For more than 25 years Monica suffered from an addiction to drugs and alcohol, fueled in part by her painful and shameful past. The thought would come to my mind that I had had these abortions.
I would not want to think about it because the pain was just too real. Thankfully, God healed Monica's heart and today she supports Focus on the Family's pro-life ministry. I want to support a ministry that can help change the trajectory of people's lives that are contemplating abortion. I can't go back in time and change my life and change my decisions, but I can support a ministry that can help possibly change someone else's.
I'm Jim Daly. Let's save babies and give families hope today. Donate and your gift will be doubled.
Call 800-AFAMILY or visit FocusOnTheFamily.com slash gift. And we're convinced, and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity. Well, those are insights from Bob Paul and he, along with Tara Lalande, joined us earlier this year on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to help married couples. And this was one of our best programs of the year. We had so many people deeply moved by what we shared that we wanted to give you another opportunity to hear it. Thanks for joining us today.
I'm John Fuller. John, yesterday we shared the first half of the show and it covered unhealthy patterns of conflict and how you can break through them with self-care, even if your spouse isn't participating with you in that. And if you didn't get a chance to listen, I'd recommend that you go back and hear that.
You can get the app or go to the website to get that program. Today's show involves what boundaries look like in marriage, and it'll give you some more tools for healthy communication. Tara Lalande and Bob Paul are both counselors with Focus on the Family, and they co-wrote the book that this conversation was based on.
It's called Empowered to Love, discovering your God-given power to create a marriage you both love. Get a copy of the book when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, or stop by the show notes for the link. All right, here's the second part of this best of 2024, Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Tara and Bob, welcome back. So good to be here. Looking forward to the discussion.
For me, it was engaging because I'm going, oh yeah, okay, that's me and Jean. But let me hit another button here. Tara, I'll aim this one at you. One barrier to being empowered to love is blaming your spouse for your unhealthy conflict.
Now let me see everybody's hand if you have done that. Man, yeah, I mean, it's just human nature. What would you say to someone who is struggling with that? Let's just pretend you're talking to me, for example, about how I tend to blame Jean for things. Yeah, well, in the book, there's actually a story about how God convicted Bob in that. Shall we let Bob share that story or what? Yeah, you want to share that? Bob, would you like to share that? Then Tara can analyze it. Okay, yeah. Oh, that's fun.
I'm sure she can, as a matter of fact. You know, I was a world-class blamer. I mean, it seemed to me that every time we had a conflict that I would be focused on what Jenny did I didn't like and what I wanted her to do differently. And I was whining and complaining because she just wasn't getting with the program and making the changes that I was suggesting.
So I'm not, you know, she's not listening to me, so I'm whining to God. And God met me in a very convicting way. And he basically asked me a couple of questions.
And when he convicts me, he usually throws me off guard. So the first thing he said is, Bob, right now, who are you seeing as causing the problem? Well, her. That woman you gave her.
That's exactly right. And who are you seeing as holding the keys to the solution? Well, again, if she would just, instead of this. And he said, so, Bob, who has all the power?
Well, she does. And, Bob, how did she get it? Well, I guess I gave it to her.
He said, Bob, I didn't give you the power to give it to her. I gave you the power to use responsibly. And that's the biggest thing that we see about blame. Is that when you're blaming the other person, you are inadvertently giving them your power and disempowering yourself. And that is not God's intent. So we really suggest back off of the blame.
You're not doing yourself or your relationship any favors. Now, let me ask this Gary Thomas in his great book on marriage. And, of course, we interviewed him. He's a good friend of the ministry.
And we got into this. And he said, you know, it's not common for us as a couple to know that what marriage is about is about making us more like Christ. Selfless. Right.
And rubbing off those edges. And I think about that a lot because if that's part of the institution of marriage that God created for us to become more like him in that institution of marriage. To become more selfless. That means we have to not be selfish. And, man, are we selfish in our relationship. Probably the most selfish relationship we have is with our spouse in different ways. Until you're getting healthier and healthier and then you realize, you know, when the Lord said to men, lay your life down for your wife.
Ephesians 5. Wow. I mean, what a command that is. And can we really do it emotionally?
I mean, woof. Now, you know, it's interesting because I would agree with everything you're saying. And at the same time, caring well for yourself is not being self-centered.
