Levi Lusko's Journey Through Grief, Ministry, and an Eye-Opening Midlife Crisis

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Well, Levi, thanks for being on my podcast. And I'm trying to remember the first time we met. Do you remember when that was? Yes.

Well,. You were touring Calvary of Albuquerque with Pastor Skip and just walking around. He was showing you like the facilities, and you guys came through the office where all the youth pastors worked. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's Greg Laurie. You know, I was very nervous, but I stood up and met you.

And yeah. And then the next time. Because your dad actually worked there with Skip, your dad Chip, who's now with the Lord. Yep.

So you were kind of a little, kind of a little bit hang around the church kind of kid, or were you involved in ministry at that point?

So at that point, I was the youth pastor when I met you there. But I was a hangout in the church kid. You know, I used to work in the tape room. My job was to duplicate the tape cassettes and then put the labels on it. But it was frantic because Pastor Skid would finish preaching, there'd be a closing song and announcements, and we had only that much time to make all these tapes, put the labels on.

So we'd pre-make the labels. I remember it well. You had to shut them in the plastic sleeve. For those that are listening, don't know what we're talking about. Back in the day, everything was on cassette tapes.

I was cutting-edge technology at one point. And so everybody would want to get a tape of the message after this. But it was not easy because you'd have to physically run the master from the sound booth down to the tape room. And we had all these tape duplicating machines ready with all the blanks in them. Oh, that's hilarious.

Slap the master in, and they'd all start going. Then you have to flip them all over to record side B. Flip them over if Pastor Skip went long. I forgot it. Because it could only be 30 minutes per side.

So side B would be the second half of his talk or whatever. I couldn't miss cassette tapes. There was something so simple about them. It seemed very nostalgic.

Okay, so anyway, so you saw me and we met. Was I nice to you? You were so nice. Yeah, you stopped. You said hello.

Oh, I'm glad it wasn't one of those times where you were rude. No, no, no, no. You were great. And I told you, I think that I would do evangelistic sermons in the youth ministry. Pastor Skip at the church had built a skate park.

So we would bring out. Pro skaters, they would do demos, and then tons of kids would come out. And I would, you know, give the evangelist a sermon and I would watch your and study your Harvest Crusade preaching, how you'd put the message together. And, you know, so I was very excited to get to meet you for sure. Oh, wow.

And of course, as you know, I've been listening to you since I was like. Five years old. Yeah, there's a really fun picture. We'll put it up here. Yeah.

When you're just a little kid and you're standing behind our pulpit when we did a Harvest Crusade in New Mexico. And so you, I mean, even at that age, you look really young in this photo. I was 11. 11.

So did you aspire to be a preacher even at 11? I started telling people I was going to be a pastor when I was two. Oh my God. That was the only thing I ever wanted to do. You know, my dad was a bivocational pastor.

He had worked in media, but then started a couple churches. And so I grew up literally helping set up for the church or being around. I was like little Samuel, you know. Oh, so cute.

So, yeah. It's like the opposite of my son Jonathan. That's like the last thing he wanted to do. But then he felt a call in his life later. But he, you know, he did not want to follow in his father's footsteps.

But you did.

Well, your dad was a great model. He was a great example. And we miss him, but not as much as you do, I'm sure.

So, kind of phase two of all of this, you came with Pastor. Skip Hydek from New Mexico to California when he took a church over. He had asked me to kind of step in for him, preach when he was traveling. And I was, you know, having grown up in youth ministry, going to be preaching in the church for the first time, which big church is what we called it. You know, like, oh, wow, get called up from the minor leagues to the major leagues.

Although now it's like, I kind of look at it the other way. It's like, I think youth ministry might be the major leagues, right? Yeah. Reaching kids young. I kind of feel like if you can make it in youth ministry, you clearly have a gifting.

And I've also found that some of the best preachers I know were once youth pastors. Because if you can hold the attention of young people, that's a gift, don't you think? 100%. They're attention. Not only from the fact that, you know, a middle schooler is not going to give you much.

If they're not tracking with you, they're just going to go to sleep. And, you know, back in the day, we used to do our youth ministry programs on Sunday morning.

So you're running an eight o'clock service for a sixth grader who does not want to be there.

So they would literally just, unless you're. Gonna get them and get them out the gate, you're gonna lose them.

So, yeah, I think there's something to that. Plus, I also think the youth ministry is the most well-rounded area that's most like pastoring a church. You have to figure out budgets, events, while simultaneously doing the sermon stuff, you have to do leadership development.

So, it's kind of a little mini church in a way. Yeah, it really is. And I remember when you felt called to go to Montana, and I actually offered you a job. I said, Levi, would you like to come be the youth pastor at Harvest? But you had this strong calling to Montana.

And somewhere in that time period, I remember you told me a story of how you used to listen, going back to cassette tapes for a moment, to this message. That I gave years ago before you would go to bed. In fact, you listened to the same message over and over again, and that was about David. Yeah, so one day when I was a little kid, my dad'd work all day. He worked at Fox at the time.

Then he would prep his sermons in the evenings. And I came into his study, and there was this voice coming out of the stereo, and it was the pastor of Calvary Chapel Riverside. Of course, we know of it today's harvest. But I was mesmerized, just sitting there listening. You have always had a way of telling narrative stories from the Bible that I think brings them to life in such an unusual way.

I mean, kids always are wanting to gather around and listen to you tell stories. If we're sitting at a restaurant, you gather all your grandkids and my kids, and you're telling these stories. And I feel like that comes through in the pulpit in the way that no doubt Jesus did because kids would come to Jesus.

So you're teaching David. I had never heard David like this. It was funny. It was all the backstory on his life. And I was so into it that later that night I asked my dad if I could play the cassette as a bedtime story.

So we brought it to my room. The sermon was titled David is Calling Part Two. Part two. Very imaginative. I don't know where part one is.

Let's see. What do I call this? Part two. David. Comma is calling part two.

Next week, my sermon will be called.

So I listen to it probably every night to go to sleep for months. And I still have the tape still to this day.

So I've been listening to you preach for so long. You've always loomed large in my Mount Rushmore of preaching. And so when I was in that situation where. You know, on paper everything seemed like Perfect opportunity. Take this church, preach at it.

We lived, you know, right next to the beach in Dana Point. We had season passes to Disneyland. On paper, it seemed like a career, you know, calling move that was great. But we also felt this nagging sense of we always were dreamt of planting our own church at the same time. I had gotten in touch with you and asked for you to give me some advice.

You listened to me. You know, you were so great to just we sat down and talked. And Jonathan had been coming to our youth group as well.

So there was that connection. And I got, you know, just Time with you, which was a great honor. And you, at the same time, were like, Well, hey, come on, staff for me. You, your exact words were, do for me what I did for Pastor Chuck, start up a new service, you know, reach young people. And that was a massive opportunity.

But the Lord just really put it in my heart that we needed to go plant this church. And you were so gracious because I remember telling you no and feeling like, oh, that's the last time I'm ever going to hear from this guy. And you were so gracious. You were like, hey, you know what? I think the church plant will be amazing.

And you spoke faith and life over it. And then literally a couple weeks later, you asked me to come and host a crusade for you. And you've been so great to bring me in to preach for you. And it's just meant the world.

Well, you know, and you were a great friend to my son, Christopher. And, you know, coming back to preachers' kids, they're not all like you wanting to be preachers one day.

Sometimes they go through rebellion. Both my sons went through a prodigal phase. And Christopher, you know, drifted away. He, you know, he always believed he never was. He was always respectful to Kathy and I.

