What are you doing wrong, Bill? I'm like, I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm like, well, I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong either.
And we were looking for where to place Blaine. Yeah. And so in the middle of this, I said, Pam, it's not you. It's not me. It's just life. That's Bill Farrell and he and his wife Pam join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thank you for being along.
I'm John Fuller. Hey, here's an observation. Every marriage goes through some predictable and unavoidable transition. You ever think of that?
I have. I've experienced that. It's just the nature of relationships. I think we have those expectations. We lay it out and then then it all starts happening.
It's quite different than what we expected. And we're all familiar with big transitions in marriage, like baby makes three and maybe another baby makes four. I can do that math. How about you? Oh, for you?
It was baby makes six. We're up to a houseful. Yeah. And so, you know, that's part of it. And there are other transitions along the way that will significantly impact your time, your energy, your relationship with each other as spouse. Jean and I, I think we're you know, we've got one out and the other one's got a foot out. And so we're, you know, going through that whole thing, like what do we do with the house now? You know, all the big decisions. Are we going to stay there?
I think we are. But, you know, it just changes everything. It's important to learn how to handle these transitions. I love the Ferrells, our guests today, because they really give us such practical advice every time they come on and talk about the issue of marriage. And I'm looking forward to this discussion because I think it'll apply to me.
I'm going to be listening very attentively because all of us are going to have some sort of transition in life as a couple. And Bill and Pam have been doing life together for a long, long time. They've been in marriage ministry for over 40 years and they founded an organization called LoveWise. They're very popular conference speakers. They've written a number of books.
They're always doing something. One of the books that we're going to be keying in on today is the 10 best decisions a couple can make. Bring out the best in your relationship. And you can find out details about the Ferrells and that book at our website.
The link is in the show notes. Well, welcome to the couple that's always doing something. That sounds exhausting.
We just hope it's something, well, not necessarily important, but something godly that he would honor that. That sounds like a bumper sticker where she just put it like, we're always doing something. Always doing something. It can feel that way sometimes though, right?
Yeah. I think I've kind of mastered the art of kickback. I enjoy a little relaxation. That is good.
I don't feel guilty about it at all. That is very good. We all should master that. We're in this stage, right? We've earned it.
Okay, let me jump into this opening question. Why do we call it the midlife crisis? I don't feel like we've hit a crisis. Is it coming? Is it around the corner?
That is one of Bill's pet peeves. He's like, it doesn't have to be a crisis. Okay, so we're in agreement on that. Oh yeah, midlife crisis markets well. Yeah. If you say, hey, today we're going to talk about how to do normal life.
Everybody goes, is there something else on? But if you talk about the crisis, you talk about the difficulty, you talk about the disaster that's coming, everybody clues in. We do want to honor our mentor, Jim Conway, who coined the term midlife crisis and it didn't even exist really before that. So it was important to talk about. And if you don't know it's coming, it can become a crisis.
Okay, let me ask you this question. When you look at husbands, how many of them see it as a crisis? And when you look at wives, how many of them see it as a crisis?
As a rough percentage. Yeah, I would say about half of them because like Bill said, if you know that it's coming, then you invest well and you make smart decisions and it doesn't have to be a crisis. But most people just like fly through life and don't really think through life or prepare well.
Like if they're not listening to focus on their family, they might not be ready. And everybody I know evaluates life at midlife. So you will evaluate.
Yes. If you know it's coming and you're used to evaluating your life, you can navigate it. If you're not used to it, you can throw your whole family topsy-turvy and then everybody's calling it a crisis. So why does this transition present this either make it or break it marriage situation? And have you seen that happen? Like people say, okay, we're done.
Kids are out. Yeah, I think it's important when we talk about it that we separate out a women's midlife and men's midlife because they happen at different times. Okay. And we all know about the men's midlife crisis because it's gotten lots of attention. We don't talk much about the women's struggle.
And there's actually two for the women. The first midlife evaluation is what I call it. It happens between 28 and 35-ish. But it seems young. It is really young. And that's why it's not really a midlife. It surprises women.
And so that's why it can become a crisis. What's that sound like? And so what it sounds like is, okay, why am I on the face of this earth? Like is it just to like change diapers and do dishes and just to have a paycheck and does anybody really appreciate me? It sounds like a little bit of an attitude.
