Everybody talks about I'm spiraling down, going down, going down, because that's what it's feeling like. Yeah, it does feel that way. But if we're spiraling, the truth is we're blessed because it's in those difficult times we're more capable of leaning into God, of Him being near to us. None of us learn and grow from our good days. We learn and grow from the hard times.
And that's why James says, rejoice when you fall into various trials.
Now, I don't ever get into a trial and think, yay, but in those moments we should because we're about to experience God in a way that we can't in the sunshine. That's Levi Lesko joining us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He'll offer hope, fear, and You in the midst of life struggles. Thanks for being here. I'm John Fuller.
You know, John, that's a big promise you just made. He'll offer hope for you in life's struggles. And I think last time listening to Levi, it's exactly right. He is so good at kind of reducing life to what's essential, what's core, what are you really here to learn. And if you missed the program last time, get it at the website, get the app, because it was really insightful and pithy.
I mean, that's it. He just gives it to you so in such bite-sized forms, which I need and I love.
So today I'm looking forward to continuing that conversation. Last time it was about spiraling down, but really see it as an opportunity to spiral up. And the Lord is with you wherever you're at, at the bottom, at the top. And the reminder that we learn so much when we're in the valley. It's hard for us as Christians to embrace that because we want to live at the top.
That's part flesh and part joy. But God teaches us so much more in the valley. And if you're going through a valley right now, we're just a phone call or click away. We've got Karen Christian counselors and resources for you. The details to get in touch with us are in the show notes.
And Levi Lesko is the co-founder and lead pastor of Fresh Life Church. They've got locations in Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, and Utah. Levi and Jenny, his wife, are popular speakers. They have five children. And among the books he's written is one that we're talking about today.
It's called Blessed are the Spiraling. Levi, welcome back. Thank you, gentlemen. It's so good to have you. Let's start off today for those that didn't hear last time, and hopefully, again, they'll go back and catch that.
But you hit this midlife crisis at 38. That wasn't that long ago. And, you know, some people, like I said, I don't feel like I've hit that moment yet, but all of us will hit something that will drive us in that direction. Describe that for those who didn't hear it last time and just how you reacted to it. Yeah, at 38, which was almost five years ago.
And now I began to have panic attacks at night. I also was struggling with apathy, which had never really been something in my life. I've always had forward vision, and here's the next 10 things. Yeah, I would say the word go-getter fits you pretty well. And I, in that period, hit that slump of I just didn't have the same motivation.
I didn't know if I was going to continue on in the role I was in at my church. And thankfully, With a lot of help and a lot of care, I look back on that as a really great time of development. Painful, but wonderful. And I just laugh because we don't know what we need. We know what we want, and what we want is usually not going to help us.
They did a study where they asked people who won the lottery: Is your life better on the back end of this? And almost without. Question: Most people who go through the lottery, it does not help their life and happiness and marriages and choices. But most people who survive cancer come on the back end and saying, I have greater joy, I have a greater appreciation of life. And so, it's like, Would you rather have cancer or would you rather win the lottery?
Wow, definitely something to think about because we don't know what we actually will emerge from a better version of us. You know, let me ask this tough question theologically. You are a pastor. It seems like some in the Christian community want to construct this sense that. When you're being blessed, when all things are going well, you're actually at the top of the heap.
You're in your upward spiral. And I guess that's a fair feeling when things are going easy. You feel like the Lord's got your back and things are going well, and the job is going well, and the family's doing well. But what you're saying is, no, that may be a false sense of... Footing.
My pastor growing up had a plaque on his desk that said, God, never, please never prosper me above my ability to maintain my love for you. And I think perhaps it's easy when so much, when goods increase, our heart can. Set on the goods, you know, it can become an idol. And I think sometimes in the difficulties, if we turn into God and not run from Him, we can actually grow.
Now, I'm not saying we should seek out, there shouldn't be masochism. Hopefully, like Paul, we can say, I can learn to either have abundance or not have. I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. And the way we get safe to be blessed is we keep just our eyes on Jesus. What would you say were the two or three things that you learned out of your midlife crisis?