He was a great son, but he was just sort of drifting spiritually. But he started coming to your church and really connecting. And I really appreciated the interest you took in his life. And of course, when Christopher went to be with the Lord in 2008, it was so devastating for us. And you were such.

A great help at that time, you know, because you stepped in into Jonathan's life. Because Jonathan was so influenced by his older brother, you know, because Christopher was quite a bit older than Jonathan. Yeah. And he was almost like another parent in a way. And, you know, because Jonathan was just a little kid, I was always amazed at how the two of them could get in an argument.

You know, one time I saw them arguing. Jonathan's like two. Christopher's like 14. I said, Why are you arguing with a two-year-old? Who even cares what he says?

But Christopher managed to do that.

So, how old would he have been when Jonathan was two? Uh, I'd say I said 14. I think he's 10 years older. That's a lot like Olivia and Lennox. Yeah, but it is funny, they can still bicker.

You know what I mean? She's 19, he's seven. It's like, but it's just kids or kids, it's just a sibling thing. It is, but you. We're so helpful to Christopher and then to Jonathan.

In fact, he went to Montana and worked with you for a period of time, and he was really feeling a call of God on his life.

So, you know, we have a long family connection. It's crazy. And walking with you guys through. Christopher's going to heaven, which Was so devastating. And yet, watching you and Kathy and Jonathan struggle through all of that, finding your way.

You guys had been in Montana before with Christopher. Yes.

Watching him. Fourth of July, I was so proud of Christopher, you know, for all of his difficulties and struggles. When he went to be with Jesus, he was at such a high watermark of his faith, of leading his family, of loving. My last meaningful interaction with him was a breakfast where he was just telling me how much he had felt Bad for not being the same example to Jonathan he wanted to be. And I was just encouraging him: like, even in that regret, there's an example.

So to be open, be bold, you know, because he was saying, I feel like I've lost moral authority. And like, you can't, in your mistakes, talk about that. And so I was just, and I was just so encouraged by. His Finding his footing, and you guys blazing a trail through the loss of a child. I mean, we got the front row seat to that, sitting on the beach with you guys while you were ugly crying, like the depths of sorrow.

Yeah. But then seeing you still grab onto God, and you guys came to Montana for some of that healing. Yes.

And of course, all of that. Not knowing that we were about to follow your example and not knowing we were about to lose a child. And, you know, you preached Linda's funeral. And so it's like, it's almost just poetically weird and beautiful that we got to walk with you through grief and then you guys got to return the favor in that same way. Yeah.

So I remember. That so clearly when you called, because we were our whole family was there at our house, we were having a great time. And I got this call from you. I believe the first time. I was in the ambulance.

Yeah, you were saying, pray, pray. You know, it's an emergency with little Lenya. And so we prayed. And then you called us not long after that and told us that she was with the Lord. And it was so hard to believe because we had walked through that together.

And now it's happening to you. And uh but of course that yeah You know, that was such a devastating time in your life, but you have gone through that with such strength, and a lot has come out of that. We wouldn't wish this on anybody, what has happened to us. We joined this exclusive club we never wanted to be a member of. I mean, you stop and think: if you lose your husband.

You're a widow, and you're If you lose your wife, you're a widower. If you lose your parents, you're an orphan. But if you lose your child, what are you? There's not a word for it. I guess devastated.

But so we have a choice at a time like that to become better or bitter. You can just become mad at God, angry at God, but you chose to become better and And to help others, and you've not wasted your pain. And you've written about this quite extensively in your book about Little Lenya. Tell us about that book, how that's impacted people. Thank you.

Yeah. Um, Linya had an asthma attack, as you know. She was five, it was five days before Christmas in 2012. And that night, we had the chance to give her corneas to two people.

So each of them got one of her cornea. They also took her heart valves. I mean, that's a hard thing. We got home, the hospital called, and immediately we were thinking, Did she wake up? You know, like that was our first thought.

Because you're clutching at Anything denial's real, shocks real, but they were like, no, no, we want to cut, we want to, you know, take her heart valves and take her corneas and take these, you know, organs for transplant. And, you know, as much as you don't want the visual of them cutting into your child, it also was like. She would want us to do this, and so we said yes. And later on, these two people get her corneas, and they told us they had been blind but they could see. And that's such a beautiful picture of the gospel, of course.

And linya means lion, and so it just hit me. I was like, wow. They see through the eyes of a lion. And I kind of got this metaphor of them seeing through her eyes and us seeing through Jesus's eyes. And the lion.

Was that a name?

Well, because Linya means lion. Oh, wow. It's a Russian word. And then we called her Linyalion. That was her nickname.

And she was the most ferocious, you know, hair always messy, always in trouble, naughtiest of our children for sure. She had the cutest little voice, too. Like raspy and yeah, kind of smoky, like she had just had half a pack of cigarettes or something. I think she would have been a good singer because that kind of tends to be the voice profile.

So, anyhow, I wrote, I was in my office. It was the first year. I mean, the first year is so crazy because it's every Father's Day, Mother's Day, June 4th through July.

Well, this was close to Christmas. Yeah. That must have been the worst Christmas ever. Weirdly, I was so on edge for it. You know how you raise the defenses before Mother's Day, your birthday?

And that first year is like. Sweeping a minefield. And then after that, I remember taking a breath. I don't know if it was your experience, but after the first year, I was like, okay. I can do that again.

It was like almost a sense of a weight shifting off my shoulders in grief that year. Was that your experience at the year mark? I don't know if it was at the year mark. I mean, I do remember distinctly that I felt as though a weight was on my chest. I mean, a physical weight that seemed to be there for quite a time, and then it just began to lift.

And you know, because it's weird in the early stages of grief. You know, you wonder will I ever be happy again? And then, when you begin to experience happiness, you almost feel bad for being good, like for feeling good. Like, oh, I shouldn't be happy right now. But you know, if we stop and think about Lenya or Christopher.

In heaven, or let's just change the position. Let's just say that you or I were in heaven and our children are down there. Would we want them to live in sadness for the rest of their life? And we'd want them to grieve us. I mean, we want to be remembered.

But at the same time, we would say, live your life, put God first, discover His plan for you. We'll be reunited one day, you know, be happy. And, but it's hard to be happy when you're so sad, isn't it? It's so true. And you know, it's weird is.

to derail and I'll come back to what I was saying, but With my dad's death this last year, we're not at the yearmark yet. The grief has been so different. Tell me how it's different. I naively, when dad died, I thought to myself, as my brothers and sisters were all falling apart, okay, this is their first major meaningful interaction with grief in a real serious way. And I thought to myself, like, I'm a vet.

Like, you know, I've lost a child. You know, losing that dad is going to be sad, but I'm going to feel somewhat like, and man. I called you on a really low moment. I remember calling you like a month in, just being like, I am struggling here. And the grief is different.

And I was like, and it hit me. You can't Have a grief punch card and feel like I'm entitled to my third grief-free because I got, you know what I mean? Like, it's a different person, it's a different grief. Lynn was my daughter, but my dad was, you know, for 42 years of my life, I always had a dad. I had him every day to text, had him every day to call.

He showed up at everything. He was a very great dad. And I knew he was dying from the pancreatic cancer, but the Mayo Clinic told us we had a year or two more. Yeah. So when he did die, and I never got to say goodbye because he turned so quickly, you know.

And It just caught me off guard. I think the difference of the grief. Was partially, I expected it to be less severe. And it was really challenging. It has been really challenging.

I've multiple times called him. And then we would remember, you know, he was in heaven. Oh, really? Yeah, like actually got to the phone call. Or would go to text him and be like, oh my god, because we didn't talk every day.

So, I mean, sorry, we talked every day, but I didn't see him every day.