Sorry. And it is an evaluation of what is meaning to me and why am I on the face of this earth? And if a woman seeks God during that stage, it is a wonderful growth opportunity. She's like, you know, God put me here. These are the gifts he gave me. This is how he wants me to use it. And it's all good.
Pam, let me let me ask you this. It's true for all of us when we're confronted with biblical truth. Sometimes we don't like it, you know, and we are selfish people. And the Lord's going, please come this way. Walk this way with me. It'll be so much easier. And we ignore it and we don't accept it.
We don't accept that reflection in our own lives about where we're at and our attitude like you just described. How do you how do you just say, OK, I'll relent. I'll give in, Lord. I'll do it your way.
Yes, sometimes it's longer and it's more of a wrestling match. But sometimes it's shorter because it seems like an invitation from the bridegroom to the bride. Like, you know, here I have this dance for you. I have this wonderful ministry I want you to do. You're so valuable. I want to unleash your gifts to the world. And that is a really if we can see God in a positive view and answers invitation, then life's second half from like thirty five on is an exciting adventure.
Yeah. Let me let me read you a note that we got from a woman who was not happy in her marriage. And it kind of you know, I'm so grateful to the supporters of the ministry that we're here for this person.
And this is multiplied many times over with all of the response that we get, which is great. We want to hear from you because we want to help you get to a better place. But she said this. I feel like I made a mistake by marrying the man I did. We're not the same people we were when we got married. We want different things, have different morals and values. That'd be a big flak and disagree on how to raise our kids. All we ever do anymore is fight.
Am I supposed to continue on in this miserable relationship? Wow. This is what we're talking about. That's a woman speaking desperation about her life, her companion, her husband. How does that strike you?
And what would you say to her? Well, that is a really common malady, I guess we would call it for women. And I think the red flag there is I'm miserable and no, God doesn't want to be miserable, but he doesn't want to just opt out either. And so there is a happy in between.
It's called like counseling, going to an intensive focus of family has great intensive. Yeah. And so oftentimes it's just a little bit of investment. And, you know, the studies say that women, when the kids launch about 66 percent or more now are the ones that file for divorce. That's that graying of divorce we talked about.
It is. The women see the misery and sometimes the men like have just their head in the sand and they're willing to like go along and get along. But women want to do something about it.
And so they do something about it. It doesn't have to be going to the lawyer. It can be going to counseling, even just for yourself. Yeah. Let me ask you about that, because, you know, when I read that note, it's almost like she's looking for affirmation to get out.
Right. You know, please tell me my feelings are right and that the best thing I could do is get out of this miserable relationship. But that again, I don't know why other than our said nature, we find that easier to do than, you know, putting in a little work into maybe a lot of work into your relationship with your husband or wife. And that actually will pay off far greater than the divorce and bringing all your luggage or baggage into the next relationship.
And financially, a divorce can wipe you out and emotionally for your kids being on the stage of that, they can pay a big price. And so it's the time to step back and not only think of yourself, but think of like the whole big picture. And one woman came to me when I was a director of women's ministry. She's like, I just want out of here. And it was the same kind of email, you know, only it was verbally given. And I said, OK, well, before you go, how about we do this?
We pray and ask God if he'll show you one positive thing about your spouse. She's like, all right. And I'm sick.
I'll meet you for coffee tomorrow and we'll see what he says. And so she did. She prayed. I asked her the next day and she's like, well, he's here. I said, all right, let's build on that. So we brainstormed as many ways as we could creatively saying it's nice to have you around. Oh, it's nice that some things in life don't change. She'd walk by and she'd see him sitting there with this, you know, newspaper again or the TV on, you know, sports again. And but she would just walk by and rub his shoulders or tap him on his leg or bring him just a word of affirmation.
It's nice to have you around. And an amazing thing happened. A few days later, he got up out of the chair. The lazy boy was always in and he saw that she was reading your Bible. She's like, what?
What are you reading, honey? She said, well, this Psalms. And she read it. And he's like, well, that's pretty cool. And she said I was helping her with this problem at work. And then the next Sunday, he was up dressed for church. And she's like, why are you here? He said, well, it's because you said it was nice for me to be around.
And he wanted to be around even when she went to church. Yeah. Yeah. That's just that simple. I call it the 101 principle. You take the one positive thing and put 100 percent of your energy there and just see what God might do for you. And I would add to that that the truth about marriage is every marriage is one breakthrough away from being a good relationship. Now, it often doesn't feel that way. But the Bible tells us clearly that marriage and the gospel are reflections of each other. And the way the gospel works is you go from being lost to being found in a moment. You go from being God's enemy to God's friend in a moment. And marriage can do the same thing.
