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Money has a way of revealing what our hearts are chasing, but biblical temperance is more than willpower. It's a gift of the Spirit that helps us enjoy God's gifts without letting them take God's place. Pierce Taylor Hibbs joins us today to talk about how temperance shapes the way we handle money. And then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, we're continuing our series on the cardinal virtues and how Christian character shapes the way we handle money. Last week, Dr. Greg Forrester helped us explore prudence. Today, we turn to temperance or self-control with Pierce Taylor Hibbs, author, theologian, senior writer at Westminster Theological Seminary, as well as the author of The Book of Giving: How the God Who Gives Can Make Us Givers. Pierce, it is a pleasure to have you back on the program.
Happy to be here, Rob. Thanks for having me. Here's uh when many people hear the word self-control, they may think about willpower, maybe discipline, or simply saying no. But from a Christian perspective, what is temperance and what does this virtue really mean?
Well, you're right that temperance or self-control tends to be viewed in the secular world at least as willpower.
So, if we lack self-control, it means that we're not trying hard enough or we need more discipline. And some people even treat willpower as a character trait. You either have it or you don't. But in scripture, self-control is not disciplined willpower or a randomly assigned character trait. Self-control is actually tethered to our heart.
and so our lack of self-control reveals what our heart is chasing.
Something other than God. And then the presence of self-control reveals a heart that's contented in God and His promises.
So, self-control is really a heart issue, it's about how we relate to God. And in that sense, self-control isn't about denying everything enjoyable in the world's eyes. It's about keeping the right order of our desires.
So God needs to be first, both in what He's doing in our own lives and in the lives of those around us, and then everything else is secondary.
So self-control is really about keeping first things first. Yeah, that is so good.
So, how do we get it? What does that look like?
Well, it's critical for Christians to realize that, you know, contrary to popular wisdom, self-control is not just gained through willpower. The biblical counselor David Pallison said that you don't ever solve the problem of willpower by sheer will. That's just a flawed method.
So he said, self-control is a gift of the Spirit, of course, according to Galatians 5:23.
So when we lack self-control, when our desires are out of order, we need to ask for it in prayer from God who has given us a new heart in Christ. And so self-control is ultimately a gift of God's Spirit, not just a human character trait. Yeah, that is so good because it really flips this conversation from being something that's purely negative and about restriction and really making it more about reordering our desires toward something better, right? Right. And I think that that reordering is actually very encouraging.
Of course, self-control could involve restriction because we have disordered desires for things other than God.
So it's not surprising. that will have some restriction. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we won't enjoy good things. It's all about the order or the priority of those desires. Yeah.
So perhaps an example would help for you to help us process through this in everyday life. Yes, two humorous for me examples are caffeine and sugar, which most people can identify with. Sure.
So think about this: would your world fall apart? if someone told you that you needed to stop drinking coffee. or that sugar was off the table. If your whole world would fall apart with that. then you might have a temperance problem.
The problem isn't that you like coffee or sugar. I love coffee and sugar. Sure.
The problem is that you might love those things more than you actually love your relationship with the Lord.
So maybe a good way to assess yourself is to ask, what is my heart chasing right now? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that just really helps us to think about it in light of a way that's practical. And even as we think about money, and that's where we'll go after the break, there's such a clear connection here in terms of our heart following our money and this idea of self-control, which is not something we see in our culture.
So when we come back today, we'll continue to unpack this. We'll look at scripture, we'll look at the culture, and we'll talk about how temperance intersects with our financial decisions. Today, we're talking with Pierce Taylor Hibbs, author, theologian, and senior writer at Westminster Theological Seminary. Stay with us. FaithFi is grateful for support from One Ascent.
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Yeah.
Self-control is the spirit-given ability to enjoy God's gifts without letting them replace God as our ultimate treasure. Hi, I'm Rob West. With me today, Pierce Taylor Hibbs. He's an author, theologian, and senior writer at Westminster Theological Seminary. He's also the author of the incredible book, The Book of Giving: How the God Who Gives Can Make Us Givers.