So I would just go to, like, oh, it's been a couple of days. I need to give dad a call and be like, oh, wait. And then I would hit me again. But all that to say, with Lenya, When when she got to give those people her eye tissues, we Had the revelation, I think, that Ephesians talks about, which is that the eyes of your understanding would be enlightened. Paul prayed for the church at Ephesus.

And so we started to see connections between the pain we were facing and what God wants to do inside of our eyes and the metaphor of things that are, you know, the song puts it this way: may the things of this world grow strangely dim. And almost this far-sightedness, near-sightedness.

So I did all this research on lions and figured out how their eyes work and kind of wrote this book comparing our eyes to Jesus' eyes and use her eyes as a metaphor. And what was surprising to me when the book went out, and now it's out, we've sold a lot of copies in, I think, a dozen languages. It's out in now. We have a children's version of it that's done very well, won a bunch of awards. But I would get letters back from people who weren't dealing with the pain of a loss of a child.

They would be dealing with chemo or they lost a job or they got divorced. And then I kind of realized, like you've said before. When you connect with people on pain, it doesn't have to be the exact pain. It can be anything, but they get encouraged by it. Yeah, yeah.

It's been said that success builds walls, failure builds bridges. And I think uh And by that, the idea is that success, oh, I've done this, I accomplished that. People think, yeah, whatever, you know. With failure or tragedy, they go, wow, he's just like me. He knows what I'm going through.

You know, we are, at the end of the day, we're just human. Just because we're called to be pastors doesn't mean we don't have all the emotions that anybody else has. And, and, you know, because I realized when Christopher died, you know, being a preacher didn't give me a leg up. At the end of the day, I was just a father who lost his son. I mean, I'd been the preacher at the pulpit trying to comfort families who'd lost their children so many times, including at your service for Little Annie.

I remember that day like it happened yesterday. It was like a scene from a film because it began to snow. It was cold. It was outdoors. It was just like the most tragic scene from a film.

But at the same time, Glorious because of the hope we have, you know, but it was so vivid. And so I did my best as a pastor to try to comfort you. But one day when you wake up and you're, you know, you're in the front row and you're the parent and you're the one who experienced the loss and you know these things, but what you're going through emotionally, recently, a friend of mine, excuse me, his son. Died unexpectedly. He was running a race.

He was very young. And he collapsed at the finish line. I think he was 23 years old. And so I went to the hospital immediately because one thing I know is when this happens, you need to get to that person as quickly as you can. You don't have to be there with the right words, you just need to be there.

Sometimes it's just the ministry of presence. In fact, often I found less is more. Saying less can do more. And so I was just, I walked into this room where his son was lying on this hospital bed. He was gone.

And his son was a believer and the family was gathered around. And I realized that this horrible thing that I'd gone through, which I wouldn't wish on anybody. Was actually a tool I could now use for the glory of God because as I began my talk to them, I just said hello. I'm friends with Uh, the guy whose son had gone on, and I said, and my name is Greg Laurie, I'm a pastor. And I lost a son 16 years ago, and that was my connection.

And so that's not wasting your pain. It's like, cause I can speak to this from experience. And I think sometimes people will listen to you more because they go, oh, he knows what I'm going through. I think so. And I think you're hungry.

Like, I was hungry to ask you questions and benchmark. And you know what I mean? And even like, it almost tells you. I can do this. I can stay married.

I can stay in ministry. You preach through this. I can too. It almost gave me a template. And I think that's why Paul said, like, follow me like I follow Christ.

And when we see someone who's faced, Any awful tragedy, but has kept on going. We can go, okay, I can see that example and follow it. You know, what I found is it changed me. I hope for the better. I believe it has.

But I think before it happened, When I would hear Someone just lost a child would you call them. I would call them But I would dread it and and I would be happy when the call was over. Or, you know, there was an apprehension about all of it because I felt so ill-equipped to help them. But now, when I hear it, will you call them? I'll say immediately.

I'll call, yeah, I'll do it. Because I know I got to walk in there where others maybe don't want to. And because I know what that's like. And I think that you've been able to do this in amazing ways. What would you say?

has changed in you, in you as a person. And then you, as a leader, spiritual leader, as a pastor Since Lund, you went to be with the Lord. No.

Well, I think what you just said is key. I think one of the things um I've had to learn to do is associate Anytime I use something that she taught me through that experience or um Or even like you mentioned a minute ago, like when I'm happy, I've had to learn to, by kind of reframing it, associate that happiness as being connected to her too. Because I think part of the reason. We don't want to heal because it's true. Like some people stay stuck in their grief and don't want to heal because they feel like the last thing that that person ever gave them was the grief.

And so if they give up sadness, they'll almost lose their connection to their loved one. Interesting.

So. You have to almost tell yourself, like, my healing can connect me to her too. Not just her in my future, but also, like, this healing is, this healed grief connects me to her.

So I can honor her by being happy. Or, like you said, to your point, when I talk to someone or share something from that experience, because people always say, like, oh, I'm sorry for asking about Lenya, or like, they don't want to bring it up in an interview. I'm sure it's the same thing with you. Like, they almost feel bad. And it's like, no, no, let me.

I associate that as like me as her dad stewarding her legacy. You don't want them to be forgotten either. No, I want her to say.

Well, think how many people know Lenya's story. Not that you much rather have your daughter at home to see tonight. But however, she's with the Lord, but it's great you can remember her and she can impact people. And in a weird way, we were given the chance, like you and I both. We should die and our and Christopher, Jonathan and Christopher and Livy and Linya, they should be telling our story like my father, my grandfather.

That's how it should be. For whatever reason, God and his sovereignty allowed it to be this way. We get to steward their legacies. And so I'm not going to miss that opportunity. And I can do it with happiness, not just sadness in my heart.

Like I can genuinely be happy. But as a leader, I think there's greater empathy. I think the brokenness from the pain has brought me down to the dust, man. I mean, I've been in the place where, like, like Job says, like, I'm licking the floor of Sheol, you know? And I feel like that grounds you in a different way, that humbles you in a different way.

And so I think it's changed everything about my leadership for sure. What would you say to somebody maybe that just heard the worst news imaginable and they're wondering, how am I going to survive this? You remember what that was like for you? What would you say to them? One thing my counselor has helped me to see with this new recent grief is with my dad that really helped me was he said, make sure you differentiate the grief, okay?

So grief feels like a big bag of laundry. Yeah. And it feels a mountain of laundry to do. And that's almost overwhelming. I can't even do this laundry.

But he said, what do you do? You first thing you do is you go whites, coloreds, darks. You sort it. And then the piles get smaller.

So he said, okay, with your dad, immediately sort the grief out because it feels like a monstrous pile of grief.

So instead you go, what am I not grieving? What am I not grieving?

Okay. I'm not grieving all the memories of my dad. I get to keep those forever.

Okay, let's put those in a different pile because you're not actually grieving those. And then cherish those memories and the lessons you learn from them.

Okay. Second pile. What has also not been taken away is your future with your father. Lynny, Christopher, my dad, they're in heaven.

Okay. Well, I'm not grieving that because I'm looking forward to it.

Okay. Well, what are you grieving?

Okay. I can't call him today. I can't have ice cream with him or invite him to my daughter's graduation.

Okay, grieve that. But now you're grieving a much smaller pile.

So I would say to someone grieving, of course. First of all, I would hug him and say, I'm so sorry, and ask him about that person and want to hear all that. But that would be my advice: differentiate the grief. Yeah, that's a good distinction.

Well, thank God we have hope. And thank God that our children are not just a part of our past, they're also a part of our future. And your father, of course. And my mother's gone on to be with the Lord. And, you know, when she died, you know, I felt deep grief.