Yeah, among them would be a light touch. To keep my identity just on Jesus and then to connect the dots and to deal with and treat previously undiagnosed trauma in my life that was shaping me. I think as long as things are undiagnosed properly, they'll go mistreated. You know, we'll numb them, we'll just sort of run from them, or we'll pretend like they're not there and shove it down, and then it's a big explosion like mentose and Diet Coke down the road. Is there a line you don't want to cross with that where you're, you know, you want a healthy sense of truth?
You know, and we learn so much in our family of origin as children, you know, especially if we had dysfunctional parents that left their mark on us. I'm just thinking of some people that that's where they live then. They're peeling that onion way down. And I think my senses, although I could be wrong, it feels like you could be almost captivated by peeling that onion. Sure.
I think the journey not being the goal. Is the point there, right? It's a tool in God's hands that He can use biblical counseling in community, I think, is a massive, and I think the church. has done historically a pretty bad job of of honoring and dignifying that. The church culture I grew up in, counseling was a synonym for like, you know, worldliness.
You know, it was like, oh, that's totally not trusting in God. And the goal would be that we No longer have our trauma as our template, but God's truth is our template.
So we don't, the goal isn't towards like, well, my anxiety won't let me, so I'm not doing any of these things. And then that becomes like how we see ourselves. And we almost can be left in a perpetual victim mentality, like you said, but as an end, not as an end unto itself, but as a tool to get us to Christ-likeness. Yeah, that is really good. I so appreciate that.
You, this is funny because a hero of yours, Martin Smith, who's a British rock band guy, I think you really liked him and you would listen and you had a chance to meet with him. But what was that like for you to meet this guy? And why did you connect with him?
Well, it was so interesting because at the height of his success, I mean, they were like the Christian U2 back in the day, you know? Right. This is delirious. Delirious. And he, at the top of his influence and fame, walked away from it all.
And we never really heard from him anymore for a long time. And he recently has emerged. And we got to talk for a little while. And he basically said it was for his family, you know, raising his. Family in arena tours just was not what he wanted his kids' lives to be like.
He wanted them to, you know, he wanted to be dedicated and present. And I look at him now, and he's more sought after now as a mentor to young worship leaders and musicians. He's spoken up almost with hushed tones, like, oh my gosh, Martin Smith. And it's so funny because it's the exact opposite of what we all fear. If I am out of sight, I'll be out of mind.
I'm going to be irrelevant if I'm long on the tooth. But he has more wisdom to share, not less, because he prioritized the right things. And so I think it gave me a great comfort with the idea of, you know, for a lot of us, I think, especially with the energy of youth and social media has just poured gas on the fire that we feel like we need to maintain this illusion of hustling towards a platform and on our grind to be successful and influential and be known. And the idea is in God's hands, being hidden, being buried is how a seed gets to be grown. And so just following God what He wants you to do and letting Him take care of the rest.
Yeah, that's cool. I was thinking, I. Had a chance to play golf with Alice Cooper. He's like a six handicap. But the more impressive part of Alice Cooper is years ago, you know, he was drinking way too much and he was vomiting blood backstage.
And his wife just said to him, Hey, this isn't going to make it. And he became a Christian. His dad was a pastor. And then he was thinking about his career and what he needed to do. And he said to a friend who was a pastor, he said, you know, I guess I got to give this up.
And the pastor said, I don't think God would have given you that platform just to walk away. Why don't you use your influence to talk to people about the Lord?
So he's got a vibrant ministry. And I'm not going to share those details backstage stuff, but the people that he's reaching for the Lord are names we would all know. And it's awesome to see a believer like that stay in his groove, but be there for light. Yeah. And I think that's the thing.
I don't think the application for Martin's story is to do exactly what he did, and we all have to walk away from our jobs. I think it's to learn how he thought. He thought, I want. To follow God and be faithful. And even though he said to me, I was afraid of not being seen, not being in the stage anymore, in the center of attention anymore.