We're in the middle of a series on the cardinal virtues, and today we're looking at temperance or self-control. And Pierce, before the break, you were helping us understand how really this is a reordering of priorities. Yes, it can be restricting ourselves, but it's really about making God our ultimate treasure. But this whole idea of temperance and self-control certainly intersects with our money as well. Why do you think money is one of those places where our desires become especially visible?
That's a great question. In 1 Timothy 6:10, many people are familiar with the verse that says, The love of money is the root of all evil. And why is Paul saying that?
Well, he's actually saying something about heart corruption. which is related to temperance or self-control. And it's not coincidental that he's saying it about money. Jesus actually pointed out the dual pathway before many people. You either serve God or you serve money.
So, why is money the arena in which many of our desires become visible?
Well, the short answer is in civilized societies, money is sort of like a magic key that unlocks every other desire of the heart.
So whether you're chasing lust or materialism or power or respect, money is the magic key.
So when it's viewed in isolation from God. Money says What do you want? I can get that for you.
So, when Jesus says we have to serve God or money, he's saying you serve God or anything else. Money gives us access to that. Anything else. And that's why what people do with their money is heart-revealing. It shows what you chase.
So, you can use your money in a good, positive, biblical way to show that your heart is actually chasing God or. You can use your money that reveals that your heart is chasing something else. Yeah.
So, your money management, your spending decisions tell a story that can be incredibly revealing and convicting at times as well.
Now, we obviously live in a culture, Piers, that is just constantly encouraging us to buy now and upgrade and experience more and satisfy every desire. How does that environment make financial self-control so challenging? It is very tough today because our technology and materialist driven culture puts all of the things our hearts could possibly desire front and center. And things like social media are literally built to push curated products into our daily feed.
So, whatever things you're interested in, you can probably bet that all of them have been pushed at you in social media or through email. And that means that our heart commitment to Christ is constantly tested. It's tested not just by evil things, though there's plenty of that in the world, it's also tested by good gifts. From God, that then we become more infatuated with than the Giver Himself. Yeah, that is so good.
And I think it's important for us to understand that this is really just not about self-improvement. I mean, self-control is one of the fruits of the spirit.
So, how does that illuminate perhaps the importance of this conversation on self-control differently? I think that the answer to that, biblically speaking, may seem naive to some people. But if self-control really is a fruit of the Spirit, as Scripture says, than is one that's freely given to followers of Christ as they ask for it in faith. And if we're honest, I think most people don't believe that merely asking for self-control is going to work. They want a five-step program or a data-driven method or an approach from cognitive behavioral therapy.
All of those things have their uses. But God really does give us the things that we ask for in Christ when those things align with the values of God's kingdom. And self-control certainly. Plays into that. And that also means that people who practice self-control, and you may know many of them, are people who are actually blessed by God.
And we tend to delete God from our assessment of how other people live. We just think, oh, he must be so disciplined or he's so regimented. But if self-control is a gift, then you can look at those people as gift recipients and say, wow, the Lord has really blessed that person. I would love to be blessed that way in Christ. That's such a good idea.
And I think this distinction is really important here because if self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, then it's not just about trying harder.
So let's talk about the role then of grace. What role does grace play in helping us grow in temperance? A critical role. I think the sad thing for me is that so many of us, myself included, get focused on what we call secondary causes. Those are the kind of on-the-ground causes that we think of as directly related to our problems.
And yet in Scripture, All of the writers tend to focus on God as the primary cause for any amount of success or pleasure that they enjoy.
So, for example, when an Old Testament warrior, such as David, goes into battle and has victory, he doesn't come back and say, Oh, thank goodness I've been practicing my archery and my hand-to-hand combat. Because if I hadn't been practicing, I would have lost. Right. Instead, he says things like: the battle belongs to the Lord. Yes.
That's a primary cause, right? He goes right to primary causes. And I think if we keep primary cause in focus, Then we're very aware that it's grace from top to bottom. If we have any success at all in self-control, it's by the grace of God. It's not because we found the next best method for curbing our impulses or something like that.