I think I felt deep grief over not being the best son. You know, like I thought I could have been a better son to her. Of course, she could have been a better mother to me. You know, we can only do our part. And, you know, that was a tremendous loss.

It's hard to so hard to lose people, but they're not really lost if we know where they are. And did it bug you like. With my dad, I'm starting to warm to it now. But at first, when my dad died, everybody was writing me these letters and saying, Hey. She's he's Willinya now.

He's within you. And for whatever reason, like in the moment, it was like, ah, like, it drove me crazy. And now I'm, I'm, of course, I do believe that. I'm excited about that. But it's funny.

You have to On your own pace, come to these things. Does that make sense? 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, for instance, Do we believe Romans 8, 28 is true? Of course we do. Is that the best verse to quote to someone who just lost a child? Probably not. You know, maybe you save that one for a little bit later.

All things work together for good to those that love God and are the called according to his purpose. And maybe the Lord let this happen to your son so these people would come to the Lord as a service. Hey, guess what? God could have saved those people at his service or however he chose.

So I don't like to always put a cause and effect. I think it's sometimes there's tragedy. And I don't have to say, well, good will come out of the tragedy. I don't think Romans 8:28 means good always comes out of bad. I think what it means is bad things happen, but despite that bad thing happening, God will produce ultimate good in your life.

You know, and so, but there are just things that, like, I'll always see the death of my son as a tragedy. I'll never say, well, good things have come. But actually, now, having said that, good things have come as a result. You know, kind of a... Iron entered my soul of sorts, where I was willing to do things I wasn't willing to do before.

It changed my outlook on life, it changed my view of eternity, made me more aware of it. Of course, now I'm 72, I should be. But you know, a lot of people are just oblivious, they don't ever think of the afterlife. And I think that's something that should influence us constantly. But let's shift gears and talk about your family because you have a beautiful family.

You have a wonderful wife. When did you meet Jenny? We met when she was in a missions internship, and I was a youth pastor at Calvary Albuquerque.

So, what age are you? We were both 19. Oh, my. 20. Yeah.

And then you got married how much longer after that? I was 23. She was 24.

Okay. And then, or 22, 23. And then we planted the church not too long after that. Yeah. We were very young.

Yeah. And how many children do you have? Five all together. Yes.

Four girls and a little boy. And Lennox. Yep.

Lennox, the minority and the sorority. He's the one little dude. Yeah. Yeah. He's seven.

Eldest is 19 of Bible Cross. College. Yeah. And they're such great kids. I mean, when we go out together, we'll get the Lorries and the Leskos together.

And these kids have all grown up together. Literally. Yeah, well, it's your kids and my grandkids and Jonathan, of course. And You have such a close family. You guys have so much fun together.

And Livy is growing up to be, well, she's pretty much a young woman now, but she's actually going to school, isn't she? She's going to Bible college. Yeah, she's focusing on more of the creative marketing that track. But yeah. That's the ultimate.

I think uh Fruit. To not only have your children walk with God, but effectively to want to follow in your footsteps. You know, ministry is not a career choice, it's a calling. But certainly, it is a great blessing when we see that our children, because some kids want to do the very opposite. Like, I want nothing to do with ministry, I want nothing to do with the church, and it's the opposite with your children.

Well, and you don't want to influence it, you don't want to, you know, my dad never steered me or coerced me into it. I think that would have the opposite of effect, probably. Um, but Livia and Daisy both, there was a ministry night at our youth conference, we do a movement conference, and the speaker said, You know, come to the front if you feel a call to ministry in some way. And I looked up and saw Daisy and Livy at the altar, and it's like just hot tears, you know, weeping. Um, and I remember making a similar kind of response to that, and I just love that.

Who am I who will I send who will go for us? Isaiah 6. And to see them both, and we've just tried to just hey, praise God, you know, whatever it looks like. Clover is different. Clover says, I call her Chloe, Chloe, yeah, Clover says she wants to work at Disney, she wants to work at Disneyland, go to Biola, she's got this whole thing worked out, business plan, you know, and we're like, great.

She can pay the bills. Hopefully, you can tithe on what you're doing for the rest of us.

Well, you know, as John wrote, I have no greater joy than to know my children walk in truth. You know, one of the cool things, Levi, I see with you is you're always learning. You know, you're always reading, you're always discovering new things. You have so much wisdom, I think, beyond your years, actually, but you're always growing in your spiritual life. But but your marriage, I think, is so strong, and it's such a great example.

How long have you and Jenny been married? 20 years this year. Yeah. What what would you say to somebody maybe that's newly married? Like, here are a couple of things you need to always keep in mind if you want your marriage to be strong.

Yeah. You think about your connection and Um, the question, we have we have a marriage counselor and they would always talk about hydration. Like you have to be hydrated. Yeah. And your bond, your relational bond, has to stay hydrated.

Yeah. And when it gets dehydrated, it's like when you need lotion on your skin, you know, so I think. The language, that helps, that helps because you can think about when you're thirsty. You can think about when someone's dehydrated.

So, like, thinking about the vibe, you and Kathy have such a fun jovialness. Like, and when a relationship is unhealthy, that's the first thing that goes. Wow. There's not laughing. There's not joking around.

There's not the inside jokes, you know?

So I think for Jenny and I, we try and keep it to where there's that sense of hydration of our relationship. What hydrates you? Of course, it's date nights. It's, you know, empathy, vulnerability, you know, telling each other what you're, what you're going through, what you're learning in your quiet time, all those things. I mean, it's just the simple, consistent things over time.

I heard one pastor one time say that if you want a relationship that's great, you have to spend at least 30 minutes a day, which is not that much, right? At least a day a month, at least a weekend away every quarter. And then hopefully over the course of the year, those things multiplied out. That's great. You know, you're getting that time together.

You have to be intentional. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to be intentional. I mean, intimacy is into me, you see. And so, when you stop telling the other person what you're going through, I like that.

We go back, what was that? Intimacy. Intimacy is into me, you see. That's interesting.

So, it's being open, you know, and being here. Here's what I'm going through. There's that great scene in the Bruce Willis movie, Sixth Sense, where he says, I knew we weren't going to make it. You see dead people? Yeah.

No, not that scene. No, he said, He said, No, sorry, it's the one with the Em Night Shamalon, the unbroken one, where he's like a superhero. I don't know. He survived a train accident. Anyhow, their marriage breaks up.

Bruce Willis and his wife, they get divorced in the movie. And she says, When did you know we weren't going to make it through this? And he said, I had a bad dream, but I didn't wake you up to tell you about it. Oh, wow. And so the whole movie goes on.

And the last scene of the movie, spoiler alert, is he wakes her up in bed and says, Hey, I had a bad dream. And so he's just being honest: like, here's what I'm going through. I think there's something to that. Right. To be honest, to forgive quickly.

And then I think collecting inside jokes. Like, I think for Jenny and I, There are so many things that can make us laugh till we cry. And I think that's the power in that. Yeah, when you see couples divorced that have been married 30 years, you think all those photographs, all those memories. Oh, now we want to act as though they weren't there.

And so many shared experiences. There's nobody else I can really say. Remember the time back in 1972 when this happened? And the amazing thing is, is our memory, I feel like between Kathy and I, we have one complete brain because I'll remember part of it. She'll remember the other part.

Or even funnier, I'll say, I'll be telling this story and Kathy will interrupt and say, that's not the way it happened. I said, excuse me, you weren't even there. She says, yeah, but you told it differently the first time. It's like the original Greek. And I said, you know, you're right.