But prior to that breakthrough, it can feel very intense because we lose the language. Like in marriage, the heart cries out. And often when the heart's crying out in one spouse, the other spouse is speaking responsibility.
Yeah. You know, I need you to take care of the kids. I need you to take care of this. I need you to take care of this. Because we have all this stuff to do.
We don't have time for your needs. And the other person is crying out. Early on, it's the wife crying out. Later on, it's the husband crying out.
We miss the language. And then we miss the breakthrough. That is really insightful. I want to come back to something you alluded to, Pam, especially for women, and that's that safe place.
I don't want to give the sense that, you know, if you call focus or you talk to a counselor that it's all about straightening you out. You need a safe place to express your concerns, like that woman wrote. Right. I was her safe place. And then together we went before the Lord and he became her safe place once again. You know, she had to journey a bit.
You know, so I was just a guide. I basically just felt like I held the flashlight of God's word and just kept giving her a piece at a time. Because when you're in emotional turmoil, sometimes you can't handle a really huge amount of scripture, but one piece at a time, one day at a time. Well, in every relationship that's intimate, it needs both energy and compassion. And if a couple is upset with each other, they got a lot of energy working. It's not working in the same direction.
Right. If it can shift to being compassionate, you know, like you can hear it even in this letter, there's a cry out. I want us to be unified in the way we raise kids. I want us to be unified in our morals.
I want us to be unified in decision making. And if the two of them can discover compassion and build that together, all that energy starts working for them rather than against them. And that's why oftentimes we encourage an intensive. Because when couples are in midlife, it's super busy. Like everything's crashing down at the same time.
Your kids are like tweens, teens, going to college, and there's all these expenses like cars and proms and graduations and weddings then eventually. And you both might be at a crescendo at your career. And so going to an intensive just three or four days gives you time to really listen to each other. And think about it.
And think about it and invest and learn some new skills. And yes. That's good.
Bill, let me turn to you. Pam's done a great job describing that woman, her frustrations, etc. And maybe as part of the response here, expectations. I mean, what you're describing, like we're not on the same page with moral values or raising the kids. That suggests there is an expectation that may not have been expressed or expressed in a way that didn't wasn't heard. And again, that's part of growing together.
Right. We end up with these expectations and husbands. The joke is typically we're a little dense.
You know, we don't really can't read your mind and we don't really know. Sometimes you're saying it plainly and we still don't get it. So in that regard, Bill, maybe you can describe the husband that's usually working a lot heads down. He doesn't look up for 20 years. He's just he's just going and trying to provide and doing those things.
Well, there's this wow. There's this great moment that happens in a man's life when he realizes my life and my family is going to cost me a small fortune. And it kicks him into gear. And as a man, you either go into into production mode and say, OK, it's my family. That's what it takes.
I'm going to do it. Or you get mad at everybody you love. I don't mean to reduce this to brain chemistry, but you mentioned it in the book about fight or flight. There's probably a component of that. When we feel overwhelmed, we're looking at two doors, right? Right.
Let's get with the door, step up and go or let's check out. Yeah. And a lot of guys do. They just like they look at it's too hard and they say, I don't have what it takes. But if a man says, yeah, I got what it takes, he will bury himself in responsibility. You mentioned the male mentor and the significance of that. I've had a mentor, Steve, and he's been great. I probably have been talking with Steve regularly since 2005.
So it's been a long time and it's been really helpful. And he's not the pushover type. You know, he hits me between the eyes when he needs to.
And he's got this incredible ability to know when to do it. Yeah. Which, you know, OK, good idea, Steve.
Good thought, Steve. But speak to the importance of that. Well, I was really aware as a young dad that I need to get a mentor because everything I'm facing is brand new. And I didn't have the kind of relationship with my dad where he filled me in or I could go talk to him. And so I realized I need to get a mentor. I want to make a big mistake. So I started meeting with Jim Conway, who was kind of a forerunner in this whole arena.
And my goal was I want to learn how to be a pastor and I want to learn how to raise a family in a ministry context. And I figured Jim was a good option for that. And little did I know that he was going to shake up the train to keep me seeing what was going on because I had a conversation with him one day. And my question to him was, how do I get Pam to cooperate with me more on decision making?
