. And I would notice that if someone would come and just tap my back like, hey, Dave, how was your day? And they'd pat me on the back.
I'd want to punch him in the face. Right. Because they touched a place where I was wounded.
It had nothing to do with anything they did wrong. There was just under my shirt, there was this wound that they could not see. And in marriage, I think we all kind of carry to some level these invisible emotional sunburns that over time, you know, our hearts have been wounded by different things. Maybe we've even wounded one another.
These wounds can be invisible. And yet when our spouse in close proximity to us just says something or just kind of touches us a certain way, it might evoke this irrational emotional response that surprises them and makes them think that they've done something terribly wrong when really it's just a defense mechanism that we build up to protect our own wound. And so in marriage, you've got to become experts in navigating each other's woundedness and not lashing out in your own woundedness because it's something that all of us are prone to do. When we're hurt, we tend to lash out and cause further damage.
But in marriage, we have to take a step back even in our pain sometimes and lean in and really work through the process together. OK, I'll stick with the analogy of the sunburn. So what's the aloe? What do you put on that soothes that pain?
That's a great question. I think that the aloe is a combination of listening, of tenderness, of compassion, of encouraging words, of just serving one another. And depending on your spouse's temperament, their personality, the level of the woundedness, their own individual kind of love language, all those things, that aloe might look a little bit different. But for all of us, it's going to require a lot of tenderness and time. Well, and I think one of the challenges you have there is that it's typically an external treatment, meaning your spouse provides it. If you have those wounds, it's hard for you to provide it for yourself.
But when your spouse is able to soothe you, that's a good thing. Yeah. And really, we also have to lean lean into the Lord on our own. Of course. So like our spouse has to be part of that process.
But your woundedness is something you need to take first to Jesus and find that healing in him and then let your spouse be part of that process. Don't shut them out from it. Don't push them away. You use the books. You use actually the marital vows.
We haven't really said that. One is to love and cherish. And Dave, I understand you like to illustrate this vow with living room furniture. I'm not sure.
That sounds really romantic, by the way. It is. Yeah.
Connect the dots for me. Yeah. Well, I'm a visual learner, right? So if I can like see something, I just kind of understand the concept more. And so in one of the talk we did at a marriage conference, we had some furniture on stage.
There was a loveseat in the middle and two individual chairs next to the loveseat. Oh, that's that's good. Yeah. Yeah. I know where this is. Right.
Yeah. So so the loveseat we would sit in and we say, OK, now this represents it's an actual loveseat, but it represents, you know, love where love should live in your marriage, where you're united. You're here together. But another posture marriage can have is when you're in these two individual seats. You know, you're not the same place. You know, it's his and hers. And from this distance, it's so easy to get disconnected, to blame each other, to not lean in, to not connect intimately. And so many couples are in this dynamic. And so the whole goal is like, let's get in that loveseat together, which means we're united physically, emotionally, spiritually, and we're together. You know, our proximity is near one another, both physically and emotionally. And if you're not there, if you feel that distance, then work actively to figure out where the distance started. And then how do we get back together?
How do we write this course and get back in the same place again? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Ashley, you've been really vulnerable in the writing of these. And even when we've been here at the studio talking, you guys are refreshingly open about your shortcomings, which is great. That's what we attach to, because when we're honest, we got similar ones, if not the exact same ones. And in that way, you don't always feel lovingly or inviting toward Dave, especially when you've been dealing with children all day long.
That's completely understandable. What advice do you have for wives, mothers who struggle to cherish their husbands because they're not that cherishable? So I guess the quid pro quo there is, A, do we have to earn that cherished spot? And then B, how does a woman show that kind of cherishedness toward her husband, if that's a word? Yes. No, I love that question because I do, especially when we are in the thick of raising children, we can get so kind of focused on the kids that we get frustrated when our husband actually needs something.
Like when our husband comes to us and is like, hey, you want to have some intimate time together or hey, do you want to go on a date? It feels like another thing on the list. And so what I would say. So when you say, are you serious? That's really not a good response, right?
Probably not. But I mean, I totally get the sentiment of it. And I've probably said it before myself because I do. I think we feel like there's all these plates we're keeping spinning these all these things we're trying to take off the list or whatever. But I think that we can't see our husband in our relationship with our husband that way. I mean, this is the one that we have pledged to live our whole life with.
It's our best friend. And so we have to to not see him as another thing on our list and really make intentional time for him to really spend that time and talk to him. And I mean, that may look like putting the kids to bed earlier than you normally would so that you can have an actual conversation with your husband.
I know. And the kids, I would just say the kids aren't going to like it. The kids are going to like an hour earlier bedtime.