But all those shared memories, all that shared life. And then looking at the legacy of your children, and for you in the future, it'll be your grandchildren that you'll see. God's really gifted you as a communicator. I mean, I believe you're extraordinarily gifted to reach people of all ages. You certainly connect with younger people.

I think you always have, but you connect with older people too. You connect, I think, with everyone. You take the Bible. And I don't want to see you contemporize it. I think what you do is you understand it properly.

You're a great student. You take your time to do your exegesis of a text and the background of it, but then you apply it in a very interesting often unexpected way to people. Like when you're Putting a message together, what would you say are some of the things that maybe you do? I don't want you to say you do better than others, but maybe what are some of the distinctives that you think you bring to message preparation? Like, how do you do what you do?

It would be another way of asking. Very good.

Well, I think, thank you. Those are kind words from the master. I didn't mean any of them.

Well, ha ha ha. I think I think that maybe one thing that's unique to me from Because, like you said, look, the meaning of the text doesn't change. The original language, the history, the intent to the audience it was going to, all those things help us figure out what the text means. The text has one meaning, but myriad applications and ways for that to come to life and come to light to people in an unexpected way. I think.

At the end of the day, we're making connections, connections between the Old Testament and the New Testament, between heaven and our world, all, and then people's daily lives. And one of the ways maybe that for me, there's more options for illustrating is like you said, constant reading, constant reading. And then I'm always talking stuff away.

So always going through multiple different books, articles, podcasts. And then I think the missing step is thinking you're going to remember it.

So today in my quiet time, I came across a great quote. I'm going to inventory, put it in my inventory inside Evernote, tag it, take the extra time. Here's how this could be used. Put it in there so that later on it's ready for it. Like I'm listening to this podcast where Kelly Slater says he spends more time doing stretching than strength training because when it comes to joints, either you move it or you lose it.

Oh, wow. And I'm like, okay, wow. There's a sermon title, Move It or Lose It. Yeah, that's good. Why Our Soul Craves Whatever.

You know what I mean? Flexibility. I like that. And then, so now all of a sudden I've got a surfer talking about his knee mobility. His hip mobility.

And I'm talking about our. Have you used that in the sermon yet? I'm writing the sermon right now.

Okay, well, I'm going to preach it tomorrow.

So tell people that think you stole a friend. That's hilarious. I think you are hit. Prove it or lose it. The latest sermon.

What a great title, right?

So now you're like talking, okay, what he's done, surfing, whatever. But the connection is: you know, make sure you use. Your soul's mobility. Right, whatever. The one I'm actually working on is a sermon on prayer.

So that'll be that title.

So it's just constantly socking stuff over. Do you like to preach? Love it. I love listening to preaching. I love writing sermons.

Right. Absolutely. I can tell you what my favorite part of ministry is. And I've said this to pastors. I said, you know, I think I love.

Studying, I do like to study, writing, I like the preparation part, crafting the message, and then delivering it, I love all that. I love it more even than when I started. And I really liked it a lot when I started. I enjoy the whole process. And I see some preachers don't love it.

They're phoning it in, you know, old sermons, sometimes, unfortunately, sermons that aren't theirs at all. And now we've got our, you know, AI. Chat GPT written. Yeah. Yeah, right.

What is it? Grok too, you know. And though these are tools that if you use them properly, can be very helpful, actually. But we don't want them writing everything because I think that, you know, the best definition of preaching I've heard is truth through personality. It has to work its way through you.

You know, it's logic on fire.

So you've got to have the logic, but you've got to have the fire.

Sometimes lots of logic, sound theologically, very organized, no fire. Other times all fire, all emotion, all illustrations, no content.

So I think it's getting both of them in balance. I think you do a great job of that. Thank you. Like culturally, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You were saying something.

I just said, do you like to preach? But you were on a train of thought. I love, I love it. I the same way. Although, I think for me, the unexpected addition was writing.

Yes.

And you're really good at that too. Thank you. And it's really different than preaching, isn't it? Very different. And I would say, like, I love preaching more than I've ever loved it.

I love writing more than I've ever loved it. But I don't know. I could see a day where I preached a little less and wrote a little more. Not that I would not preach at all, but I really enjoy that you're getting with a sermon, you're getting 40 minutes with somebody. If they read a book, you know, you're with them for 30 hours.

You can take them on a journey. And the feedback you get from someone who's finished a book is, it's different than someone who just watched a talk. God uses a message to open their eyes in some great way or salvation. It's a great honor. But when you meet someone who's read a book and they hand it to you to sign, it's like dog-eared and their stuff highlighted.

It's beautiful. And I really like the written word. And I like going into that season of writing. When I'm writing in a writing mode, I write every day but Sunday, a thousand words a day until the rough draft's done.

So that's 50 writing words. You need to sit down at a little, like, you told me you have a little like typewriter kind of device to do it. I found this thing called the Traveler by Free Write. Yeah. And I'm not getting paid by them.

I saw it advertised. I thought, I wonder if that's a good idea. It's like a keyboard and it has an e-ink screen. But it's almost like an old school typewriter. Old school typewriter.

Because you can't go online with it. It goes online, but only to store what you've written. Oh, okay.

So it sends it to Dropbox.

So you're getting a backup.

So every day, so I've taken that thing everywhere. I mean, I've written on top of a mountain, you know, and I'll just, it tells you your word count. And I write till I get to a thousand words. If it takes me an hour, if it takes me a thousand, Five hours. I'm going to finish a thousand words today, and I don't edit while I'm writing.

I never think, is this good? Does this make sense? I just write. That's right. And then in a different frame of mind, I'll come back and edit it.

Jerry Seinfeld said, When you personally in a podcast that I listened to him in, he said, When you, it's amazing. You listen to a podcast from Kelly Slater and Jerry Seinfeld.

So that's the secret sauce. That is a little bit, isn't it? Yeah, because you're able to connect that. You have to have this big.

So, bodybuilders say you have to eat big to get big. Yeah. I think preaching and communicating, you have to be taking in a lot. Is that I eat big and get big in my stomach. It's different.

It's the same thing. You're just choosing where you get big. The carbs are empty. But what did Jerry say? He said, when you write, because he famously puts an X on a calendar every day, he writes a joke.

And he writes a joke every day, he never misses.

So he writes a joke every day. It's called the Seinfeld method. You literally put an X on the calendar, did I write today? And he said, when you're writing, you have to treat yourself like you're a kindergartner. You can do it, little, because writing's hard.

We all sit down, we get writers' blogs, we get distracted by the internet, chat, you know, whatever else is going on. But you have to say, like, come on, little boy, you can do it like a kindergarten. But he said, when you edit, you treat yourself like a drill sergeant. Yeah. Oh, what is this crap?

Let's read. Let's see. Oh, what is this garbage? You know, you have to be hard on yourself in the editing room and kind to yourself in the creative process. That's really well said.

And, you know, when I write, I just download in a document. I don't worry about grammar, punctuation, spelling. I just get it down and then I go and deal with it. And it's funny, even after I think a message is done, I've heard John Irwin often quote: I think it's George Lucas who said, a movie is never finished, it's just abandoned. And I feel that way a little bit about a sermon.

Like, I'm always piddling it. You're tinkering with it. Even when I'm giving it, after I've gone through it so many times, I'm editing sometimes on the fly in the pulpit, and I don't even know why I do it because I actually think it was fine. But I just start rearranging it and taking this intro, and I'm moving it back. And that thing at the end, I'm putting it up front.

And I don't even understand. Even after all that, you're driving home thinking, I could have done it better. I could have done it better. It's sick. And then you think, I have to do this again tomorrow.