Mm. Let's dig into God's word a bit. Where do we see Jesus modeling this perfect self-control that only he could provide? And what can we take away from that? Yeah, beautiful example is in John 21, which we may not think to look at, but so many of us equate self-control with depriving ourselves of anything good.
And that's not really what self-control is about. As we've been saying, it's self-control is about the order of our desires and enjoying the right things in the right way.
So in John 21, Jesus comes to his disciples after his resurrection, and they've spent a whole night fishing. And Jesus doesn't say Why are you guys wasting time on fishing? Just focus on God. Yeah.
Instead, he says Do you have any fish? and then he helps them find some. And he helps them start a fire and bake bread, and he invites them over, and he says, Come have breakfast.
So fresh fish and warm bread are not evils. They're good gifts. but they're best enjoyed with Jesus. And that's the perfect image for enjoying any good thing in this world and having self-control. You don't have to deny yourself everything that's enjoyable.
You don't have to abandon money and become a hermit. But you should be enjoying everything in your life with Jesus at the center. And that's what self-control is really all about. It keeps Christ at the center. as our heart's greatest desire.
I love that. We're getting short on time, about thirty seconds left. Give us one takeaway in terms of how we can live this out in our financial decisions in the week ahead. I think the best question I've found to ask for any financial decision or life decision is simply this. How is God remaining central in my decision?
Now, that question is going to show you what your heart is chasing.
So, that's the best question I found to ask: How is God remaining central in my decision? Wow. What an encouraging reminder. This is an important conversation. Pierce, thanks for your time today.
Happy to be with you. Folks, self-control is the spirit-given ability to enjoy God's gifts without letting them replace God as our ultimate treasure. Our guest today has been our friend Pierce Taylor Hibbs, author, theologian, senior writer at Westminster Theological Seminary. Pick up his book, The Book of Giving: How the God Who Gives Can Make Us Givers. We'll be back with your questions after this break.
So call right now, 800-525-7000. Stick around. Imagine having biblical financial wisdom delivered to your inbox every week, helping you integrate your faith and financial decisions for the glory of God. At FaithFi.com, you can join a community of over 70,000 people who are already receiving our weekly wisdom email, filled with articles, videos, podcasts, and exclusive offers on resources that will deepen your understanding of biblical stewardship. Start your journey today by creating your FaithFi account at faith5.com.
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More information, including the short video webinar on profit and peace of mind no matter what's happening in the market, is available at soundmindinvesting.org. Taking your calls today here on Faith and Finance, 800-525-7000. Let's head to Eugene in Mississippi. Go ahead. Hello, Rob.
Thank you so much for taking my call. My wife and I sure do enjoy listening to the program. And we, I don't know if it's enjoyment or appreciation, but both do apply. And it's just such an uplifting thing to hear the insights that you have about dealing with financial matters and doing it in that godly manner. But my question is, it's concerning my wife.
And I, I'm 67 years old. My wife is 68, and we're considering what we need to do. when the RMD kicks in, when I turn seventy three, we have a traditional IRA. And as I look at that and try to do my own projections, I'm concerned that once that begins and those withdrawals Each year would go up in percentages that along the way, especially if I am passed away, that along the way the RMD could cause her to go up into the higher tax bracket. And also possibly affect her Medicare payments premium increasing along the way, too.
So I'd like to just hear your thoughts on that. And I could give you that number that we have in our IRA if that would help. Yeah, I think the same principles apply here regardless of what the balance is. But it's a great point that you make here, Eugene, and it is something to consider because, to your point, you don't have to take RMDs until based on the current law, 73.
So you can wait and do nothing. But the real question is not just should I wait, but should I choose to take money out now to manage taxes later? And I think that's the key idea because if you wait till 73, you get more tax-deferred growth. That's a good thing. And you've got no taxes today.
The downside is, to your point, you've got a larger IRA later, you've got bigger RMDs, and that could push you into a higher tax bracket. And to your point, that could also create a situation where you've got that IRMA additional premium on the Medicare.