But that's OK. I mean, you're the parents. You've got to set those rules and just have that time. And even just, you know, making sure that there's room in your day for your spouse. And I would encourage husbands to especially in the thick of raising kids, like, don't let everything fall on your wife. You guys are partners.
You're in this together. Make sure that you're communicating well and assume the best of each other. Assume the best that he didn't know that you expected him to do that or she did not know that you had put that on the calendar. Like, just go and communicate and say, listen, I would like more time with you.
And if you go from the heart, I mean, that's how you cherish each other is really getting to the heart of things. And that you want to have that time together. Actually, one thing I want to recognize for wives and mothers right now is that as you were talking, it hit me. Everybody's pulling on you.
Yes. And I get that because typically in that busy season, you're not as the wife initiating intimacy. And you feel like I've got the kids pulling on me and I got my husband pulling on me. It's pour out, pour out, give, give, give, give, give.
Who's filling my tank? Just describe that. And then what can we do as husbands to help fill that tank up in a way that feels true and not motivated by some other underlying desire? Exactly. No, in that you just hit the nail on the head. I think that that is when wives feel like, oh, he's only doing this because he knows we're going to have special time together later. It can feel inauthentic.
And so I would say, yes, I agree with you. I mean, I remember those times my kids are a little older now, but I remember feeling like, man, literally, like literally and figuratively, everything and everyone pulling at me. And it just felt like, gosh, can I just have a moment to myself, you know?
And I would say as a husband, what you can do is help help give your wife that moment to herself. Like, I remember just a little example when we had we had several small children in our house and we were at a new place and I was trying to get kind of, you know, into the community. And I had this girl come up to me at church and said, hey, Ashley, I heard it used to be a dancer. Well, we have a dance team at our church and it's kind of a small group, too. We pray together.
We do life together. Would you like to come? And I'm like, well, yes, I would love to come. When do you meet? And she was like, Tuesdays at seven or whatever. And immediately I thought, I have too much on me.
I can't do that. And I later on in the day was talking to Dave about it was like he was like, how was your day? You know, and I was like, oh, well, Sarah came up to me and told me that the church has a dance team. Isn't that just so cool?
They celebrate the arts. Man, I would just love to be part of that. It's just too bad I can't.
And he stopped me right there and said, no, no, no. When is it? And I was like, Tuesdays at seven. And he goes, I will rearrange my schedule.
We're giving you Tuesdays at seven. And it was like every week having small children. And at the time I was staying at home. So it was like I was at home all day with kids, which is awesome. And I loved it. But to be able to go and be with people who love the Lord, who love to dance, who want to pray with me and do life with me.
It literally just was it was like when fresh wind to me. Yeah. And so I would just encourage husbands. It may not be a dance team for your wife, but like find a way to give her that time. And then I'm telling you, when she sees you being intentional about giving her that time, it naturally she feels cherished.
And she's going to lean in more to you because she knows you're trying to be a true partner. What a wonderful conversation today with our guests, Dave and Ashley Willis. This has been a best of edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We had such a strong response to the first time we aired this.
We're bringing it back and plan now to join us for part two of the discussion next time. Now, meanwhile, contact us about getting the bundle of books that we've talked about, the husband's edition and the wife's edition of Seven Days to a Naked Marriage. Make a gift of any amount to the Ministry of Focus and we'll send those to you.
Our number is 800-232-6459 800 the letter A and the word family. Or, of course, you can donate and get that bundle of books. We've got the link in the show notes. And at the website, you can learn more about our entire Best of 2024 collection. It's got some great conversations, including one with Lee Strobel about the evidence that proves the existence of God. And a conversation with Curtis Chang about handling anxiety in godly ways. And then the impact that your birth order has on your marriage that features Dr. Kevin Lehman.
These and so many more programs, 18 in all, are free to you and we've got details for you, as I said, at the website. And if I could remind you to think about focus at the end of the year here, about 50% of our budget is raised right now. So if you can support the ministry, we would deeply appreciate it. In fact, when you support the ministry, you're the one doing it.
You're supplying the engine with that fuel to make it happen. And your prayers and financial support mean a great deal to those that we're going to touch together. Think about it. Partnering with us to strengthen marriage, empower parents, save a baby from abortion. There is so much good that's being done. I hope you'll join the team and support us today. And so I encourage you to give today a monthly pledge or a one-time gift.
And let's see what exciting things God will do when we work together for his kingdom. Yeah, donate today and you can do so when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, or we've got details in the show notes. Well, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back for more marriage encouragement from Dave and Ashley Willis as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. We'll talk with you, pray with you, and help you find out which program will work best. Call us at 1-866-875-2915.
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