And I think that's maybe the part that I'm like, I could just write a book a year and send it from my cabin, you know. But I think there's a Immediate return. When you write a book, you're like throwing a message in a bottle into the ocean. You're going to get responses. I mean, my newest book I wrote in 2023.

Yeah. That's just coming out in 2025 out.

So there's years between. I worked two years on that book. I want to come back to your book because I want to talk about that. But the immediacy of the payoff from preaching. You get to watch a real audience react to it that week is all in that.

Well, what I wanted to say to that point is. What I really appreciate about you is you have remained a pastor of a local church. Because sometimes young men will go out and have a certain degree of success and they have a book that does very well and they leave their church and now they just write books.

Now, look, if that's what God's calling them to do, whatever. I'm not here to say that's a good or a bad thing, but I'm here to say this. I think the greatest thing, and I think a very high calling, is being a pastor of a flock. There's an accountability there. It grounds you.

There's a reality. And it's, and, you know, that's very important. And not only do I love to preach, I love to be a pastor. I love to help people. And I know you do too.

You have a real shepherd's heart. And I think that's one of the secrets of your success as well. Because frankly, if you wanted to, you could just go become the roving preacher, speak at all the conferences, have your books that you come out with. And that's fine. But I appreciate the fact that you haven't done that.

But I want to come back to your book. Yeah. Well, I feel I. To your point. He's calling.

fire fire in my bones. God if God believe me, like if if We wouldn't probably have been gone to Montana in the first place. I think it's, we feel a sense of calling, we feel a sense of focus, we feel a sense of this is where we're supposed to be.

Well, you would never say this, I'll say it about you. You've had opportunities to leave Montana. And I don't want to say go to greener pastures. But you could have gone on to much bigger things. You've had really nice opportunities offered to you.

Would you come and be the pastor of this church? And you've turned them all down. You've probably never even shared that with your congregants, have you? I'm not sure for sure not. No, because you're not going to tell them that.

But it'd be like saying to your kids, Yeah, I had a chance to leave your mom and go off and marry this other girl. But here's now, I'm giving a revelation to people that are maybe in your church. Your pastor has had many opportunities to do some pretty big things, and he's chosen to be faithful to the calling that he has with you.

So you should appreciate that about him.

So go to bed, brush your teeth. That's right. So coming back to your newest book that you wrote earlier, but it's coming out now. Tell us the title and what is it about? Yeah, thank you.

It's called Blessed are the Spiraling. And it's about how the chaotic search for killer cover art on it. We're showing it right now. Oh, yeah, yeah. I love it.

A tornado of wildflowers. I love that. Did you come up with that? Our team did. Wow.

Alicia Gregory, she's our lead art director. She's on all my book covers except for so good. Thank you. She's great. I mean, it looks like you went to some professional design firm, which I guess it is, more or less.

Well, Fresh Life Creative is phenomenal. But I think our synergy over the years, we developed. And our publisher, we're so grateful for W Publishing at HarperCollins, has been so grateful for us developing a friendship. And so we have agreements that we get to work with our creative on the process and all that. Blessed are the spirals.

Blessed are the spirals. That seems almost contradictory. Like, if I'm spiraling, how could I be blessed? Yeah, exactly. And Jesus says, Blessed are the more those who mourn.

So, I mean, really, the heart is blessed are you when you're spiraling in the sense that what is spiraling? Yeah, it's the sense of I don't feel grounded. I feel out of control. I feel destabilized. I don't know what's going on.

You felt that way? For sure. See, people might think, well, now, Levi, you've come, you know, you've been a Christian all these years and you've come through the worst tragedies imaginable with your faith intact, with your marriage strong, with your church strong, with everything strong. And you have moments where you would describe yourself as spiraling? Yeah, well, yes, daily.

Paul said, besides the other things that come upon me, the concern for the church, yes, there's all the different. Different things. But the book's about a period when I turned 38. I didn't know what was going on.

Now I know to look back and go, oh. And how old are you now? I'm 42.

Okay. So this is four years ago. You know, now I know to look back and go, I was having a midlife crisis. But in the moment, you just know what's going on. Like, I started having about two in the morning every night these panic attacks where I would just wake up out of a dead sleep, heart racing, sweating.

I didn't understand what's going on.

So. It's scary. I call my doctor. I, you know, called my counselor that I was meeting with. called our board of directors and He was trying to look under every rock, what's going on?

And you know, there was certainly.

Some things that needed to change in my schedule. You know, I was flying 175 flights a year, plus preaching 40 weeks a year at Fresh Life, plus writing books, plus all these other things, raising kids. And I was just, the pace was just too much. You know, and at the same time, I hit the point in life where it's the second half. You know, the average worldwide life expectancy is 72.

Odds great. That's my eighth. Wow, this okay, this podcast just ended. Thank you. You know why?

Because I'm spiraling. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I think it's just there's some. Did you experience that at midlife? Like, was there like a.

Yeah, um. I wouldn't say it was Exactly like you're talking about. But, but I do think there was a phase in my life, I would say it was funny about mid-30s, where I was just questioning where am I going? Like, what am I going to do? Is this it?

Have I, is, is it going to go beyond this? And yeah, so in a, in a way, I would say I've experienced it. And it's all different, but I don't know very many, any, very many people, but men specifically, because that's the kind of person I would have more intimate conversations like this with, that have gotten through 38 to 42 without some serious issue. I was talking to my friend Cody Carnes, writes a lot of songs. He said the same exact thing, that song Firm Foundation that's been sung around the world, came out of him having panic attacks.

And I think there's just something to the second half of life where you go, for me, and I did a lot of this work in reflection. You can just refer to me as. For you, Greg, is a person who's almost dead. Stop it.

So I think for me, I was always the young preacher. Yeah. You know, you and everybody else. I was too, believe it or not. The young pastor, the young pastor.

And I realized I'm not old. but I'm not young, so I'm in transition. And I think transitions are I would beg to differ. I think you're young still. I think when you hit 72, that age you described so eloquently.

It's not the American cause of death, like age, it's worldwide. Yeah. Oh, I feel better. In America, we live longer than the world average. But I was guessing.

Globally. But when I look back on your age, I still think you're young. But go ahead. But when you were my age, you were feeling some of those things.

Well, you are middle-aged, that's true. You felt some of those things. And I think the book is all about just realizing: okay, so here's a framework. Um, when you're young, so much of it's just scale. I want to do all these things for God, I want to do reach every last person.

I want it, and it's not a, I'm not saying this in a negative way, whether it's um, how many people come to your church, how many people listen to you preach, it's it's size, and and part of that is just young men, fire in the belly, entrepreneurial, all of those things. And um, when you are in the second half of life, you can't just be focusing on just pure size, you have to also be thinking significance: who am I investing in? Who are the next leaders I can raise up? It's not just about what I'm out there doing, right? In the old days of like nomadic Indian tribes, you had a better frame of reference in seeing like there was the warriors, there was the elders, there was the sages, you know.

And so, I think it's just gracefully learning to move into seasons. And I've watched you do this, like wanting to pour into young pastors, wanting to develop, wanting to be generous with your influence. And I think that's part of the beauty of the second half of life, right? Is just thinking, it's Not just about how much I'm doing, it's about who I'm opening doors for and helping to reach their full potential, like you're saying, you know, yeah, so.

So, the message of your book is you went through this time where you Like it was something of a midlife crisis, you know, you're wondering where you're going. What has helped you to get through this and helps you to get through this.

Well, I think partially it helped to know that that's not crazy for feeling those things. Right. When I was first going through it, I felt shame. Like I felt like, and weirdly, like there was a period in that. Time where I had apathy.