It's actually just attending to being fully who God created you to be, whole and healthy, so you can bring your best self back to the relationship and to your spouse. And, you know, what's interesting, Jim, you were talking about infatuation. And I'd like to speak into that for just a moment. That first couple of years of your marriage. Oh, yeah, because it is delightful.
And what we've analyzed and what we talk about a lot in the book is that what's exciting about that is that we are on this journey of discovery. Getting to know this wholly different, unique individual that has all these delightful qualities. And then the relationship begins to fade. And it loses that spark. And what people don't realize is that what causes the romance and passion to dissipate is that we actually stop being focused on getting to know our spouse like we did originally. And we're convinced, and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity.
And you've got to get to the point where you go, same old, same old, there's nothing new to learn. And, matter of fact, I can tell you one of the most sad counseling stories that I ever encountered. Wait a second. Everybody want to hear that? Okay, we do.
Okay. Guy came into me with his wife having the situation that's maybe the most common we deal with. He'd had an affair. He was very upset because he was a devout believer and he was very critical of people who had ever had an affair. And then he found himself in that position and he said, what's going on here?
And he did some work before he came to us that most people don't. He figured out why. And what he came to me and said was that the reason was because I had inadvertently let the romance and passion in my relationship fade. And I want you to help us rekindle the romance. And I told him what I just said to you, that actually the essence is fascination and curiosity. And you've got to continue to be in that journey of getting to know each other in deeper and deeper ways.
The Hebrew word is yadah, to know. Okay? So, he looks at me like this and he puts his – he leans back and he goes, I don't buy it.
Okay. I don't get why. He says, Bob, my wife truly is maybe one of the most loving people on the planet, but she's just not that complicated. And I'll tell you, there is nothing about her that I don't already know. And then he wags his finger at me and her, because she's there too, and says, I dare either one of you to come up with anything about her I don't already know. And I looked at him. I said, man, if that's the case, you're sunk. But I knew he was wrong.
Yeah. Because truthfully, one lifetime isn't close to enough time to fully get to know any human being, yourself included. I mean, I've been married now for over 43 years. I am learning new things about Jenny Paul every single day. And just to make it interesting, she keeps changing on me. But that's okay. There's always something new and exciting to learn. There is that little hard-to-get thing that is very interesting. I am.
I'm learning new things about me all the time, and I've been hanging with me even longer. Yeah, that's – okay. So, I would think that is an extremely prideful man to think he could get there. Yeah, and very deceived.
Yeah. Because, I mean, his wife – So, what happened? Did he say, aha?
Did he go, okay? As soon as she said, well, this is something you don't know about me. No, she actually was believing that about herself. And they actually left, and he figured I had nothing to help him with because there had to be some magic pill that I could have given him instead. And you know what's really kind of sad is another place where this happens very powerfully spiritually is people who have been in church for a long period of time get to a point that they think they got him figured out. And if one lifetime isn't close to enough time to get to know any human being, a hundred lifetimes isn't close to enough time to get to know our Lord, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. And the romance fades out of your spiritual life.
Let me – my mind is spinning, but let's keep this moving. You have a story about the links that Jenny, your wife, went to in setting boundaries with your early marriage because you were not cooperating appropriately. What happened in that story? This is the most commonly told story in our organization. I love this story. I shared it with her. We all love this story.
It's very embarrassing, but it's sadly true. You see, as I said earlier, when Jenny would do something I didn't like, I thought the thing that I was supposed to do as a responsible husband is to go to her and talk to her about the things she did I didn't like and the things I wanted her to do differently. And for some reason, she never enjoyed those conversations.
Let me just have a gut check. Tara, you're a woman. You're a wife. Is that the way we men should approach that, is straightening you out?
Yeah, doesn't hit any buttons at all ever, every single time. Okay, Bob, back to you. And it never went well for me either. So my wife, thankfully, is a woman who has a very strong sense of self, and she started realizing that if she was to change all the things I wanted to change, that soon there'd be no Jenny left. So she and God got into cahoots, and I came to her one day with that in mind, started yapping at her, and she said, uh-uh, and she walked away. Now, of course, I'm not going to be put off by that, so I just started following her, yapping at her as she goes, and she's going from room to room until finally she goes and she locks herself in the bedroom.