But those parts of me died. I had to die daily to pick up my cross and follow Jesus.
So the goal is for all of us to be willing to follow Jesus, even if it's into obscurity. Yeah. You have a story in your book about being in San Diego. I lived down there for a couple of years and went to Balboa Park every night to play tennis.
Sounds like my fascination of heaven. And you say to yourself, I never want to leave this place, Lord. This is like heaven. And obviously I left there after a couple of years. But what happened to you in San Diego?
How did God reach you? I was on this run on Coronado Island and I was looking at all these mansions. And back home, it was 20 below zero in Montana. And so as I was on this run looking at these mansions in 77 degree perfection, I thought to myself, man, it would be really difficult to leave this if you had this. To leave this.
And I don't just mean to leave to go to work. I mean to leave to go to heaven. You would want to hold on to it. And of course, you don't just have to live in San Diego to have a tight grip on the things of this world. But I think the lesson is for all of us to realize: like, this is not our home.
Being comfortable here and having perfection here was never the idea because the Bible says we were born naked and we're going to leave naked.
So we need to learn to have a light touch. Yeah, there were some examples of biblical ownership, if you will, that became stewardship for God. Joseph, who gave his tomb for Jesus' body to be buried. Who else comes to mind in terms of stuff?
Well, so many. I mean, Joanna, the wife of Cusa, the steward of Herod, she supported Jesus with her means, means that she pulled from Herod's paychecks, which is pretty cool because Herod killed Jesus' cousin John the Baptist and was cruel to Jesus as well. And so what sort of Holy Ghost sabotage is it that she was taking that money and funneling it towards Jesus' ministry? But similarly, as you mentioned, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, they financially supported Jesus' embalmment and burial. You also have examples like the widow or the couple that would build a house extension on for Elisha the prophet to stay in when he was passing through.
And there's so many others who, biblically speaking, have had a lot, have had San Diego mansion type money, but have not let it. get into their heart. Money in your hand is not the problem. Money in your heart is. Yeah.
And I would guess, and I know where you're going to go with this, I think, that a lack of money doesn't mean I shouldn't be generous. Very good. I think we all think that idolatry and greed is only something that happens to wealthy people.
Somebody else. But the Bible says that the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and you don't have to have money to love money. And the way for all of us to not let money become idolatry is generosity. It stabs a heart through greed. Trying to strangle you.
Yeah, I think of Priscilla.
So she had this license from the Roman Empire to sell purple garments. Lydia. Was it Lydia or the seller? Lydia, the seller of purple from Tytira.
Okay, so I mean. There's another example of taking Roman Absolutely. Acknowledged. She's a wealthy woman. She had multiple homes.
She had a place in Philippi, but obviously from Thyatira, also. Purple was basically the richest. It was like Versace of its day. And they regulated it. She used that money to funnel the Apostle Paul and supported, let the whole church in Philippi get started in her house.
Go, Lydia. Go, Lydia, go.
So when I get on a flight, I can have a routine of putting my Bose headset on and kind of sink into reading or listening to the word, you know, or music or whatever that might be. Your wife was flying somewhere and had a different experience. What happened with her? She was on a flight out of Minneapolis, and at one point, she opened up the little window shade and saw the full northern lights going off. That'd be a great correct.
And she was like, oh my gosh. And she couldn't believe that the captain never warned everybody, like, hey, we're flying over the northern lights. And so then she got up and walked down the plane, and not one person had their windowshade open. Everyone was just glued to a six-inch screen when they could have been looking at something people fly to Europe to see. And it was just this idea of let's not live a Small life.
Let's not live a life, you know, just Based on the things of this world, when God offers us a panorama of his glory at all times. It's so good. You know, Peb Jackson is a mutual friend. He passed away not long ago, but he, he, boy, he poured into so many people's hearts. He worked here at Focus, worked at Young Life, worked for Rick Warren, and he was an outdoorsman.