I didn't know if I wanted to continue to lead. Like the fire kind of was dimming in some regards, just a little bit of everything. Right. And I think navigating my way through that. Figuring out a vision for not just the current season, but the coming season.

Yeah. And making some strategic changes out of that.

So, like, we launched a youth conference because it was me going back to the beginning. What do you call that conference? Movement conference. And you do that pretty much every year now, every year since. The first year was younger people in your home.

This would be something you might want to send them to. Yep.

So we have a conference every summer in Montana called Movement Conference. And we bring in the best speakers and musicians on the earth. I mean, literally, Taya from Hillsong United, Kerry Job, Cody Carnes. We've brought in Elevation Rhythms coming this summer. We bring in.

You know, Louie Giglio and just all these different speakers. We had your grandkids come out to it for the first time. They never had slept in a tent in their lives before. And literally, everything's outside because kids are on their phones, they're indoors. And to be outside in the great outdoors is so good for you.

So the kids camp outside, they hear all the sermons are outside. One year, Christine came to the closing session in the rain. It dumped. Wow. No one moved.

Everyone sat outside like when Jesus was preaching and just heard the Bible taught to them outdoors. Eagles are flying by.

So that was one of the things for me: hey, what can I do that's significant and just about success? And I think it's reaching young people. I got saved at summer camp, paying that forward.

So it's just helping people have a paradigm for the second half of life and get grounded in what they're going through. Because think about it this way: when you go through anything that makes you feel like you're spiraling, it feels like you smacked into a wall. But what if it wasn't a wall? What if it was a stair? Oh, and a chance to take a step up in growth, in walking with Christ, in developing as a person, and hopefully not becoming like Saul.

Because Saul, I think, is a classic midlife crisis gone wrong. Here's this young guy, David. He should be. Pouring oil on that fire of David's zeal. David's never been anything but good to Saul.

And yet, Saul couldn't stand to hear that song sung. David has slain his tens of thousands, but only Saul's only slain his thousands.

Well, if you think about it, they're all Dave. It's all Saul's kingdom.

So a win for David should be a win for Saul. But he didn't see it that way.

So I think the second half of life, it's learning about how to champion those coming after you and be excited about their and pray, may they go further than I've even gone. Like Moses said to Joshua, may all God's children prophesy. Not being insecure, not being threatened, not trying to hold on to everything you've got, because we're going to leave this world anyway. And that's the other thing, too, is in the book, I talk a lot about a vision for what your death is going to look like. Do you know 72% of Americans don't have a will?

Wow. 72%. Why do you keep coming back to the number 72? It makes me nervous. 72%.

This is my age. You told me. Do you have a will? Yes, I do.

So think about this. That means that the majority of people who have kids don't have a plan for who's going to be their guardian if something were to happen for them.

So it's just, we live in denial about death. That's right. That's true. And so in the book, I'm saying this is the one guaranteed thing you're ever going to do is die.

So have a vision for it. Have a plan for it. What can your death look like for the kingdom of God? Wow. Estate planning, prioritizing ministries like Harvest Outreach Ministries in your estate, and having like, my death is going to be like Samson's death.

It's going to do more death, you know, to the enemies of God than my life even did, right? Yes.

So even just kind of asking me want to die more quickly. And just using your death to influence what's in your heart and in your calling. That's right. You know, a closing kind of thought.

Okay, so when you started. How many years ago did you start preaching? Oh man. Oh, I mean I preached my first sermon at fourteen.

Okay. So Looking at what you were facing then and what you're facing now, kind of thinking specifically of young people. What would you say has changed? And what has remained the same? In what young people need to hear and know when you bring the gospel to them or bring the word of God to them, there's not a lot different.

I mean, I think there's nothing new under the sun. Maybe the media. has has brought So much that young people are questioning a little bit of everything. You know, where's the truth in it? What's to be trusted?

I think the attention span of people is either the 20 seconds of a TikTok video or the three hours of a Joe Rogan episode. Isn't it interesting how all these kids have short attention spans, but podcasting, which we're doing right here, long form conversations. And discussions Uh, in lectures and more are so popular. How does that work? Yeah, I think it, like I said, it's either 20 seconds or three hours, but um.

I think there's a greater sense of what can I trust and see in you. You know what I mean? It's less just about you giving an oration, but Do I believe you? Can I sit down and hear from you? Do you understand me?

Do I feel seen? I also think. The biblical illiteracy is so much different from 20, 30 years ago. The sense of, like, hey, you know, you can't just say, as Moses lifted up the serpent, you know, like Jesus. Even Adam and Eve, like, who?

I think you have to take your time to develop these things in a way that can Can make the connections for people going back to my early days at Calvary Chapel. You know, I was a 17-year-old kid. I was a poor student. I watched television a lot. I had a short attention span.

And I go to this church and there was this super electric evangelist, Lonnie Frisbee, that we came for, and he left shortly after that. And then there was just this older man named Chuck Smith who taught the Bible. But I learned to study. I learned to appreciate those things. And I grew up reading the King James Version, not even the New King James, like King James.

It's funny because I still remember verses from 17 years old that I memorized. Because that King James cadence, I beseech ye, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, present yourself. You know, I remember the cadence and it sticks in my memory. But Chuck would always say, people develop an appetite for what you feed them.

So I think there's hope, even though maybe the kids are a blank slate. But you brought up something I thought was really important: authenticity. You know, I think they, because you know, a lot of kids, I think, today, you You know, I think we always think in the church, we have to be super cool, super edgy, and there's a place for that. but I think superathenic Super biblical are more important, but I think that sometimes kids are looking for a father figure. Yeah.

You know, like some, because maybe they didn't have a dad.

So many are coming from broken homes. You know, Jordan Peterson, I did an interview with him, or he actually interviewed me, and he has reached a whole generation of young people, specifically young men, because he calls them. to be responsible. One of the things he's best known for is telling him, make your bed. Like just be responsible.

Be a man. Be masculine.

Well, there's some truth to that. Do you know you're less likely to spend money that you don't have on a credit card on a day where you made your bed? Oh, really? Is that true? It's true.

Yeah. Wow. You make your bed, it's what's called a keystone habit. There was a study that was done where it unlocks better habits all around. Like, okay, so if you get more than five hours of sleep, you're likely to eat fewer calories the next day.

Oh, wow. So it's like there's little funky things. The problem is when I make the bed, my wife remakes it and she says I didn't do it right. But I think you're right. For you having done it.

Yes.

Right. It's the first thing you did. I don't even try now because I know she'll just. What's that Mark Twain quote? He said, if you have to eat a frog, which I don't know what scenario under which you would have to eat a frog, but if you do have to eat a frog, eat it first thing in the morning because then the rest of the day, it's behind you.

And it was the worst thing you had to do all day. And he said, if you have to eat two frogs, which this day is getting really weird, he said, pick the ugliest one and eat it first. The point is, do the difficult thing. I think that's why cold plunging is so powerful. You get in that cold plunging?

I've seen you do it. Yeah. But I've never done it without it. You need to do it. I don't want to.

Mm. See, eat the frog. You've got to eat the frog. But you're right. I think the authenticity is a massive factor.

This is real. And I think with our grief, with the hard things we face, with the honesty and openness of, hey, this is hard. This is terrible at times, but God's in it. And then not being ashamed to preach the word and give the message and here's the truth and don't water it down. I think they don't want to be.

soft-pedaled. I don't think they want, I think they don't want to be coddled. I think they want to be challenged to be called out. And like you said, a fatherless generation does need someone in a place of strength and authority. I think that's part of the reason why Joe Rogan has got the influence he has.