And I'm thinking, cool, I got a captive audience, I might as well get comfortable. So I sat down on the floor outside the bedroom door, kept the barrage going until I heard the car start. She literally pulled the screen off the window, opened the window, climbed out the window, was driving off down the way to get away from me. And I'm thinking, she doesn't care about God, she doesn't care about me, she doesn't care about our marriage. And I was sadly so mistaken because I had no idea how much I was so off base, I was so unsafe, I was so committed to trying to change my wife.
And, you know, it's bad enough when you try and change your spouse and you get on their bad side, but, you know, you're kind of thumbing your nose at the Creator saying, hey, you could have done better, and I don't recommend that. Just for the record, Jean loved that part of the story the most. Jenny going out the window. She was like, I love her. And she came back, and I said, you know, you were bailing on us, and she said, Bob, why are you making this about you?
I was taking care of me so I could get myself back to a better place so I could bring a better me back to the relationship. So what have you learned about those boundaries set by Jenny? I mean, what have you learned about that? Are you cool with it now? I've hated every boundary, she said. My wife is what I like to call a boundary ninja.
Everything I've learned worth learning about boundaries, I learned with her setting them with me. I hated every single one of them until God said… Yay, Jenny. Yeah. Really? I hated everyone until God said, Bob, what she did is good, I want you to learn how to do it, and I want you to teach others.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, there's a lesson right there. Tara, let me ask you in setting boundaries, which I think wives, I don't want to be too generalistic or stereotypical here because the shoe could be on the other foot. It can. I get that. But wives seem to know how to set those boundaries pretty well. Oh, some do. Yeah.
And some don't. And when I think about that boundary setting, the healthy aspect of it, I would think that, again, women tend to wear guilt so easily that that could be the conflict in the boundary setting. Well, I want to set this boundary, but should I?
I don't know. You get the head discussion going there. Oh, yeah. But speak to that issue of healthy boundary setting. Right.
Well, first I want to clarify, boundaries are not about making my spouse do or not do anything. Jenny wasn't setting a boundary, so he would stop. Right. Jenny was setting a boundary so she could take care of her. Yes. So that she could show up well. Right.
So we don't want to just trade. Yeah, got it. And don't be my Holy Spirit, I'll be yours.
No, he's actually very good at it and he's still on the throne. Right. That's right. Amen. So a healthy boundary is basically, first off, saying a request that, you know, I'm not happy with this behavior and I would like this behavior to stop or to change. But with every request, no has to be an acceptable answer. Always. For love to be love, no has to be an acceptable answer.
We feel very strongly about this. So that works with boundaries too. So your spouse says, no, I'm going to keep doing this. Okay. The boundary then is what do I need to do to make sure that I am safe in this situation? And that might be, I need to step back. I need to go to a different room. Climb out the window. I need to climb out the window. I need to do whatever it is that I need to do so that we can come back. And I would say, I'd be open to have this conversation with you, but not like this. Yeah. And if every time you come at me like this, I will be backing away.
But if we can do this differently, I really want this. So it's not a temper tantrum. It's not punishment.
If the attitude is punishment, that's not a healthy boundary. This is I'm stepping away to be healthy and I'm giving opportunity for us to do this better within healthy parameters. Tara, when your spouse is ready to connect with you emotionally, a tool that you talk about in the book is heart talk. Okay.
All the guys just curled up in a ball. What is heart talk? Heart talk is very similar to active listening, to be honest with you. And many people have heard of active listening and reflecting back and forth.
But what we think is unique about this is the heart component of it. So two roles, you've got a speaker and a listener. Sounds obvious, right? Yeah. Except that so often listeners are speakers in waiting. Now you're killing me. I'm always finishing the sentences.
Yeah. We're one step ahead of our speaker or we're trying to think of, Oh, I got something to respond to that. You're not listening. I'm trying so hard to change that.
Jean just gives me the look when I finish her sentence. Like that's not what I was going to say. I appreciate your input. Can I finish my sentence now?
Choose your own adventure. I'm actually saying this. Yeah. So you're speaking about emotional content.
This isn't talking about what you did yesterday and all of that. This is about me and how I feel. So it might be helpful to build some emotional vocabulary. We do have some emotion vocabulary lists at the back of the book in one of the appendix, cause it's not easy, but then the heart. So the listener lets the speakers communication touch the heart.