And just, he was the guy that. You wanted to hang out with. What did he teach you? Peb was my Yoda. He was one of them.
I had two Yodas that in my journey that I talk about, my spiraling, I talk about in the book. I reached out to two older men and just asked him to speak into it. And he was so gracious to encourage me. And one of the things he taught me was the nature fix. You know, I've always been going after it, which is computer and speaking in airplanes.
And he's like, Levi, you need to get out and catch fish. You need to get out and hike. You need to get out in nature. Nature fixes things inside of us. Man's first job was to take care of a garden.
And so there's something you reconnect with God in a unique way in wild places. And I got to talk with Peb right before he went to be with Jesus, and he was really a sage to me. And he gave me a vision for the third and final season of life, which because he lived and died so well with all three seasons: both the warrior season, the elder father season, but then also the sage season. Yeah. You know, this may be that place to unpack that once again from yesterday, those three phases of life.
I always think of my life in quarters probably because I played football. First quarter, second quarter, you had 20 years each, and pretty much. We're going hockey here. You're going hockey with three periods. But speak to that, and let's question some of the.
Okay, so this theologian said that, and it's a theologian, I wouldn't say I agree with in every regard, but we learn to swallow the meat and spit the bones, right? He said life can be reduced down to three seasons. First season, you build a container. Second season, you have to decide to fill the container. And third, you need to give the container and its contents away.
Yeah. And in that context, As a Christian filling the container, what's our mindset? What does that look like in a healthy context?
Well, let me use the paradigm of my father. My dad went to be with Jesus while I was actually working on this book, which was a whole nother dimension of spiraling in the middle of all this. The building the container would be you're creating a job, whether you're starting a company or a nonprofit, whatever you're doing. And you know what? There's a lot of people who want to scrap all that and just hurry to get to a million dollars and retire early.
And so they're not building a big container to the glory of God. But to the point of Lydia, she was only able to do all that because she built a big container.
So there's nothing wrong with that. And do what God calls you to do. Scale that business for the glory of God. Create wealth. Donate generously to folks in the family, right?
Do all that with God in your heart. The second season is where you fill the container. And we all know the caricature of the person who scaled the company but doesn't have a relationship with their kids, who doesn't know their wife or their second or third wife, right? That's a bigger container, but nothing's in it. It's an empty life.
You have all the money, all the resources, but. No richness. You're really poor if you think about it. But then the third is giving the container and its contents away.
So for my father, it was building a media career in radio, Christian radio for many years, a big container. But then he filled that container with his presence in our life. He showed up at our sports. He was there with me, a present grandfather, but also active in missions all the way to the end of his life. He traveled to Macedonia and was teaching broadcasting to Christian pastors and leaders.
And then the third season is giving it away. And I got to hold my father throughout all of his chemotherapy and was with him when he breathed his last and went to be with Jesus. And so my dad, who taught me how to catch a fish and taught me how to read the Bible, was now teaching me how to go and be home with the Lord. Yeah, I mean, those are beautiful thoughts. You know, there's got to be somebody listening.
And now, I say this, unfortunately, it includes a lot of professional women who have really run hard. I remember, I think, 60 Minutes did a show on these women that have mansions. But never pursued a a husband, never pursued having children. And the six women, if I recall it correctly, are sitting crying. They have a mansion with big backyards, big front yards, and nobody to share it with.
And certainly men have that same failure. But speak to the emotion that women are so good at expressing where men kind of tuck it away. They were in tears on 60 Minutes saying, we miss that. I love Dorcas in the book of Acts, who dies, and all these women weep after her and hold the garment she made.
So the real question isn't, what are we weeping about, right? It's who will weep for us when we're gone? And do we tend towards Instagram and what looks good on LinkedIn? What looks good in a resume? Or are we aware of what's going to be said at our funeral?
Who's going to eulogize us? Our kids? And it doesn't have to be natural, biological kids. You can be like Paul and not have kids, but have a son or daughter in the faith. Dorcas gave her life to the kingdom, had a big container full of things.