You have these young people looking for someone to point them to jujitsu and archery and all these different things. Look, let's end on a lighter note with some random things. Like what. If you're going to have one last meal, I asked this of my wife and my granddaughter today. If you're going to have one last meal, what would it be?

Oh, wow. Is it which meal? Breakfast, lunch, anything. Just this is your last meal. Man, the coffee's got to be super good.

You like coffee?

So, this is like a random.

So, coffee's going to be a part of the last meal. But, I mean, in and out, double, double animal-style chopped chilies. Nothing wrong with that. Let's go animal-style fries, get that diet lemonade just to make me feel a little bit better. Yeah, that's pretty good choice.

Yeah. What is. What are like two or three of your favorite films? Ooh, I mean, Gladiator 1, Blackhawk Down. Did you see Gladiator 2?

I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. Not as good as one, but good. But it can't be.

It can't be. But what I liked is they tried to continue it and not like redo it. Pedro Pascal's character was amazing. Right. Denzo Washington was a scary man.

He was a scary, scary man. That guy they created. Roman culture. I'm a sucker for it.

So I'm here for it.

So it sounds like you like big, they call it the hero's journey. You like the movies, the big epic stories, you know, where someone overcomes the hardship and prevails. It's hilarious that you said the hero's journey. I have a whole chapter where I unpack the hero's journey and I try and, in the new book, tell people to see themselves as Yoda. Yeah.

Everyone wants to be Luke Skywalker. Oh, wow. But the Force needs Yoda, right?

So if we can see in the second half of life ourselves as Yodas and help people on their hero's journeys, we'll be everything they do is credit to ourselves. And really, it goes back to the origins. Story of the Bible because you look at the life of David. We could say David's like Luke Skywalker, the prophet Samuel's like Yoda. Exactly.

You know, I don't know, is King Saul like Darth Vader? A little bit different, but there's an ability. But how great would it have been if Saul would have been like a Yoda to David? Yeah, right. He never encouraged him.

All the guy ever did was kill your giants, take care of your problems. Bring back bags of foreskins, and you're just going to try and kill the books? Bring back bags of foreskins. I think that should be the title of your next book. Bring back bags of foreskins.

Yeah. But what about wild?

Well, probably have to ask. Is that the wildest? It's in the Bible. Wine. It's a literal verse in the Bible.

That's true. What's the one text in the Bible that you had never preached, and you were like, I can't? Cursed is every man that pisseth against the wall. Dude, I preached the text about Onan, how God smote him, you know, in Genesis. Yeah.

That's a wild text. Yeah. I was doing a thing on Jesus' genealogy, and I was like, I had never preached that before. What is your. I know you've had bloopers on the pulpit.

I had one recently. I did one a long time ago. Instead of diary, fiery darts of the wicked one, I said diary farts.

Okay, that was a long time ago. Once when I was supposed to say, let's pray, I ended the sermon, let's pray. I said, let's pee. But this is recent. I was preaching on David, your favorite character, and your favorite story, because it was about Bathsheba.

And I said, The Bible says Bathsheba was a woman of unusual beauty. But instead, I said Bathsheba was a woman of unusual booty.

So that's my newest. You blur your words, you say it where you accidentally say a word you don't mean to say. The New Living Translation of 2 Corinthians 4 says Fix your gaze on things that cannot be seen. And I think I had been saying it like, hey, like, you have to fix your gays. You have to fix your gays.

And my wife was like, what are you, like, what's wrong with the gays? Why do they need to be fixed? Like, she's just saying, like, the way it came out was like, I would say, like, fix your gays. If you have a gay, fix it, you know, like, fix your gay. The wife will always tell you what no one else will tell you.

Is that not true? Yeah. Or she'd be like, you, you got that wrong. Like, you transposed a thing, you know, whatever. You don't even know what you're saying.

You'll think that was really great. Then you'll find out you'd made some mistake. You kept saying whatever instead of Absalom, you know, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. So, and the title of it is. Blessed are the spiraling. Yes.

And that's probably going to be an audiobook, too. It's all done. And that's really fun. I did that myself and then did a bonus, like, hour-long QA about the process. Oh, I like that.

We had an early reader group and they submitted questions. And so that's on the audio book too. Excellent idea. And also, it was fun. Like, do you do this, like riffing a little bit on the audiobook?

So I would not just do the dry read of the manuscript, but I. I would also like to give background behind-the-scenes information that maybe the audio book listener might possibly be. Yeah, no, I can't just read. I always start ad-libbing, and you know, I have to because when you, you know, when you speak, there's a certain way that one speaks and a certain way that one reads. I mean, when it's written, you read it, but then when you say it, it just feels different.

And I have to say it the way I say it. I don't know if that probably made no sense what I just said. But, you know, every form of communication has its own. Interesting nuances, and I don't always know what I'm doing exactly, but I just know. No, I can't do it this way.

I have to do it that way. When I was doing the audio, because everyone fast-forwards audiobooks, they like do it at double speed or whatever, right? Yeah. So when I did the Last Supper on the Moon audiobook, I was like, you're probably listening to this at 2.0 speed.

So to mess with you, I'm going to say the next chapter at 2.

So I like really slow down, you know, the next two paragraphs just to mess with them. Yeah, that's pretty good.

Well, you know, I just pray you keep doing what you're doing, and I know God has great plans for you in your future. And I love that verse, Jeremiah 29:11. In fact, coming back to my son Christopher. You know, I had it inscribed on my watch that I gave to him, that he was wearing when he went to be with the Lord. And as you know, Jeremiah 29:11, the Lord says, I know the thoughts that I think towards you, says the Lord.

Ah, thoughts of peace and not of evil to give you a future and a hope. And I remember when I read that After he died, they give me a plastic bag. and in a plastic bag is his wallet, his car keys, And this watch is, you know, and I just couldn't believe this is all I have of. From him. And I look at that watch and I flipped it over and saw that inscription.

And I thought, to be honest, I said, well, where's the future and the hope? And I thought, well, the future and the hope ultimately is heaven, right? But there's a future and a hope in this life, too. And I like that verse that says, the lines have fallen in Pleasant places. That's kind of King James, but I like the way that said.

Pleasant places is nice. I like the way that said it. Probably a more modern translation would put it differently. But the idea is that God is ultimately in control. And he is, as we talked about earlier, working all things together for our good and his glory.

And I know that God has wonderful things in store for you. And I just pray he'll continue to bless you and use you. And thanks for your friendship to me, to our family, to both of my sons, and the impact you have had on them. And Pleasure to be your friend. Likewise, always a pleasure, never a chore.

That's one of your sayings. It's a catchphrase. You've been using that for a while. Yeah, yeah. Well, you've meant the world to me.

You've been another father to me, father figure to me. Example. I've loved. Getting access to you, getting to see you up close. You're more impressive up close than you are as a preacher.

And that's saying a lot 'cause you're you can preach too, but you're you're a great friend, you're kind, you're generous. Uh, you've been s you've been a Yoda to me for many a year. Uh, you actually I don't remember this. You used to sign off your emails. I think I called you Obi-Wan Kenobi, and you like called yourself Obese Juan Kenobi.

We would like just make nerdy jokes in our email signatures.

So you've been such a friend for such a long time.

So thank you. Oh, thank you. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to my podcast. Before you go, I wanted to let you know about the important work we're doing here at Harvest. You know, we've had the same goal these last 50 years, which is simply this.

We want to know God and we want to make Him known. And we do that in a lot of ways. Documentary films, animation, radio, television, large-scale evangelistic events, and more. If you want to be a part of what we're doing to fulfill the Great Commission, you can support us with whatever you can give at harvest.org slash donate. Again, that's harvest.org slash donate.

And thanks so much.