They care about this. When Vince is sharing something with me from the heart, it doesn't happen all that often with Vince and it's gold when it does and everything stops and I'm listening for what he's trying to say and I let it touch me. I don't have to agree with him. That's not what hard talk is.
Hard talk is this is your experience and this is how it impacts you and that matters to me because you matter to me and then you reflect it back. So what I'm hearing you say is this. Am I getting that right? That's an important question. No, that's what you said. I know.
Am I getting it right? Cause maybe, huh, I said that, but that's not what I meant. It's this. Okay, so it's not that.
It's this. Yes. Yeah.
And that is so powerful. When we feel understood, so many spouses want to say, yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I understand. I don't know if you understand, but if you say, I'm hearing you say, when I did that, it made you feel hurt and like I was talking down to you. Oh yeah, you do understand.
Yeah. That's powerful. So often as I've heard counselors talk about how to resolve conflict, you know, I'm listening to the way they put the words together.
It's very appropriate. They've gone to school to learn how to do this. They sat for hours with couples to learn how to do this. And they'll say, you know, when your spouse says this, then the way you need to respond is to say, honey, I hear what you're saying. This is how it makes me feel. And this is how I'd like to respond.
It sounds great. The average Joe and Jane, we don't do it that well. You know what I mean? And so how do we... Normal people don't talk this way. Exactly.
It's right. When you hear it, it sounds like it's dripping with honey. That's exactly how I should be talking to her.
But then a week goes by and it's, hey, you really upset me. It's not the wonderful language of the counselor. How do we practically move into a direction where we can have these conversations? Well, you know, it's interesting that we teach hard talk as a way to put like guardrails on your communication vehicle on the road so you keep your communication vehicle out of the ditch. It's really simple. It's just some simple rules.
But honestly, you follow the rules just until you get good at it. And then you don't have to think about it anymore because you want to have successful communication with each other. And where we really encourage people to start is talking about using the tool to talk about positive stuff, not negative stuff. Because if you only use hard talk, every time a bad thing comes up, when Jean comes to you and says, honey, can we have a hard talk?
Your immediate reaction is going to go, oh, no, here we go. But there are so many positive things that go unsaid that are taken for granted. And you can practice using that. You know, there's things that Jenny does every day that thrill me. For me to take a moment and say, hey, you know, can we have a hard talk? You know, when you did this yesterday, I felt so great. And, you know, that's an easy one. It's a great way to get good at doing that.
So when the tough stuff comes up, you can have a facility with the skill and just lean into it and it just flows naturally and effortlessly. Do you want to give me a couple of the rules? Wait, wait, wait. Let me toss in a side note. Bob was talking about putting romance back in and curiosity, using hard talk in those positive things.
Talk about a way to build – All the guys just went, okay, now give me those rules. Yes. Absolutely, yes. Let's go. This will lead there.
Right? Okay, what are some of the – just as an example, what are a couple of those rules? It's very simple. Okay.
You've got a speaker and a listener. This is predicated on this incredibly complex principle of taking turns, okay? Okay, good. Whoa, that's okay.
It kind of started in elementary school. Yeah, right, okay. So you have – and the speaker really is just focusing on what's going on with them emotionally, caring about their own feelings enough to be willing to share them, and then sharing, using an iMessage, when something happened, when this happened, this is what happened, okay? That's easy. The listener needs to be focused on hearing the heart, okay? And we use the acronym ICU for the steps.
It's very simple. Identify feelings, care about the feelings, seek to touch you, and then seek to understand. So, what I heard you say was this.
Is this what you were feeling? And do it tentatively. Let the speaker confirm that you got it, because the communication isn't complete when you, as a listener, think you get it. The communication is complete when the speaker thinks you get it. Okay.
Yeah, that's good. It's very simple. There's nothing complicated about this. And when we speak effectively to one another, we're actually doing this. We don't realize we're doing it. We've got a couple of minutes. I just want to kind of put into cement this idea that you're on the same team.
You talk about that in the book. Sometimes that's hard to understand when you're in the heat of disagreement. But how do you capture that and say, wait a minute, we're on the same team here. What does that mean to be on the same team? Well, first of all, this is a rule of relationships, a law of relationships God created, okay? Marriage is a team sport.