And when it was all given away, these women all held the garments up. She made these for us. And God went ahead and raised her from the dead.
So, you know, she was a pretty good story.
So, to the woman who's just career-minded, you might have a big. container, but what's going in it? What is God calling you to do to reach? And to the person who's got a full container, but you're holding on to it with, you know, helicopter mom, helicopter, you've got your finger in it with all your fingernails. Are you ready to give the container and its contents away?
Yeah, it's so true. You make a comparison or talk about General George Custer. I mean, there's a name from way back and the mistakes he made. Elaborate on what you observed with his. He was successful very early on.
You know, he had what's called Custer's luck. He was lucky. He almost got booted out of West Point, barely got his post as an officer in the Army, but he was very lucky early on. And then he liked how it made him feel.
So he kept chasing that. It made him reckless. It made him dangerous. It actually cost him his life in the end and the lives of all of his men because he disobeyed orders and went into his last stand there. And he was clinging to the accolades that came with the fleeting nature of glory.
And I think it's so easy to look at this world and what we can, the dopamine, the joy, the rush, the exhilaration of a conversation. Accomplishments and forget about when we die, we're going to stand before God, right? Death is either leaving home or going home, depending on where your home is. And are we looking for the well-done, good, and faithful servant of Jesus at the gates of heaven, or more for the fleeting fantasy of fame here on this planet? That's really good.
You know, we have another mutual friend, Lisa Harper. Lisa used to work here years ago and headed up the women's outreach that we had here for quite some time. And she is a dynamic person. I mean, I love Lisa Harper, and she's a speaker now, an author, and adoptive mother, actually, single mom. She's filled her container.
She's filled her container with the right stuff. But Lisa came to pray for you when you were kind of at your low in this midlife crisis. What did she pray for? They say when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And she was the friend we needed in our lowest moments.
And I'm so grateful we were vulnerable with her. She said, How are you guys doing? And we could have said, Oh, we're doing great. But we said, Lisa, we're having a real hard time. And we opened up about what we were going through.
My wife was spiraling through some of her own hormonal stuff. Midlife for women is different than midlife for men. And we both were going through it, but we told her honestly what was happening. And she prayed for us while we cried. And it was such a demonstration of the kindness of God.
And I'm so grateful we were vulnerable. Yeah. And she prayed for the trees that they represented the angels around your home. Yeah, God gave her two visual pictures that stick with us to this day. One is that every time we hear the trees rustling, we would remember that they're a representative of angels standing guard over our home.
And then she said, I pray that your son's laughter will be a flood of God's joy, washing your hearts from any residue remaining from the grief of losing your daughter. Yeah, wow. Those are powerful statements. Yeah. Both of them.
God tucked a beautiful Easter egg in nature when it comes to, I think it's the Fibonacci. The Fibonacci. The Fibonacci sequence. This is something I have to talk to Trent about because he'll know about this. But describe what that is.
It's the mathematical representation for a spiral, and it's tucked within all of nature. Pool galaxy, the shell of a snail, or the ram's horn, the shofar.
So there's order and design. It's the blueprint of God inside the spiral you find everywhere. And I just think that's a reminder to those of us who feel like we're spiraling. You're hearing this today, and I'm having the hardest time. And I just tell you, it's not random, it's not chaos.
God has a plan, he's up to something, and his fingerprints are all over your life. Man, that is so, so true. That fingerprint. I mean, are we part of that? Are we part of his spiral?
Fearfully and wonderfully made, without a doubt. Yeah. And God has a plan. He's not abandoned you. He's trying to develop you.
He's trying to grow you.
So if you can spiral down, you can spiral up towards him. And at the end of your journey, it's not something, but someone. You know, Levi, you mentioned your dad. I do want to just get back to that for a minute. I have so many friends that are losing their parents right now.