I love that thinking. Yeah, because we were in the press of life. We had our third child. I was pastoring a church. The kids were busy. We were busy. Stuff's flying at us at light speed. And I just figured if Pam was a little more cooperative.
On your page. Yeah, then it would be easier. I think that's true. And Jim looked me in the eyes and said, do you need to control your wife?
Good word. And my first reaction was, that's a horrible response because I'm not trying to control my wife. And then I realized, actually, if I could control her life would be easier because I could stay in production mode.
So I need to take this seriously. And I need to listen more to Pam and I need to be more cooperative with her so that we can stay productive. But it's a hard thing because a lot of times when I would stop and spend time with Pam, I was afraid I wasn't going to get stuff done. And if I don't get stuff done, then I'm not going to succeed.
If I don't succeed, I'm not as much of a man as I thought I was. And it becomes a big identity thing for men. So men want to work hard because it makes us feel better about ourselves. And when we're stopping and we're taking care of the family and we're trusting God to give us the time back that we're investing in the people we love, that's not an easy road for men.
It's walking by faith. Yeah, we'd much rather just be supermen, work really hard, and everybody admire us and recognize what we're doing. And as men, we need to take on the challenge that if we love our families, God will help us succeed in our careers. And it's a big step of faith for men. It's easy to say.
That's a good word, really. And you know, you mentioned mentors, and both men and women should have mentors, somebody who's just a little bit further on the road. And we also encourage couples to have a couple mentor, you know, that you can hang out together with them. I like that concept.
Yeah. In 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make, we like talk about how to find those kind of couple mentors where both the husband and wife are available to build into your life. And for example, we look for a couple that have a life that we'd like to live. You know, do they have the kind of character?
Did they have the kind of life pace that you're looking for or how did they get there? And you look for a couple that you might have something in common with so you can, you know, go golfing as you talk about your marriage or you can, you know, play pickleball nowadays, right? That's big.
That's very big. And then look for a couple that's like in your world somehow, maybe in your church, in your neighborhood, in your family circle. And then look for a couple that you admire their character, that they are something in their character that you'd like to learn.
Their relationship with God that you can learn from. And then lastly, you look for a couple that's willing. Like they have to be willing to spend some time with you. And the easiest way to find that out is just say, hey, can we have coffee together? And ask them a few questions about their marriage and see if where it goes. Like, would you like to have coffee next week? Would you like to have coffee once a month? And maybe just like once a quarter, do something fun together, you know, on a double date. Yeah, that's really good.
Can I emphasize what Pam is saying? Because for the younger couples that are listening, if you walk up to a couple and you ask them, would you mentor us? That's a little intimidating. Most of them will probably say no. Right.
Because they don't feel like they're qualified. Right. So if you can start soft, hey, can we have lunch together? Can we have coffee together? We have some questions we'd like to ask you and just learn from your experience. Most couples will say yes to that. And then if they succeed in that, they'll be willing to do it again. So set them up for success. Don't intimidate them right up front. Yeah.
And then vice versa. If you're on the second half of life, don't walk up to a young couple and say, I think you really need some mentors and we're it. That's pretty intimidating. Instead just say, hey, do you want to stop by the house for lunch after church on Sunday?
Or how can we grab some coffee together? And just start pouring into their life on a natural level. And we've got details about marriage mentoring at our website. Greg and Erin Smalley are passionate about this.
And you'll find details about that on the website. Well, let me let me ask you this. You know, again, we lean into perfecting button pushing.
Right. Buttons must be pushed, Jim. I don't know why we're so good at this.
And maybe it's just me. I don't know. Nobody's looking at me at the table like, OK, go ahead and spill the beans. You become very perfecting of knowing just how to push that button of your spouse. Yeah.
It could be a verbal response or a look or a whatever. And man, that well is deep. You can go there a lot. Yeah. But to your point earlier, it's like zero reward.
Right. But we keep doing it. We keep doing it. When we surrender, it's so much better. Like toward the end of that year, we were just like at our wits end.
We knelt down on our sofa by our sofa. And I'd prayed, Lord, I've just been trying to follow your call. But if there's something I'm not reading right, please, like, correct me. Like, change me. Because Bill's not liking me right now.
And then Bill prayed. My request was, God, I love this for a moment, but I don't like her right now. And if something needs to change, if something needs to change in her, change it. If something needs to change in me, change it. Because we just can't keep doing this anymore.