Whether you acknowledge it, whether you understand it, whether you recognize it or not, it's God's design. And when you're on the same team, there's only two possible outcomes. You both win or you both lose.
There is no such thing as a win-lose outcome in marriage ever. It's purely an illusion from the pit of hell. And the enemy wants us to square off his adversaries. He uses a divide-and-conquer strategy. That's one of his fruits, to divide. Yeah, that's what he wants to do.
And Scripture says very clearly, a house divided cannot stand. So the second we square off his adversaries, he's got us. He doesn't even have to stick around.
He can go mess with the neighbors. He's got us covered. So we want to resist that. And we have a no-losers policy at play in our house because I realize Jenny is my teammate. And if Jenny walks away feeling bad about an interaction or I walk away feeling bad about an interaction, our team loses. And we are refusing to let them continue to have parties in hell at our expense.
We do not want that. We want to walk away victorious. So we've got to be attentive to the fact that both of us have to feel good about what we're doing and where we end up.
Or the whole team is lost. You know, that is perfectly said. And some listeners right here at the end are going, wow, okay, we're not nearly where we need to be. And it's not a condemnation. This isn't necessarily a grade.
You score an F. It's the realization that we're not living in the fullness of what God has created. And what a beautiful picture that is when we do. And it is possible. You're saying that at Hope Restored. These couples, maybe not everybody, but many of the couples that go have this lift spiritually in their marriage. They understand each other far better. You did a great job recapping that a moment ago, Tara. So what do you say to the woman, the wife, who's realizing, okay, this is touching the need that I've been feeling?
Yeah. Well, first of all, if you're willing, get the book. We give all kinds of resources for that wife or that husband. It doesn't have to be both of us have to buy in to buy the book and get benefit from this. If you both do, you can change your marriage. But say it's just the wife doing it. Say she's the only one who's interested in making this change, in doing this work.
Real, real change can happen. In fact, on many levels, that is the marriage that I live in. Vince isn't interested in using these tools or doing this kind of work. It's not his wheelhouse.
He has other really cool things, but this is not him. And that's okay because God didn't wire him that way. And he's teaching me to love the man I married, not the one that I want to make him.
Wow. And to love me and know that my God loves me and he can be the husband. Hard truth. He can be the husband that I long for in those deep emotional connection ways.
Until such time, if ever, he sees fit to make those changes in Vince. But I got to tell you, God is so good and he is so faithful. And the relationship you can have with the Lord this way, with an open heart to him, you can feel that intimacy, that fullness. You can then love your husband well for God's well done, good and faithful servant. And it'll feel good.
Yeah. What I'm hearing, I mean, that is shalom. That is God's peace for you as a wife. And that is so good. That contentment, no matter the circumstances.
Well, Tara's honesty was so refreshing. And I appreciate her and Bob's faithful work with Focus on the Family. They are just two of our dedicated staff working every day to bring families like yours, the resources and support that you need. And one of those resources is Hope Restored. If you're facing a crisis in your marriage or even if you just need a, probably a more serious marriage tuneup, I hope you'll consider attending.
And John will share how to get more details about that in a minute. Divorce statistics are still devastating, but the number of marriages being saved by Hope Restored is significant. And with your help, we can keep putting a dent in the divorce rate and making a generational impact for the families that we help together. Especially now at the end of the year, we need your financial support to plan for the next season of ministry. And I hope that as you celebrate the holidays coming up, you consider donating to help us give families hope. Yeah, call us today and make a generous donation as you can. And we'll say thank you for being a part of the support team by sending a copy of the book by Tara and Bob, Empowered to Love. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family, or you can stop by the show notes to learn more about Hope Restored and make a donation. And for more of our Best of 2024 shows, we've put them all together in a Best of 2024 audio collection that you can download.
It's totally free and the details are in the show notes. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Do you feel that chill in the air? It's finally that time of year to decorate the tree, put up those Christmas lights and bake some cookies. Then kick back with some hot cocoa and a new season of the Christmas Stories podcast. We'll bring you new stories to warm your heart, fun Christmas activities to do with your family, and reminders of Christ's love for us. Listen at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Christmas Stories or like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