So, the second option, then, which I think you're getting at, is should you start to take some withdrawals now or convert to Roth? Which does not have an RMD and gives you that tax-free growth, and spread the taxes out over more years, potentially stay in a lower bracket, reduce future RMDs. You've got to, of course, pay the taxes sooner. And the key would be: do you have the money outside of the traditional IRA to pay those taxes now? If you do, then that can work really well because you're not, you know, pulling extra out to pay the taxes.
And you can use this strategy where people often talk about filling up your tax bracket.
So essentially, if you want to stay within a target tax bracket, let's say 22 to 24 percent, recognizing that tax brackets are low right now, probably the lowest they'll ever be. If they're going anywhere under a future administration, they're probably going higher. And so, let's take advantage of this and let's fill up these brackets up to the top of that threshold before you begin to spill over into a higher bracket. And let's do that systematically between 67 and 73. And if, again, if we can pay those taxes out of current cash flow or taxable savings, you know, that's.
Great. The other strategy that you'll be able to use after 70 and a half is. Perhaps you stop doing all of your giving out of your savings or checking or taxable dollars and start doing all of your giving out of your IRA through a qualified charitable distribution because that's the other way, you know, where each year you could get more than $100,000 if you wanted to out of the traditional IRA, never pay any tax on it by sending it straight to your church or another ministry, which is another strategy that could work really well. And I think the combination of those two, filling up the brackets with Roth conversions and the qualified charitable distributions, could at least prepare you so you don't have as big a tax bite down the road. And it's not even just about your wife.
You know, if you're leaving some of this to heirs and not giving it all away, which either one is fine, they're potentially going to be pulling this out over a 10-year period. And perhaps they're doing it during the peak of their working years, which means. Means they're going to pay a ton of tax on it. And by getting as much into Roth as possible, you would go ahead and pay that tax bill now so your heirs wouldn't have to pay it later. Does all that make sense, though?
It does. And you're actually echoing so many things that I've read already, but I felt it was important to just hear your thoughts on that. Because my biggest concern is if I precede my wife, that would change her tax situation and have her exposed to Medicare premiums going up. And the bit I read about that looks like that could be a pretty significant increase. Yeah, that's exactly right.
And that is something to be aware of because, you know, what you're pointing out here is what they call this widow's penalty, where when one spouse dies, now the surviving spouse eventually starts filing as single. That cuts the tax brackets in half, but the income may stay similar.
So she's now in a higher bracket. And because of the Irma, she's got a higher Medicare premium.
So the Part B and D could see significant premium increases, which I think then ties back to this strategy of getting as much out as makes sense without paying unnecessary amounts of tax now and shifting that money into Roth on a systematic basis over the next six years. All right.
Well, thank you so much, Rob, for taking your time and all the folks there that helped you do this. Again, it's such a blessing for my wife and I to get to listen to the program. And if nothing else, we just simply enjoy it.
Well, I appreciate that. That's very kind of you, Eugene. I really appreciate you and your wife being faithful listeners. And it's a privilege to talk to you today, sir. Stay on the line.
I want to send you a gift. We'll send you the most recent issue of our Faithful Stewart magazine. I think you'll enjoy it and call anytime. Let's go to Chicago. Hi, Tina.
Hi, how are you, Rob? Thank you for taking my call. Sure.
Your show has been a blessing to me. I've been listening for years.
Well, thank you. My question is, I have been overpaid Social Security SSDI. I have been paid an overpayment. and I'm paying it back. And I wanted to know, do I have to have all of that repaid before I retire and get my retirement benefit?
No, they'll put you on a payment plan, and it can be extended into your retirement benefits once you switch. And it wouldn't prevent you from receiving retirement benefits. It will just reduce your benefits equal to that payment plan that you have until it's all repaid fully. Does that make sense? It does.
Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah.
So I think the key is just make sure you know what that payment plan is. If you don't have one, you're going to want to talk to them to get on a payment plan to ultimately repay it back since you can't do that in a lump sum. And whatever that amount is will just be reduced from your retirement benefits when you get to that point.
So hopefully that helps you. We appreciate your call today. Big thanks to my team today, Dev and Robert and Taylor. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
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