You know, I lost mine when I was young. And in a weird way, I'm saying, Lord, I think that was healthy. I know that sounds strange. But I'm seeing the anguish of my friends who are in their 50s and 60s who are losing their parents in their 80s and the struggles that they're having with that and dementia and all those things. Um Help me understand what that feels like as an adult losing a father.
You know, my dad was my best friend, best man at my wedding. We talked every day. And he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at 71 on April 2nd and went home to be with Jesus at 72, one year later to the day, April 2nd, the day after Easter. And it was very hard to watch. It was very painful.
The hospice, the whole ordeal, it was agonizing. The cancer in the end ate up his lungs and liver and internal organs. And it was awful to watch him go through it. But his last lucid words. We're wow, wow, wow.
And I think that's just a picture of what he was experiencing in God's presence. That middle zone where God does let you have a foot on one side, a foot on the other. The veil was thin.
So many people that are in that dying modality, you know, they reach out, they talk about seeing angels with their last breath. It's something, if you're a non-believer, you may want to check that out because I think it's evidence of what is real. I think one famous hospice worker who was there at the death of Voltaire said that for all the money in Europe, he would not attend another death of an atheist. And I think that when you do talk about the deaths of God's people, even though there's pain and biologically, physically, there was a lot of awful stuff about it, but there was also a sense of peace and God's presence there. You know, Levi, you have fought long and hard through this spiral.
What about that person who is not doing well, maybe doesn't have that child around them? They're pretty alone, and they're listening today to all the downward spirals that they've encountered. They'd love nothing more to be able to spiral up. Maybe we can just have you pray for them rather than have you speak to them. But let's pray for them, if you will.
I'd love to. Right here at the end. Father, I thank you for my brother or sister. I thank you for this moment that through technology and the gift of focus that we get to have this connection in the Spirit. And I just pray, even if you would just open your hands up just to recognize and appreciate with open palms that God's with you.
And I invoke the name of Jesus. And I thank you, Lord, that you said we get to believe for peace to come into the house where Jesus enters. And Jesus, you've entered into the house, the physical temple of my brother or sister. And I just pray for peace, and I pray for purpose. And I thank you that there's someone that they know they can bless, someone that can text today, someone that can encourage a soup kitchen or a young mentoring program or a YMCA.
To something that boys and girls called, whatever it would be, God, that they can encourage someone. They'll be blessed as they're a blessing. Right here in their spiral, God, would you just calm them and would you call them? In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.
Levi, this has been great. You're like a fastball pitcher, man. You're just throwing it right down the middle with lots of heat.
Someone said I'm a tweet waiting to happen. I don't know about all that. Nonetheless, I mean, you just know the word so well. You live it well. You live with the pain that everybody lives with, the limp.
That so many of us have. And that's why you connect with so many people. You're not trying to project perfection, you're projecting brokenness and God with you in the brokenness. And that's beautiful. That's the word.
That's great. Thank you. Yeah, no, it's really good. And thanks for being with us. And your wonderful book, Blessed are the Spiraling: How the Chaotic Search for Significance Can Lead to Joy Through Life's Shifting Season.
If you're in that spot, as Levi prayed, He's praying for you. You know, God sees all the dots and He connects them, and He knows that you prayed with us there. Get a hold of us. Call us. We have caring Christian counselors who will talk with you and talk about your situation, provide you with resources here that will improve your situation.
That is our goal. And don't hold back. There's nothing that will be embarrassing. We've been at this 48 years. We have a great database of answers to your questions.
And frankly, if it's a new question, we'd love to add it to the team's ability to help someone else.
So get a hold of us. And if you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you. If you can't afford it, get a hold of us. We're a Christian ministry. We'll get it into your hands and we'll trust others.
We'll cover the cost of that. Yeah, we've got the links in the show notes for the book, to make a donation, and to connect with one of our counselors. Of course, you can always call us. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
I'm John Fuller inviting you back when we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. If the fights with your spouse have become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope. Hope-restored marriage intensives have helped thousands of couples like yours. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face them together. Call us at 1-866-875-2915.
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