That's a wake up call. Jean said that to me a few years ago. She goes, I love you. I just don't like you right now. And I was like, how could you not like me?
Not a very good response. God didn't have like a big answer right away. But the next day I was on campus and I had to like stand up for my faith every day in this English class. And I asked Bill to pray.
And he had to be up on campus filming. And so I said, would you pray when you walk by my classroom? And I was looking for a way to tell Pam that my heart had shifted in a way that was believable. Because again, I fought her for a year on this thing. So if I went to her and went, Pam, you know, I get it now. I'm kind of over it. You're giving in.
It wouldn't have been realistic because I fought so hard for a year. And I know Pam likes public attention. So the thought hit me. Okay, I'm going to be on campus. I'm just going to interrupt her class. So I bought a dozen roses. I walked into her classroom. And the professor was teaching that romance was dead.
It's just an illusion. And Bill walks into these roses. Yes. So I gave her a case that I love you and walked out the door. And the professor was like, what's going on here?
Is it your birthday anniversary? I'm like, no. He's like, well, why'd he come in? I said, I think he just wanted me to know that he believes in me. And he believes in the dreams that got his place on my heart, like writing a book.
And then all the women were like, so does he have a brother? And I would say if your wife doesn't like public attention, this is not a good idea. Yeah. But it is Pam's language. And I would say to everybody, though, your recovery should be as big as your resistance.
Yes. Oh, then it's believable. I like that. And it draws your hearts to each other at that point. Let me at the very end here, let me ask this question that that spouse could be husband or wife is thinking we're done. We just need to sign the papers.
We can get it going. What word of advice would you have? That's a big one. Yeah. I would say take one more step, because we're not talking here about, you know, I'm changing my car.
I'm changing the color that I like to wear. It's bigger than they realize. We're talking about a family. Yeah. We're talking about kids and grandkids that are affected.
We're talking about generations that this impacts. It's worth another try. And we don't want to be unrealistic. We know there's some really tough situations out there. But there are a lot of situations that can be resolved with a few practical steps.
And there's so much help in our world today that there's no reason not to take another step before you create years and years of complication and frustration for a lot of people. And I would agree and echo that in that instead of giving the lawyer all the money, all your money, take that same money and go on a trip down memory lane. Go to the place that you first fell in love. Go to the place that you had your first date. Go to the place you first kissed.
Go to the place where you honeymooned and honeymooned there again. I'm ready. Let's go. I love that idea. And, you know, it pleases me as we're talking about this.
We didn't talk ahead of time. But what you've laid out in the book is really reflected in what we're doing here at Focus on the Family. When you mentioned the mentor program, that is something that we've kicked off now. We're hoping to get something like 50,000 mentors in churches to help.
And we can help train you even. It's not going to be deep, but it'll be a light training to help couples think, younger couples think about what they're doing. Hope Restored, you know, a number of the couples coming to Hope Restored have signed those divorce papers. And we've got an 80 percent post two year, actually 81 percent.
It's incredible. I think it's one of the best things for marriage recovery going on in the country. And we want more churches involved because long term, I'd love to see a significant reduction in Christian divorce rates.
You know, from 35 ish percent down to what if we got down to 15 percent or less? Be a part of this. And then, of course, the great tools and resources, which with the Farrell's book, the 10 best decisions a couple can make, which we'll get to some of those. But it's communication and things we've talked about today. And we'll continue tomorrow if you guys are willing to stick with us. Sounds great. But get in touch with us. Become a monthly sustainer of Focus on the Family like John does with Dina and Jean and I do here at Focus. And we'll send it to you any amount.
Ten, fifteen, twenty five dollars is great. We're just trying to grow that number so that we have a predictable budget that we can do the things we need to do, like we've just talked about. And if you can do that, we'll send you a copy of the book is our way of saying thank you for being a part of the ministry. Yeah, join the support team today as you can, either a monthly pledge, as Jim suggested, or if you can't commit to that, we can send that book to you for a one time gift of any amount as well. Again, the title, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make.
It's sure to benefit your marriage no matter what season you're in. So give us a call. Eight hundred the letter A in the word family. Eight hundred two three two six four five nine or donate and get a copy of that book.
You'll find the details in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back tomorrow as we continue the conversation with the Ferrells and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. It's time to level up.
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